UCI reviews policy on transgender cyclists after Canadian athlete wins human rights case

Gasman Jim wrote:

Perhaps the answer will be to introduce two additional categories in all events. In addition to the conventional male & female classifications there may also be one for men who have become women and another for women who have become men.

The transgender lobby would never have that, as it would imply that there is a difference between a woman born as such, a woman who was formerly a man and has undergone gender reassignment treatment, and a man who chooses to live as a woman (whatever that means) but has not undergone surgery.

srchar wrote:

Gasman Jim wrote:

Perhaps the answer will be to introduce two additional categories in all events. In addition to the conventional male & female classifications there may also be one for men who have become women and another for women who have become men.

The transgender lobby would never have that, as it would imply that there is a difference between a woman born as such, a woman who was formerly a man and has undergone gender reassignment treatment, and a man who chooses to live as a woman (whatever that means) but has not undergone surgery.

But the very fact that you have to define each one individually and each definition is different kinda indicates that they are not the same thing though, doesnt it?

Crampy wrote:

But the very fact that you have to define each one individually and each definition is different kinda indicates that they are not the same thing though, doesnt it?

Of course - that's why it won't fly. The totalitarianism that marks the more vocal elements of the trans movement will not accept that a man who becomes a woman is different to a woman who has always been a woman.

ashliejay wrote:

people need to realise that going on HRT, it'll change bone density, change fat and muscle distribution, as well as cause them to gain more fat than muscle and make it harder to gain and keep hold of muscle mass and will give transgender women almost no advantage  with the exception of the ability to have a higher VO2 max due to having larger lungs.

 

It definitely isn' that simple.  There is almost no advantage for female>>male, but male>> female has an enormous advantage of growth and development as a male. Muscle mass, twitch speed, the muscle memory and firing patterns developed as a male, efficiency etc remains a massive advantage. For sure a Male>>female will lose much absolute performance, but a very very average male athelete will become an exceptional female athlete (as seen in Caster Semenya, not implying she was a male, but she retains the benefits of male pattern development)

srchar wrote:

There are two places where this ends:

- Professional women's sport is dominated by athletes who were born men.

- The categories "men" and "women" go away and are replaced with "XX" and "XY" categories.

Out of the two, I find the latter far more preferable in sporting terms.

Unfortunately it's not quite that simple.

There are other chromosome combinations for starters.

Then there are those with XY chromosomes who don't have any male characteristics.

I don't think there's a easy answer to this.

Rich_cb wrote:

srchar wrote:

There are two places where this ends:

- Professional women's sport is dominated by athletes who were born men.

- The categories "men" and "women" go away and are replaced with "XX" and "XY" categories.

Out of the two, I find the latter far more preferable in sporting terms.

Unfortunately it's not quite that simple. There are other chromosome combinations for starters. Then there are those with XY chromosomes who don't have any male characteristics. I don't think there's a easy answer to this.

There difinitely isn't an easy answer to this.  You can get someone XX so genetically female, emotionally and socially female but hormonally essentially male, and physically  in many aspects male due to imbalanced responses to hormones in development. It's not a binary equation, it's actually about 3 different sliding scales.

Growing up without the benefit of the male sex hormones has an indelible effect on someone's physical development. I'm a washed up 50 year old occasional club cyclist (but still nationally competitive), but last year I was beating a current 30 yr old female olympian road cyclist. That is the level of male vs female. The best female road cyclist would probably not make a continental level domestique in the men's peloton. However Phillippa York could probaby train for 6 months and go race as a continental domestique. That is the lasting effect of being born and raised with male hormones. 

srchar wrote:

There are two places where this ends:

- Professional women's sport is dominated by athletes who were born men.

- The categories "men" and "women" go away and are replaced with "XX" and "XY" categories.

Out of the two, I find the latter far more preferable in sporting terms.

'xactly

I also DESPISE the transgender people trying to abuse this to get easier victories. This is not "human rights" this is being a shit human being.

muffies wrote:

srchar wrote:

There are two places where this ends:

- Professional women's sport is dominated by athletes who were born men.

- The categories "men" and "women" go away and are replaced with "XX" and "XY" categories.

Out of the two, I find the latter far more preferable in sporting terms.

'xactly

I also DESPISE the transgender people trying to abuse this to get easier victories. This is not "human rights" this is being a shit human being.

Do you have an example of this happening? I've never heard of one.

I've a friend who is transitioning m to f. This is a multi-year process with so many tests and opinions, difficulties and challenges. It takes an immense amount of courage and determination to get through. I don't believe for a second anyone is thinking of sporting advantage when they're going through this, if there even is an advantage - and I think any transgender people reading this would rightly be pretty insulted. Perspective as well - we're talking about a really really small proportion of people who are both transgender and heavily into sport.

On a different note - i think as acceptance and understanding increases, people today are coming forward and being diagnosed much younger than Philippa was. If this is before puberty, they can be given a drugs to delay puberty until theyre old enough to make an informed decision. They can then start hormone therapy and go through puberty in their new gender, meaning that there is far less difference between their bodies and their peers. If we do see more transgender professional athletes, I think they're far more likely to be people like this who transition early. If transitioning later, it would be massively difficult to maintain the focus and single-mindedness - and income - needed to make it as a pro.

madcarew wrote:

Lifting the lid on Pandora's box.... and inside is..... A can of worms!

You say that like it's a bad thing.

don simon wrote:

madcarew wrote:

Lifting the lid on Pandora's box.... and inside is..... A can of worms!

You say that like it's a bad thing.

well, the worms are hermaphroditic!

beezus fufoon wrote:

don simon wrote:

madcarew wrote:

Lifting the lid on Pandora's box.... and inside is..... A can of worms!

You say that like it's a bad thing.

well, the worms are hermaphroditic!

Relevance?

don simon wrote:

beezus fufoon wrote:

don simon wrote:

madcarew wrote:

Lifting the lid on Pandora's box.... and inside is..... A can of worms!

You say that like it's a bad thing.

well, the worms are hermaphroditic!

Relevance?

Well we need to know which pronons to use, for a start.

Crampy wrote:

don simon wrote:

beezus fufoon wrote:

don simon wrote:

madcarew wrote:

Lifting the lid on Pandora's box.... and inside is..... A can of worms!

You say that like it's a bad thing.

well, the worms are hermaphroditic!

Relevance?

Well we need to know which pronons to use, for a start.

I think it's "xe" ("xe came into the room") and "xir" ("xir hair was brown and xir eyes were blue")