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Is anti-cycling/anti-cyclist hatred a hate crime?
Lots of the definitions seems to encompass a lot of the anti-cycling posts you see on forums, or read on Facebook/see on Daily Mail comments. I wondered what others opinions were.
Would getting it recognised as a hate crime make it a lot less acceptable to close pass cyclists?
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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- Rendel Harris 2 sec ago
So let water and sweat in from the outside! I'm all for economic solutions and £30 for this case is just daft but not sure your alternative is a...
- Secret_squirrel 7 min 48 sec ago
Nope. Under what law?
- andystow 1 hour 35 min ago
How about some cable management flowers?
- hawkinspeter 1 hour 42 min ago
That's just cheating
- Hirsute 1 hour 46 min ago
Well done to the drivers. If the DISGUSTING COUNCIL can not provide adequate parking, then PARK WHERE EVER.
- David9694 2 hours 19 min ago
Bradford-on-Avon police chase ends in crash https://www.wiltshiretimes.co.uk/news/24914082.bradford-on-avon-police-c...
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Car paint is a good idea, but my previous attempts haven't been good, so I'll leave it to someone that knows what they're doing!
- mdavidford 4 hours 50 min ago
Maybe someone stuck all their stuff to the ceiling.
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27 comments
I 'hate' the concept of a hate crime. We have perfectly good laws in place (or we can make them) without resorting to little more than penalising subjective thought and expression. Let's not worry about calling people names; let's worry about catching and preventing those who cause bodily harm.
It's a tricky issue.
On the one hand, hate crimes depend on the motive of the criminal and thus is akin to a thought-crime.
On the other hand, it can be tricky for vulnerable groups to get sufficient protection from the law. Hate crimes are more difficult to investigate due to the lack of a non-hate motive (e.g. pre-existing argument between victim and attacker) and can be more difficult to prosecute if the juries feel sympathetic with the "hating" of the victim.
Personally, I think that the concept of hate crimes is needed and that cyclists should be considered a vulnerable group.
It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2018/may/11/theyre-out...
I read that article. Surely riding as if they're out to get you (ie. riding defensively) is not the same as actually believing that they're out to get you?
The study was about people's reported paranoia levels rather than their behaviour. So, although cyclists reported lower general paranoia (i.e. trait paranoia), they reported higher paranoia whilst cycling (i.e. state paranoia). In contrast, the underground users reported less paranoia whilst travelling, but had a higher general paranoia.
And yes, riding defensively doesn't necessarily mean that you're feeling frightened.
Much of the anger in the media is aimed at people on bikes riding on the paths, RLJ-ing etc. As readers here will know few 'cyclists' do those things, but they seem to get the majority of the road rage, possibly because they wear lycra, hence the MAMIL term and because they ride two abreast, blocking the road. The whingers tar everyone with the same brush.
A definition of who is hated would be difficult - the lady on Dutch bike going to the shop, the newspaper delivery boy, the kids on their BMXs, or just the MAMILs?
I'd say just the MAMILs.
IIRC a Bristol Post article recently had a comment below it where the commenter said they didn't know what was sadder - the death of the cyclist, or the fact that a 57 year old man (again, IIRC) was riding a bicycle.
Many people think you have to get a car once you're a grown-up, and that bikes are just children's toys. They don't see someone using an efficient form of urban transport, they see some stupid f-ing man(or woman) child riding a kid's toy.
That is the attitude that needs to change (and probably never will...).
But pretending to be Lewis Hamilton is OK?
C'mon - you know that wasn't what I was saying!
On your particular point, I'd blame car adverts - speeding through an empty urban environment with occasional pedestrians but no other cars, buses, etc, or speedign through an empty country road in glorious sunshine. People (some people) think they can do that in real life...
Yep, hate crime. On the basis of the GMP response to the Sophie Lancaster murder case
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Lancaster
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/vic...
Pretty sure the case could be argued that "bloody cyclists" are an alternative group.
Be interesting to hear if any Manchester area cyclists have tried this approach.
@Jimmy Ray Will - I think cyclists are in an unusual position with regards to being hated or being an out-group. From what I can tell, the biggest influence on hating cyclists seems to be the country of residence and usefulness of cycling infrastructure.
When I've been in Europe, there seems to be very little antagonism against cyclists (I might have just been oblivious to it, though) and there seems to be far less of a distinction between someone who cycles and someone who walks/drives/catches a bus. Noticeably, the majority of European cyclists are just commuters who happen to cycle and they are typically wearing ordinary clothes.
The UK, however, seems to delight in making the worst possible cycle infrastructure and repeatedly ignores any kind of standards or policies. As a result of this, the cyclists wearing specialist clothing are more noticeable (except to some drivers apparently) and their exploits are more easily pigeon-holed into a "bloody cyclists blah blah..." rant. These rants then bounce around the echo chambers that form our newspapers and media websites and a lot of people get polarised into directing their anger against cyclists.
The ultimate solution is to improve cycling infrastructure until people just cycle due to convenience and no longer form such a distinctive outgroup.
No. It's usually ignorance. Last time I checked, we still (just about) have free speech in this country, and you can't outlaw an emotion.
By the way, haven't you heard the news? Cycling infrastructure is now hated by both the anti-cycling, pro-congestion lobby AND the oversensitive social "scientists" graduating from places like the LSE: http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/73593/
...but should you control / moderate those looking to control / polarise the emotions in others?
Freedom of speech / incitement... its a fine line.
Hey look, you certainly couldn't publically talk about killing black people the way people are happy to say they'd happily kill a cyclist... so what gives?
Incitement: "Kill all cyclists!". Not incitement: "Bloody cyclists wearing stupid clothes, jumping red lights, causing congestion, no insurance, no road tax!" - seems quite clear to me. And I don't think "people" are happy to say they'd "happily kill a cyclist". It's certainly not something I've read, even when sorting Daily Mail comments by "Best Rated".
Cyclists as a "group" aren't currently dogpiled with people looking to make mileage out of claiming victimhood on our behalf - and I'm quite happy about that.
I don't think this is a given anymore, although there is certainly a polarisation of views, between those who don't see a car as a status symbol - or want their car to project their environmental conciousness (whether the reality of manufacturing LiPo batteries matches the image or not), and those who simply have to have the latest Audi/Merc (painted white, obviously) with a stupid exhaust, driven through residential areas as though the pedals are simple on/off switches.
Attitudes are changing. The politicians are always years behind the curve.
Some comments on my YouTube channel:
Sam Sam 2 weeks ago ·
The Biker should die.. annoying Cunts.. running away all talk then calls the police.. coward.. guess in ur Bike then
Gregor Eisenhorn 2 weeks ago ·
My god the cyclist is truly a little cunt. Wish he'd got battered.
jack duggan 1 month ago ·
Make the bloke in the car right. You can tell that cyclist is the type of cunt who calls the police at any given chance. People laugh but in London cyclists are fucking arseholes who think that the road is all for them. Should of ran the little prick over
Bob Smith 1 month ago ·
Could possibly be the best video I’ve ever seen, could only get bet if the patronising, annoying cunt of a cyclist got severely injured aswell
Ian Macbeth 1 month ago ·
Somebody needs to kick the shit out of this fucking irritating cyclist cunt. I wish the bloke in the car had beat the shit out of the cunt.
I could go on.......
I blame Mr. Bingo.
https://www.designweek.co.uk/issues/may-2013/new-hate-mail-from-mr-bingo/
If you're going to host that sort of thing on your Youtube channel you should make a rule saying that their communications must either be witty, original or so full of hate that they surpass all previous hatred in the hateful annals of hating. Anything but the dull-witted, predictable crap shown.
That paper seems to be decrying Hackney's particular approach to cycling infrastructure i.e. spatial interventions such as filtered permeability, a borough-wide 20 mph speed restriction, and speed humps. It then goes on to make the case that these spatial interventions are raising the profile of privileged, white, male cyclists and thus are not apolitical. Presumably, the paper's author would be happier with dedicated cycle infrastructure.
I'd say it is definitely hate speak, and I'd say that the general media coverage, and the inevitable unmoderated comments ot generates, certainly fuels significant prejudice against cyclists.
If you stop and really think about the angst felt by many of the population towards those on two wheels, it is utterly ridiculous. Totally out of proportion.
You don't get to such a ridiculous position without that angst being fueled by something.
At some point, someone signifcant enough will say 'enough' and call this bullshit out. Unfortunately I fear it will take an escalation in line with the persecution experienced by other minority groups before anything will be done however.
By that I mean cyclists being deliberately and blatantly mowed down and killed with regularlity and inpunity (we are getting close), or other public vigilant activity taking place. i.e. beating cyclists to death or setting them on fire in the streets (we are a stretch from this yet).
I'd also suggest that, as with other minority groups in the past, it will take the cycling community to stand up and recognise itself as an out-group and stop focusing on any bullshit road safety initiatives (which will always fail as long as there are people out there believing it is OK to kill a cyclist for holding them up for 10 secs), and focus solely on calling out the prejudice and associated incitement we are witnessing.
Nothing else matters in my opinion.
I often read some of the comments following cycling related news stories and imagine substituting the word “cyclists” with common racial slurs. It certainly makes it feel like hate speech to me.
I'm split between agreeing with Yorkshire Wallet and thinking that the police seem to need an "incentive" to properly follow through on crimes against cyclists. The law does seem to be stacked against cyclists a lot of the time.
I think we need to move away from all 'hate' crime or it trivialises crime in general. If I punch you in the face randomly and break your teeth should I get a lesser sentence as long as I didn't hate you for some reason first?
Punish the crime ,not the reasoning behind it. We are just too soft on crime in general now.
Targeting hate crime is on the road to thought crime.
I understand your point, but under some circumstances it can be argued that a crime is "worse" if the victim was targeted solely because they are perceived to belong to a certain group. Take close passes, for example. Most instances can be attributed to purely bad driving, but I wager there are many drivers out there who do it because they have a bitter prejudice towards anyone riding a bicycle on the road in front of them.
I seem to remember someone on here suggesting that everybody put cyclist in the relevent box the next time a national census form comes round. Much the same as many years ago people jokingly put jedi warrior in and because so many did this it became a reckonised religion. (although this may be urban myth)
What a great idea! Let's do it. We've 3 years to get organised.
I understand that in the US if enough people form a religion then it gets "recognised" which grants it certain benefits such as tax relief. So there was a social media campaign for people to put it on the census as their religion (probably started by George Lucas).
The UK doesn't have the same system but I remember according to wiki in the 2001 census "in England and Wales 390,127 people stated their religion as Jedi on their census forms, surpassing Sikhism, Judaism, and Buddhism, and making it the fourth largest reported religion in the country." Unfortunately it fell to 176,632 in 2011.
Curse order 66 ...
2011 Censur had a question (41) about how you usually travel to work and bicycle was an option
https://census.ukdataservice.ac.uk/media/50966/2011_england_household.pdf
I was thinking more:
& people put cyclist.
& people put cyclist.