[David9694]

A new catch-all Tea Shop thread for those miscellaneous new stories that don’t quite fit with parking, crashing into buildings or trapped/prisoners in their homes. 

Topic

[David9694]

Mark’s shaving stuff was in

Mark’s shaving stuff was in the van. 

[ktache]

That Audi is almost a match

That Audi is almost a match for the grey of the tarmac.

[mdavidford]

Hirsute wrote:

[quote=Hirsute]Freed at last ! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20z46p0p6jo%5B/quote%5D

Will they be released into a managed enclosure first, to get them used to foraging and the like?

[brooksby]

Hirsute wrote:

Hirsute wrote:

Freed at last ! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20z46p0p6jo%5B/quote%5D

[quote=BBC]

CBRE declined to comment on what caused the car park malfunction and whether owners could claim for financial losses.

[chrisonabike]

David9694 wrote:

David9694 wrote:

Agree re the sheer enormity of the monster that we have created in the form of mass motoring.

I guess the other question * for accident prevention is how the “machine” works.  We could have some (new) body make recommendations but nobody “pick them up”.  Such an initiative might stall because it’s unclear which organisations holds what responsibilities, or they disagree about who should actually *do* something, what exactly they should do and who will pay (I can imagine “no, that part is the council / National Highways / DfT …”).

One for any folks on here in local government / bodies like Sustrans / a part of the system?  I wonder about their thoughts on the feedback loops here.  (I know Chris Boardman has touched on the importance of government “metrics” in guiding “what are we going to build” decisions).

(Am thinking of something like this examination of how organisations work together in the Dutch system to actually actually deliver e.g. safer built environments or even “nicer places”).

* Apart from “can we get anywhere without first challenging the ideas that a) driving is the primary mode of transport we design for, and b) we should fix it so that essentially anyone and everyone should to be able to drive”.

[chrisonabike]

David9694 wrote:

Agree re the sheer enormity of the monster that we have created in the form of mass motoring.  A way of managing a potentially huge collisions investigation caseload might be to restrict it to fatal and Serious injury (hospital inpatient) / life changing cases.

It’s how to see the wood (of infra / rule / organisational issues) for the trees (individual humans going wrong in their unique ways) I guess?  Especially when the current UK default is to (generally) push this down to the level of “yet again, some person did something criminal / stupid / unexpected ergo it’s just on them and no other changes are required”.

I don’t know the details of other people’s road “safe system” organisations – it would be useful to understand that first.

But certainly we should *record* the more “minor” stuff at least.  Ideally in a little more detail and focussed for purposes of understanding safety implications than currently.

That would mean that any more detailed investigation would have a) baselines in the form of rates of incidents in particular situations and b) perhaps a bit of “compare and contrast” detail on specifics.

Maybe a particular location has “never had a death” before but in fact there have been a bunch of “minor” incidents which could have gone differently?  Maybe there have been incidents elsewhere with different vehicles / times of day but the same kind of junction appears to be more dangerous wherever it’s used?  Perhaps we’re seeing a lot of people involved with health conditions which should have lead to them stopping driving but this is not getting flagged up etc.?  (Yeah, I know the last one is a bit complicated…)

[NotNigel]

A little white sticker on the

A little white sticker on the reg plate should complete the look..

[Hirsute]

Freed at last !
Freed at last !
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20z46p0p6jo

[David9694]

Agree re the sheer enormity

Agree re the sheer enormity of the monster that we have created in the form of mass motoring.  A way of managing a potentially huge collisions investigation caseload might be to restrict it to fatal and Serious injury (hospital inpatient) / life changing cases.

[chrisonabike]

David9694 wrote:

I look very warily at the GDL idea for young drivers as it’s a knee jerk that calls attention away from the utter lack of a safety culture for private motoring.

Perhaps… but the little I’ve seen it is supported by evidence (both “this really is a thing” and “the measure actually ameliorates that issue”) and not overly “punitive” (that’s of course arguable – there are clearly few things young folks like better than getting their licence then taking their mates for a drive / going on a trip, plus there are a few young carers / parents etc.).

David9694 wrote:

If the paddleboarding adventure had included a minibus trip to get to the start-point and there was a fatal crash, the response and the outcome would have been unrecogniseably different. 

Indeed – I think Bez of “Beyond the Kerb” (?) had just such an article about someone driving to work on the railways and being killed in a road crash – and how different investigations would have been if they had reached work and then been killed. (Can’t recall the article exactly though).

While there is a modicum more scrutiny for “professional driver” and “paying customers” there tends to be a dichotomy of “road – individual responsibility (and the legal system)” vs. “marine / air / rail – possibly individual responsibility and the legal system but also always independent investigation with a view to safety”.

Such systems are not perfect of course.  For example the MAIB can make regulations but doesn’t carry particularly big stick – certainly not enough to deal with those who just don’t care and the international politics sometimes involved.  And they have come in for some criticism in the past over their investigation into e.g. the Marchioness / Bowbelle collision).

Clearly nobody wants to touch the road case. That’s not just because “how do we handle the volume” – which is relevant, given LOTS of crashes relative to the other transport modes.  But I think it would quickly bring unwelcome conclusions.  Such as that mass motoring as we practice it at the moment is fundamentally lacking in effective safety controls at a wide range of levels – in licencing, regulation of drivers, design and maintenance of infra etc…

That is unwelcome because then politically both “do something” and “do nothing” look bad.  Do something and it’s going to be very costly and/or involve further limitations on drivers – so they (and perhaps councils if they’re told to sort infra) will be out with pitchforks.  Do nothing and you’re handing weapons to media and your opponents to beat you with.

Meanwhile, the Dutch “Sustainable safety” system has just such an “evaluate and feed back safety improvements” component.

[brooksby]

David9694 wrote:

Hampshire crossroads raises concerns after big crash

https://www.hampshirechronicle.co.uk/news/25108112.hampshire-crossroads-raises-concerns-big-crash/

“Obviously, it’s a notorious spot where there have been lots of accidents over the years, and I think the council has put in a lot of work to try and reduce the number of accidents that have happened there,” said Cllr Wallace.

“I think many residents are aware of that junction, and I think most people take extra precautions there,” he said. “I think the concern is that people who are less familiar with the junction take less care.”

street view link
https://maps.app.goo.gl/k4B69ia1uhW5YjgMA

I don’t understand.  There’s a main road and then there’s another road which crosses it with give-way lines.  How is that difficult?

[David9694]

I look very warily at the GDL

I look very warily at the GDL idea for young drivers as it’s a knee jerk that calls attention away from the utter lack of a safety culture for private motoring. The sort that you have with rail, marine, air, the HSE and the respective industries.  

If the paddleboarding adventure had included a minibus trip to get to the start-point and there was a fatal crash, the response and the outcome would have been unrecogniseably different. 

[David9694]

Not sure it’s got to that

Not sure it’s got to that point with table reservations, although you used to hear that Rick Stein’s Padstow restaurant is booked solid for weeks in the summer. And you do hear of driving test slots being blocked booked and going at premium rates.  

[chrisonabike]

While different cases and the
While different cases and the following has no bearing on the legal case, note that one had a thorough investigation (long before the trial) lead by the responsible safety body, with recommendations made and changes implemented by organisations.

And one didn’t.

That would be the Marine Accident Investigation Board (and you can read their investigation report, also published some time before the trial).

There is only a road equivalent on paper in the UK. And even that has only (theoretically) existed for a couple of years. Would the existence of such a body be a part of a “Sustainable Safety” / “Safe System” scheme? Need you ask?

[David9694]

Two tragedies.  Compare and

Two tragedies.  Compare and contrast attitudes-  from Wednesday’s BBC News

Paddleboard firm owner jailed over river deaths

Mrs Justice Stacey said in her sentencing remarks said that Mr O’Dwyer (Co-organiser who died) and Lloyd did not intend to harm any participants.

“But you chose to lead the group over a weir in conditions that could not have been more treacherous, placing all of them in extreme danger,” the judge added.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpdz8jlqzvxo

Driving restrictions needed to ‘save young lives’

asked if she has any resentment towards the driver (who also died), Ms Lucas said: “Absolutely not, no.”

“The driver had not been drinking. The driver was young. He was inexperienced,” she added.

“We know that young people’s brains are not mature until they’re about 25.

“It wasn’t his fault. There was nothing to stop him driving. It’s just sadly – very sadly – one of those things.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2vxnzm3l0o

[Author]

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