Near Miss of the Day 71: Bus driver ignores red light at crossing

sooshee wrote:

I use this crossing daily and this situation happens at every green phase during 

busy times. Traffic is moving too slow. By the time the lights turn red there are still

cars who crossed the line but haven't reached the pedestrian crossing and keep on

moving.

They are not paying attention to the lights at the right side at the pedestrian crossing,

since they crossed one set of green lights 20m back.

In which case the bus driver is even more at fault, becasue he should be checking for the pedestrian phase every time.

sooshee wrote:

I use this crossing daily and this situation happens at every green phase during 

busy times. Traffic is moving too slow. By the time the lights turn red there are still

cars who crossed the line but haven't reached the pedestrian crossing and keep on

moving.

They are not paying attention to the lights at the right side at the pedestrian crossing,

since they crossed one set of green lights 20m back.

If that's the case, surely the lights need to be retimed to take into account the size of the junction?  If that is what happens (the entire amber phase starts and ends while vehicles are still crossing the junction) then it's simply incompetence by the road-planners, surely?

Still doesn't justiy the bus-driver's actions, as anyone not an idiot would be aware that the lights had probably gone green for pedestrians.

IanW1968 wrote:

We are all good at something but it seems if youre still working out what that is you can get a job as bus/truck/van driver. Thats not a good qualification for what is a responsible job. 

Add minicab/taxi driver to that.

There's a fair proportion who seem unemployable, so they take paid work to do something that most people do to commute to a proper job.

Mark B wrote:

But it doesn't matter whether he can see a red light, if he's over the stop line, he isn't legally required to stop. .

 

erm... yes he is, Amber means stop unless it is not safe to do so

Rule 175

You MUST stop behind the white ‘Stop’ line across your side of the road unless the light is green. If the amber light appears you may go on only if you have already crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to stop might cause a collision.

Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 36

Paul_C wrote:

erm... yes he is, Amber means stop unless it is not safe to do so Rule 175 You MUST stop behind the white ‘Stop’ line across your side of the road unless the light is green. If the amber light appears you may go on only if you have already crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to stop might cause a collision. Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 36[/quote]

What does  amber have to do with it? I was suggesting that he crossed the line when it was green, was held up while in the large distance between the stop line and the crossing, and then continued across it, quite legally, while the light was red. 

Mark B wrote:

But it doesn't matter whether he can see a red light, if he's over the stop line, he isn't legally required to stop. I'm not saying he shouldn't stop, for a pedestrian crossing he probably should, (and he certainly shouldn't have used his horn) but it's not a legal requirement.  Had there not been pedestrians or cyclists there, not stopping would definitely have been correct.

 

If there are people on the pedestrian crossing, YOU STOP. No matter where you were when the lights changed. I see this all the time in London, cars driving through green men just because they were over the stop line. I believe that even if there is no one on the crossing you shouldn't go through. That's what I learned as a L-driver.

Mark B wrote:

But it doesn't matter whether he can see a red light, if he's over the stop line, he isn't legally required to stop. I'm not saying he shouldn't stop, for a pedestrian crossing he probably should, (and he certainly shouldn't have used his horn) but it's not a legal requirement.  Had there not been pedestrians or cyclists there, not stopping would definitely have been correct.

Rule 175 has already been quoted, but it's also worth remembering rule 176, which is forgotten by many drivers, including this bus driver

Highway Code wrote:

176
You MUST NOT move forward over the white line when the red light is showing. Only go forward when the traffic lights are green if there is room for you to clear the junction safely or you are taking up a position to turn right. If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care.

The bus driver is obviously completely in the wrong. The fact that this kind of thing happens all the time in London suggests the problem is ignorance of the highway code

olic wrote:

... but it's also worth remembering rule 176, which is forgotten by many drivers, including this bus driver

Highway Code wrote:

176
You MUST NOT move forward over the white line when the red light is showing. Only go forward when the traffic lights are green if there is room for you to clear the junction safely or you are taking up a position to turn right. If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care.

The bus driver is obviously completely in the wrong. The fact that this kind of thing happens all the time in London suggests the problem is ignorance of the highway code

Not just London. Every single traffic light controlled junction across the country. Its the main reasons junction block up. People in metal boxes are just too self-centred and unaware of their surroundings.

Guanajuato wrote:

olic wrote:

... but it's also worth remembering rule 176, which is forgotten by many drivers, including this bus driver

Highway Code wrote:

176
You MUST NOT move forward over the white line when the red light is showing. Only go forward when the traffic lights are green if there is room for you to clear the junction safely or you are taking up a position to turn right. If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care.

The bus driver is obviously completely in the wrong. The fact that this kind of thing happens all the time in London suggests the problem is ignorance of the highway code

Not just London. Every single traffic light controlled junction across the country. Its the main reasons junction block up. People in metal boxes are just too self-centred and unaware of their surroundings.

Best thing many councils could do to "get the traffic moving " would be to paint yellow boxes on every traffic light crossing or junction: far too many people are too stupid or too selfish to hold back otherwise IMO.

brooksby wrote:

Best thing many councils could do to "get the traffic moving " would be to paint yellow boxes on every traffic light crossing or junction: far too many people are too stupid or too selfish to hold back otherwise IMO.

The irony of yellow hatching is it has no special meaning, the same rule applies to all junctions: Do not enter unless you see it's clear to exit.

Hatching is used mainly on problem junctions or where cameras are used to enforce that rule.

Mark B wrote:

But it doesn't matter whether he can see a red light, if he's over the stop line, he isn't legally required to stop. I'm not saying he shouldn't stop, for a pedestrian crossing he probably should, (and he certainly shouldn't have used his horn) but it's not a legal requirement.  Had there not been pedestrians or cyclists there, not stopping would definitely have been correct.

 

I'm baffled that you suggest there's no legal requirement to not drive into people, (even when they are crossing on a green man!)

Was Alliston legally required to stop rather than ploughing into someone?  The court seemed to decide that he was.  And in that case the pedestrian in the road didn't even have lights in their favour.

Mark B wrote:

But it doesn't matter whether he can see a red light, if he's over the stop line, he isn't legally required to stop. I'm not saying he shouldn't stop, for a pedestrian crossing he probably should, (and he certainly shouldn't have used his horn) but it's not a legal requirement.  Had there not been pedestrians or cyclists there, not stopping would definitely have been correct.

 

Actually if any part of the vehicle crosses the line when the lights on red, he has broken the law. At this point, i’d assume his back wheels are on the other side of the stop line, yet he tries to carry on moving . As a driver of a long vehicle, he should be aware of this. 

schlepcycling wrote:

At 4 seconds into the video you can see the crossing lights go green and the white van is barely in the shot.  The bus that was behind it would have surely been able to see the red light on their side of the road, which would have been above and to the right of the cyclist if the one on the opposite side of the road is anything to go by in plenty of time to stop.   The fact that as people start crossing he leans on his horn and tries to bully his way through just makes him another dick that drives a bus.

Can't tell from the video, but if the Google streetview images (dated May 2016) are still accurate, there is no traffic light above the cyclist to the right - the last traffic light on the bus driver's side of the road was way back on the other side of the junction by Carpet Right. There is one more traffic light facing the driver on the far side of the junction, but it is on the other side of the road and it's not clear he could have seen that either.

NO, it's not the most considerate driving, but it's misleading to say he ignored a red light.   

quiff wrote:

Can't tell from the video, but if the Google streetview images (dated May 2016) are still accurate, there is no traffic light above the cyclist to the right - the last traffic light on the bus driver's side of the road was way back on the other side of the junction by Carpet Right. There is one more traffic light facing the driver on the far side of the junction, but it is on the other side of the road and it's not clear he could have seen that either.

NO, it's not the most considerate driving, but it's misleading to say he ignored a red light.   

It's not way back.

Typically such junctions have a delay in changing of the lights with it being red to all for a few seconds. Unless you have specific local knowledge of the timings of the lights, then the probablity is very much that the driver went through on red.

Even if it were green, he should be checking the pedestrian lights, not exactly hard from a bus driver's seat.

simonmb wrote:

Cyclist - do not cross until it is safe to do so. 

He says himself: "With the bus I actually put myself in his way to stop him blocking the whole crossing."

Dick. Doing cyclists no favours.

Bus drivers - do not drive through red traffic lights or over pedestrian crossings when the pedestrians have a green man to cross.

Dick. Doing bus drivers no favours.

simonmb wrote:

Cyclist - do not cross until it is safe to do so. 

He says himself: "With the bus I actually put myself in his way to stop him blocking the whole crossing."

Dick. Doing cyclists no favours.

From experience that crossing is the same whenever it's busy, every light change there will be a vehicle stopped on or advancing through the crossing. That's crap road design/marking.

The whole junction should be crosshatched, in which case vehicles wouldn't be permitted to enter unless their exit was clear. No idea why it's not, traffic coming out of the road opposite can go left or right.

quiff wrote:

Road.cc, please stop giving these NMOTDs misleading provocative headlines. As far as I can see from the video, it does not show a bus driver ignoring a red light. It shows a bus driver (who had already passed beyond the relevant traffic lights and stop line) ignoring or failing to see a green man on a pedestrian crossing - a signal which is perpendicular to the road and not intended for the driver in any event). The traffic lights and related stop line for the bus don't seem to be visible in the video, but appear to be way back alongside Carpet Right:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4645072,-0.0139555,3a,75y,285.85h,73.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sU_7ntU4PFR3VTqMmBWvmwA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Yes, the use of the horn is unacceptable (at least from the point at which the driver realises the crossing is green), but  that's it.                

You make a fair point about the junction. Looking at it again, I agree that the bus was probably past the lights when they went red.

The design of the junction is very poor. It would be small improvement if the box junction covered the entire junction not just the other side, so that the bus and the van would then not have been meant to stop beyond the lights. Ultimately, however, the crossing ought to have a stop line for such vehicles exiting the junction and a repeater set of lights on the crossing poles. Perhaps some Londoners might like to raise this with TfL?

However, your wording in the brackets at the end suggests something to me about your mindset - that it's ok to blast your horn at pedestrians crossing without even looking at why they might be doing it. Pedestrians do not have an obligation to get out of drivers' way and blasting horns at pedestrians to scare them out of your way is never acceptable behaviour, even if they are in the wrong. Might does not make right! See Highway Code rule 112:

Quote:

Rule 112

The horn. Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence. Never sound your horn aggressively. You MUST NOT use your horn

while stationary on the road
when driving in a built-up area between the hours of 11.30 pm and 7.00 am

except when another road user poses a danger.

Law CUR reg 99

I'd say it was pretty aggressive. Always better to use the brakes than the horn to avoid a collision.