[nniff]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHvIhC4rcXA

 

Topic

[Jitensha Oni]

oldstrath wrote:

dmack wrote:

zanf wrote:

dmack wrote:

zanf wrote:

A ‘statistic’ (this guy almost was anyway)

Aside from all the “its the cyclists fault / its the HGV drivers fault”, the real direction to point the blame is the terrible infrastructure.

No ASL where most junctions now have them so those cyclists had an expectancy of one being there.

Because of ASLs, cyclists are ‘trained’ to ride up the inside of traffic to get to the head of the junction

The junction quickly filters down from the 2 right hand lanes to 1 (very wide lane) after so you have traffic being squeezed any way.

Because of how that junction is laid out (and a few others along that section of the embankment are also) you can guarantee that this incident has occurred more than once already, its just that with the recent proliferation of cheaper cameras that this is the first time its been shared, or possibly even captured.

Don’t blame the infrastructure.  These guys need to live in the real world where there are pinch points.  As can be seen from all the comments above it was obvious what would happen.  And being crushed by a lorry but thinking you were in the right because you thought the junction should have been designed differently seems a poor trade off.

I’m all for getting cars and lorries off the road but until that happens we need to use of common sense!

 

The only thing that will change behaviours at that, and other junctions, is redesigning the infra.

That isn’t changing behaviours, it’s changing the environment to suit the poor decision making of some cyclists.

So? If changing the environment can help keep people safe even if they make mistakes surely that’s a good thing.

+1

Also, if this the rush hour for commuters/school run why on earth is an HGV allowed to be there? Yeah, I know, that’s life in London yadda yadda – but there are new riders coming onto the streets every day, and some of us think it some of these should be cycling to school on these roads. They need protection. Or should they learn the hard way? Or should they not be allowed on the road until they have been proved to have a) a Bikeabilty intructor’s competence? and b) the Knowledge. Seems to be what most people think given the low levels of cycling outside the 20-50 age group.

/rant

[zanf]

dmack wrote:

dmack wrote:

oldstrath wrote:

dmack wrote:

zanf wrote:

The only thing that will change behaviours at that, and other junctions, is redesigning the infra.

That isn’t changing behaviours, it’s changing the environment to suit the poor decision making of some cyclists.

So? If changing the environment can help keep people safe even if they make mistakes surely that’s a good thing.

It sure is. I was just objecting to zanf’s dodgy logic.

So you agree with the person who has just agreed with what Ive said, and you think I have ‘dodgy logic’?

Youre either purposely being a shitgibbon or you’re genuinely a fucking idiot.

[matthewn5]

oldstrath]

oldstrath wrote:

dmack wrote:

zanf wrote:

[quote=dmack]

The only thing that will change behaviours at that, and other junctions, is redesigning the infra.

That isn’t changing behaviours, it’s changing the environment to suit the poor decision making of some cyclists.

So? If changing the environment can help keep people safe even if they make mistakes surely that’s a good thing.

That’s exactly how they design cars, and motorways: so there’s protection from mistakes. It’s how cycle infrastructure should be designed. Mistakes should not result in deaths on the roads.

That said, appalling bit of cycling. If you’ve got in that position by accident, for goodness sake wait and merge back in when it’s safe.

[dmack]

oldstrath wrote:

dmack wrote:

zanf wrote:

dmack wrote:

zanf wrote:

A ‘statistic’ (this guy almost was anyway)

Aside from all the “its the cyclists fault / its the HGV drivers fault”, the real direction to point the blame is the terrible infrastructure.

No ASL where most junctions now have them so those cyclists had an expectancy of one being there.

Because of ASLs, cyclists are ‘trained’ to ride up the inside of traffic to get to the head of the junction

The junction quickly filters down from the 2 right hand lanes to 1 (very wide lane) after so you have traffic being squeezed any way.

Because of how that junction is laid out (and a few others along that section of the embankment are also) you can guarantee that this incident has occurred more than once already, its just that with the recent proliferation of cheaper cameras that this is the first time its been shared, or possibly even captured.

Don’t blame the infrastructure.  These guys need to live in the real world where there are pinch points.  As can be seen from all the comments above it was obvious what would happen.  And being crushed by a lorry but thinking you were in the right because you thought the junction should have been designed differently seems a poor trade off.

I’m all for getting cars and lorries off the road but until that happens we need to use of common sense!

 

The only thing that will change behaviours at that, and other junctions, is redesigning the infra.

That isn’t changing behaviours, it’s changing the environment to suit the poor decision making of some cyclists.

So? If changing the environment can help keep people safe even if they make mistakes surely that’s a good thing.

 

It sure is. I was just objecting to zanf’s dodgy logic.

[Dr_Lex]

fenix wrote:

I’ve seen this on another forum and everyone there said it was the cyclists fault. 

 

I would like to know who thinks it was the drivers fault and what he could possibly have done to avoid hitting a cyclist he can’t even see ?

don simon in the main thread –  http://road.cc/content/news/225630-video-truck-driver-loses-it-cyclist-after-collision-london – is vocal for the driver being at fault; I won’t try and summarise his views.

 

My view is that these are all regular commuters and know that junction; he was just too slow off the mark and remained in the blind spot. Play stupid games; win stupid prizes.

[Dnnnnnn]

zanf wrote:

Vehlin wrote:

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

Was this a gaggle of idiots, a flock, a herd? What is the collective for cyclists behaving like twats?

A bunch of muppets?

A ‘statistic’ (this guy almost was anyway)

Aside from all the “its the cyclists fault / its the HGV drivers fault”, the real direction to point the blame is the terrible infrastructure.

No ASL where most junctions now have them so those cyclists had an expectancy of one being there.

Because of ASLs, cyclists are ‘trained’ to ride up the inside of traffic to get to the head of the junction

The junction quickly filters down from the 2 right hand lanes to 1 (very wide lane) after so you have traffic being squeezed any way.

Because of how that junction is laid out (and a few others along that section of the embankment are also) you can guarantee that this incident has occurred more than once already, its just that with the recent proliferation of cheaper cameras that this is the first time its been shared, or possibly even captured.

Given the number of cyclists, I suspect that was commuting time and most of them know the junction well, including that there isn’t an ASL. They probably do this every day – but just don’t experience many such large HGVs there.

And as noted by others, you shouldn’t just expect there will be an ASL. You should take sensible decisions based on the facts you have, not your hopes and expectations.

[oldstrath]

dmack wrote:

zanf wrote:

dmack wrote:

zanf wrote:

A ‘statistic’ (this guy almost was anyway)

Aside from all the “its the cyclists fault / its the HGV drivers fault”, the real direction to point the blame is the terrible infrastructure.

No ASL where most junctions now have them so those cyclists had an expectancy of one being there.

Because of ASLs, cyclists are ‘trained’ to ride up the inside of traffic to get to the head of the junction

The junction quickly filters down from the 2 right hand lanes to 1 (very wide lane) after so you have traffic being squeezed any way.

Because of how that junction is laid out (and a few others along that section of the embankment are also) you can guarantee that this incident has occurred more than once already, its just that with the recent proliferation of cheaper cameras that this is the first time its been shared, or possibly even captured.

Don’t blame the infrastructure.  These guys need to live in the real world where there are pinch points.  As can be seen from all the comments above it was obvious what would happen.  And being crushed by a lorry but thinking you were in the right because you thought the junction should have been designed differently seems a poor trade off.

I’m all for getting cars and lorries off the road but until that happens we need to use of common sense!

 

The only thing that will change behaviours at that, and other junctions, is redesigning the infra.

That isn’t changing behaviours, it’s changing the environment to suit the poor decision making of some cyclists.

So? If changing the environment can help keep people safe even if they make mistakes surely that’s a good thing.

[dmack]

zanf wrote:

dmack wrote:

zanf wrote:

A ‘statistic’ (this guy almost was anyway)

Aside from all the “its the cyclists fault / its the HGV drivers fault”, the real direction to point the blame is the terrible infrastructure.

No ASL where most junctions now have them so those cyclists had an expectancy of one being there.

Because of ASLs, cyclists are ‘trained’ to ride up the inside of traffic to get to the head of the junction

The junction quickly filters down from the 2 right hand lanes to 1 (very wide lane) after so you have traffic being squeezed any way.

Because of how that junction is laid out (and a few others along that section of the embankment are also) you can guarantee that this incident has occurred more than once already, its just that with the recent proliferation of cheaper cameras that this is the first time its been shared, or possibly even captured.

Don’t blame the infrastructure.  These guys need to live in the real world where there are pinch points.  As can be seen from all the comments above it was obvious what would happen.  And being crushed by a lorry but thinking you were in the right because you thought the junction should have been designed differently seems a poor trade off.

I’m all for getting cars and lorries off the road but until that happens we need to use of common sense!

 

The only thing that will change behaviours at that, and other junctions, is redesigning the infra.

That isn’t changing behaviours, it’s changing the environment to suit the poor decision making of some cyclists.

[Fifth Gear]

“So who is actually ‘to blame

“So who is actually ‘to blame’ here?

It’s not the individuals – it’s the system. A system that thinks it’s acceptable to mix human beings and enormous vehicles with very limited visibility, and hopes that nobody makes a minor mistake. There simply isn’t any excuse for designing roads that create situations like the one in the photograph above. Those people should be separated from that HGV entirely at this kind of junction.”

Who is to blame

 

[ragnar]

In one way, I’m glad that it

In one way, I’m glad that it was a left turn lane – imagine the outrage if it wasn’t and the cyclists demanded that their piece of turf was recognised by the poor truck driver. 

The fact that these guys probably use this route every day suggests that group think has infected their brain cells and they believe themselves to be omnipotent beings for whom common sense, pinch points and rather large articulated lorries with known blind spots no longer apply. 

No wonder we lose sympathy every time one of us suffers a car related accident if this is the way we are seen to  behave

[fenix]

I’ve seen this on another

I’ve seen this on another forum and everyone there said it was the cyclists fault. 

 

I would like to know who thinks it was the drivers fault and what he could possibly have done to avoid hitting a cyclist he can’t even see ?

[CXR94Di2]

I couldn’t blame the trucker
I couldn’t blame the trucker with what happened. I personally wouldn’t go up the inside of a big open wheel vehicle. I don’t like to be followed either by such vehicles, so would either get another vehicle(car) between me and the truck or pull off to let truck pass.

[Anonymous]

What piss-poor riding by just

What piss-poor riding by just about everyone in that video! 

It seems that my policy of only ever overtaking on the outside, like normal traffic – as that is what I want to be treated like – is something of a rarity. The chance of being doored, a pedestrian stepping out from between stationary vehicles and cars just swinging in as they are looking for traffic to pass on the outside is just too high when undertaking.

Saying that the infrastructure is to blame is naive, if there is cycling infrastructure then use it, but if there isn’t then the normal rules of the road apply, we can’t just make it up as we go along and then be outraged when we find ourselves in danger.

The poor truck driver had no chance and clearly shit himself when he realised what happened. 

I’d have overtaken the line of traffic up to the last vehicle, then sat behind it until the lights changed, then gone past it if it moved slowly or drafted it if it was going quickly, but to undertake a line of traffic, sit in a left only lane with a pinch point in front, alongside an HGV, then trundle along at the same speed as the truck in it’s blind-spot and be surprised when you find yourself in a sticky situation is ridiculous at best.

[zanf]

dmack wrote:

zanf wrote:

A ‘statistic’ (this guy almost was anyway)

Aside from all the “its the cyclists fault / its the HGV drivers fault”, the real direction to point the blame is the terrible infrastructure.

No ASL where most junctions now have them so those cyclists had an expectancy of one being there.

Because of ASLs, cyclists are ‘trained’ to ride up the inside of traffic to get to the head of the junction

The junction quickly filters down from the 2 right hand lanes to 1 (very wide lane) after so you have traffic being squeezed any way.

Because of how that junction is laid out (and a few others along that section of the embankment are also) you can guarantee that this incident has occurred more than once already, its just that with the recent proliferation of cheaper cameras that this is the first time its been shared, or possibly even captured.

Don’t blame the infrastructure.  These guys need to live in the real world where there are pinch points.  As can be seen from all the comments above it was obvious what would happen.  And being crushed by a lorry but thinking you were in the right because you thought the junction should have been designed differently seems a poor trade off.

I’m all for getting cars and lorries off the road but until that happens we need to use of common sense!

Where did I say in my comment anywhere about “getting cars and lorries off the roads”. I would never make such a comment because to suggest such a thing is daft and based in fantasy.

The infrastructure is poorly designed for the exact reasons I stated. Cyclists are conditioned to go up the inside of traffic at junctions. Those junctions along the Chelsea embankment are notorious and the infra does nothing to reduce or even minimise conflict between modes. If anything, it creates conflict due ot the aim that TfL has had for all time of increasing traffic flow.

Sure, you can sit here and blame the cyclists for placing themselves in that position but thats just “blaming the player, not the game”,  is short-sighted and does nothing to rectify the situation. You can sit in your armchair, or even go to that junction every morning for a week and shout at cyclists for placing themselves there but go back the next week and it wil still be happening.

The only thing that will change behaviours at that, and other junctions, is redesigning the infra.

[steviewevie]

You shouldn’t/can’t assume

You shouldn’t/can’t assume there’s an ASL, just because there “might” be one ahead.

If you cycled through that left-hand lane assuming there would be an ASL, and then found there wasn’t one, then you’re an idiot if you try and race ahead of the lorry, because he has right of way and you don’t (from the left-turn lane). So you should be giving the lorry enough space to go past (knowing he doesn’t have the best visibility downwards to his left) and then trying to safely merge behind him. And then you should be making a mental note *not* to always assume there’s going to be an ASL.

 

[Author]

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