Is a MECHANICAL 12-speed Shimano 105 groupset coming in 2023 after all?

On old MTBs, I used Microshift replacement shifters to resurrect them economically. Never had any complaints and I thought they felt really nice to use.

Agree - although I am happy with 50/34 I have 11-28 on the rear and would much rather prefer 12-30 (or higher!) 

My Giant Revolt has a 48/31 crank and those couple of notches less are pleasantly noticeable.

As you say, in social riding you are unlikely to be tanking it down hill, it's free cycling, recharging yourself for the next uphill.

I notice that locally there are the cycle club rides where we tend to go for distance (say 50 miles for a "morning ride"), whereas the local mates informal groups will tend towards shorter high speed rides, say 30 miles aiming for 20mph. Those two groups will want different set ups - indeed will prefer different bikes.

time to stock up on cassettes, chains and chainrings then.

IanMSpencer wrote:

Let's go back 10 years. 10 speed met all your needs

And still does, who outside pros and top amateurs really is so accurate in their effort and cadence that they desperately need those two extra cogs? Not me for sure, very happy with my 2014 Ultegra Di2 10sp and hoping I won't be forced into unnecessary upgrades due to lack of spares for a while yet.

I think us feeble amateurs get the benefit when you start having 34 or 36 rear cogs. The pros will fit what suits but we want one cassette which stays on the bike. 10 speed was fine with a triple and a 12/27, but being a bit feeble I find that I've got a pretty narrow torque range so with the wide spread the extra cog does help, it stopped me hunting around on one or two of the gears where I was unable to maintain revs or over-spinning at a cruise which is what happened on my 105 10 speed.

36-ers are dirt cheap on the excellent Sora 9-speed, which I have on the gravel trailer tower and the Halfords Intercity folder

13-28 10 speed cassette one cassette to rule them all 

Even so, 105 is the most widely sold groupset and is fitted to more new bikes than DA and Ultegra and probably any other road groupset on the market. That alone would make it plausible. 

For many, DA and even Ultegra mechanical were too costly and 105 hit a sweetspot in price and performance. being Di2 has made it essentially Ultegra in all but name. Even if they dont make a mechanical groupset above it, they still need that tech to trickle down to Tiagra, Sora etc. They can't and won't just stop developing new components. 105 would just become the top level mechanical groupset. 

Jamminatrix wrote:

NO, there will NOT be a new 12 speed 105 mechanical groupset.  

Eh? Have you read the article? Can you not see the images? You think KHS invented this? 

I doubt that the change from 11 speed mechanical to 12 is a major change. There are probably 3 or 4 parts in the 105 shifter that would need changing, and the rear mech the same, if at all. The crank, cassettes and chain exist.

It really depends whether the accuracy of change for 12 is there on cable. I doubt the one extra gear is too difficult, the amount of pull between shifts is very similar, and might be simply a ratchet change in the shifter, and possibly a slight gearing change in the rear shifter. The minor tooling costs are on the component suppliers, the assembly would be identical to current 105.

Something doesn't add up here. A number of 2023 models aren't even available yet. Not sure about the business logic of bringing out a 105 12-speed mechanical groupset that damages sales of the newly released electronic version (that is probably an understatement). It's far more likely that Tiagra will be made 11-speed, although even that would have an impact. 

But £299 is at a massive discount from MSRP as shops clear old stock. However the price diff between mech 105 disc and Di2 disc is significant even at MSRP.
Will we get a mech 105 or will Tiagra be remodelled in it's place. It's due for a refresh.

To be fair, £299 was what I think I paid for the last 105 groupset I purchased four years ago, so whilst definitely discounted, I don't think that figure is unreflective of its value. 

The MSRP for 105 12 speed is ~£1,750 so significantly more than the sale price too. 

festina wrote:

But £299 is at a massive discount from MSRP as shops clear old stock.

105 mechanical has basically been under £350 for at least three years now (exception being Covid panedmic price spikes when availability did not exist).  They are hardly clearing them out.  Shimano 105 11spd mechanical is still technically in production (for now, until Tiagra becomes 11spd), as Shimano needs to keep some official level of product availability and support for 11spd drivetrains - the 105 mechanical line is serving as that.  Break an 11spd Dura-Ace shifter?  Well 11spd 105 shifter is your replacement.  Need a new 11spd Ultegra cassette for your Ultegra groupset?  Well an 11spd 105 cassette is your replacement.

It's certainly distorted the market there not being a mechanical 105 group available. The problem is that it's seen as an aspirational group, pro tech at amateur prices. Given how good current Tiagra is unless you're racing I don't think you really need to go 105 or higher. The only difference is one sprocket and for most riders it won't make a difference (in fact they'll benefit from easier setup, cheaper replacement parts, and official support for 34T). But then you get reviews complaining about pro level carbon frames being dressed with Tiagra. There's now a big jump from Tiagra to 105 bikes for all those brands selling the same frame throughout their range, and that's a hard sell because it exposes just how much you're paying for Di2. Used to be £100-£200 difference between each of Claris/Sora/Tiagra/105 before a bigger jump for Ultegra and Dura-Ace, now it's £600-£700 extra for 105.

A problem for me is the fact that Tiagra is 10speed, so a definite step back over mechanical 105. On Wiggle Tiagra will set you back over £500. Ouch.

But moreover, this isn't just about 105 not currnetly being available with a mechanical groupset, its about Ultegra not being available with a mechanical groupset. 

A couple of years back, a privateer racer could purchase 11speed mechanical Ultegra for well under a grand. 

Now their only sub grand (actually sub £1250) Shimano choice is 10 speed Tiagra. Nothing between £500 and £1250... nothing arguably in the biggest target budget. Opportunities await for manufacturers willing to step into that market gap. 

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

A problem for me is the fact that Tiagra is 10speed, so a definite step back over mechanical 105.

But one less cog means less weight. Or do you absolutely need a cassette that "goes to eleven"?

Many races have been won on 9 and 10 speed gearing. And why anyone would splash out for Ultegra on an everyday bike when we know the cranks break off after they've seen a bit of bad weather?

And why anyone would splash out for Ultegra on an everyday bike when we know the cranks break off after they've seen a bit of bad weather?

I knew it! HP has hacked your account!

wtjs wrote:

I knew it! HP has hacked your account!

No, but he's complained about it on here enough times that it's now my first thought about when anyone mentions Ultegra - "oh yes, the breaky cranks".

Rendel Harris wrote:

I see your point but actually a 105 11 speed cassette is over 50 g lighter than a Tiagra 10 speed.

WHAT?!!?

Does. Not. Compute.

Just kidding, I'm happy to be corrected on that score. I get by just fine with 9 & 10 speed systems and relieved that 9sp chains are £10 and cassettes £20 at the moment.

9sp chains are £10 and cassettes £20 at the moment

I've just checked back to my last order in October and the 11-36 Acera 9-speed was £28 and each of the 5 PC951 chains was £14. I'm quite happy with those prices and they should get me through 3 1/2 - 4 years, when I might get also away with just replacing the 30 chainring