Yesterday we published a guest blog by Carlton Reid on why he thinks the Cycling Embassy of Great Britain is a cycling orgnisation too far. Today Jim Davis one of the founding members of the Cycling Embassy responds…
I was a little surprised when Carlton Reid decided to attack the Cycling Embassy of Great Britain yesterday (and on Valentines Day too). He spoke with a World-weary cynicism of someone who knew all about the history of cycle campaigning in this country. Which is exactly why I want to try something new.
He states that the only Embassy policy that is different to other long-established organizations is ‘segregation first’ but I think this is a large fundamental distinction, if completely oversimplified.
The internet is a wonderful thing. It has allowed people to share cycling and also campaigning experiences. Through such sites as Warrington Cycle Campaign’s ‘Facility of the Month’ examples of dreadful, dangerous cycle infrastructure soon became infamous throughout the campaigning world (it’s certainly a highlight of my month). The internet also allowed people to see what was being accomplished in other countries such as the Netherlands and Denmark. With envious eyes, one could see relaxed, cheerful people in normal clothes on cycle streets and dedicated infrastructure. And then wonder why on Earth this isn’t being done over here, let alone being campaigned for.
The way I see it, cycle campaigners were saying ‘no’ to segregated infrastructure because they didn’t want to see any more appalling examples of what a Highways Department can do on crystal meth. Whilst they had a point (despite cycle organisations helping set the guidelines), I don’t believe that just saying ‘no’ and then pointing the public toward cycle training and the works of John Franklin is enough. This rubbish continues to be built, whether CTC or Cycle Nation or all the local campaign groups that it represents like it or not.
There is a bit of a contradiction in Carlton’s argument for us. On the one hand he seems to be saying ‘Don’t campaign for segregated infrastructure. It will never succeed. The CTC & Cycle Nation are pragmatists, and they’re steering well clear of it.’ and on the other, ‘Don’t campaign on the same the things as the CTC & Cycle Nation! You risk division!’. Whilst they make their minds up as to what exactly they represent, we’ll try our own way thanks. A way that the public can get behind.
When the Local Transport White Paper was published, it basically threw all cycle funding out to the provinces where local campaign groups would not only have to scrap for scraps, but also fight the creative interpretations that a Council can place on what constitutes ‘Sustainable Transport’. In essence, widening a road can be ‘Sustainable transport’ as it can be seen to improve traffic flow, which in turn reduces emissions. More crucially, I regard this as a massive smoke screen. It allows the Government to say ‘Look over there!’ and while everyone focuses on cycling issues at a local level, they can widen the M25 to the tune of billions along with more motorway extensions and bypasses utterly hostile to anything without an engine.
I would like to see the Embassy focus at national level, to make sure that best practice is adopted as a standard as opposed to just guidelines that are too open to misinterpretation. I would like to see the basis formed from best practice around the World, particularly the Netherlands and Denmark, which currently manages a modal share that we can only dream of over here. I basically want to give local campaign groups a nice meaty stick to wield for a change.
Improving the way in which bicycle users are consulted could be improved dramatically too (for a laugh, try asking your council for a Safety Audit on a piece of cycle infrastructure local to you that you find dangerous). Above all, I want to see cycling placed firmly back on the transport agenda getting a deserving share of the transport spend. I simply don’t see current cycle organisations pushing in the same direction we are, and certainly not looking across the North Sea for inspiration where the benefits go way beyond riding a bike in comfort and safety. If you don’t ask, you don’t get.
Carlton pointed out that we couldn’t find a cycling ‘Sugar Daddy’ for funding. Quite frankly, the cycling world is the last place I would look to attract funding. We have ideas on where to go and there have been plenty of offers of donations once we get our governance established so the future is very exciting indeed. We are appealing to those that want to cycle as opposed to those that do.
The start up meeting held on the 29th January was very well attended with people coming down to London from such places as Dumfries, Newcastle, Bristol and a handsome chap from Worthing. A saucer was passed around and £80.56 raised to start up a not-for profit company. We came away focused and united and willing to try something new, with slightly lighter pockets.
The Embassy has attracted a lot of support from people that have become angry and disillusioned with current campaigns. We aren’t novices at this. I think that the main problem is that Cycling Organisations are fantastic at communicating to the already converted but spectacularly awful at projecting themselves to a general public that couldn’t give a hoot. It’s nice for people like Carlton to attend self congratulatory campaign conferences and trade shows, because it’s easier to ignore the fact that approximately 97% of the population isn’t listening but might like to. CTC were given a large sum of money a while ago to promote cycling through a cinema advert. The ‘Cyclehero’ campaign to me demonstrates how current organisations fail to grasp the public perception of cycling with the ‘Hero’ as a woman looking like a Marvel comic extra. People just want to get to the shops or the library – they don’t care that cycling saves the environment or improves the nations health or can make you look like Catwoman. They would want a transport mode that is easy and direct without the need for safety equipment.
In conclusion, I certainly don’t want to see the Cycling Embassy being in conflict but rather enhancing older more established cycling organizations as we look at the situation with fresh eyes and specific aims. If we’re wrong, then fine. We shall scuttle back to our campaign groups and blogs from whence we came. But if we’re right, and I know we are, the implications for society as well as the older cycling organizations are as numerous as they are fantastic. I believe you have to kick start a cycling culture by representing the 97% that want to cycle as opposed to the 3% that already do.
Jim Davis is founder of the Cycling Embassy of Great Britain as well as Worthing Revolutions Cycle Campaign Group and the Worthing Cycle Forum. He was Information Officer at CTC over 2002-2003 and still reminisces about his Raleigh Grifter.

66 thoughts on “Cycling Embassy of Great Britain – the ambassador responds”
Thank you for responding,
Thank you for responding, Jim.
I’ve spent 25 years reaching out to non-cyclists, from On Your Bike magazine (aimed specifically at newbies and wanna be cyclists) through to the Bike to Work Book (a 100-page book aimed at newcomers to cycle commuting, available for free). I also edit a trade-funded website for would be cyclists and, for the same website, commissioned the Bike Hub iPhone/Android satnav app to show hesitant cyclists their local cycle paths and quiet roads.
Over those 25 years, pleasingly, I’ve seen more and more people try out cycling for the first time. The market for cycles is growing. Sales of city bikes, cargo bikes, child-carrying bikes are booming.
I don’t live in London but, when I visit, I am constantly amazed at the growth in cycle traffic, despite the less than ideal conditions that cyclists and would-be cyclists have to put up with. I’ve also noticed a key change in the type of riders out there (noticeable in other cities, too). The hardcore commuters have been joined by folks clearly brand new to cycling. Stand at a busy junction in London during morning rush hour and see the stream of cyclists at the head of the queue, very effectively blocking the passing of (sometimes impatient) motorists. Many of these cyclists are no longer the typical hard-core bike commuter but ordinary folks in civvies.
Even without fantastic infrastructure, more and more people are taking up cycling. When the weather gets warmer, even more will join them.
Yes, we need to encourage even more people to cycle but how are you going to do this by creating an organisation based on disparagement of cycling campaigners?
The “old” campaigns, as you put it, have not “failed”, over 120 years they have helped protect our rights to remain on the British road network. Not all roads are suitable for cycle use, and the CTC acknowledges this. In places, segregated infrastructure would be advisable and should be pushed for. CTC is in favour of such infrastructure, when it’s done to standard. Sadly, it’s often not done to standard, and CTC is vocal in its condemnation of poor quality infrastructure.
CTC, like myself, is worried that local councils will instal sub-standard infrastructure and then force cyclists to use it, banning them from roads. This happens in the Netherlands, where use of many cycle paths is obligatory. This works in the Netherlands because standards are adhered to.
The Cycling Embassy of Great Britain may have laudable aims but if so many of them overlap with the aims of the “old” campaign groups why create a new one? And why attempt to weaken the organisations which have spent years and years fighting for our rights?
Creating a new organisation that is based on disparagement of the existing, long-standing ones is not terribly helpful.
Lines like this (from your draft manifesto) do you no favours:
“We believe that existing cycling campaigns, with their emphasis on training, exhortation, minimal infrastructure and bike share schemes, have largely run their course.”
Largely run their course? That is rude, bad PR, demoralising to hard working cycle campaigners and, of course, wrong.
Perhaps a name change is in order? How about just Embassy of Great Britain?
From your manifesto: “Concern expressed that by being a Cycling Embassy, we instantly ‘shoot ourselves in the foot’ for being a cycling campaign.”
You’re meant to be an organisation pushing for segregated cycle routes yet in your manifesto somebody suggests “We could have a tagline suggesting that it’s not just for cycling.”
You want to be a repository of Dutch-style cycle infrastructure standards? Well, watch out on BikeBiz.com for news of a magazine, website, iPad/iPhone app from a German publisher which will do that, with knobs on.
The reason I’m taking the time and trouble to take you to task on the foundation of the Cycling Embassy of Great Britain is because I know the damage that can be done by the dilution of messages: splintering off from the “old” and what you misleadingly call “failed” campaign groups weakens us all. If you truly have cycling’s interest at heart, push for your agenda *within* the existing structures, don’t create new ones. Use your energy and good ideas to liven up the existing campaign organisations. Donate the £80.56 to Sustrans.
On Twitter last night, Bike Portland said this: “While bike advocates argue about helmets, cycle tracks and budget dust, the highway lobby just grins and rubs their hands together.”
We need to stand together, not pull apart in ultimately fruitless schisms.
Whilst I cannot speak for the
Whilst I cannot speak for the CEoGB, I do not see how it could possibly be called “an organisation based on disparagement of cycling campaigners.” If your views are not represented (in whole or in part) by any other cycling organisation, why not start your own. If the idea is popular enough, there is nothing to stop larger organisations such as the CTC from adapting it as their policy.
I think your argument for unity at all costs is deeply flawed. Why should all those who support the CEoGB instead devote their energies to another campaign whose aims are not the same? After all, I do not hear you criticising Sustrans or Roadpeace for being splitters because the CTC is older; they have their own aims and goals, with some of them overlapping and some not. In those cases where their interests overlap, organisations can work together and present a stronger message by their increased number. Where there is no overlap, or a disparity, having organisations which represent people of differing views are inherently necessary. This is only a good thing for cycling as a whole.
I also find it deeply ironic that at the same time you are decrying the CEoGB for its perceived “Splitting” of cycle campaign efforts, you are suggesting that “An overarching governing body for world cycle sport is necessary but it doesn’t have to be the UCI.” Seeing your arguments about the CEoGB, I would expect you to feel it is more important for cycle sport to be “Unified,” even if you don’t feel the UCI is doing things exactly as you would like.
If the CE of GB had been
If the CE of GB had been founded as a fresh, new organisation willing to boost – and perhaps influence – the 120+ year campaigning efforts of CTC, I wouldn’t have had so many bones to pick.
But the draft manifesto, and comments on supporting blogs, are very disparaging about what’s gone on before, as though CTC and LCC etc are the ones responsible for not building Dutch-style bike lanes when, in fact, it’s successive British Governments bolstered by a car-centric society.
Use of words like “failed” and “old” – and on the twitter accounts and blogs loved by CE of GB members, words like “collaborationists” – are disparagement of the highest order.
Modify the language, reject the hate coming from Freewheeler and others, and maybe you can say the CE of GB isn’t based on disparagement.
Wield has an i in it.
Wield has an i in it.
Well done for spotting the
Well done for spotting the deliberate mistake OldRidgeback 🙂
Good Lord, Carlton – if I
Good Lord, Carlton – if I didn’t know what I was reading I would think I had accidentally picked up a copy of Pravda!
Carlton,
I was thinking, on
Carlton,
I was thinking, on my journey in this morning: does cancer have one single body that manages and controls everything?
Do car groups have one over-arching body? Does one organisation represent gardeners in all their many forms?
No, basically. And why should cycling be any different? We can stand together without all standing like sheep behind what many feel is less than effective leadership from CTC, and so many others.
The cancer one is a really
The cancer one is a really good example, Tim.
There are waaaay too many cancer charities, diluting cash across many organisations, all of which have their own expensive CEOs and staff members.
If there were less cancer charities, the fight against charity would be more focussed, less costly of duplicated admin.
We need to stand together,
The CTC are not really interested in applying lessons from the Netherlands here. Try searching for “the Netherlands” on their site, for instance. Naff all comes up.
They are a campaigning organization centred on the interests of their existing members – that is, people who are happy to use the road network as is. Fine. I have no problem with that.
But frankly I think it’s going to be far more “fruitless” for the Embassy to try and swing around the CTC oil tanker, than it is to convince the general public.
There doesn’t need to be an overlap here.
CTC’s 60,000 members are a
CTC’s 60,000 members are a varied and mixed bunch, very few of whom are hardened campaigners for ‘vehicular cyclists’. Most members are just ordinary, family cyclists.
CTC sticks up for the rights of all sorts of cyclists.
CTC fights for segregated bike lanes when necessary:
http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/ctc-fights-removal-of-brighton-bike-lane
CTC fights for segregated
Carlton, that story is truly appalling. I’ve done some digging, and found the document that proposes the removal here
http://present.brighton-hove.gov.uk/mgConvert2Pdf.aspx?ID=9707&T=9
p.210-11.
It’s good that the CTC are fighting this proposal. But I cannot find any reference to the story on the CTC site. Perhaps they should make their opposition a bit more public?
I would also note, in passing, that the “Hierarchy Of Provision” would not have resulted in the creation of that cycle lane in the first place.
Many Road.cc habitues are
Many Road.cc habitues are telling me on Twitter that this particular segregated route now makes riding in the area more dangerous.
Sure, some of them are shaved-leg roadies in non-approved by CE of GB garb, but the episode brings into sharp focus the phrase: “be careful what you wish for”.
Done well, segregation can be excellent. Done badly and it can be a crime against humanity. My point is, and has always been, there are many ways to bring new people to cycling. Segregation is one way but it’s by no means the only way, perhaps not even the best way.
When a local council is told repeatedly their protected bike lane is shite (Bricycles did this) but the local council goes ahead and produces a rubbish lane, how is the CE of GB going to prevent this? How is the CE of GB going to assure cyclists that the segregation being pushed for won’t, in fact, make the situation worse?
It’s all fine and dandy to point councils to David Hembrow’s “excuses” page but the UK is not the Netherlands of the 1970s.
The fact we haven’t got perfect segregation isn’t the CTC’s fault. Even if they asked for it, would they get it?
The CTC hasn’t “failed”. It does an enormous amount of good work. To call it a “failed” organisation and one that has “run its course” is wrong in fact and wrong in sentiment.
“Sure, some of them are
“Sure, some of them are shaved-leg roadies in non-approved by CE of GB garb”
Carlton, do you think you could drop the mud-slinging? It’s not really enhancing your message, especially when you seem to view the practice with opprobrium, and then get stuck in.
Weald – isn’t that somewhere
Weald – isn’t that somewhere in Yorkshire? My CTC membership lapsed years ago but I am a member of a British Cycling affiliated club. I doubt I’ll join another wheeled organisation, however good its intentions as I don’t have enough hours in the day.
We have a Weald and Downland
We have a Weald and Downland Museum here in West Sussex so I think it’s the flat bit between the North and South Downs. There are probably others though. And I could be wrong about the flat bit. Other than that we’re clear!
Jim
Dear Jim
Thank you for some
Dear Jim
Thank you for some clarification regarding the possible working relationship of CEoGB and other campaign orgs. Maybe I missed something, but I couldn’t really find anything about this on material previously put out before today. Indeed, I got the impression that you would be ignoring the likes of CTC, LCC, and Sustrans, which worried me a little.
I haven’t seen anything yet about how CEoGB will do things differently, rather than just stating aspirations. Maybe you’ve yet to decide this, which is fine. And if, in time, you do successfully achieve that, all well and good.
I propose that although CEoGB is, to use your own rhetoric, an ‘anti-cycle campaigning cycling campaign’, existing campaign groups can affiliate with CEoGB, formally or informally, and subscribe to your aims. The role of CEoGB with respect to other cycle campaign orgs might yet have to be determined, but whatever it is, it should of course be complementary.
Personally, I think it’s encouraging and positive to see enthusiasm and activism especially in my favourite sphere, cycle campaigning. Given the reasons for founding the CEoGB, I don’t think another organisation is necessarily the issue. The issue is how it works with fellow organisations.
So in the spirit of cooperation and goodwill I am happy to try and get the LCC groups I have direct involvement with to work with CEoGB, as after all, united we stand… etc.
And I thought there was something funny about ‘weald’.
best regards
Philip
*my* Grifter was a piece of
*my* Grifter was a piece of crap.
@oldridgeback weald/wield not
@oldridgeback weald/wield not sure that’s really the nub of the argument here – it should have read ‘wield’ and it did in the version posted, but our server went down at the same time that Jim’s piece went up – and it took the final version with it… sorry about that Jim, it’s restored now though.
Dave did you think your Grifter was crap at the time? With hindsight I now realise that neither my Raleigh Hustler nor my mate’s Raleigh Chopper were not cycling technology at its Seventies peak… but they seemed more than capable at the time, even with the permanantly slipping second gear on the Chopper’s Sturmey 3-speed.
“I’ve spent 25 years reaching
Good for you (honestly, I mean that 🙂 ). But over those 25 years, not many more people have been converted to cycling – copious stats are available to back that point up – and I suspect of those that have, it’s more been down to those arch-segregationists at Sustrans. Doesn’t that tell you something?
Wow. That’s bonkers. You can’t possibly believe that, can you?
Carlton, whether or not you personally think the CEoGB is a good idea, the number of people posting here saying “I don’t feel represented by CTC et al” shows there is a demand for it. Please stop trying to slap us down. It’s really patronising.
You’re confusing the
You’re confusing the professional CTC bods seen at conferences with the rank and file membership.
Ordinary members of the CTC are, well, ordinary.
Yes, there are some rather odd characters that pull out their CTC memberships cards in bike shops and ask for discounts but these are but a minority.
I’d hazard a guess that most of the ordinary members of the CTC are there for the insurance and other benefits. Only a tiny amount will be interested in the heated debate surrounding helmets, hi-viz, and ‘vehicular cycling’.
I’d also hazard a guess that many rank and file family members of the CTC would love to see mile after mile of high-quality Dutch-style segregated bike routes, as would I.
Disparaging an organisation with 60,000 members will get you where exactly?
Carlton – who said anyone was
Carlton – who said anyone was disparaging the members? I am one(for the mag and the insurance)so I woulddn’t be disparaging myself.
But your “hazard a guess”, apart from reading like the Sun accusing those who oppose our Afghan adventure of “insulting our brave boys” rather than the cowardly pols who put them there, begs the question: if that is the case, why does CTC represent them so woefully?
cat1commuter wrote:I, for
My post was not a reply to your previous post Carlton. I was not talking about CTC members (I’m one myself). I was talking exactly about the campaigners I have met.
That’s quite alright! For the
That’s quite alright! For the record, my Grifter was bright blue with the holographic decals. But then I am an only child. 🙂
@Doctor Fegg hmm… I started
@Doctor Fegg hmm… I started cycle commuting in London getting on for 20 years ago now. Back then I was on nodding terms with the handful of cyclists that I met on my daily commute – when I go back there now I would get a very sore neck indeed if I nodded to all the cyclists I met on the much shorter ride from Paddington Station.
What got me on my bike was low funds and the high cost of getting the tube to work – my guess is that’s the reason most other London commuters get on their bikes too and the fact that the more people you see doing it the more doable you realise it is.
According to the DfT’s own stats cycling has grown – there was a long term decline to stop first (and by the way there’s been controversy about under-counting cyclists on those stats for years too) but it seems to me that cycling’s growth has been patchy it is an urban phenomenon and even here it is concentrated more in the very biggst cities – rural cycling has probably declined, not helped by the fact that according to a DfT funded study of it’s own casualty stats rural roads are by far and away the most dangerous places to cycle.
Tony – couldn’t resist a dig
Tony – couldn’t resist a dig about weald/wield/wheeled. If you were on nodding acquiantance with London’s handful of other cycling commuters 20 years ago that would’ve included me. I’ve still got the same bike, tho my commute’s shorter than it was then.
Going by the casualty rates from the DfT, country roads have the highest statistical crash risk for all road users and that includes cars, trucks and motorcycles.
But do you not see you’re
But do you not see you’re falling into the same trap?
Do you not see the irony in a disparaging post saying “stop the disparagement”?
Do you not see that you’re so close to the argument that your judgement is not entirely impartial? (I mean, I do a whole bunch of cycle campaigning but I had to look up who Freewheeler was. Bringing some random guy into the conversation for no readily discernible reason says “this is all about tribal argument, not about the merits of particular approaches”.)
Take a deep breath. Step away from the keyboard. Let CEoGB get on with doing what they do. You get on with doing what you do. At the moment you are turning the whole debate into XKCD 386.
(For what it’s worth: my personal take on CEoGB is that I’d be surprised if it achieved much as a body in itself (but I’d love to be pleasantly surprised). But what it is already doing is giving those of us who believe in appropriate infrastructure, and doubt the Franklin/HoP gospel, the confidence to say so. Over the last two weeks I’ve noticed there are dozens of campaigners like me who are finally getting the courage to speak up. It’s marvellous.)
I, for one, would welcome a
I, for one, would welcome a campaigning organisation which is a little less beardy, sandaly and fluorescent, and a bit more ambitious.
(No subject)
🙂
@Tony: Indeed. London is
@Tony: Indeed. London is really encouraging. Yet in the large Midlands town where I work, pretty much everyone used to cycle to the town-centre factory (still there and employing people, amazingly). Nowadays, on my daily commute of 1.5 miles each way, I’m lucky to see one other cyclist.
A few reasons seem to have come together at the right time in London: the cost of the tube; the Congestion Charge; judicious investment by TfL under Ken; and I hate to say it, but 7/7 played a huge part. (Ask British Waterways when the tipping point was for cycling use of the Regents Canal.)
We don’t have those in the rest of Britain. Cambridge, York and perhaps (but probably not) Oxford aside, cycling is a trace activity. Getting cycling from 0.1% of local journeys to even just 10% is going to require massive, reconstructive surgery. So let’s not knock the people who are saying “it’s time to try something different” – because it is.
@Carlton: +1 on “there are many ways to bring new people to cycling”, but I think the key point you’re missing is “…and we need to do all of them”. It isn’t “either/or”, and that’s where HoP gets it wrong. If reduced traffic gets us a 10% modal shift, that’s great. If segregation gets us another 10%, that’s also great.
People’s perceptions of danger vary enormously. The CTC/Cyclenation stance has always been to even this out – i.e. “make the roads safe, make people aware that they’re safe”. Great in theory but, as per above, practically impossible in the majority of Britain where utility cycling is non-existent. Segregation says “give the people what they want”.
Yes, bad segregation can make the roads more dangerous for roadies. Similarly, no segregation can make the roads more dangerous for non-roadies. We need to fix that, not to use either as an excuse for doing nothing.
Carlton – regarding the
Carlton – regarding the manifesto, are you looking at the current draft (combined with the mission statement)? It’s here http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/sites/cycling-embassy.org.uk/files/documents/merged%20manifesto%20and%20mission.pdf I’m trying to get it finalised and we’ve modified it quite extensively since the first draft (which was just me throwing some ideas around over Christmas and may have been more strongly worded than it ought to have been – what can I say, I was staying with my in-laws…). I’ve read the latest version through again and there’s nothing that I can see that’s disparaging of previous campaigns, but if you can let me know which bit you don’t like I’ll see if it can be reworded. Once it’s finalised, and it still needs some work, that will be going in a much more prominent place and hopefully some of the misunderstandings that have cropped up can be cleared up.
Please remember that the CEoGB is a very freshly hatched organisation – and among other things the website is very much in its infancy. Please bear with us while we prepare for the official launch…
Is the CEoGB able to confirm
Is the CEoGB able to confirm that UK cycle campaign organisations are in it’s tentative list of partners? E.g. the London Cycling Campaign and/ or branches thereof? I hope so – it’s a glaring omission in the minutes of 29th January.
I would also like to see CE
I would also like to see CE of GB’s policy on mandatory use of cycle paths.
CE of GB supporter Dave42w has said on his blog: “If we have a Dutch quality and style of infrastructure it does not bother me at all if it is a legal requirement to use a cycle facility.”
http://42bikes.warnock.me.uk/2011/02/12/how-to-not-attract-people-to-cycling/
This scares the hell out of me and has always been one of my fears about this debate.
Who decides whether a segregated bike route is genuinely of Dutch quality and therefore will agree with a local council that ALL CYCLISTS should be banned from adjacent roads?
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Benjamin Franklin
@Carlton
It is worth
@Carlton
It is worth remembering that whilst I for example support the CEoGB, what is written on my personal blog are not necessarily the views of the CEoGB. For example, in one of my posts I state that Clement Attlee is one of my favourite politicians, but at present I do not believe that the CEoGB has an *official* “favourite politician.” It is remarkably underhanded to take the opinion of someone who happens to be a CEoGB supporter and falsely present it as the CEoGB line.
It makes you come across as desperate, which I would like to add, is not the *official* CEoGB line as far as I know.
I didn’t say it was CE of GB
I didn’t say it was CE of GB policy. I asked what the official policy might be given one of the members is willing to cede the right for cyclists to ride on roads should a high quality bike path be provided.
Desperate? You bet I’m desperate. Motorists want us off “their” roads and now here’s somebody involved with a nascent organisation who would be happy to sign away cyclists’ rights.
Of course, that person doesn’t have the authority to do any such thing but I would sure like to have it in writing that dave42’s opinions will remain just that.
@Carlton
Personally,
@Carlton
Personally, (personally) given the choice between having the De jure right to ride on a 50 mph dual carriageway or being required to use a segregated facility alongside it built to at least a decent minimum standard, I would choose the latter. The reason for this is because I would never, ever ride along that road as it is at present, even though my right to do so is enshrined in law, I am already De facto banned anyway, with no alternative provided for me. As re-assuring as it is to know that I can ride on the carriageway, I still wouldn’t actually do so.
Realistically, based on the precedents set in UK law by the construction of segregated pedestrian facilities etc, the construction of such a route would not result in a ban on cycling on the accompanying carriageway, because it would be unnecessary as everyone would simply use the segregated route which was built to at least meet the aforementioned minimum standard.
@Carlton
“Treading on toes,”
@Carlton
“Treading on toes,” I believe was taken from a comment I made a while back, except presented in its original context it was actually discussing how we could work with local campaigns.
Interesting.
Many are quick to note that
Many are quick to note that segregated cycle lanes done badly are a nightmare. I agree – they are.
On the other hand, traffic calming measures done badly are also a nightmare.
Road narrowing to slow down traffic that means the cars have no room to overtake cyclists, resulting in frustrated and impatient drivers. Artificial pinch points that mean I have to dive out into the traffic flow to get round them. Or wobble through a narrow gully to the left – which I find nerve-wracking on account of the narrowness and the high kerbs. A line of parked cars on the other side of aforementioned gully so I have to throw myself in front of the cars now accelerating away from the obstacle.
These traffic calming measures are presumably designed to deliver traffic reduction and lower speeds, those preferred options from the oft-cited Hierarchy of Provision. I also presume they weren’t what the CTC and others had in mind when they published the HoP, any more than when the CEofGB proposes dedicated cycling infrastructure it is aiming for the tiny, cratered, and randomly terminating cycle lanes that we are currently stuck with.
Can we at least keep the discussion focused on the relative merits of cycling infrastructure when implemented properly?
I have stated in many, many
I have stated in many, many places that segregated infrastructure done well is a good thing.
My beef with CE of GB is the language used in the foundation documents, calling CTC “old” and “failed” and having “run its course.”
If these terms of abuse are removed from the finalised manifesto, that would be well worth my time and effort.
Who are Carlton Reid and Jim
Who are Carlton Reid and Jim Davis? I mean, I know who they are, but I wonder just who they think they are? Both appear ill-attuned to large portions of the cycling fraternity, and both appear unable to accept that there is more than one way to look at things. Cyclists are a diverse bunch of people – why shouldn’t there be a diverse bunch of organisations? :/
Totally agree with you.
As a
Totally agree with you.
As a diverse bunch of people – but with bikes in common – I’d expect us to be tolerant of our differences and not use disparaging terms in foundation documents.
There’s a very healthy and diverse number of organisations. In public, they don’t call each other names or disparage the work or the history of the others.
In private it’s different but that’s for another posting.
If CE of GB was founded for the express purpose of lobbying for segregated routes, fine. I might even agree with them. It’s the abuse of CTC and LCC that’s uncalled for.
“We believe that existing cycling campaigns, with their emphasis on training, exhortation, minimal infrastructure and bike share schemes, have largely run their course.”
The CE of GB state they want to reach out to, among others, BikeBiz, Road.cc, Mumsnet and the Association of Chief Police Officers.
But not LCC or CTC.
And not local campaign groups because that would be “treading on toes”.
simonmb wrote:Who are Carlton
So true, this just sounds like handbags at 20 paces over who is the “right” type of cyclist –
Popular Front of Judea springs to mind
Carlton, given your stated
Carlton, given your stated issue with ‘disparaging comments’ I found it interesting that you tweeted a link to this article as follows:
@carltonreid: This scares me: segregated route put in, cyclists banned from roads http://bit.ly/ezZo55
Good luck to the CEoGB I hope they manage to get something done.
I have been riding constantly
I have been riding constantly in London since 1981. Before that I was riding in New York City going back to the mid 70’s (think “Taxi Driver” on a bike). In short, I am an urban utility cyclist – to the core.
A few things to say on all this:
– The CTC do some good work but they have never represented me or my aspirations as a cyclist as I have no interest in touring or time trialing. I became a member recently for the insurance alone.
– The LCC have never been attractive to me as I find them too soft. In my view they provide a stakeholder consultation box ticking service to local govt. in return for getting to be the stakeholder. They do not control their local groups enough. Some of them do not do any agitation at all. They often “sign off” on facilities that don’t pass muster… in my view.
– The CEoGB, I think, is trying to reach out to people who are not attracted to the existing cycling groups. People like me perhaps. That may be a good thing.
– I had no idea that I was a “Vehicular Cyclist” untill I did the training to become a Cycling Instructor, three years ago. I very much dislike the way VC is described as a “cult” and “rabid” or such like. I have always used the road because there was never any choise. Now I help others to do the same. It is a precious gift that is for me to give to another. Don’t dis me!
– The existing bodies have not “failed”. They are powerless. We have been failed by successive corrupt government in the sway of powerfull lobbies. It is true that the CEoGB has only aspirations at the moment but that is not a problem… or is it? The segragation vs. intergartion “debate” is utter BS. It’s not either/or. Don’t dis each other!
– Jim has stuck his head above the parrapet(?) and in true british style has come under attack. The test of the worth of the CEoGB will be its membership numbers… It is true to say that they nay appeal to folk who are not catered for at the mo. We will have to wait and see. For my own part, I think we need someone calling for some of that Dutch stuff over here.
– I suspect it will suffer the fate of all UK cycling institutions. That is to be at the whim of succesive uninterested governments. The fall and rise of cycling will be down to larger socio-econimic factors that no org can effect. In the Netherlands they make decisions based on long term stewardship of their nation. We have never done that here.
How will we get from here to
How will we get from here to there: http://www.flickr.com/photos/katsdekker/5437787595/.
A ten-fold increase in cycling’s modal share in ten years, eh, nine years.
How. That’s all I want to know.
Katsdekker wrote:How will we
If opec really can’t pump any more oil £10 a litre for unleaded by 2015 ought to swing it…
Chrisc wrote:
If opec really
+1
They didn’t happen to also
They didn’t happen to also project how the budget would be divided in 2020 between different modes? Would probably be amusing to follow how closely the budget would follow projected path.
Not only are cyclists a
Not only are cyclists a diverse bunch, like me many are different cyclists at different times. Some days I’m a lycra nappy wearing roadie, mostly happily mixing with the traffic and others I’m in ‘civvies’ on a Dutch bike pootling to the shops or cruising around sedately wishing I had Dutch style cycling facilities. Having ridden extensively in the Netherlands I know what I’m missing. Would be great to see a little of it implemented here.
Carlton, please, you’re
Carlton, please, you’re getting ahead of yourself and are, I fear, at risk of making a fool of yourself. I would love to have a friendly and productive argument about these things, but that is currently impossible. I know others who have considered jumping in here too, but have decided against it for the same reason: productive debate is currently impossible here.
1. Calm down, slow down, and go back and read the chain of comments to remind yourself what was said by whom and where, and what exactly they meant. You’ve been emmersed in this argument for several days (and in campaigning for decades). Everybody else has been dipping in only when the time allows. So the things that you’re seeing in these discussions are not the same things that everyone else is seeing. Your comments are jumping all over the place. Each time somebody responds to one of your claims the topic suddenly changes to some other irrelevant claim — I’m sure that’s not deliberate, just a result of this argument being distributed across several posts and mediums, but it makes it rather difficult to follow your reasoning. (And I fear you are losing track yourself as demonstrated with the misinterpretation of Mikael’s “vroom vroom” comment.)
2. Slow down: the CEGB hasn’t even launched yet. It was only even proposed a few weeks ago. The CEGB happens to be engaging in a fantastic exercise in 21st century transparency: it’s composing a manifesto collaboratively in full view of anybody who wants to watch. I don’t think any conscious decision was made to do something so radical: it just seems natural in the internet age. But I guess more should have been done to make it clear what was happening: you’re looking at the drafts and discussions of an organisation that is still in the planning stage. Come back and criticise the manifesto when it has actually been agreed. At the moment you’re criticising phrases and sentiment that individuals within the group proposed be in the manifesto but which they have already decided should not be (and have already removed from the latest revision on the website), often for the same reasons you criticise them. Every organisation has meetings where half-thought through ideas are kicked around — you can’t damn them for the ideas that they then reject.
3. Calm down: please re-read everything you have said about Freewheeler’s comments and attitude, and your attempts to smear CEGB with them. I can assure you that it is not CEGB that comes across as shrill, unhelpful, and uncooperative each time you raise it.
Fool. Smear. Shrill.
Fool. Smear. Shrill. Unhelpful. Irrelevant. Uncooperative.
I’ll get my coat.
Come on, Carlton. That’s a
Come on, Carlton. That’s a bit pathetic. (Perhaps you can add that word to your growing collection of all the bad words that people might have once used about you).
You don’t seem to be alive to the double standards here.
You’re quite happy to call us “segregationists”, but you simultaneously consider the use of the word “vehicularist” to be an epithet.
You don’t like people being disparaged, but you’re quite happy to trot out Dave Warnock’s comment, quote it out of context, and tweet about it being “scary.”
And so on.
This is a debate. It doesn’t seem like you’ve been in one before, judging by how sensitive you seem to be.
Many years ago I worked at
Many years ago I worked at and commuted by cycle to a factory in the Teams area of Gateshead on the way home/to work I would call into the publishing office of a magazine called Bicycle Times to get my copy hot off the press, it was the mid 80s mtbs were new fangled I had just bought one (a cheapie)to commute with along a Sustrans route Carlton Reid had a pink Dave Yates very upmarket he worked for the magazine. He knows what he is talking about listen to him.
Yes, I have a lot of respect
Yes, I have a lot of respect for Carlton Reid. But on this issue I don’t get what he is so agitated about.
This is the (public) peer
This is the (public) peer review process in action! If, as a result of Carlton’s concerns, the CEoGB’s manifesto is a better document, then that’s great.
Which makes me think Carlton’s actually in favour, and wrote his piece to knowingly invoke the Streisand Effect 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
How many people now know about the CEoGB, that otherwise wouldn’t have, because of his article?
Come on Carlton – give the
Come on Carlton – give the CEoGB folks a chance. You have said it yourself that proper segregated infrastructure can be really good. This is the whole point in campaigning for this, to avoid the excuses for cycling provision we get given in this country. There is a third way apart from integrated on one side or pathetically semi-segregated-cheap-soft measure-council excuses for cycling farcilities on the other.
You are a cyclist, I am a cyclist. We both can make our presence felt and integrate on normal roads. My young daughter is not a cyclist but I want to have no second thoughts about her jumping on her bike and going to school. The majority of the public that make short, single occupancy vehicle journeys are not cyclists either. People need to think it is easy and safe and proper infrastructure is the only way to appeal to the masses.
Build it and they will come. I see no other organisation that is really focussed on trying to achieve this other than the CEoGB and it is not a competition as they have stated that they want to work in partnership with other organisations.
would tend to agree that CTC
would tend to agree that CTC and others are not lobbying hard enough for infrasructure that is good enough to get families to their schools and shops by bike. Full marks to those involved in the CEGB for trying to change this. Another year or two on these roads will be enough to kill any enjoyment of cycling in my kids. The way to change this is at a local level but we need a voice nationally arguing for change. The policy doc posted above by cycle nation is so inadequate that it is in itself good enough argument for bringing something like CEGB into being, just send me the membership form.
I’m an LCC member and not
I’m an LCC member and not involved in CEoGB at all but I’ve been watching its development. CEoGB seems to be reflecting everything I think about cycling in the UK and I wish them every success. I’ll be joining as a member as soon as I’m able to.
I’ve lost count of the number of friends and relatives who express an interest in cycling, immediately followed by “but of course I’d be too scared I’d get killed”. I don’t blame them. I’m pretty scared myself sometimes. I genuinely can’t see how my mother, my girlfriends, and my young cousins will ever even consider starting to cycle without proper segregated routes to places they want to go.
The argument that has been going on here seems pretty lame to an outsider. It seems to be all about one person’s perception of being personally insulted, and people on both sides have been needlessly provocative and hysterical. Can we just give it a rest now and let CEoGB get started without hostile tweeting sessions every half an hour? Because everyone has a valuable part to play here, but all of this is making everyone look like a bunch of navel-gazing knobs (forgive the mixed anatomical similies).
On reflection, it seems to me
On reflection, it seems to me that the CTC/LCC and others are primarily concerned with promoting and protecting cycling and that is ALL. That is to say without any political element. An organisation like the CEGB on the other hand is concerned with wider change and sees massed cycling as a means to an end. Is that fair?
If so, then it may be that there is just a fundamental difference that can not be addressed. They are just going for different things at different scales.
I believe that in the case of the CTC, there has been a desire to be explicitly non-political to distance themselves from the association between cycling and socialism that dates from about 50 years ago.
Londonneur wrote:it seems to
I don’t know the CTC as well as I do the LCC but I would most definitely say that is a misperception, if such a view is commonly held. Both orgs work with politicians at a national and local level. And in pursuit of this, several local LCC groups have for a long time worked with other orgs that share similar aims, such as Living Streets or local residents groups, and get involved with initiatives to improve the neighbourhood or urban realm. The need for cycling to appeal to the wider public has long been recognised by many, so underneath all these fretful layers of commentary there is a good deal of consensus.
The view from Cyclenation,
The view from Cyclenation, the federation of cycle campaign groups:- (we don’t have a space between Cycle & Nation, we don’t recognise the difference.)
We sent a board member to the inaugural meeting of the CEoGB and he reported back to our meeting on the 5th Feb. Broadly speaking, we welcome a new voice for cycling, especially if it can reach out to new audiences that traditional cycling organisations have failed to reach. We do however deplore the disparaging remarks that have been made about people who have worked hard for cycling in the UK for a number of years and have actually chalked up some notable successes. We intend to keep an eye on developments.
Simon, Secretary, Cyclenation.
Wow, popular article.
I love
Wow, popular article.
I love the CTC. And John Franklin, and my lovely yellow jacket.
But I also agree with Hembrow – cycling remains a minority activity everywhere, except those places with good infrastructure. That’s been the pattern seen over and over.
Cycling is wonderful, and resilient, but it’s also fairly delicate – it needs support if it’s to flourish.
We need some of that good stuff over here. I’ll keep cycling in my yellow coat, but there’s no way maybe 90% of the population will join me, unless we make it the most attractive option.
And my yellow coat is sadly not that attractive.
Yes, it’s been a really
Yes, it’s been a really interesting read so far… even the vitriolic bits. I’d particularly like to echo emilyobyrne’s comments back on page one about the dangers of traffic calming measures for cyclists – bit of a hobbyhorse of mine. Think I might also take up Jim’s suggestion and ask my local council to do a safety audit on the ones I have to negotiate on my way in to work at the risk of being squished by a speeding bus or lorry eager to accelerate up the hill and out of town – never mind that pinch point and the bloke on the bike.
I still want to ride on the road though.
@ Philiploy
Reading my post I
@ Philiploy
Reading my post I see it is very sweeping. Sorry for that. Of course what you say is true. So I say, “fair enough”. You are very well placed to know after all.
I suppose my feelings (which are only mine and may or may not be widely held) are based on my experiences with my local LCC group. They were petrified of doing anything that might be seen as “political” or “left”. They were up for dealing with the council but only up to a point. Nothing that might upset the apple cart was ever going to happen. I attended numerous meetings with the local authority(corrupt/lazy) which allowed them to say they had “consulted”. In this borough, cycling is seen a Trotskyist plot and they remove facilities at every opportunity. Can you guess where I live? They totally ignored us, of course. I ended up feeling I had done the councillors a favour. It seems non-political to me because promoting cycling alone, despite engaging with authority, doesn’t question the status quo of car dependency. It’s a different and wider issue then just cycling.
Helping those who want to, to ride their bikes is good. Making it better for existing riders is good but to really get 30-40% of journeys is going to take some serious status quo rocking. That level would harm the UK car industry…. now that’s properly political to me. I work full time as a Cycling Instructor so I have put my money where my mouth is on this point. However, I know that what I do won’t get us to where we need to be. My thing is one to one. It’s small scale and personal and very valuable to those who take it on.
I agree with you that under the surface there is a lot of consensus which is where I hope this will all end up. That is to say, “All together now!”. I still have energy for some really constructive efforts but not if what we are going for is nonsense like the Tavistock Place madness in the West End. We need the good stuff….
I sometimes think the lanes/roads debate is really a city/country debate. Where I live we need big segregated lanes, no question. If I was riding on “A” or “B” roads, I wouldn’t want to be forced onto a substandard roadside lane which is certainly what would get built. Fair enough.
I like it that these young turks(sorry CEGB folks) say things like, “We believe that this will bring about nothing less than a transformation of our society.”. It’s nice to hear people talk about society again. It’s just a more political language then I am used to hearing from CTC.
I’d like to see more cyclists. I’d like to see more cycling culture. I’d also like to see the destruction of car culture and it’s hideous effects on our environment and security. My lovely city is stuffed to the gills with concessions to car drivers. It makes it hellish and it is so unnecessary.
Ultimately, there will be fierce resistance to any real change. The increasing aggression toward cyclists in London recently, is only the beginning. We need to be MORE political and ready to upset those who want to maintain the status quo.
Hello Londonneur
If I was to
Hello Londonneur
If I was to hazard a guess as to where you live it sounds like Outer London? If they ‘remove facilities at every opportunity’, probably Barnet? Or Waltham Forest? (Hey, you’re not Fr… oh maybe not, you’re Londonneur!)
Yes, if ‘Young Turks’ manage to stir things up a bit (for a greater good hopefully), I guess this is no bad thing, and by definition it’s not meant to feel comfortable. At our last Lambeth Cyclists meeting I did a quick straw poll with people afterwards during our ‘social’ part of the evening. The view that LCC should be more radical was a bit wider than I thought. As to another organisation forming, there were some quite sanguine views: ‘let a thousand flowers bloom’ was one quote.
The political point is interesting. I’m involved with the LCC in Kensington & Chelsea, and the political rhetoric I try and use with councillors there is one they understand. Thus, the bicycle is about ‘personal choice/ freedom’, or about boosting the local economy, or yes the Big Society why not?
Thing is, the bicycle can be a good for either the political left (bicycle as a means of emancipation for the common folk) or the right (bicycle as a tool of libertarianism). Use the rhetoric of the bicycle to suit the audience.
The rhetoric of ‘society’ by the way is very LCC, but it appears that hasn’t been communicated widely enough.
Destruction of car society may be a tall order. Even the Dutch and the Danes haven’t managed that.
@Philiploy
You clearly know
@Philiploy
You clearly know your outer districts… I am not Freewheeler (Freewheeleur) but I feel her pain. Or is that, “his”? Hmmmmmm… Perhaps I should start a new blog…. “Bollocks Biking in Barnet”.
Agree that one can sell cycling in a number of ways. Sometimes you just have to tell it like it is tho. I once went for a meeting with some of the local councillors and lawyers. I asked them if they were prepared to acknowledge that there needed to be change in policy around cycling in the bourough since there were almost no cycling facilities. They were not even asking for their allocation from TFL for cycle racks…. Mr Bellend (name changed to protect the guilty) told me that there was no demand for them and that drunks use them for seats. I then aksed him why we were all sitting there? Our LCC lot were the only people in the room not being paid to attend. Know the feeling? These lot will never shift unless the order comes from above.
Lots of new riders in London… It’s time to go for it and just say, “hey! This is broken”… don’t sweeten the pill. Let’s just ask for what we really want. Less road space for cars and more for bikes.
“Destruction of car society may be a tall order. Even the Dutch and the Danes haven’t managed that.”
Actually, they have done… or near to it. I’m not for destroying cars or society. I love mine. It helps me do all sorts of things that would be way too dred to do by bike. It’s the culture that puts the needs of drivers first that I want to see the back of. It’s quality of life for the people who live by the road vs. people who happen to drive through. The Dutch have their priorities straight so Yes they have tamed car culture. People there CAN make different choises and they do. Sometimes they use their cars too.
“Build it and they will come.
“Build it and they will come. I see no other organisation that is really focussed on trying to achieve this other than the CEoGB…” I forget who wrote that, but there’s lots of people writing that nobody prior to CEGB has been really pushing for segregated cyclepaths.
Have none of these people ever heard of SUSTRANS ???!!!
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s my impression that SUSTRANS have been not only calling for but actually building segregated facilities for years. The only trouble is, they get forced into compromises that result in these facilities falling a long way short of Dutch or even average European standards.
I read that CEGB will be uncompromising in its demands for nothing less than the Dutch state of the art. Very good. In that case I will judge them by the quality rather than the length of new path constructed. But before we build any new ones, should we not bring what we’ve got already up to those Dutch standards?
Supporters of the CEGB pooh-pooh suggestions that campaigning for cyclepaths may lead to cyclists being banned from the road. Well actually, it’s already happening.
A very good, I mean bad, example is the A90 between Edinburgh and the Forth Bridge. The cycling alternative is a twisty, hilly, badly surfaced and in places less than 1 metre narrow path, that bumps up and down kerbs where it gives way to sundry side roads and driveways. The local CTC didn’t think that was good enough and proposed that before cyclists were banned from the A90, a segregated cycletrack should be built to standards of width and surfacing as per other European countries. But since SUSTRANS thought the aforementioned cyclepath was good enough to be part of the National Cycling Network, their demands were ignored.
That’s what happens when the cycling voice is fragmented. Divide and rule by car-centric authorities. Fast riders lose the road and slow riders get a rubbish path that only confirms that cycling to work is a rubbish choice.
So there’s a first priority for CEGB: get us a Dutch-quality cyclepath alternative to all the sections of general-purpose road where cycling is already banned. There at least, we have nothing to lose.