As you’ll hopefully have read in our launch story already, Shimano has celebrated its 105 groupset turning 40 by binning off mechanical shifting and rim brakes in one fell swoop. To some of you that won’t be something to celebrate… but numbers will have been meticulously crunched before this decision was arrived at, and unfortunately you’re probably in the far less lucrative minority.
We discuss this highly-anticipated launch in the podcast segment embedded above, and our conclusions are pretty much along the same lines as what’s written below. I think Tony sums it up the best, and although I was a bit on the fence when we first got the news and discussed/squabbled over it a week or so ago, overall I think this is probably correct: if Shimano thought there was a big enough market for the continuation of a mechanical, rim brake 105 groupset, it would make it.
As we speculate in the chat, if there were any top-down decisions being made by Shimano here it could be that electronic groupsets are actually cheaper to make and easier to work with than mechanical; but that alone wouldn’t have been nearly enough to take a massive gamble if the numbers didn’t stack up. Shimano sells most of its groupsets to bike brands and distributors to be sold on complete bikes, and they are almost certainly reporting that the vast majority of customers want Di2, and disc brakes.
There’s always going to be people who won’t be happy, but there clearly just isn’t enough of them for Shimano to go through the exhaustive process of developing another whole new groupset to serve a much smaller demographic.
Even if this does mark the beginning of the end of phasing out the humble rim brake and mechanical shifting on middling to high-end road bikes, it will likely be many years before parts are no longer available for your rim braked, mechanically-shifting bike if that’s what you currently own. Shimano 105 R7000 will continue to be produced and sold for some time, as are other previous-gen Shimano groupsets, and Shimano would have to fully electrify and disc brake-ify Tiagra, Sora and Claris before you’re left with no mechanical shifting or rim brakes at all. That’s just not going to happen any time soon, and it’s very likely we’ll see at least an updated Tiagra groupset in the next year or two to plug what is now quite a jump between mechanical 10-speed shifting and the new 12-speed, electronic-only 105.
Perhaps I’m a little sad in a symbolic, stubborn kind of way. Shimano has done a thing that even a couple of years ago it said it would never do, and 105 is supposed to be the groupset that all of us can just about afford. If I’d have walked into the bike shop back in 2012 to buy my first carbon road bike on a 50 quid a month direct debit, only to be told I couldn’t even afford one with the third-best components on it off my shop assistant wage, this might have made me think twice about the hobby I was getting myself into.
The truth is most aspiring road cyclists aren’t 22-year-old shop assistants, and the feedback Shimano will have had from the shop floor is that most of us are prepared to pay a bit more for a considerably better performing product. We don’t need Dura-Ace and now we don’t even need Ultegra, because 105 R7100 likely provides pretty much all the bells and whistles for little more than a slight weight penalty. If anything you’re saving money by buying at 105 level, so the bike shop salesperson will say, and you’re still getting all the technology of the top two tiers. It’s an easier sell, and if you can’t stretch to it they will point you to a Tiagra-equipped bike, which they can tell you is at least as good as previous-gen 105 when it’s next updated.
Maybe Shimano has got this one wrong and we’ll all eat our words, but we seriously doubt it. This is what the masses want, and the world’s biggest bicycle component manufacturer (and second-biggest for fishing reels) can probably weather this mini-storm to deliver its best-selling performance groupset of all time.
86 thoughts on “Annoyed that Shimano 105 has ditched mechanical and rim brakes? Here’s why Shimano (probably) doesn’t care”
If you really want to make
If you really want to make yourself weep go and take a gander at what 1200-1500 buys you on a MTB these days. 12 speed manual gears, brand name suspension fork and a decent frame. Given MTB’ings more demanding nature it does make you feel road cycling is a rip off.
https://alpkit.com/collections/sonder-transmitter
I did an upgrade to Deore
I did an upgrade to Deore with an 11-51T cassette – cranks, shifters, mech, chain – for well under £200 less than two years ago
Secret_squirrel wrote:
You can still do the same with road bikes. Boardman with Claris/rim brakes for £575. Boardman with Tiagra/disc brakes for £850.
There are plenty of ways to spend less money on what is still quality, but more and more people want di2/axs etc, hence why the market is being driven that way.
There are plenty of ways to
There are plenty of ways to spend less money on what is still quality
I agree- it’s almost 3 years since I bought new the most useful bike I have ever had for £650. It has a steel frame, but I now think that aluminium alloy is probably best for a ‘gravel bike’. I have the much-praised TRP Spyre cable discs and Sora 9 speed- a great combination. Admittedly the wheels were feeble, but I got over 2 years out of the original rear and its guarantee replacement and the front is still going. Prices have escalated since then, but I still think you get a much better bike for less real-terms money than 40 years ago.
It’s not the disc. It’s not
It’s not the disc. It’s not the electronic. It’s the price. Trickle down my butt
Add in that Shimano are
Add in that Shimano are probably still battling capacity problems so it makes sense for them to concentrate on premium over volume. Campag went premium only some time ago, dropping their cheap and cheerful stuff (and also dropping their maintainable construction in things like shifters), so have a go at them before Shimano.
I don’t trust SRAM design and they are not averse to eye watering pricing for no appreciable benefit (so what if your cassette is manufactured in one piece if the result is a £250 price label), so I don’t see Shimano taking big risks here. I have a mate who has had two SRAM Red chainsets and neither have been reliable.
I have to say maintenance
I have to say maintenance/replacement costs are what really make me think about switching from Shimano. New chain and cassette? That’ll be most of the cost of a 105 mechanical groupset a few years ago please.
That’s supply chain dropping
That’s supply chain dropping the discounts due to shortages rather than Shimano pricing in the main. Chain Reaction used to sell at what I could buy for from Madison (the distributors), so 30-40% discounts. Chains before lockdown were retailing around £20 are now £30.
As for alternatives, looking to SRAM or Campag won’t give you any relief. For lower end stuff, I found SunRace was excellent quality at a lower price point.
Jack Sexty wrote:
[quote Jack Sexty]
Maybe Shimano has got this one wrong and we’ll all eat our words, but we seriously doubt it. This is what the masses want
[/quote]
I’m not sure how we’ll know what the masses want. We can only buy the things that are for sale.
R7000 may go on for a bit, at least until the next Tiagra, but this is a pretty strong signal that mechanical shifting and rim brakes are dead men walking at the middle market level.
Whilst I admit that I’m in the camp of electronic shifting being a solution in need of a problem, the thing that really puts me off is the need for an app to configure the shifting. Smartphone lifecycles are so much shorter than those of groupsets, I worry that a time is coming when you can’t run the app on any phone you can buy, so configuration is impossible. I guess worse could happen if the battery will not hold charge and that type is obsolete.
One of my bikes has a 35 year old drive train. Will that even be possible in 2057?
“I’m not sure how we’ll know
“I’m not sure how we’ll know what the masses want. We can only buy the things that are for sale. “
We might not know what the masses want but I am sure that Shimano do and they can see that there is a need for low(er) cost electronic and disc brake groupsets. Campag continue to make good mechanical groups (if you can get past the number of ranges they seem to bring out and then drop) but their market share is relatively low so unfortunately, the market seems to be new people coming in to the sport being drawn to the latest bling, the real market is not us old timers who want to cling on to old reliable stuff and change little bits of it as necessary.
Tiagra will become the new
Tiagra will become the new mechanical Dura Ace and the groupsets below will all step up a level so I don’t think Shimano is going to totally abandon mechanical any time soon. You just won’t be able to get high-end versions. I suspect Tiagra will turn into current 105 with a few tweaks.
“… electronic groupsets are
“… electronic groupsets are actually cheaper to make…”
And more expensive to buy.
I wonder if Tiagra R6000 will
I wonder if Tiagra R6000 will go 11sp and effectively become the new 105 for mechanical and rim brake bikes? Makes sense given how close 4700 is to R7000 currently.
kil0ran wrote:
They could lump in the chainset from 105 in and rebrand it 105M (or MR for the mechanical rim brake version!).
It feels to me like the door
It feels to me like the door is being left open for some new entrant in the bike component market. A manufacturer of 10 speed mechanical shifting that is swappable from road to gravel to mtb. Single, double or triple ring. Longevity and serviceability over electronics and ever narrower chains. FSA, microshift or Hope? C’mon guys, pander to us old facts who want nice stuff but also get off the electronic designed obsolescence train.
Or we’ll just buy tiagra or grx 400.
Unfortunately Alan, as the
Unfortunately Alan, as the article says, the main market for manufacturers is the big volume bike manufacturers. Who do you really think is going to invest enough money in developing a new mechanical system for a low market share and even if they did, because of the low volume of sales, the price would be very high. Unfortunately the big 3 control what we buy, either now or in the next couple of years as a reluctant “upgrade” as the old stuff dries up.
Microshift already do, and it
Microshift already do, and it’s pretty good stuff. And there are some no-name Chinese knockoffs about too.
As kil0ran says, Microshift
As kil0ran says, Microshift already do most of this stuff and there are various other component manufacturers that do various bits and pieces.
But I think we come back round to “what people want” – whatever the objective differences are, Microshift is generally regarded as inferior and found on budget bikes, rather than being considered worthy of being on a nice bike.
Other component manufactuers go the other way – you can get some very nice mechanical components from botique manufacturers such as Ingrid, but then the cost is comparable to Dura-Ace (and it feels like you’re paying for street cred rather than performance).
Only the gear cable is ‘more
Only the gear cable is ‘more mechanical’ in a mechanical groupset. Electronic or wireless just get rid of the gear cable and replaces it with a battery powered mechanical to electronic system, sends a signal and then converts the electronic signal BACK to mechanical after the signal has travelled a little over 1m, whilst the whole rest of the groupset remains mechanical.
Really, what’s the point? A gear cable takes 5 minutes to install, won’t go flat, won’t go obsolete and costs a few dollars and you can pack a spare if you’re travelling.
“won’t go obsolete”
“won’t go obsolete”
They’ll manage that ere long…
Calc wrote:
That’s not “all” an electronic groupset does, the crucial components are the electric motors that drive the front and rear mechs. I don’t race so the speed of shifting doesn’t matter to me, but the smoothness of electronic shifting is incredible and the self-adjusting nature of the system is invaluable, literally never had to adjust my gears (apart from the automatic spin-through when installing new chains/cassettes) since I got the bike about 40,000 kms ago. If you think a gear cable takes five minutes to install you’ve probably never tried doing one on a fully-internally-routed frame, definitely something I wouldn’t care to try at the roadside. A slightly niche advantage is that if, like me, you have arthritis in your hands it saves a lot of pain on long rides being able to change gear at the tap of a button rather than the push of a lever, you might not think it would make that much difference but it really does.
None of these are deal breakers and I could live without Di2 (and do on my other three bikes), but it does have a point.
Have to agree it is the
Have to agree it is the complaint of someone who has not ridden electronic shifting. Aside from your points, to me, being able to shift the front chain ring reliably under load is a big plus – mistimed changes going into steep hills can be coped with where mechanical will refuse, leaving you with a changed shifter, no change down and wondering whether you can unclip and dismount elegantly without taking the rest of the ride down.
Agree on the difficulty of roadside repairs to gear cables. I’m certainly not a fan of internal routing, but typically Shimano breaks in the hood (Campag will do the same I’ve recently found), and unless you are very lucky it can be a half hour job just to extract the old cable regardless of routing.
Similarly, having ridden disc brakes on the road since 2017, I wouldn’t dream of returning to them, and the running costs are much lower, (and do disc pads cost more if you need SwissStop to get reliable braking?). Currently I am riding Ultegra with some dodgy brand off Amazon at £6 a pair and they are great. Did a gravel ride yesterday on what is essentially a road bike – most likely that single ride would have eaten a set of rim brake pads and consumed a significant amount of rim.
Whether the premium is acceptable is another matter, but the Shimano system is well thought through. To me, it’s a similar comparison to having a modern automatic car – a modern auto gearbox has many subtle and not so subtle advantages over a manual car to the point that anyone arguing otherwise is descending into kiddology or has never driven an automatic over an extended period of time.
Agree regarding ease of
Agree regarding ease of shifting, also benefits people with small hands/short fingers as the lever throw for a front shift is pretty long.
Having run Di2 (6870) for a while and then swapped that bike back to mechanical (mostly Tiagra 4700) it is undoubtedly faster and less fatiguing on longer rides. Not much difference but definitely there for me.
As to ease of maintenance, the whole reason I upgraded that bike to Di2 was because I wasn’t confident about routing cables and setting up shifting manually back then. I swapped it back over concerns about parts availability and price, after damaging the rear mech and having to wait for a couple of weeks for a replacement. When you think a used mechanical mech is typically less than £50 (£25 for a front) there’s a big difference in running costs.
Not sure there’s much of an issue routing inners on an internallly-cable bike, as long as the outer isn’t damaged. I’ve not needed to do it (in fact I’ve never snapped a cable in almost 10 years of riding) but do carry a spare and pretty confident I could do it at the roadside on my bike with internal routing. As others have said the main issue is fishing the end out of the shifter – I carry the magnet from my internal routing kit for that eventuality.
kil0ran wrote:
My difficulty with arthritic hands isn’t shifting but breaking on long or steep descents. My hands lose strength and after a couple of hairy experiences I now avoid descents that may cause difficulty.
I’m a potential customer for electronic breaking!
Kapelmuur wrote:
Have you got mechanical or hydraulic brakes? As a fellow sufferer, though not that bad (yet), although I am generally inclined to rim brakes I have to admit that the hydraulic discs on my commuter are far easier on the hands, to the extent that on my next foray to the Alps I’ll probably rent a hydraulic disc road bike rather than take my own rim brake one, even though it’s beautiful.
I don’t think I would ever risk electronic braking, no matter how many assurances I was given; if Di2 fails, the worst that can happen is you have to walk home, if electronic brakes failed, you could be taken home in a box. Now if somebody could invent a race-weight coaster brake…
Rendel Harris]
The most alarming was with rim breaks, but I now have hydraulic discs and was worryingly uncomfortable the first (and last) time I was on a steep descent.
I guess that I have to accept that age reduces potential for certain types of ride.
Try larger rotors? Try 185s?
Try larger rotors? Try 185s?
I would try the new
I would try the new generation of Shimano hydralics before giving up. GRX and onward (including all the 12 speeds) have a different pivot point and make 1 & 2 finger braking on the hoods a reality, and braking in the drops much much lighter.
As much as I’m bah humbugging about the 105 price rise there are some good incremental improvements in there, albeit GRX is now probably the cheapest place to get them.
Secret_squirrel wrote:
Thanks for your suggestion which I almost missed through embarrassment at the realisation that I spelt ‘brake’ incorrectly.
Calc wrote:
Di2 has an optical position sensor in the derailleur that can measure its position to within a fraction of a millimetre. It always shifts into the right place.
It’s a level of accuracy that even the most well maintained cable mechanical system can’t hope to match.
Horses for courses. People
Horses for courses. People stated the advantages of electronic below. On the other hand if you don’t race / aren’t technical riding, have got less than 9 gears (or a compliant hub…) you don’t need great precision. Especially if you’ve got friction shifters! It’s nice but… As for setup once you’ve done it no big drama. It’s really cheap tech, spares weigh little and you can find them everywhere. The only nuisance for “field” use would be not having a cable cutter – but you can just coil up the excess and gaffer tape!
There are certainly use cases for electronic though. To the “routing” I’d add also “longer bikes” e.g. tandems and some recumbent setups.
1000km battery autonomy? Wtf?
1000km battery autonomy? Wtf? There are bike rides that last longer than that…
So with this, are we definitely in the sunday/cafe racer territory now (where you go for a ride with the bike on your car roof)?
I can’t imagine many of their
I can’t imagine many of their customers go out for a 1,000km bike ride on even a semi regular basis.
That’s about an average
That’s about an average commuting month for me. I can’t see needing to top up a battery on a monthly basis as being a massive chore tbh.
As I said, there are single
As I said, there are single rides longer than that… But you’re right, that’s not the kind of clientele.
Mostly I don’t like the way that the big makers are killing standards and interchangeability.
marmotte27 wrote:
People who ride 1000 km without stopping or coming across somewhere they could charge the battery is a pretty niche market, isn’t it?
Rendel Harris wrote:
People who ride 1000 km without stopping or coming across somewhere they could charge the battery is a pretty niche market, isn’t it?— marmotte27
Perhaps, but there’s a bigger segment doing multi-day rides where power is inconvenient or unreliably available and going Di2 increases the potential complexity of support.
Power can be (partially) mitigated with a power bank, heavy and annoying, but do-able. But if (for example) my right hand brifter packs up half way across South America in the Argentine Pampas, I’m reliant on finding a bike shop with either the tech to unbrick the brifter or a compatible Di2 brifter of some level. Now if I’m lucky that’ll happen next to a shop selling high end bikes, but it’s the EV problem, until the tech (Di2 or EV charging) is ubiquitous, it’s higher risk of being stranded without the approrpriate support. I know I used Argentina as the example, it’s a trip I’ve got planned, but it could just as easily be here in Surrey, there are some shops that I’d trust to deal with Di2, there are others that just couldn’t. If I was touring by bike and had no option of car or “wait for delivery”, it would be really awkward.
Yeah, multi day events in far off places might be smaller than the cafe ride market, but it’s not quite “1000km Strava trace” territory. Until I can assume that every bike shop has Di2 tools, mechnanical 105 will always be easier to get working.
marmotte27 wrote:
To answer your question, no. No we are not in “sunday/cafe” racer territory.
Not sure where you got your 1000Km figure from but Di2 isn’t limited by range, it’s limited by the number of shifts you use.
Loads of people have sucessfully used Di2 for PBP and LEL already, both those rides are over 1000Km. Hydraulic Di2 is much easier on the hands over that sort of distance.
As for what to do if a “brifter” breaks, I think you’d be better off with Di2 because you can just reprogram it with your phone to run both derailleurs from a single shifter. You could use either semi-automatic shifting or reassign spare buttons.
Also worth noting, Di2 parts are pretty interchangable. I have a GRX Di2 rear mech mixed in with an Ultegra groupset and it all works fine.
lio wrote:
To answer your question, no. No we are not in “sunday/cafe” racer territory.
Not sure where you got your 1000Km figure from but Di2 isn’t limited by range, it’s limited by the number of shifts you use.
Loads of people have sucessfully used Di2 for PBP and LEL already, both those rides are over 1000Km. Hydraulic Di2 is much easier on the hands over that sort of distance.
As for what to do if a “brifter” breaks, I think you’d be better off with Di2 because you can just reprogram it with your phone to run both derailleurs from a single shifter. You could use either semi-automatic shifting or reassign spare buttons.
Also worth noting, Di2 parts are pretty interchangable. I have a GRX Di2 rear mech mixed in with an Ultegra groupset and it all works fine.— marmotte27
I’m afraid I remain unconvinced of these sunlit uplands…
Lightweight. Brilliant
Lightweight. Brilliant casette ratios, even a 12-32 with the 16, mechanical and rim brakes. Can be had for 500 odd pounds
Campagnolo Centaur. It works flawlessly and is very, very sturdy.
Tiagra will go 11, it already all works 11 with 105/Ulti levers, done it loads.
Agree re Tiagra going 11. Its
Agree re Tiagra going 11. Its all the same pull ratio now. Aesthetically Claris/Sora/Tiagra all look the same and work the same, it’s just speed and weight that differentiates them. With wide-range cassettes and clutched mechs getting cheaper I can see everything shifting up a speed and triples disappearing from road.
Great point, I see this
Great point, I see this upwards shift in the price of 105 (Di2) as opening the door to Campagnolo to spec more groupsets with OEM’s. Hitting that sweet spot in the 1k to 2k price category for first proper road bike. Think Specialized Allez, Trek Domane AL, Cannondale Synapse etc.
Agree, it really creates
Agree, it really creates space in the market, likely to be filled by the likes of Decathlon. Hopefully it doesn’t create a barrier to entry as someone mentioned yesterday. Equally hopefully, if it makes buyers less snobby about groupset levels that’s also a good thing. Tiagra is really all you need unless you’re racing.
Centaur (2,484 g) is 500g
Campagnolo Centaur (2,484 g) is 500g lighter. Yes, half a kilo !!!
Shimano seem to be happy piling on the pounds (lbs & £); lose-lose for shimano buyers.
ignore your customers at your
ignore your customers at your peril
Quote:
Indeed, they’re kids and teenagers dependent on parental disposable income to get their first even vaguely “race ready” machine. Here we have a £1730 _groupset_ (with existing R7000 105 going for £595 at Wiggle right now), before you’ve even bought a frame and wheels.
This is simply pricing talent out of the sport.
Interestingly, media reported
Interestingly, media reported yesterday that Shimano would continue producing 11 speed mechanical 105, although someone mentioned in a forum that it has been removed from their website today.
TheLonelyOne wrote:
This is simply pricing talent out of the sport.— TheLonelyOne
I’m not sure why people seem to believe that just because a higher tier item exists means that everything below it has suddenly vanished off the face of the earth.
It’s not like the entire bicycle industry has conspired to never again produce anything below 105 Di2. Plenty of companies, including Shimano, will absolutely continue to offer components below that level–you think Shimano doesn’t want to build brand recognition and loyalty with beginners or casual riders, or that the entire industry just wants to forego that part of the market?
If you don’t like the cost of Shimano’s 3rd tier group, buy its excellent 4th tier group. Or buy from another company. Or buy used. Or stop hoarding and just keep using your old stuff. No one’s making anyone do anything.
ejocs wrote:
Pretty sure that’s not what I said…., but anyways, coincidentally no doubt, and in something of a self-own, I’ve just noticed that the £595 R7000 groupset availability at wiggle is: zero, like it’s just…. vanished.
(yes yes, i know, pandemic/brexit/war/supply chain etc)
TheLonelyOne wrote:
In part I was replying to a general attitude rather than to you specifically. But also, you said that the cost of 105 Di2 priced people out of the sport, which implies that they can’t buy something cheaper.
There’s plenty left–https://www.wiggle.co.uk/cube-axial-ws-race-road-bike-2022–just have to buy the whole bike with it.?
ejocs wrote:
That’s cheaper than the new groupset on its own, which is what I’m so disappointed about ?. In a couple of years, what will the be the cost of a “105” bike with a similar frame and wheels?
Bottom line is that all I see is a £1000 price hike, one extra sprocket and a shifting system that makes the human-powered bicycle into something range-limited by batteries.
I’m just a luddite ?♂️
Exactly. People are so hung
Exactly. People are so hung up on the name and lord knows what else. Ignoring the fact that even Tiagra from today is better than the very best stuff from 10-15 years ago for a 10th of the price. Yes this 105 is expensive. Yes its called 105. No that doesn’t matter. Tiagra will probably be 11 speed soon and will get a shadow rear derailleur along with the updated front mech from 105.
People are acting like Shimano won’t update the rest of their lineup to accomodate the new 105 (which they have done repeatedly). They are also acting like you won’t be able to get parts for your existing setups for donkeys years.
I just foolishly upgraded from Tiagra 4700 to a mix of secondhand/new 105, tiagra and dura-ace and the difference in performance isn’t that big. Tiagra is great. The update to Tiagra will make it even better.
Buy what you want and stop whinging. These are the same people who bemoan the high price of bikes and completely ignore the fact you can get very usable bikes for as little money as ever. The cycling media doesn’t cover cheap and cheerful. Its boring. That doesn’t mean its not there and available .
cycling media doesn’t cover
cycling media doesn’t cover cheap and cheerful. Its boring
This is also boring, because I have droned on about it before. Sora 9 speed is really good, especially when linked to TRP Spyre mechanical discs on a gravel bike.
On the plus side, if you fo
On the plus side, if you go into one of the very shiny bike shops looking for a bike with a first-rate frame, cable-operated gears and rim brakes, you’ll find what you’re looking for under a fine coating of dust and with a magnificent discount. I only went in to buy a new sat nav thingy.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the shop, people are in awe to disc brakes, hydaulics, batteries, little electric motors and firmware. As any motorist will tell you, these components never give any trouble in the long run.
Still, if you manage to break your Dura-ace rear mech it will cost you either £150 or £500 to replace. I must be missing something…..
It just seems a little too
It just seems a little too soon to be damning 105 mechanical to the parts bin.. it seems to herald that rim brakes full stop are now on notice…
I’m not sure that any of the
I’m not sure that any of the arguments against 105 Di2 are coming from the right place. For everyone saying that 105 Rim brake is being phased out – it isn’t still – but we have Tiagra rim brake. Tiagra is perfectly good and I don’t think much seperates 105 and Tiagra, having used both groupsets concurrently on two different bikes. I strongly suspect, as do some other posters, that Tiagra is going to move up to 11s and maybe a price point, bringing it up to speed (literally) with current 105.
A bunch of follks and I agree that the only real long-term outcome of this is likely to be that Claris and Sora are made one price point more expensive and gain more drip-down tech from the higher groupsets. However, this might just mean cheaper bikes get better quality shifting and manufacturers don’t have to resort to cheaper parts from third parties (Microshift, Suntour etc.) to make a complete quality groupset.
Pricing has gone pretty wild,
Pricing has gone pretty wild, got a R7020 groupset for £499 in Feb 2020. Seem to remember the Di2 version was just under £1k – whish I’d splashed on that now.
Here’s how I *think* it will
Here’s how I *think* it will pan out. Rim brakes and mechanical shifting are toast, at this level. Over the next few years, demand will continue, and be fulfilled by deadstock retailers, then by a healthy market on eBay. But that demand won’t ever stop – and eventually, someone will make a really good new set of rim brakes, or an up-to-date mechanical groupset. They’ll be niche purchases, initially seen as purely for luddites, and nostalgia-freaks, but they’ll gain a foothold. At that point, manufacturers like Shimano will sit up and take notice. First, they’ll dip their toe back in the water by “reissuing” a “classic” groupset, and once that is snapped up, they’ll run the numbers. If there’s a market (and I think by then, there will be) they’ll be back. As a lifelong skater, I’ve seen exactly the same thing happen to “old-school” components. they were effectively discontinued in the early 90s, but little by little, they crept back. Now, it’s a thriving part of the industry. It’s not a majority of manufacturing, but it’s easily enough to sustain that demand.
“eventually, someone will
“eventually, someone will make a really good new set of rim brakes”
Rene Herse already do.
It’s already happening.
It’s already happening. Microshift for example have a newish 11 speed shifter compatible with Shimano called ‘Centos’. I suspect I’ll be spending my money with them when my present shifters bite the dust.
Not to put you off what you
Not to put you off what you want to buy but why couldn’t someone who wants mechanical for rim brakes and compatible with Shimano just buy Tiagra?
Tiagra a decent groupset and will get all the trickledown from previous mechanical rim-brake Dura Ace, just with a different name.
Yep – same as vinyl and
Yep – same as vinyl and (audio) cassettes. I’ve just dismantled an (R2300?) Claris bike and had to admire the simplicity of it – and how light it was. Everything adjustable on the fly, massive chain that would last for ever, small cassette (11-25 I think), external cable routing, adjust shifter cable tension from the hood, etc etc.
Just another way to fleece us
Just another way to fleece us cyclists out of our hard earned cash. £1700 for a groupset level that only a year or three back you could get for £600! Shame the MAMIL set will keep buying this shitte and parting with said cash.
Nope, it’s £1700 for a
Nope, it’s £1700 for a groupset level called 105 that didn’t didn’t exist at all a year or three back. The groupset level called 105 that you could buy for £600 is being phased out entirely / changing its name to Tiagra.
The fact that they’re both called 105 is arbitrary. The shifters and derailleurs–i.e., the heart of the groupset–are completely different.
No one’s making you buy anything.
Why is it sad, and why do you care?
I thougth they were aluding
I thougth they were aluding to demand pull. So plenty of middle aged folk with disposable income causing price rises or product changes making it more costly for younger, cash stretched folk.
wilkij1975 wrote:
People seem a bit confused about the pricing here, the £1700 price includes full carbon disc wheels, which are £1000 a pair if bought separately. Without wheels but with everything else it’s £730, or £230 more than mechanical, which actually isn’t bad really (provided you believe £500 is reasonable value for the mechanical).
Yup I did..
Yup I did..
Yours truly
SRAM ASX Cash loaded mamil
Honestly, I was initially
Honestly, I was initially annoyed, but now I’m just “meh…”.
I’ve only got one rim/mechanical bike, a Ti framed racer, and I probably wouldn’t buy one again. Much as I love that bike, it inhereted the groupset from the bike it replaced which was bought when I had no preference (frame damage, so everything was moved over) and I probably wouldn’t have built it this way if I didn’t already have the groupset.
At this point I assume it’ll dissappear in stages from 105, Ultegra and eventually Dura-Ace. Unless something more appealing appears from another manufacturer I’ll probably just progressively update it as parts wear out, I’m expecting the bike to outlast me, crashes aside, so it’ll get Ultegra, then Dura Ace, Di2 I can take or leave so it’ll be a cost & availability decision, as will the moving up levels.
It might mean the component levels change over time, but really…. “meh…”
Shimano marketing bosses have
Shimano marketing bosses have correctly concluded that PROFITS are made from pushing bicycle bling to the middle aged with disposable income, most of whom will just ‘race’ their old mates to the next coffee stop. They don’t care a fig that pushing ever more ridiculously expensive and complicated ‘stuff’ will kill the sport for young people with talent. At my club a 15 year old held the 25 mile TT record for YEARS on a secondhand Boardman, 55mins23secs, cost him around £100. How many people buying fancy bikes with Di2 could even break the hour? That, of course, doesn’t concern the bike retail business – or Road CC who are just focused on advertising income and not cycling as an affordable sport for everyone.
Cool story bro
Cool story bro
Middleaged people who’ve
Middleaged people who’ve worked hard for thirty years shouldn’t treat themselves to nice bikes because they can’t do a 25 in under an hour, right…you don’t even sustain your own argument, you state that a young person with talent can do well on a cheap secondhand bike and at the same time say that older people buying expensive bikes are killing the sport for them. That’s contradictory.
In every sport I’ve been involved in as an active particpant older people with disposable income have always had better kit than most young players even if they didn’t have the talent, more expensive cricket bats, tennis racquets, golf clubs, rugby boots, skis…didn’t kill the sports for me, in fact their continual desire to buy the latest kit meant that there were great secondhand bargains to be had.
And of course supports a
And of course supports a competitive industry to supply the demands of everyone, the technological advancement. With trickle down to the lower ranges. There are no downtube shifters at the bottom of any ranges anymore.
I did borrow a bike for a couple of years that had the classic indexed xt thumbies, wonderful, just required a little more thought, and technique.
Speaking of downtube shifters, I was reminded of them a few months back, broke the retaining bit on my rohloff shifter with my last shift, coming into work. Probably tightened a bit more than I should have done, they had changed the parts since the manual was printed, it had lasted a few years. Being rohloff very replaceable. I did try to bodge it for the ride home, even found a cable tie gun but still couldn’t make it work. So on the ride I found if I held the gripshift style shifter in the laft hand, I could change it normally with my right. Which reminded me of the downtube shifters, you had to concentrate a bit more, think about what was coming. Less time in the perfect gear, but none of that unessessary shifting, where you change and then change right back. And more looking ahead, no changing when hauling up the big hill. Or when moving through traffic.
Hear hear.
Hear hear.
Love my Carbon framed Hunt wheeled Sram ASX bike. Cost loads. Does it make me faster….not much but I feel good.
To a new generation of
To a new generation of cyclists, they won’t know or care about bikes that didn’t have electronic shifting or hydraulic disc brakes; a bit like how people can’t imagine living without a mobile phone, which are now so ubiquitous that I can’t access my employer website or my bank account without an SMS confirmation.
Neither of which is a good
Neither of which is a good (as in agreable, convenient, quick, simple, sustainable etc.) thing…
No one needs to be concerned
No one needs to be concerned about security then…
Yeah security, as in selling
Yeah security, as in selling SUVs to people because of the dangers of the road, or ferrying children around in them. You’re totally up there, mate…
What do SUV sales have to do
What do SUV sales have to do with a multi-factor authentication policy?
They illustrate a principle.
They illustrate a principle.
P.S.: In case this needs explaining: create a problem, then sell “solutions” to it, which in turn create new problems etc…
Is this that game non
Is this that game non sequiter ?
Amazed at how quickly the
Amazed at how quickly the blame for the cost of this 105 lays at the door of the Mamil….especially fat ones. Cycling is a particularly broad and inclusive church and sniggering at others because they are fat and have good gear is pretty poor sport.
I agree that not many actually need anything like the level of equipment that we have but when has this ever been about need? If it gets people of their (fat) arses then that’s great. Go to any sportive and have a look at the demographic it has to be 2/3rds middle aged guys and the gear about is unbelievable.That helps to drive innovation and demand that ultimately benefits all.
“Mamils”, “fat”, “fat” “(fat)
“Mamils”, “fat”, “fat” “(fat)”.
Seems you’re fatist yourself. No where in the article was fat mentioned yet you bring it up several times in a few short sentences.
Mmmm really all inclusive!
Um, I think you need to read
Um, I think you need to read emjay49’s comment again. I’m pretty sure they’re saying the exact opposite of what you appear to think they are. They’re responding to certain other commenters, on this and other related articles, who are rather more deserving of your criticism.
I don’t read the hyper-junk
I don’t read the hyper-junk press so I rarely come across this limited intellect ‘mamils, lycra-clad, think they’re in the TdF etc. etc.’ clichéd trolling. However there is one of these Your Neighborhood apps around in N Lancashire and a laughable story appeared from Our Brave Lads about the good work done by Traffic – a division where they appear to shunt off all the officers too dim and idle even for the rest of the Constabulary. In the comments to this LC farrago of lies appeared all the anti-cyclist comments referred to above. They were all there- even down to the traffic jams and ‘no road tax’! I am one person fully aware of the complete inaction of LC traffic over known vehicles with years of No MOT, No Insurance and No VED
DI2 was invented so Shimano
DI2 was invented so Shimano can rook you out of another £250 for a rear mech 18months and 2500 miles after the first one you bought mysteriously fails.-
Not that I’m bitter (much).
18,000 miles on mine. New
18,000 miles on mine. New jockey wheels …and the mysterious broken crank syndrome.