Video: Pro cyclist tells drivers: "I am so frightened just to do my job "

flobble wrote:

Posting a plea asking for greater consideration and awareness from drivers,  while earphones are flapping about? Seriously?

I'm absolutely not excusing whatever incident caused her to feel this way, but the picture this paints is of a cyclist who uses earphones while riding and so doesn't give her full attention to her surroundings. That's unfortunate, and distracts from the greater issue.

 

I disagree.

How is a cyclist listening to music on (non noise cancelling) ear buds any different than a driver listening to thier car stereo? Why is one acceptable to you and the other not? Isnt this double standards?

Crampy wrote:

flobble wrote:

Posting a plea asking for greater consideration and awareness from drivers,  while earphones are flapping about? Seriously?

I'm absolutely not excusing whatever incident caused her to feel this way, but the picture this paints is of a cyclist who uses earphones while riding and so doesn't give her full attention to her surroundings. That's unfortunate, and distracts from the greater issue.

 

I disagree.

How is a cyclist listening to music on (non noise cancelling) ear buds any different than a driver listening to thier car stereo? Why is one acceptable to you and the other not? Isnt this double standards?

Massive difference. It's a bit like playing a driving game with a tv screen in front of you and playing one with a VR headset and earphones in. If you've had a go with VR you'll know exactly what I'm on about. There is still a massive disconnect from having your ears essentially channelled into one thing and having music as background noise. You also have 3 mirrors to look around you. It's rare that people will be driving around with music on so loud they won't be able to hear the engine or tyres anymore. 

If I ever bother with earphones, it's only one in the nearside and the other open to traffic noises. I really don't like to be surprised by cars just suddenly coming past. I recently went deaf for a week with a wax problem and cycling felt somewhat different and bit more unsafe when I couldn't hear properly. 

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

Crampy wrote:

flobble wrote:

Posting a plea asking for greater consideration and awareness from drivers,  while earphones are flapping about? Seriously?

I'm absolutely not excusing whatever incident caused her to feel this way, but the picture this paints is of a cyclist who uses earphones while riding and so doesn't give her full attention to her surroundings. That's unfortunate, and distracts from the greater issue.

 

I disagree.

How is a cyclist listening to music on (non noise cancelling) ear buds any different than a driver listening to thier car stereo? Why is one acceptable to you and the other not? Isnt this double standards?

Massive difference. It's a bit like playing a driving game with a tv screen in front of you and playing one with a VR headset and earphones in. If you've had a go with VR you'll know exactly what I'm on about. There is still a massive disconnect from having your ears essentially channelled into one thing and having music as background noise. You also have 3 mirrors to look around you. It's rare that people will be driving around with music on so loud they won't be able to hear the engine or tyres anymore. 

If I ever bother with earphones, it's only one in the nearside and the other open to traffic noises. I really don't like to be surprised by cars just suddenly coming past. I recently went deaf for a week with a wax problem and cycling felt somewhat different and bit more unsafe when I couldn't hear properly. 

Nah. I dont buy it. I have tried riding with both normal and noise cancelling buds and can say with experience that noise cancelling buds are a no no. They disconnect you from the task at hand. Normal buds (like the iPhone ones in the vid) let through noise. Just like in a car with a stereo. 

You can forget the mirror thing too; as a cyclist your head should be on a swivel. Always giving the shoulder check.

The hyper attentiveness that comes with being on a bike and regular buds are no different than driving with a stereo. 

So, do we call for a ban on all car stereos, too?

Crampy wrote:

flobble wrote:

Posting a plea asking for greater consideration and awareness from drivers,  while earphones are flapping about? Seriously?

I'm absolutely not excusing whatever incident caused her to feel this way, but the picture this paints is of a cyclist who uses earphones while riding and so doesn't give her full attention to her surroundings. That's unfortunate, and distracts from the greater issue.

 

I disagree.

How is a cyclist listening to music on (non noise cancelling) ear buds any different than a driver listening to thier car stereo? Why is one acceptable to you and the other not? Isnt this double standards?

Quite simply "surprise factor". 

I've been cycling for 45 years, over 30 of those competetively. A few years ago when Ipods came out, I got one to enjoy music while on early morning training rides. 

In order to hear the music over wind noise I had to have the music loud enough that it cancelled out most other noise. Because of this, trucks or buses could be literally beside me before I was aware of their approach. Cars would pass me before I was aware of their presence. 

I have tried riding with music players a number of times, and I have discarded them, because I am so much less aware of what is going on around me on the road. When I hear a truck or large vehicle approaching from behind I move over as far as possible to the left to give them as much room as possible (For those who want to say I should take the primary: because of the small number of roads in my area I have to spend a lot of time on 2 roads which are major trunk roads. They have one lane in each direction and often no shoulder at all. I'm not about to ride down the centre of a road which traffic travels virtually in convoy at 70 mph on.) With music going I am unable to hear them in time to move over, and as a result would 'jump' (be startled) when they appeared on my shoulder, with the resulting dangerous minor wobble. In a few months of riding with ear buds in I had more close calls and close passes than in many years of riding previously.

It is different because in a car you can't really hear what's going on in the road environment around you anyway, so it doesn't form an integral part of your behavioural environment. 

madcarew wrote:

Crampy wrote:

flobble wrote:

Posting a plea asking for greater consideration and awareness from drivers,  while earphones are flapping about? Seriously?

I'm absolutely not excusing whatever incident caused her to feel this way, but the picture this paints is of a cyclist who uses earphones while riding and so doesn't give her full attention to her surroundings. That's unfortunate, and distracts from the greater issue.

 

I disagree.

How is a cyclist listening to music on (non noise cancelling) ear buds any different than a driver listening to thier car stereo? Why is one acceptable to you and the other not? Isnt this double standards?

Quite simply "surprise factor". 

I've been cycling for 45 years, over 30 of those competetively. A few years ago when Ipods came out, I got one to enjoy music while on early morning training rides. 

In order to hear the music over wind noise I had to have the music loud enough that it cancelled out most other noise. Because of this, trucks or buses could be literally beside me before I was aware of their approach. Cars would pass me before I was aware of their presence. 

I have tried riding with music players a number of times, and I have discarded them, because I am so much less aware of what is going on around me on the road. When I hear a truck or large vehicle approaching from behind I move over as far as possible to the left to give them as much room as possible (For those who want to say I should take the primary: because of the small number of roads in my area I have to spend a lot of time on 2 roads which are major trunk roads. They have one lane in each direction and often no shoulder at all. I'm not about to ride down the centre of a road which traffic travels virtually in convoy at 70 mph on.) With music going I am unable to hear them in time to move over, and as a result would 'jump' (be startled) when they appeared on my shoulder, with the resulting dangerous minor wobble. In a few months of riding with ear buds in I had more close calls and close passes than in many years of riding previously.

It is different because in a car you can't really hear what's going on in the road environment around you anyway, so it doesn't form an integral part of your behavioural environment. 

Im not trying to cause an argument here, but there is a fair bit wrong with what your saying here, imho.

1- just as in a car, the volume should not be so high that it makes the task at hand more difficult.

2- the vehicles overtaking you have a duty of care to pass you leaving a reasonable gap. Their fault, not yours and certainly not your ear buds fault either.

3- unless they were noise cancelling buds, which I find to create too much of a disconnect between me and the riding.

Riding with ear buds is not a crime.

Crampy wrote:

Riding with ear buds is not a crime.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you, however the point being made is that because of some motons out there, hampering your hearing sense in any way does give way to more of the aforementioned 'surprise factor' which I can personally relate to on my infrequent semi rural commute along a fast wide road where, when a close pass does occur (and it does, often, regardless of it being wrong) with headphones it makes me personally jump. The bigger the vehicle the bigger the shock (to me).

It's not right or fair but surprise close passes do happen in the real world, nothing to do with car stereo's which is as useful as helmet debate in this topic. 

peted76 wrote:

Crampy wrote:

Riding with ear buds is not a crime.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you, however the point being made is that because of some motons out there, hampering your hearing sense in any way does give way to more of the aforementioned 'surprise factor' which I can personally relate to on my infrequent semi rural commute along a fast wide road where, when a close pass does occur (and it does, often, regardless of it being wrong) with headphones it makes me personally jump. The bigger the vehicle the bigger the shock (to me).

It's not right or fair but surprise close passes do happen in the real world, nothing to do with car stereo's which is as useful as helmet debate in this topic. 

Pretty sure one of the vids on here that showed a collision looked perhaps like the rider had had a 'surprise' as he appeared to lose control the moment the car started to pass. The closer the pass, the bigger the surprise!

Crampy wrote:

madcarew wrote:

Crampy wrote:

flobble wrote:

Posting a plea asking for greater consideration and awareness from drivers,  while earphones are flapping about? Seriously?

I'm absolutely not excusing whatever incident caused her to feel this way, but the picture this paints is of a cyclist who uses earphones while riding and so doesn't give her full attention to her surroundings. That's unfortunate, and distracts from the greater issue.

 

I disagree.

How is a cyclist listening to music on (non noise cancelling) ear buds any different than a driver listening to thier car stereo? Why is one acceptable to you and the other not? Isnt this double standards?

Quite simply "surprise factor". 

I've been cycling for 45 years, over 30 of those competetively. A few years ago when Ipods came out, I got one to enjoy music while on early morning training rides. 

In order to hear the music over wind noise I had to have the music loud enough that it cancelled out most other noise. Because of this, trucks or buses could be literally beside me before I was aware of their approach. Cars would pass me before I was aware of their presence. 

I have tried riding with music players a number of times, and I have discarded them, because I am so much less aware of what is going on around me on the road. When I hear a truck or large vehicle approaching from behind I move over as far as possible to the left to give them as much room as possible (For those who want to say I should take the primary: because of the small number of roads in my area I have to spend a lot of time on 2 roads which are major trunk roads. They have one lane in each direction and often no shoulder at all. I'm not about to ride down the centre of a road which traffic travels virtually in convoy at 70 mph on.) With music going I am unable to hear them in time to move over, and as a result would 'jump' (be startled) when they appeared on my shoulder, with the resulting dangerous minor wobble. In a few months of riding with ear buds in I had more close calls and close passes than in many years of riding previously.

It is different because in a car you can't really hear what's going on in the road environment around you anyway, so it doesn't form an integral part of your behavioural environment. 

Im not trying to cause an argument here, but there is a fair bit wrong with what your saying here, imho.

1- just as in a car, the volume should not be so high that it makes the task at hand more difficult.

2- the vehicles overtaking you have a duty of care to pass you leaving a reasonable gap. Their fault, not yours and certainly not your ear buds fault either.

3- unless they were noise cancelling buds, which I find to create too much of a disconnect between me and the riding.

Riding with ear buds is not a crime.

I absolutely agree with you. My point on volume  was that to hear the music, the volume needed to be so high to beat the wind noise that it drowned all other noise as well. I do think this is different in a car as they are designed to dampen most environmental noise.

And yes, I agree that the overtaking vehicles have a duty to pass with reasonable space, but this is about maximising your personal riding safety in the meantime until the education programs finally kick in

And no-one has suggested that riding with earbuds is a crime. Many things that affect your personal safety aren't a crime either, but are highly undavisable in many circumstances. 

flobble wrote:

Posting a plea asking for greater consideration and awareness from drivers,  while earphones are flapping about? Seriously?

I'm absolutely not excusing whatever incident caused her to feel this way, but the picture this paints is of a cyclist who uses earphones while riding and so doesn't give her full attention to her surroundings. That's unfortunate, and distracts from the greater issue.

You are part of the problem. You are suggesting that deaf people are not capable of cycling or driving.

What she wears has nothing to do with how people drive.

flobble wrote:

Posting a plea asking for greater consideration and awareness from drivers,  while earphones are flapping about? Seriously?

I'm absolutely not excusing whatever incident caused her to feel this way, but the picture this paints is of a cyclist who uses earphones while riding and so doesn't give her full attention to her surroundings. That's unfortunate, and distracts from the greater issue.

 

I used to be completely against wearing earphones while cycling, under the impression that it would affect my ability to hear my surroundings. However i now wear a single earphone in my right ear connected to my phone as a means to stay in contact with my pregnant wife should the need arise. I have noticed that it stops a large amount of wind noise helping me to hear cars. OK, i don't have music on but if i did i can't see how this would be different to having the radio on in a car. 

So let's not start diverting the attention from the issue at hand.

If someone had jumped out from a bush holding a gun/ knife/ or blunt weapon then threatened Macey, or any other person innocently walking along the roadside, there would be a police investigation to find the offender. Just because she/we are cyclists and the offender is driving a motor vehicle appears to excuse the blatant threatening behaviour. This is wrong.

flobble wrote:

Posting a plea asking for greater consideration and awareness from drivers,  while earphones are flapping about? Seriously?

I'm absolutely not excusing whatever incident caused her to feel this way, but the picture this paints is of a cyclist who uses earphones while riding and so doesn't give her full attention to her surroundings. That's unfortunate, and distracts from the greater issue.

 

This comment is unfortunate and distracts from the greater issue.

HoarseMann wrote:

I had someone try and ram me off the road after overtaking me on a blind bend while I was doing 28mph downhill in a 30mph zone. I caught up and confronted them, to which they said they had tried to knock me off because I was in the middle of the road and should have been by the kerb. Basically a punishment pass because I was taking the primary position.

I only avoided serious injury by braking sharply and swerving, as the road there has no verge and a steep drop onto concrete. Annoyingly the battery on my fly6 had packed up a week before, so I had no evidence to bring a prosecution. It sh1t me up. I’ve only ridden a couple of time in the six months since the incident and now feel very edgy on the bike. I may go back to my MTB roots, but it’s hard as I’m a lifelong rider who used to do a lot of commuting. I also relied on cycling to stay fit. I’ve put on 2 stone since.

I'm sorry for the effect this has had on you. Unfortunately, it seems you've let this driver, and others like them, win.

I had a frightening experience in London yesterday. A bus overtook me so close that, in reactional instinct, i swerved into the bus lane (on our left). Only for the bus to pull in at a bus stop, in the bus lane, the other side of the junction barely 100m further along. He was just stopping as I passed and signalled my displeasure.

In hindsight, I wanted to drag the driver out through his window and see how he liked being so violently threatened, but I probably should have just hit the engine kill switch.

ChrisB200SX wrote:

HoarseMann wrote:

I had someone try and ram me off the road after overtaking me on a blind bend while I was doing 28mph downhill in a 30mph zone. I caught up and confronted them, to which they said they had tried to knock me off because I was in the middle of the road and should have been by the kerb. Basically a punishment pass because I was taking the primary position.

I only avoided serious injury by braking sharply and swerving, as the road there has no verge and a steep drop onto concrete. Annoyingly the battery on my fly6 had packed up a week before, so I had no evidence to bring a prosecution. It sh1t me up. I’ve only ridden a couple of time in the six months since the incident and now feel very edgy on the bike. I may go back to my MTB roots, but it’s hard as I’m a lifelong rider who used to do a lot of commuting. I also relied on cycling to stay fit. I’ve put on 2 stone since.

I'm sorry for the effect this has had on you. Unfortunately, it seems you've let this driver, and others like them, win.

I had a frightening experience in London yesterday. A bus overtook me so close that, in reactional instinct, i swerved into the bus lane (on our left). Only for the bus to pull in at a bus stop, in the bus lane, the other side of the junction barely 100m further along. He was just stopping as I passed and signalled my displeasure.

In hindsight, I wanted to drag the driver out through his window and see how he liked being so violently threatened, but I probably should have just hit the engine kill switch.

Yep, it did shake me up. Whilst I haven’t done much riding since, I’ve spent some time fixing my fly6 camera and buying another two cameras. I don’t want this sort of bullying to beat me. But I’m damned if they’re going to do this unpunished again. So I will muster the strength to get back out on the road, but will do so prepared.

ChrisB200SX wrote:

HoarseMann wrote:

I had someone try and ram me off the road after overtaking me on a blind bend while I was doing 28mph downhill in a 30mph zone. I caught up and confronted them, to which they said they had tried to knock me off because I was in the middle of the road and should have been by the kerb. Basically a punishment pass because I was taking the primary position.

I only avoided serious injury by braking sharply and swerving, as the road there has no verge and a steep drop onto concrete. Annoyingly the battery on my fly6 had packed up a week before, so I had no evidence to bring a prosecution. It sh1t me up. I’ve only ridden a couple of time in the six months since the incident and now feel very edgy on the bike. I may go back to my MTB roots, but it’s hard as I’m a lifelong rider who used to do a lot of commuting. I also relied on cycling to stay fit. I’ve put on 2 stone since.

I'm sorry for the effect this has had on you. Unfortunately, it seems you've let this driver, and others like them, win.

I had a frightening experience in London yesterday. A bus overtook me so close that, in reactional instinct, i swerved into the bus lane (on our left). Only for the bus to pull in at a bus stop, in the bus lane, the other side of the junction barely 100m further along. He was just stopping as I passed and signalled my displeasure.

In hindsight, I wanted to drag the driver out through his window and see how he liked being so violently threatened, but I probably should have just hit the engine kill switch.

No-one "let's them win", it's a case of being mentally battered into submission. Each of us are different, I rode home with a sling on my arm after being offed but refused hospital because plod were going to leave my bike at the scene and the hospital was 16miles away from home, I've had a skip lorry come within inches of dragging me under the wheels but just carry on. Our own lives influence how much tolerence we have and how effected or not we are.

To state what you have is frankly disgusting, attacking a person for being fearful of harm by being bullied off the road and making a choice for themselves is frankly no better than those doing the bullying, well done!

nbrus wrote:

This works for me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJFxt9cL9GU

Give it a go and see how you get on. 

That appears to work! Arm all cyclists, and teachers...and maybe all school children too.

handlebarcam wrote:

Sadly, there are probably punishment-passing members of the take back control crowd who, wherever they are in the world, would rejoice at the thought of a "millennial snowflake" being bullied into giving up their career, if it means avoiding the only injustice they recognize: them having to surrender an ounce of their primacy. That's why I prefer not to give them the satisfaction and, instead of gesticulating futilely at them or posting on Instagram, I have identified a few spots on my commute, away from all houses, where I can scream obscenities into the wind about the state of a society that licenses such people to operate dangerous machinery on the public highway.

Has Farage nicked your pint again?

StraelGuy wrote:

I strongly suspect that so long as the motons are kept happy and tax receipts from fuel keep pouring in, the government couldn't actually give a f**k. It's all greenwash.

If only it were that cyclical. Unfortunately I feel like the powers that be just don’t think cycling is an equivalent mode of transport to a car. They just don’t think that close passes are a real problem. That cycling infrastructure is anything more than something to appease a few wired hippies and middle aged middle class white men. That a bicycle is anything more than a toy. They claim to include it in rules and guidance but see the actual implementation as an expensive waste of time.

Yes, I’m I a bad mood today

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

Asking nicely doesn't work. 

Fear has to change sides.

I think I'm on board with this, main reason being I think a lot of grief dished out to cyclists has had some thought.

*** unscientific anecdata ***:

My wife fairly regularly does the same short training loops as me, but we mainly do them individually because... kids in the house. One of us gets shit from drivers and one of us doesn't.

She's an experienced cyclist and driver, her awareness is spot on, we've been out together plenty of times and I'd say our road behaviour is really similar. On these loops, especially at the times we go out, there really isn't much to put you into confrontation with drivers. On the other hand, I commute into Manchester in addition to training rides. On her own, she gets some sort of shit probably every other ride (what I'd class as 'shit' if it happened to me); together, we never have; on my own, I get something similar maybe a couple of times a year, across about 10 times the mileage that she does.

I'm a few mph quicker... Can't be that, surely?

The only real difference I can think of is that I'll look like a 6-foot lump of rugby player on a bike, often with shaved head/stubble/beard, and she is obviously a half-foot shorter woman, and she rocks the shaved head/stubble combo far less frequently than me.

For various reasons, I don't want to think that drivers will be arses from within metal boxes to women but not blokes that they're making some sort of macho judgement about, but I'm struggling to think of other plausible explanations.

TL;DR - the depressing theory is that drivers who dish out shit are sexist and prejudiced bullies. Test it out yourself by giving a reverse seater to a bodyguard with a MAC-10.

davel wrote:

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

Asking nicely doesn't work. 

Fear has to change sides.

I think I'm on board with this, main reason being I think a lot of grief dished out to cyclists has had some thought. *** unscientific anecdata ***: My wife fairly regularly does the same short training loops as me, but we mainly do them individually because... kids in the house. One of us gets shit from drivers and one of us doesn't. She's an experienced cyclist and driver, her awareness is spot on, we've been out together plenty of times and I'd say our road behaviour is really similar. On these loops, especially at the times we go out, there really isn't much to put you into confrontation with drivers. On the other hand, I commute into Manchester in addition to training rides. On her own, she gets some sort of shit probably every other ride (what I'd class as 'shit' if it happened to me); together, we never have; on my own, I get something similar maybe a couple of times a year, across about 10 times the mileage that she does. I'm a few mph quicker... Can't be that, surely? The only real difference I can think of is that I'll look like a 6-foot lump of rugby player on a bike, often with shaved head/stubble/beard, and she is obviously a half-foot shorter woman, and she rocks the shaved head/stubble combo far less frequently than me. For various reasons, I don't want to think that drivers will be arses from within metal boxes to women but not blokes that they're making some sort of macho judgement about, but I'm struggling to think of other plausible explanations. TL;DR - the depressing theory is that drivers who dish out shit are sexist and prejudiced bullies. Test it out yourself by giving a reverse seater to a bodyguard with a MAC-10.

Dr Ian Walker did some relevant research a few years ago about drivers overtaking cyclists http://drianwalker.com/overtaking/overtakingprobrief.pdf

burtthebike wrote:

Dr Ian Walker did some relevant research a few years ago about drivers overtaking cyclists http://drianwalker.com/overtaking/overtakingprobrief.pdf

I'm not sure of the value of that work. The average passing distance is not particularly important. 99% of drivers are not an issue. It's the 1% that are dangerously close and make stupid overtakes that make me cycle further out in the road.

Also:

"Long vehicles can need to cross into the opposite lane for several seconds to overtake a cyclist. Drivers should be reminded about how they get too close, and cyclists might also better understand how difficult it is for these vehicles to find overtaking opportunities in urban environments."

Surely not my problem. That is those vehicles resonsibility to overtake safely. Wait until there is a safe place to pass, like everyone else. I cannot think of a single time that I have held up a lorry or bus for more than a few seconds, but I can think of plenty of time lorrys and busses have not even slowed, just gone for a pass far too close. If I am holding up traffic then I will stop and let them pass (as per the HWC) but not every time there is a lorry behind me for 2 seconds. I have never seen a lorry or a bus do the same for me when I am driving.

burtthebike wrote:

davel wrote:

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

Asking nicely doesn't work. 

Fear has to change sides.

I think I'm on board with this, main reason being I think a lot of grief dished out to cyclists has had some thought. *** unscientific anecdata ***: My wife fairly regularly does the same short training loops as me, but we mainly do them individually because... kids in the house. One of us gets shit from drivers and one of us doesn't. She's an experienced cyclist and driver, her awareness is spot on, we've been out together plenty of times and I'd say our road behaviour is really similar. On these loops, especially at the times we go out, there really isn't much to put you into confrontation with drivers. On the other hand, I commute into Manchester in addition to training rides. On her own, she gets some sort of shit probably every other ride (what I'd class as 'shit' if it happened to me); together, we never have; on my own, I get something similar maybe a couple of times a year, across about 10 times the mileage that she does. I'm a few mph quicker... Can't be that, surely? The only real difference I can think of is that I'll look like a 6-foot lump of rugby player on a bike, often with shaved head/stubble/beard, and she is obviously a half-foot shorter woman, and she rocks the shaved head/stubble combo far less frequently than me. For various reasons, I don't want to think that drivers will be arses from within metal boxes to women but not blokes that they're making some sort of macho judgement about, but I'm struggling to think of other plausible explanations. TL;DR - the depressing theory is that drivers who dish out shit are sexist and prejudiced bullies. Test it out yourself by giving a reverse seater to a bodyguard with a MAC-10.

Dr Ian Walker did some relevant research a few years ago about drivers overtaking cyclists http://drianwalker.com/overtaking/overtakingprobrief.pdf

Yeah, I know about the wig thing, which suggests that driver behaviour is influenced by the cyclist's appearance from the rear. The result runs counter to my/missus's experience, which also suggests there's a hierarchy, but in our case the woman is more likely to get shit/close-passed than the bloke.

Walker's conclusion assumes he looked like a woman from the back. If he didn't, and looked a bloke in a long wig, then the influence could have been along the lines of 'WTF - I'll give that a wide berth' as opposed to 'that's a lady - better give more room'. I'm happy twisting it that way to fit my dodgy hypothesis.

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

Fear has to change sides.

This.  We're scared by drivers.  Drivers are *inconvenienced* by us.

Why aren't drivers scared of cyclists?  Because we cannot hurt them.  Why aren't drivers scared of breaking the law?  Because it does not hurt them.  Why aren't drivers scared of the Police?  Because they never see them.

I'm fast coming around to the view that the only way that drivers will give cyclists the respect we need is if we kill or seriously injure more of them than they do us.  Given that this is almost impossible with a bike, we ought instead to be allowed to carry deadly weapons.  After all, the drivers get one already.

Richard D wrote:

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

Fear has to change sides.

This.  We're scared by drivers.  Drivers are *inconvenienced* by us.

Why aren't drivers scared of cyclists?  Because we cannot hurt them.  Why aren't drivers scared of breaking the law?  Because it does not hurt them.  Why aren't drivers scared of the Police?  Because they never see them.

I'm fast coming around to the view that the only way that drivers will give cyclists the respect we need is if we kill or seriously injure more of them than they do us.  Given that this is almost impossible with a bike, we ought instead to be allowed to carry deadly weapons.  After all, the drivers get one already.

I read this and think LASERS