Near Miss of the Day 64: Bus driver overtakes cyclists ... then pulls into bus stop

ts437 wrote:

I ride this route every day, and yes it's a terribly designed piece of infrastructure - you get squeezed by buses at this point every single time. And again further up the road in an almost identical setup.

It is no excuse for the bus driver however - the highway code is very clear. If you have to wait for a gap, you have to wait for a gap.

If that bit of highway code doesn't use the words "MUST" and "MUST NOT" it is not law and not legally enforceable.

ts437 wrote:

The traffic lights will change shortly and hey presto - no more cyclists in the bus lane, plenty of room to pull into the bus stop.

It doesn't work like that in London particularly at rush hour. 

There are lots of red light jumpers regardless of their method of transport. This is due to the phasing of lights at most road junctions and congestion.

Also bus drivers to get around will force themselves into and out of  bus stops and bus lanes regardless of whether you are on a bike, moped, scooter, motorcycle, car or van.    The only people they don't do this to are HGV drivers.  Therefore unless you are driving a HGV it is your job to listen and look out for buses, then give way to buses coming in and out of bus stops and bus lanes unless you want to be hit.

ts437 wrote:

Most of the time this happens at this spot the bus is accelerating to get in front of you and pull across - it leaves you very little time to yield. I would report it to TFL as they do usually respond, and hopefully it may highlight an isue in the infrastructure so it can be avoided elsewhere.

It is an infrastructure design problem and needs to reported upwards finally to the Mayor's office.   When the cycle lane was introduced they didn't realise cycling would end up being so popular.

craigstitt wrote:

Yeah, I don't see that the bus driver had any alternative there.  You can see from the footage that there was a pretty much constant stream of cyclists in the bus/cycle lane.  Unfortunately it is the design of the infrastructure that is wrong there.  The island separating the cycle lane from the road, forcing the bus separate from the cycle lane, then putting a bus stop within a couple of hundred meters.

And the bus driver was giving plenty of indication that they were looking to come over, and never actually completed the maneuver until the cyclists were out of the danger zone so to speak.

What would the cyclists reaction have been had the bus driver stopped in the middle of the road to let passengers off the bus and they stepped out into the cycle lane.  The bus driver was put in a no win situation by the design of the road.

You are absoutely correct the infrastructure has produced this conflict.

However this does not remove the free will of the bus driver as to how he/she drives the bus.  "giving plenty of indication" does also not allow him to cut people up.

All the bus driver has to do is wait until the lane he wants to turn in to is clear, it's very, very simple.... 

There needs to be give and take here, as London's roads are so busy.

Bus had to get to his stop. (S)he did it carefully, with space and indicators. Yes, there were bikes, but it would have been more dangerous for them had the bus stopped and waited for a gap before going left - specially the way some loons ride bikes.

Riders should notice a stop coming up and a bus approaching behind them and join up the dots ...

jaysa wrote:

There needs to be give and take here, as London's roads are so busy.

Bus had to get to his stop. (S)he did it carefully, with space and indicators. Yes, there were bikes, but it would have been more dangerous for them had the bus stopped and waited for a gap before going left - specially the way some loons ride bikes.

Riders should notice a stop coming up and a bus approaching behind them and join up the dots ...

I actually agree with this except for the last sentence. Riders should notice the bus lane coming up and accept that buses in front of them may need to pull into it.

If a bus has to stop in the outer lane and wait for the (in rush hour potentially continuous) flow of bicycles, the traffic behind the bus will be stationary across the junction.  Whatever means of transport you are in or on, in a busy urban environment  vehicles (including bicycles) need to change lane and it is necessary to give way to maintain traffic flow whether that be, in this particular case, a cyclist allowing a bus in or a bus driver waiting for cyclists to pass.

As said above ^^ , a potential solution in this instance would be phased lights for cylcle lane and other lane.

EM69 wrote:

Sorry but these posts are now becoming a little rediculous...

Yes, it's rediculously ridiculous.

Tom_in_MN wrote:

In the states buses have the right of way. I'm not positive if it's also over bikes, but I would certainly give them the right of way. Look sideways and see the turn signal and you slow down and let it in.

Tom: In the UK buses do not have priority over other traffic: this driver was just deciding to do what they liked because they're in a bigger vehicle. That's why people are complaining.

Duncann wrote:

Helmet-cam man was executing a very close pass on the rider to his left even before the bus came along though. That was more dangerous than what the bus did.

It wasn't though, was it?

Bikebikebike wrote:

Duncann wrote:

Helmet-cam man was executing a very close pass on the rider to his left even before the bus came along though. That was more dangerous than what the bus did.

It wasn't though, was it?

Looking again, I think's hard to split them in terms of poor - if slightly different - behaviour.

For me, it's the balance between probability and consequence: being clipped by a bus is worse than being clipped by a cyclist (which could still be serious - it's what happens next). But I think there was more chance of the latter actually happening.

I don't think there was much chance of an impact with the bus in this case.

Critchio wrote:

Didn't really see a problem as already stated. We have to share road space, and sometimes that road space is horribly designed. Because we as cyclists are vulnerable road users doesn't mean we have absolute priority over every other vehicle all of the time. Sometimes we have to ease up on pedals and squeeze a brake lever occasionally. My take on it anyway.

but its a "might is right" manuever, the driver has already decided to make the move regardless of whether the traffic around them is compliant, they are only cyclists, theyll get out the way, and remember the driver is positioned such youd better hope their mirrors are setup on the left properly else theyll have no idea who they are trapping on their inside as they move over, and  yeah if the cyclists dont share the space, or concede the consequence is you get hit by a bus, great thanks that really feels like sharing the road with people, Ill remember to drive like that next time Im on the road, or not.

ymmv, Im not saying the infra is great there and that we shouldnt share where we can, but I really dont like buses pulling moves like that on me, its a frickin bus not a cuddly toy, by moving across like that your bike handling has to suddenly be on game totally 100%, because one minor mistake, like squeezing a brake too hard as the surprise of the bus appearing in your peripheral so close and fast and you having to react over those handily mid bike lane placed wet drain covers, and youll be under the rear of that bus.

Awavey wrote:

Critchio wrote:

Didn't really see a problem as already stated. We have to share road space, and sometimes that road space is horribly designed. Because we as cyclists are vulnerable road users doesn't mean we have absolute priority over every other vehicle all of the time. Sometimes we have to ease up on pedals and squeeze a brake lever occasionally. My take on it anyway.

 

but its a "might is right" manuever, the driver has already decided to make the move regardless of whether the traffic around them is compliant, they are only cyclists, theyll get out the way, and remember the driver is positioned such youd better hope their mirrors are setup on the left properly else theyll have no idea who they are trapping on their inside as they move over, and  yeah if the cyclists dont share the space, or concede the consequence is you get hit by a bus, great thanks that really feels like sharing the road with people, Ill remember to drive like that next time Im on the road, or not.

ymmv, Im not saying the infra is great there and that we shouldnt share where we can, but I really dont like buses pulling moves like that on me, its a frickin bus not a cuddly toy, by moving across like that your bike handling has to suddenly be on game totally 100%, because one minor mistake, like squeezing a brake too hard as the surprise of the bus appearing in your peripheral so close and fast and you having to react over those handily mid bike lane placed wet drain covers, and youll be under the rear of that bus.

Oh come on, that is a non event in the normal course of daily cycling. What do most pedestrians do when you ride up behind them and ring your bell on shared use paths? They get out of your way by changing direction or slow up or even stop so they can let you, a faster moving person, past and not get hit by a larger heavier thing with metal bits on it.

This is no different. It's about sharing road space and having a bit of consideration for others. There is risk in everything that we do. In over 40 years of cycling I have slipped on drain covers zero times. You should not be getting surprise by a bus. Pay more attention, get mirrors and look over your shoulder more. You are on a very busy main road not a deserted cycle track.

We do ourselves no favours by complaining about every minor annoyance on the road so when something more serious does happens it's treated with less concern than it should be. We have to share road space and we have to anticipate what other drivers are going to do, just as we do when we jump into our cars. Just because you ride a bike does not mean that same anticipation ceases. Buses stop. Vehicles come from behind.

This article is one such example and it's rather poor journalism by road.cc because they've made it sound horrendous and serious when it's not. Where is the objective, balanced and reasoned rationale? These non events are really starting to grate on me and they are not helpful.

Critchio wrote:

Awavey wrote:

Critchio wrote:

Didn't really see a problem as already stated. We have to share road space, and sometimes that road space is horribly designed. Because we as cyclists are vulnerable road users doesn't mean we have absolute priority over every other vehicle all of the time. Sometimes we have to ease up on pedals and squeeze a brake lever occasionally. My take on it anyway.

 

but its a "might is right" manuever, the driver has already decided to make the move regardless of whether the traffic around them is compliant, they are only cyclists, theyll get out the way, and remember the driver is positioned such youd better hope their mirrors are setup on the left properly else theyll have no idea who they are trapping on their inside as they move over, and  yeah if the cyclists dont share the space, or concede the consequence is you get hit by a bus, great thanks that really feels like sharing the road with people, Ill remember to drive like that next time Im on the road, or not.

ymmv, Im not saying the infra is great there and that we shouldnt share where we can, but I really dont like buses pulling moves like that on me, its a frickin bus not a cuddly toy, by moving across like that your bike handling has to suddenly be on game totally 100%, because one minor mistake, like squeezing a brake too hard as the surprise of the bus appearing in your peripheral so close and fast and you having to react over those handily mid bike lane placed wet drain covers, and youll be under the rear of that bus.

Oh come on, that is a non event in the normal course of daily cycling. What do most pedestrians do when you ride up behind them and ring your bell on shared use paths? They get out of your way by changing direction or slow up or even stop so they can let you, a faster moving person, past and not get hit by a larger heavier thing with metal bits on it. This is no different. It's about sharing road space and having a bit of consideration for others. There is risk in everything that we do. In over 40 years of cycling I have slipped on drain covers zero times. You should not be getting surprise by a bus. Pay more attention, get mirrors and look over your shoulder more. You are on a very busy main road not a deserted cycle track. We do ourselves no favours by complaining about every minor annoyance on the road so when something more serious does happens it's treated with less concern than it should be. We have to share road space and we have to anticipate what other drivers are going to do, just as we do when we jump into our cars. Just because you ride a bike does not mean that same anticipation ceases. Buses stop. Vehicles come from behind. This article is one such example and it's rather poor journalism by road.cc because they've made it sound horrendous and serious when it's not. Where is the objective, balanced and reasoned rationale? These non events are really starting to grate on me and they are not helpful.

Getting forced to stop by a bus driving in front of you isnt a minor annoyance.

The bus is delibarately pulling in on cyclists that he/she knows are there but couldnt give a shit - this isnt some give way decision: the bus has effectively forced the cyclsists to stop or get off the road.

Sharing the road means that other vehicles treat you as they woudl be treated - imagine a car pulling in front of a bus because they needed to stop - the bus driver would go mental and rightly so.  It just wouldnt happen.

Until people in the UK realise this is wrong we will continue to have awful cycling conditions on our roads and high road deaths compared to Denmark and The Netherlands.  It suggests we have a very long way to go if you a cylists (I believe that you are) think this type of driving is absolutely fine.

Zjtm231 wrote:

 

Until people in the UK realise this is wrong we will continue to have awful cycling conditions on our roads and high road deaths compared to Denmark and The Netherlands.  It suggests we have a very long way to go if you a cylists (I believe that you are) think this type of driving is absolutely fine.

 

 

I don't think a single person said that it is fine, the infrastructure is poor and the manouvere not perfect, there isn't a perfect option for the driver here. As others have said, there are times in a car when you will flash someone in because it's no big deal to you and they may have been incorrectly positioned. If the rider had stopped or slowed significantly to do this you can guarantee there'd be others flying past.

If it's a known problem with many pinch points there then I wouldn't ride in the cycle lane, get out there in the road and filter as you see fit. Potentially you'll lose a lot of the 'undertake' opportunities at stopped traffic but your life is more important right?

Critchio wrote:

Oh come on, that is a non event in the normal course of daily cycling. What do most pedestrians do when you ride up behind them and ring your bell on shared use paths?

Turn around and snarl at you? Or at least 'tut' ostentatiously?

In general your post seems to me a good illustration of why those who have 40 years experience of cycling in current conditions are the last people anyone should listen to about cycling (because, by definition, they aren't representative of anyone but a tiny minority).

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

In general your post seems to me a good illustration of why those who have 40 years experience of cycling in current conditions are the last people anyone should listen to about cycling (because, by definition, they aren't representative of anyone but a tiny minority).

I don't listen to doctors on the same basis. Or scientists. Or any experts. They just represent a tiny minority. Why listen to them with all their years of specialist experience??

I think I understand the point you're trying to make - but I don't think you made it very well.

And I completely disagree that experienced cyclists should be the last to be listened to - our perspective needs to be kept in context (as everyone else's does) but that doesn't mean we don't have a wealth of relevant experience.

Duncann wrote:

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

In general your post seems to me a good illustration of why those who have 40 years experience of cycling in current conditions are the last people anyone should listen to about cycling (because, by definition, they aren't representative of anyone but a tiny minority).

I don't listen to doctors on the same basis. Or scientists. Or any experts. They just represent a tiny minority. Why listen to them with all their years of specialist experience??

I think I understand the point you're trying to make - but I don't think you made it very well.

And I completely disagree that experienced cyclists should be the last to be listened to - our perspective needs to be kept in context (as everyone else's does) but that doesn't mean we don't have a wealth of relevant experience.

Equally, I don't think you thought through that comparison with doctors or scientists. People who have cycled a lot in current conditions haven't studied the wider subject in any scientific manner, they are merely very used to coping with things as they are and have acquired attitudes and mindsets to match. That's not analogous to scientists.

Admittedly your last point here is perfectly reasonable, but your previous post came across as elitist. And I can't share the emphasis on 'sharing'. There is no real 'sharing' between such unequal parties. Which is why in practice users of motorised vehicles don't have to share, they mostly have the roads to themselves.