Parents in Newcastle are experiencing verbal and physical abuse from some drivers while cycling their children to school, the Newcastle Cycling Campaign says.
In an impassioned article the Campaign's chair, Katja Leyendecker, reports "constantly worsening traffic" outside schools where, she says, parents face dangerous road conditions and even abuse from drivers, simply for cycling to school with their children.
Leyendecker urges the council to prioritise walking and cycling, while one parent calls her commute with her kids "scary and dangerous".
"We are majorly concerned. For quite some time now have we been contacted by numerous concerned parents who are telling us that they want to cycle to school but firstly for them to do so the roads and crossings must be made safer," Layendecker says.
"We also have heard that people who do cycle to school with their kids get abuse and insult thrown at them, verbal and even physical, by drivers. These cycling accounts are clearly heart-breaking, as the parents – whilst doing the right thing – are harangued for it. It’s shocking, really. Some have even stopped cycling as the social pressure that’s put on them is too much to bear, we have heard."
Leyendecker wants to see the council design streets outside of the school gates so an eight year old could cycle on them "without harassment or danger levied on them or discomfort to them or their parents."
She said: “It can be done by design and ‘invisible infrastructure’ like car parking reduction strategy, bus-route consolidation, general pricing mechanism and applying Dutch principles of road safety like transport network planning and road classification."
The Dutch road classification system breaks down a street to a single purpose: places where people stay, such as residential and leisure areas, and those people travel through. Under this model those purposes aren't mixed, to avoid having large differences in speed on one street.
Leyendecker points out that in Newcastle, according to the 2011 census, two of five car commutes are less than three miles.
She says: "In the Northeast we are the fattest people in England and treating obesity costs many millions to the Northeast economy."
Chair of Newcycling's Jesmond branch, Sally Watson, wrote a blog recently on the Campaign's website about cycling with her children to school.
Having filmed the journey one day, she said: "When we watched the film at home I was quite shocked at how scary it all looks. It made me realise that I have become desensitised. Not to the worst of the speeding and close overtakes, but to having to be on the offensive at all times. You can’t hear everything that I say to my son but I am shouting instructions to him almost constantly."
"It is not great cycling across Jesmond as an adult on a bike but it is so many many times worse when you are accompanying a child on their own bike. This is why very few children cycle to school. It is hard work and at times it is scary and dangerous. We live about 3/4 mile from school and it would take very little to make this journey safe."
She said: "I feel strongly that we are failing our children by not making our streets safe for travel and for play."
Some cities, including Edinburgh, are trialling banning traffic directly outside school gates at peak times in a bid to improve safety.
























73 thoughts on “Newcastle campaigner says parents experience abuse while cycling with children to school”
At my childrens school people
At my childrens school people drive just a third of a mile.
It’s normal to see cars parked on the zig-zags too.
Surely society ought to defend the vulnerable, shouldn’t it?
GREGJONES wrote:At my
Maybe we need to see Police parked up outside schools issuing tickets for EVERY infraction as a starter.
Mind you i dread to think what the Daily Mail response to that would be.
The Primary school in the
The Primary school in the village where I live is at the end of my street, it’s embarrassing to see the number of children dropped off by parents dressed in “onesies” because it takes too much effort to get dressed & walk half a mile.
Our school has run various
Our school has run various campaigns, made pleas to parents, involved local police etc and the problem just recurs. It would be impossible to have a police officer at every single school. The idea of banning cars at certain times as the article suggests but again how can that be enforced? Children from the school got no end of abuse when they tried to leaflet drivers asking them not to park directly outside the school.
Love the fact that the dad
Love the fact that the dad cycling with his kids in the photo is on the phone. Nice supervising. Should be fined like a car driver would be.
The drivers shouting abuse
The drivers shouting abuse should receive a section 59. Their selfishness is beyond belief.
I don’t think any body who
I don’t think any body who cycles at all in this country would be surprised by this.
Driving a car in general is a massive selfish act. At the very least your contributing to the death of 29,000 people.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30349398
That’s before you drive your car into somebody and kill them.
As dreadful as it is to say, motorist shouting abuse out of their windows at children is about the least of their crimes, if you can believe that.
Trouble is, no-one that could
Trouble is, no-one that could do anything about it is listening. Motorists gained road ascendancy by violence, and threat of violence. They won’t be giving an inch back of their own accord.
Same old, same old. Welcome
Same old, same old. Welcome to Britain 2015.
My 10 year old has ridden on
My 10 year old has ridden on the roads for the last couple of years and it sickens me to say we’ve experienced the full range of motorist abuse – verbal, punishment passes, blaring horns etc but also on occasions some great behaviour. It’s the polarity of behaviour which is scary as there’s only one loser when close pass is misjudged. To be honest, we’ve become a nation where nasty, selfish behaviour is acceptable. I’ve just returned from working in Stockholm – cycling over there was a revelation – both the infrastructure and the attitude of other road users.
Welcome to Tory Britain
Welcome to Tory Britain 2015:
– selfishness is all good
– egg on suicidal people to jump off bridges
– attack the NHS, the BBC
– vilify cyclists
Ramuz wrote:Welcome to Tory
This, summons it up. PLUS 100
Ramuz wrote:Welcome to Tory
To be fair, I don’t think the Tories have turned people into arseholes overnight. It could be argued that the former left-wing policies of ensuring everyone has ‘rights’ (whatever they are) not just those who need them most has propagated a culture of ‘my needs are greater than yours’.
No one ever says “I know your rights….”, it’s always “I know my rights…”, usually as justification for doing something selfish.
That child should not be on
That child should not be on the roads on a bike. What is he, 5 or 6? He can barely ride a bike. Should be on the footpath.
DrJDog wrote:That child
And where does it say it is legal to ride on the pavement?
DrJDog wrote:That child
He should definitely be on the road. And in a civilised country, that road would be made safe enough for him to do so.
DrJDog wrote:That child
He is on the “road”. The path you refer to is the footway – clue there for you in the name. If by “road” you mean carriageway, then as they’re on a bike that’s where they should be, as its the “way” for carriages. I’ve looked and looked and can’t find a minimum age limit anywhere for using the public highways.
Who is the child in danger from? He might well topple off and graze a knee, but the real danger is the people who decided to get in a tonne of metal that day.
Unfortunately the attitude illustrated in this article is very common in the UK. I work in this sector, and when we talk to parents who insist on driving to take their kids to school they say “Look at it, there’s so many cars its too dangerous”. When we explain that they are simply adding to the problem, and that other parents are looking at them saying “look how dangerous it is” they look at you blankly. The owning and driving of a car in this country has almost become taken as a human right, if you suggest taking it away it’s like removing a limb for some.
DrJDog wrote:That child
And this nicely sums up the problem. No, he shouldn’t be on the road. He shouldn’t be on the footpath either. He should be on the cycle path. People shouldn’t have to choose between legality and safety at any age, and it’s entirely environmental.
Thon child in the original
Thon child in the original pic is on a cycle track in the Meadows in Edinburgh. It’s a totally car free environment. And to the best of my knowledge a peeler will not make a minor cycle on the roads.
I believe that cycling on the
I believe that cycling on the pavement is illegal, but that children of primary school age cannot be prosecuted.
felixcat wrote:I believe that
Correct. The law on cycling on the pavement makes no difference for age, whether that is right or wrong. The technicality is that a child would not be prosecuted if they are under the age of criminal responsibility anyway. 10 in England and Wales, 12 in Scotland.
You can cycle on the pavement
You can cycle on the pavement if you are in mortal fear of your life from riding on the roads and there is good evidence. Home Office guidance. Obviously if a road is empty you should be on it and not the pavement.
Never the less to address this article BRITAIN IS A SHIT AND DANGEROUS COUNTRY TO RIDE A BIKE.
Yes the roads should be safe,
Yes the roads should be safe, yes people should not park in the keep clear lines and yes the traffic wardens should be there making their lives miserable for doing so. Then maybe more people would walk or cycle to school. I suspect given the location of the school in the video that most of the children who attend live within a 1 mile radius.
Having said all that, given the skills of the child in this video, I’d be walking some of those sections and junctions or using a trailer bike.
half of the school run mums
half of the school run mums shouting abuse are likely to be drunk if the results of North Yorkshire plod’s summer drink drive campaign are anything to go on; one woman 3 times over the limit, another 4.5 times, both with young children in the car. If you bear in mind that drink driving is only enforced a couple of weeks a year in a pretty cursory fashion and NYP are not exactly CSI Miami then there are a lot of people out there with very little thought for anyone, even their own kids
The video shows one
The video shows one questionably close pass (hard to tell with the fish eye lens) and a bus in a bad position. I don’t get it. Not to mention the video is sped up which is a bit dishonest. If people on the Internet wouldn’t sit through the video at the actual pace, is it any surprise that other road users would be put off?
velo-nh wrote:The video shows
You can tell it’s close by looking at where the wheels of the car are – the driver could of and should of driven fully on the other side of the road, why did they choose not to?
Luckily for me, I don’t have
Luckily for me, I don’t have school age children any more, and my commute only passes one school, but I understand and sympathise with people about the abuse from drivers. It is completely heinous when there’s a child (or more) cycling. Driving really does strip the humanity for some.
Below is an edited (to remove the location) of a reply from my councillor who at the time was the mayor & chair of the LA wellbeing committtee.
It is despairing that they have no ideas and some parents are as pigheaded and selfish as they are.
Put tyre spikes where the
Put tyre spikes where the zigzags are that will stop people parking on them
dotdash wrote:Put tyre spikes
i think they should build retractable spikes into stop lines at traffic lights. Stop the idiots jumping lights and an even worse peeve of creeping forwards whilst on red until the rear wheels are past the line.
My children’s previous school
My children’s previous school before we moved had problems, for months parents complained, the police only decided to get involved when a child at the school got run over by another parent’s car.
My commute takes me past
My commute takes me past numerous schools. Near my office there are three secondary schools close together. The driving standards of people going past are very poor. The road is narrow and bumpy and there are kids crossing the road, yet still people batter along there in excess of the 30mph speed limit. There are double yellow lines outside the schools and many parents just pull to a halt and unload their offspring. There’s one woman I see regularly and I suppose it’s the fact she has a Range Rover Sport and bumps up onto the pavement that makes me so annoyed.
Hardly any of the kids cycle. Given the way the drivers behave I’m not surprised.
I don’t see why parking
I don’t see why parking within 1000m of a school should be residents/disabled only. Start towing a few away and they’ll get the message.
I actually saw some youngsters riding their bikes on the (residential) road near me at the weekend. It lifted my spirits. Kids should be playing in the road.
Car exclusion zones around
Car exclusion zones around schools would be a good start. Any offence involving anger/aggression leads to a mandatory three month bans – a reminder that a licence is a permission to drive and not a divine right. Increase fines hugely and enforce them.
Then we might see some change
I ride with my boy once a
I ride with my boy once a week to school – lorry drivers are sweet now, they’ve had some fairly heavy training recently that has to be regularly renewed, that includes making them get on bike and driving wagons past them at speed. So they’ve got the message. White vans can usually be managed if you ride defensively, look the driver in the eye and give them a wave when you first see them and then when you part.
Bus drivers vary
Taxi drivers and mums late for the school run – beware. They know no order. I’ve bought a rear camera now, just to manage the madness and have some form of redress if it does go tits up
Yesterday I had a mild rebuke
Yesterday I had a mild rebuke from my Boss.
On Friday whilst travelling home I passed a school at home time. An overweight woman ushered an obese child into an oversized 4×4 parked at least 3 feet from the kerb. She then set off at what I would regard as an inappropriate speed for the time of day and location.
She then aggressively sounded her horn at two school children riding correctly in the secondary position and followed this with a close pass of less than 6 inches from the handlebar ends.
This made me angry and I decided to follow her. This involved speeds up to 50mph in a 30mph zone. Before you ask I was at a discrete distance so I wasn’t pressuring her to go faster. After just over a mile she swung into a driveway. I parked and got out of my vehicle and asked her (apologies for the language in advance)
“Are you fucking right?”
Blank look
“Do you realise how fucking dangerous your actions are and your fucking driving is?
Blank look
“Don’t other people’s children matter to you at all? Don’t you feel you have a responsibility for there safety? Don’t you fucking care? Don’t you feel you have a duty not to endanger them you numb cunt?”
Blank look followed by a “Don’t you talk like that to me, I’m going to report you!” She then turned on her heel and stormed into the house.
Now yes I admit I probably should not have sworn at her, yes I admit I’m in the wrong there. But I wish to point out that I remained on the footpath and never entered her property nor did I approach closer than 15 feet. According to her report (Yes, sign written vehicle) I marched onto her property, assaulted her, screamed at her and threatened her child. Luckily for me her neighbour came out and gave me their contact details and so all I got was a mild slap on the wrist.
In conclusion. Yes it is dangerous for children and parents to cycle to school but only because of FAT, LAZY, LYING SCUM-SUCKING HUMAN DETRITUS DRIVING TOTALY UNNECESSARY 4×4’s IN A RECKLESS, HEEDLESS AND DANGEROUS MANNER!
Thank you for listening.
levermonkey wrote:Yesterday I
Sigh. Personally I think you were mild and restrained in the circumstances. And if it had been my kid that the evil moron had put in danger I would have slept happier knowing that there was another responsible citizen (you) on the roads. Thank you.
^^^^ Wot he wrote
^^^^ Wot he wrote x1,000,000,000.
Thanks for that
Thanks for that levermonkey.
There are no dangerous roads. To paraphrase a quote from elsewhere: roads don’t kill people, people kill people.
There should be an all-out
There should be an all-out national campaign (Greens, Friends of the Earth, whoever else) against 4x4s. Ridiculous how cyclists get vilified yet these monsters (sometimes driven with the same ego that drives them to buy an unnecessarily huge vehicle) go unpunished.
– emissions
– damage to the tarmac
– too wide for parking spaces
– chance of serious injury/death in a collision
RAMUZ! What?! Are you just
RAMUZ! What?! Are you just saying this to get a rise or have your senses left you? In the same way that ALL cyclists get tarred with a ridiculous brush because of an idiot jumping red lights, you are saying that all 4×4 vehicles should be banned because some idiot can’t drive properly. To paraphrase someone from earlier in this chat, “4×4’s don’t kill people, people kill people”. And in case you are wondering, I commute on a bike, mountain bike, road bike, tour on a bike, drive a normal saloon and a 4×4!
X(
What do we expect these days
What do we expect these days anyway? People get all excited because they think they are the most important thing out there, no one has 5 seconds to spare, even for a child.
I love seeing kids cycling to
I love seeing kids cycling to school. It really raises my spirits, the little boy could do with his helmet adjusting to get the fit a bit better and he could do with some practice starting off. He seems a little unsure of how to set off (which foot to be on the ground, how to set the pedals for starting off), but he’s steady enough once he gets going.
The thing I have to ask myself is where are all the 11-15 year old kids? The ones who you would expect to be riding to school on their own after a few years riding in with their parents?
My guess is that the parents, having seen what abuse and dangerous driving is around them with their own eyes, don;t want them riding to school on their own.
I just had my first proper
I just had my first proper ride this morning with my new camera, and when I got back and enjoyed the novelty of reliving the exciting bits whizzing down twisty descents, I also noticed how good most of the driving was. In general, all the cars and trucks gave me a reasonable amount of space, and on the descents kept well, well back – I really don’t think that was due any Nibali-style descending skills on my part, but their desire not to run me over if I continued acting like an idiot
so well done drivers of East Berkshire and South Bucks ….
riotgibbon wrote:I just had
Yeah, it always surprises me a bit too. Reading this site its easy to fall into the trap of thinking all motorists are the enemy, but really most are actually pretty good – it’s certainly a minority that are twattish drivers.
Too true. The majority of
Too true. The majority of driving is ok, and as I presume most readers/contributors to this site also are motorists we’d like to think we’re part of that 99%. But unfortunately, unlike when you’re in a car and you come into contact with the 1% of idiots it doesn’t hugely matter (normally, hopefully), on a bike you are vulnerable all the time. That’s why we’re referred to as Vulnerable Road Users, along with peds – we’re not surrounded by crumple zones and airbags.
“You can tell it’s close by
“You can tell it’s close by looking at where the wheels of the car are – the driver could of and should of driven fully on the other side of the road, why did they choose not to?”
Unfortunately in the UK this is all too common. It’s either the driver has no idea how wide their car is (unlikely) or that they are far too impatient and just “had” to get past. Once people get behind the wheel of a car, a good chunk of the population behave like imbeciles. Years of development of the highway network has made us think “if I’m in a car I’m more important, out of my way” – many people don’t even realise they’re thinking like that. A person in a car, a person on a bike, a person on a horse – they should all be equal, they’re a;; just going along to somewhere using a different vehicle…but its not the case.
In “less developed” countries, this might-is-right mindset is just everywhere (ever been to India, China, south-east Asia? The trucks push the buses who push the cars who push the bikes who push the pedestrians out of the way). Places like Holland, Germany, France are (in general) happier to share the road. It sadly shows that in the UK we’re not quite as advanced a society as we like to think we are.
Zermattjohn wrote:… either
True. It’s the deep down ingrained belief that since you are *only* on a bike, then of course you’d be able to move over because you’re only *this* wide anyway, aren’t you? Motorists approaching you on single lane roads, with parked cars both sides, seem to be particularly susceptible to this mindset. (Embarrassingly, so is my wife. Many a heated discussion about why cyclists might be on the road instead on the off-road cycle path, or why a cyclist might be so far out into the road.)
yeah, so its a very low risk
yeah, so its a very low risk activity, but when its risky, its really risky. Whats the name for that kind of scenario?
riotgibbon wrote:yeah, so its
Only real parallel would be a war zone. Most people never end up hurt by enemy action, but when the shooting starts next to you, it’s lethal…
yeah, so its a very low risk
yeah, so its a very low risk activity, but when its risky, its really risky. Whats the name for that kind of scenario?
Low Probability, High Magnitude risk
Aren’t most of commentators
Aren’t most of commentators rather missing the point?
The point being made in the article (as well as eloquently in the video) was surely that riding home from primary school on a bike should be a normal activity? Something that doesn’t even need to be commented on.
In Canada most schools have
In Canada most schools have flashing lights on the road outside a few hundred meters each side of the entrance and at the beginning and end of each school day the school put them on. When they are flashing all traffic fines and penalty points are doubled and you are not allowed to overtake. Not many cyclists when I lived there but it does calm everything down outside schools. It would be great to see it tried here but one of the big problems is that most road safety budgets are allocated on the basis of accidents having occurred and there is no formal means of collecting near miss data to anticipate an increasing problem.
gmac101 wrote:In Canada most
Sweden has a similar system, with posted hours and a 20mph limit. Fines are doubled then.
In fact, fines are higher in 20mph (30km/h) zones than on motorways.
gmac101 wrote:…one of the
I think it is even more insidious than that.
The overall casualty figures have been steadily decreasing for decades, so legislators and road planners congratulate themselves that their policies are all working well.
What they don’t see (or don’t care to acknowledge) is that some of the drop in casualty numbers is from certain classes of road user being scared off the roads.
It’s pretty easy to get a low number of injuries to child cyclists if you have a low number of child cyclists to start with!
gmac101 wrote:In Canada most
I don’t think it’s true to say “in Canada”. I think this is probably only in some very few restricted places and recalling having seen something like it once in Calgary, AB. I certainly have not seen it on business trips to the Maritimes, Ontario and Quebec.
I tried: “I’ve looked and
I tried: “I’ve looked and looked and can’t find a minimum age limit anywhere for using the public highways.”
Children cycling is an
Children cycling is an interesting measure. When someone tells me that an existing cycle facility is “perfectly adequate” then I ask them if they’d let their children use it to cycle to school. This is usually met with spluttering, as if it’s a ridiculous question and such a thing is completely unthinkable.
Meanwhile, not so very far away, the average Dutch child cycles to school *independently* at age 8.
I’m lucky that I live in a small village where my five year old daughter can pedal to school (“illegally”) on foot paths and no one really minds.
I’ve started to encourage her to use the road at a couple of points where it is very quiet, and on the approach road to school where there is no room on the path due to cars half-parked on it.
I don’t get abuse. It’s too small a village for that. But I do detect horrified stares and quiet tutting from the other parents.
The road, even in the dead-end back streets of a quiet village with a 20mph limit, is an absolute No-Go area for their kids and encouraging my child to cycle on it is clearly reckless endangerment.
We have a very long way to go!
Also, Yehuda Moon:
Also, Yehuda Moon:
One of the cartoons on this
One of the cartoons on this page is relevant.
http://www.brickbats.co.uk/cartoons/transport/
And of course that 4×4 is
And of course that 4×4 is essential for all the weekly commutes off road and on snow?
Without picking on Hairy 70’s man I remember a time when a Land Rover on the high street was a sign that the farmer was visiting the city. 😀
The reason people that aren’t farmers or living off road own 4×4 now is simply because they are fashionable. The reason they are fashionable is because they are butch and tough looking and allow the driver to feel safe and literally look down on others. It’s the equivalent of a comfort blanket. When Mini are making bloated ‘4×4’s’ you can tell it’s end game time for the era of rugged suburban motorists. It’s so infantile it’s almost beyond parody.
I really do believe that by 2060 our current children will be looking back at this point in time and shaking their heads with embarrassment at how deluded many of us were. The planet’s on it’s knees ecologically and people still think it’s their right to cruise around in a brick on wheels at 25mpg.
I saw a pensioner in a brand new electric car in Sainsburys car park last week. She was the future. 4×4’s are like Jeremy Clarkson – out dated old news. I remember the days before them and I hope to see the days when they are once again back where they belong – on the hills. With MTBs.
MercuryOne wrote:And of
The whole 4×4 thing is irrelevant – what you really should have a problem with is anyone driving any vehicle without care for other road users. It’s crazy to pull out one type of big vehicle as inherently worse than others. Why is a 4×4 (which includes a fiat panda) worse than minivans, vans, large estates, and most high end sports cars (that although low are surprisingly wide and long)? I suspect most people who sneer at a luxury 4×4 don’t have the same reaction to Ford galaxy minivan even though neither is full efficient or small and often contain small children.
Most of these are also what you want if you want to transport bikes easily.
Since I’m a closet green, I wanted a plug in hybrid or full EV, the only requirements were that it had to go at least 200miles and it had to fit a bike with rear wheel in place. Since I can’t afford a tesla, it turns out that the best solution was a ‘4×4’. It swallows a bike without removing either wheel and over the last 8000miles has averaged 110mpg. But it seems that in your eyes because it has a 4×4 logo on the back that makes me the antichrist?
Agree that the whole 4×4
Agree that the whole 4×4 discussion is irrelevant, as all cars have to take extra care, as after all the cyclist will always be worse off if a car hits a cyclist or vice versa.
I m drive a 4×4 and live around London, and I find the car I chosen to be the most practical and comfortable as I have a wife, a dog and a kid and pram on the way. And I drive long distances aka 700miles plus on regularly basis, plus getting my bike or two into the car no problem for races is an incentive as well. I take extra care when I see a cyclist on the road, and wait until I can get past safely even if I m stuck behind him/her for 10mins and annoying all the cars behind me. Taking the risk is simply not worth it!
Additionally saying that electric cars are better for the environment is far fetched with the production and then disposal of the batteries outweighing the good environment effect. Plus I hate saying it, but most electric cars look design wise very strange and are quite impractical for a lot of people!
We need to get away from stereotyping 4×4, and start puting all cars in one boat! Simply put there is a chance that a cyclist could die if you hit it with a car, but vice versa the car driver will always be fine! Keep that mind….
alexn wrote:Agree that the
Actually, the whole 4×4 thing isn’t irrelevant. Data from the ABI shows 4x4s (and MPVs) to have a significantly higher than average incidence of insurance claims for crashes. The Volvo XC90 has the dubious distinction of having the second highest number of insurance claims for damage of any model in the UK, beating the average number of claims by a factor of two. It loses out in this respect only to an MPV, the Toyota Previa if I recall correctly.
I’ve two kids and though they’re older now and we no longer need buggies for them, would never have bought a 4×4. The internal space in a 4×4 isn’t that good because of the high floorpan, while the lack of crumple zones in many means that they’re potentially lethal for the occupants in the event of an impact. The higher centre of gravity means they’re less stable while this is exacerbated by the large off-road tyres, and particularly so if as so often is the case, they’re under-inflated. Because the all wheel drive is engaged all the time in most models, they’re also less mechanically efficient and use more fuel than vehicles of a similar weight with a two wheel drive. If you want a vehicle with decent inside space, get an estate car. We have a standard family saloon and had two others prior to that. I find it’s plenty big enough to take me and my son and our bikes inside when we’re racing in other parts of the country. I’ve even had four people plus three bikes inside the car on some occasions when we’ve been going to race a far distance away and I’ve taken other club riders.
A lot of people do have a problem with 4x4s being used in cities, me included. And I know from crash data there’s a good reason for my dislike of them.
Are those insurance claims
Are those insurance claims due to hitting cyclist of just general insurance claims? Plus what does the data reallyshow; such as what kind of damage was done and how, which might not have anything to do with cyclist! I think I agree that many who drive 4×4 might hit a bollard or two due to not knowing their size, I m not sure that 4×4 are more relevant when hitting cyclist or not! But I m unable to back that up with any quality data!
I find that my 4×4 has more space that my previous A4 and 5 series estate, and it feels pretty stable, more so than the A4 at the very least! And yes I agree my 4×4 is far less fuel efficient, but that was at the bottom of my list of requirements when I got it!
And sure I can understand people having a problem with big cars in the city, and with that I m not just saying 4×4, but vans, limousines, family cars, all that are similiar sized. But I think there are plenty responsible drivers who drive big cars and who take extra care when there is a cyclist around. And with myself being a cyclists I defintley take extra care when seeing a cylists, as I have been hit by a car myself a few years back and ended up in an Ambulance and a written off bike, the car that hit me was a small 2door car by the way!
alexn wrote:…
Additionally
Really!!!!! You drive a 4×4 and then claim electric cars are not better for the environment!!!! :O :/
Those batteries are recyclable and the carbon footprint of making an electric car is going to be similar to that of an Internal Combustion Engine car (ICE).
An electric car is obviously going to have a far better CO2 footprint than a non-electric car and for people that need to go long distance and are allergic to trains, there is hybrid cars which allow the use of electric for most journeys.
Because the ICE is so inefficient, electric cars that are powered by electricity produced at coal power stations still emit less CO2.
kie7077 wrote:…
Those
Whilst I want to agree with you, I’m not sure that these statements stand up. there is theoretical ability to recycle EV batteries, but the infrastructure is not really in place yet and it is currently economically uncertain at best.
http://www.waste-management-world.com/articles/print/volume-12/issue-4/features/the-lithium-battery-recycling-challenge.html
You’ve also noted the issue about how our electricity is produced : electrical production efficiency from coal is about 28% which means that you are producing something like 3.5 x the amount of CO2 at the production end. So if you use 20kWh / 100km (Nissan Leaf quoted values) , it’s the equivalent CO2 of 70kWh at the power station. Our alternative mode using fossil fuels has one gallon of diesel containing about 38kWh ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent ). So, if your diesel car can do say 50mpg, you are going to use about 1.2 gallons for 100km, which is approx 46kWh. So thats a fair bit less than the 70 that you have chucked out at the power station. Now, I accept that our production mix is fortunately not all coal, but unless you truly factor in the thermodynamic inefficiencies of electricity production electric cars are not currently a panacea.
You might have noticed I’m not a fan of electric cars – I think they are largely a marketing hype with not much to back them up. The basic issue is that they try to be normal cars, which were designed around a different type of engine and infrastructure and it just doesn’t fit. IMHO.
edster99 wrote:kie7077
Whilst I want to agree with you, I’m not sure that these statements stand up. there is theoretical ability to recycle EV batteries, but the infrastructure is not really in place yet and it is currently economically uncertain at best.
http://www.waste-management-world.com/articles/print/volume-12/issue-4/features/the-lithium-battery-recycling-challenge.html
You’ve also noted the issue about how our electricity is produced : electrical production efficiency from coal is about 28% which means that you are producing something like 3.5 x the amount of CO2 at the production end. So if you use 20kWh / 100km (Nissan Leaf quoted values) , it’s the equivalent CO2 of 70kWh at the power station. Our alternative mode using fossil fuels has one gallon of diesel containing about 38kWh ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent ). So, if your diesel car can do say 50mpg, you are going to use about 1.2 gallons for 100km, which is approx 46kWh. So thats a fair bit less than the 70 that you have chucked out at the power station. Now, I accept that our production mix is fortunately not all coal, but unless you truly factor in the thermodynamic inefficiencies of electricity production electric cars are not currently a panacea.
You might have noticed I’m not a fan of electric cars – I think they are largely a marketing hype with not much to back them up. The basic issue is that they try to be normal cars, which were designed around a different type of engine and infrastructure and it just doesn’t fit. IMHO.— kie7077
The Nissan Leaf was designed from the outset as an electric car. It’s a very good example of automotive engineering. Regarding the actual CO2 emissions surrounding EVs once the emissions from power plants are factored in, I’ve not yet seen a study that covers the topic comprehensively and conclusively.
At their worst though, EVs transfer pollution away from urban areas. And that’s still quite a good thing.
kie7077 wrote:
An electric
Why is it obvious? Think about the bigger picture, not just the car. Those batteries, where are he metals coming from, how are they extracted, what is involved in the processing of them, how easy to recycle, what is being used to generate the power, not what COULD BE but what IS!
I don’t claim to know the answer, I do know that the answer is not clear cut.
What does work in EV’s favour pollution is largely centralised, and hence easier to clean, it is largely produced away from population centres, which reduces but does not eliminate particulates. EV’s still use tyres and brakes which are both an issue.
The best solution is simply not to use cars, a Porsche Cayenne being driven for a hundred miles a year is more environmentally friendly than a Nissan Leaf being driven 100k miles a year.
I think until they create an
I think until they create an electric car that is actually practical for long distances, and with that I mean journeys of 1000km, then until then I stick to my 4×4. 🙂
Additionally, although the car lithium batteries are recyclable, they are not actually recycled as it isn’t cost effective yet. Batterie recycling is cost driven, and currently recycling cost for electric/hybrid car batteries are exhorbit! Big difference between being able to recycle and actually doing so!
And sure the carbon footprint of producing an electric car and a normal car are the same. So I think overall they came out pretty equal in the damage they do to the environment overall…. and I m not talking on emission alone!
I m all for investing into making engines more efficient and environmentally friendly. And once they make a car that is practical size and distance wise, then I will defintley swap over. But I don’t think this is going to happen for a few years sadly!
EVs also create a lot less
EVs also create a lot less noise pollution but this in itself opens another can of worms for cyclists and pedestrians because your aural senses are considerably less effective in being aware of the vehicles approaching.
The children may be less affected by air pollution but are they more likely to be involved in a collision with an EV..?
OldRidgeback i’m not
OldRidgeback i’m not disputing that the Leaf might be a good piece of work – i’m saying it was designed within the paradigm of an internal combustion engined vehicle. Shifting pollution out of urban centres (especially PM10s etc) is a good thing, but as far as the CO2 issue is concerned without renewably sourced electricity they aren’t a winner. And there other concerns to do with the availability of certain rare metals etc needed in these systems which may well be a curb on widespread deployment, as well as the embodied energy in extraction of them.
I think you have to see the
I think you have to see the current EV model as a step towards a change rather than the end. If you get an EV and then buy your power from someone like Scottish Power or Eon with a big coal generating capacity then yes it’s perhaps self defeating, there a few firms that use all or mostly renewables on for electricity so they would, in theory, be a better option. We had to replace a car recently and looked into the Leaf – I know a couple of people with them and they love them – but they are still an expensive option. In the end we got a small 1L car with a stop-start engine that was still in the low emissions, no tax band.
Always confused why it should
Always confused why it should be “roads around schools need to be made safer”? Why not the roads around where the kids live? Why not all roads, so that it safe for kids to roam independently, as they do on the mainland of Europe, and as they used to do here (within my lifetime).
It’s time that adults started taking responsibility for their actions and understood that there is NO right to drive, it is a privilege granted under licence and one that comes with responsibilities. Anyone who feels that they can handle that level of responsibility should be required to hand their licence back. If it is proven that they are not able to drive with due care and attention, the privilege should be withdrawn permanently.
We also need to break the levels of car dependency so that those who are not able to handle the responsibility that comes with a driving licence are not penalised, although they may feel that they are being inconvenienced (which is not at all the same thing).