Updated: Driver who killed cyclist Brian Dorling at Bow roundabout gets suspended sentence

boo hoo, the hgv driver is upset. who cares! someone is DEAD!

whethere he is remoreseful or not is NOT the point!
he broke the law and someone died, he should server a stronger punishment. it will deter other people killing more cyclists on a regular basis!

maybe others wont care so much!

We all need to look out for each other and actually care. The only thing in the world I take seriously is driving, it requires 100% concentration 100% of the time. If all other road users took the same attitude then I believe we'd all be safer on the road.

"The law needs changing in my view so there is a smaller gap between the two offences. This means that the higher charge would need a lower degree of evidence than at present."

The law at least need changing so that the distinction between the two offences is well defined. At the moment it is an incredibly flimsy distinction that is wide open to interpretation.

The other common complaint is that the "careless" charges are badly named. "Negligent" is often suggested. This isn't something which would affect sentencing of course, but might conceivably play differently in the minds of jurors and might at least diminsh the extent to which bad driving is normalised.

Of course, we could do away with "careless driving" altogether. If careless driving can cause injury and death, it's dangerous. Why not roll the two into a single charge that is at least equivalent in severity to the current dangerous driving charge? At the very least this seems fair where death or injury occurs. You don't get suddenly killed by stuff that isn't dangerous, right?

I'm with Doc on this one. I've been off the bike for 5 months with a knee injury so I get to see a lot more cyclists from the pavement now. The ratio of law-abiding cyclists is anecdotally a lot lower than car drivers from my individual point of view and its very disappointing. But my real concern is the amount of crazy, reckless cycling I see... Quite a few people act like pedestrians rather than full road users and are just asking to be splatted.

On the other hand, I caught myself opening a door to get out at the lights from the passenger seat yesterday and I would have doored any cyclist in the cycle lane. We all just need to think a bit more and drive / ride confidently but defensively. Those who have convinced themselves that not wearing a helmet, or going through red lights is actually defensive, I find ridiculous in my humble opinion.

My thoughts above do not relate to the article. I live about 300m from Bow flyover and it seems perfectly possible to ride defensively on the roundabout underneath and still get killed there, it's no place for a bike because of the unusual turning patterns, and the motor vehicles aren't expecting cyclists to come off or join the a12, where bikes are banned. I only ever go on the flyover, and I ride to the tesco off the on-ramp via a different route. Sorry to all involved in the article.

Please go too the evening standard and read!

Home page headline "No jail for killer driver" is highly inaccurate.

"It is demonstrably safer to cross on a red"

[citation needed]

You're arguing against "perceived tribes" in the same post as you suggest we should have collective responsibilty for people on bikes who jump red lights. Um...

How regrettable that opinion is expressed in such hateful terms, and massive respect is due to the family for their truly forgiving approach to a personal tragedy. To vilify people as some posters have done really achieves very little except possibly causing a divide between perceived "tribes". One of which has very forcefully expressed their views. But wait, could they be included with some traffic I observed last evening?
At the junction of Tottenham Court Road and New Oxford Street, buses, coaches, all struggling to cross junctions, plenty of hooters going, a large tipper going steadily through but looking very menacing to any vulnerable pedestrian or two wheel road users.
In the midst of all this, I watched cyclists. Probably saw 50 or more in 10 minutes, which was good to see. The issue, all but one simply rode through red lights, ignored give ways, swung from a side road (against red) into streams of traffic on Oxford Street. The massive majority of drivers must think these people are mad, and take avoiding action to not hurt another person.
Before the rabting brigade start, we need our own house in order. I don't ind it necessary to rant, don't cross reds on either two whels or four, and those that do should think very carefully before condemning anyone else. It's not "safer" to jump reds. It's utter arrogance and stupidity, and tars all cyclists with the same bruch. The loony lot do us no favours.

Yes, it is a system problem. But the problem is not that it fails vulnerable road users in handing out insufficient punishments to those who kill. The problem is that it fails us in allowing ordinary people to become killers, and for people to die at their hands.

We need to be clear about cause and effect and the way in which death occurs. It is usually because people's bad habits - negligent practices, if you like - just happen to be going on when someone was in the way. Driving a bit fast, cleaning a window while driving, jumping a red light, poking a satnav, overtaking on a bend, having a drink, passing a cyclist with only inches to spare... all potentially fatal.

But we don't punish those unless death or injury occurs.

We need the system to recognise that those are dangerous - not careless, dangerous - acts even if no-one dies.

Calls for imprisonment of killers will do nothing to prevent death.

And surely that must be what we need to achieve.

Debbie, his widow is right in that locking up David Cox, achieves nothing in this case. It does not bring Brian back, it does not undo the error the driver made.

But this is not about this case, it is about making drivers aware of their responsibilities. By letting a driver walk away from court what does it say about the value of life? what does it say about the responsibilty that drivers have to those around them? Allowing him the option to have a licence at a future date (whether he actually wants to drive again is largely irrelevant) again gives a signal. Should the signal be slap on the wrist, or should it be you are not fit to drive as you can not be trusted?

In this case no one wins, but the discussion is not about this case, it is about a system that fails cyclists, horse riders and pedestrians. A system that seems only to care about cars and lorries, that regards deaths as acceptable.

I disagree entirely with the suggestion that "a stiff sentence acts as a deterrance (sic) to others."

People who cause death on the road do not believe it is something that they will cause. Such people do not set out to kill. You can't have a deterrent against an act which someone believes they will not commit.

The idea that the thought of "I'd better be really careful around that cyclist because if I'm not I'm going to jail for five years" would help is utterly ludicrous. If you haven't seen the cyclist, how could you possibly even have that thought?

The problem is that driving standards are low, they slip lower, and we do nothing about that. We do not retest drivers except in the most extreme circumstances, when they probably should have received a lifetime ban. We fine people a paltry and forgettable £100 for using the phone, an act we know is dangerous. We allow people to use hands-free phones, an act we know is equally dangerous. We allow people to operate satnavs (see http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3823515.ece). We allow car manufacturers to produce cars with satnavs that can be reprogrammed whilst the car is in motion and the driver is alone in the vehicle.

Lengthy imprisonment after a death would be revenge. It would not be a deterrent. It would not be rehabilitation (it would be quite the opposite). It would arguably send a message that we take road death seriously, but I would vehemently argue that this is better done with lifetime bans and community service, not to mention some firm words from judges and coroners rather than the appallingly dismissive "there but for the grace of God go I" and victim-blaming rhetoric we so often hear.

Responding to these events by calling for killers to be imprisoned is futile and wildly misses the point.

Respond by demanding measures that prevent people becoming killers.

More: http://www.stewartpratt.com/?p=556

Debbie, his widow, says;

“Putting him in prison is not going to achieve anything.”

Although she has my sympathy she is absolutely wrong about this. A stiff sentence acts as a deterrance to others.

Imagine if, over the years, every tipper driver who killed a cyclist was jailed for 5 years (we're not talking about 1 or 2 drivers here, its dozens). That would send a pretty clear message to other tipper drivers and they'd be a lot more careful.

Had this happened over the years, there's a good chance Brian would still be alive today.

Debbie, you say you have been able to step back and see the bigger picture, but I'm not sure you have. The bigger picture is that cyclists are killed by tipper/skip lorries on a worryingly regular basis. Every loss is tragic, but the bigger picture is that its been happening for years, and unless something changes it will continue to happen in the future.

This bigger picture is that next week it could be me, or someone else on this forum. That's why people on here get emotional about it. They are worried for their own safety.

I have a family too, and I don't want them to go through what you're going through. The driver may well feel guilty and may well never drive again, but that's not a big factor in affecting other people's behaviour.

There are probably hundreds of tipper/skip drivers on the roads of London today. The thoughts going through their minds are probably;

- It was probably the cyclists fault
- It will never happen to me, I'm a good driver
- I'd better get a move on as I need to deliver three loads today or I'm out of pocket

What everyone on a bike (and their families, and their friends) wants to be going through their minds is;

- I'd better be really careful around that cyclist because if I'm not I'm going to jail for five years.

i dont know what the answer is but surely something must be done here!
if a cyclist sped through a green light and hit a pedestrian who shouldnt have been crossing, and killed them what would the punishment be then?

i just dont understand why so much weight is given to drivers.

is it because without roads our economy would come to a stop, so without vehicles we are nothing? is this the only incentive the people at the top have to keep us driving and not give out meaningful punishments?

the fact that the hgv driver is remorseful means nothing.
if i commit murder but regret it after does it get me let off? no! i still go to prison!
he went thru a red light and through his bad driving he ended a life. who cares if he regrets it, he broke the law, killed someone and ruined a family.
bang him up and let it be a message to other people who drive motor vehicles!
until there is a meaningful deterrent why would people bother to take care?!!!

How many of you have never made a mistake when riding or cycling?

The difference between a fatal accident or non injury accident may be a fraction of a second. We don't have a verdict of a driving accident, but we do have careless driving. The punishment now seems to be dependent on the outcome not the act. There is a big difference between an accident through a moment of in attention and deliberately driving in a dangerous or reckless fashion.

“You can see he’s remorseful and see that he’s haunted. He is a broken man, said Debbie Dorling.

In my opinion, this is preferable to slapping someone in prison who isn't remorseful.

I would like to point out a couple of anomalies about this string of communication. The photograph of the roundabout is not where Brian died it is where Ms Treschenko died, also Ms Dorling did not die; my 2 daughters and I are very much still alive. Mr Dorling died. I am appalled by the vitriolic tone to many of these comments I cannot believe that so many opinionated people who are not aware of the facts can be quite so nasty. We met Mr Cox yesterday, my 16 year old daughter told him she didn't hate him because he didn't mean to kill her dad, my son made his peace and I do not hate. We are human we have the ability to rise above and see the bigger picture, well some of us do. My family and I have been through hell and back; Mr Cox is living a constant hell and I would like to hold out my hand and ask him to help RoadPeace along with me promote the "See me Save Me" campaign.............Mr Cox? (I don't know where the "talking on his mobile" came from; because there was no evidence of that in court. Regards Debbie Dorling.

i have been friends with dave cox for over 30 years,and reading what some of you people on here are saying is making my blood boil! dave was a professional and competent driver and to say he ran a red light and murdered the poor man is incredible! it was a tragic accident, read the police report and what was said by the victims widow before you spout anymore venom at a man whose life is finished as well! Try blaming the real villains the TFL and boris bloody johnson!