S.O.S for a little girl.

Leviathan wrote:

I didn't vote for Brexit, or Trump of course, but it has lead to a rise in far-right violence and anti-Semitism. Was that the intention of the voters, mostly no, but the far-right was emboldened. Call it the Butterfly Effect if you will, but what you do does have effect on the world and every time you bend the law, look the other way, can't be bothered to vote, run a red light on pedestrian lights, other people take note and adjust their view. The Greeks had many years to admit they cooked the books, many years to put their house in order. Post rationalization is a wonderful form of political nostalgia: "Well of course there was no £350m," "We though Trump would be different once he was elected" NO you don't get off the hook, you had the information at the time but ignored it, you are complicity, you chose this.

Well, exactly, those who uncritically supported the EU for all those years, while failing to address it's multiple dysfunctions, and who failed to avert the Euro fiasco, don't get off the hook when those failures led to Brexit.

The Euro was a bad idea, badly executed, and run far too much with the interests of the Northern European (especially German) elites in mind. Brexit, undoubtedly itself a very bad idea, was partly a consequence of that cock-up.

Leviathan wrote:

Davel, I don't know what gave you the impression that I don't know about the subject; perhaps it is more likely you didn't like what I said so decided I must be ignorant, the fallacy of opposition.

Bit from column B, more from column A.

I think you know more than this quote suggests, and suspected you were being glib, but then, you typed the words, so I called you out on it.

"If the Greek government (over many decades) enforced taxation and a normal retirement age then you wouldn't be in so much debt. Maybe your health system would be adequate to help this little girl if many of your people did not condone a culture of back-handers."

I'm not saying this isn't a factor, but the omission of many others (Greece's post-war history and the type of political parties they've had, the EU and recent austerity, their inability to drop out of the Euro and devalue their own currency when EVERYONE could see that was the best path) makes the poster, on face value, appear woefully ignorant.

By the way, I noticed you also mentioned the 'C' word. I really don't see a conspiracy in this. I don't think it was the master plan of Goldman Sachs to shaft Greece or take over the EU. But they do have a history of behaving dismally. They have a policy of taking on ex-senior politicians, including of the EU/Commission, and many of their management now have very senior EU/member nation/Commission posts.

Again, this in itself isn't a conspiracy, and in this, GS aren't doing anything 'wrong'.

What it is, is a counter to people who think that the EU is still the post-WW2-let's-not-fight-anymore club. The pervasive worldview, if there is one, is more likely to be that banking and capital is what makes the world go around and must be supported at all costs. I think we saw that with Greece, and the austerity-led shit that has happened there so that, ultimately, an arbitrary number could be plugged into European banks' balance sheets, convinced me that the EU isn't what it should be - and can no longer be what it should be.

Disclosure: I'm not an 'all banks are bad' hippy. I've made a tidy living working for banks for the last 15 years - initially for the UK's (Europe's and also the world's, for a time) biggest bank, then for one of the US's biggest (not Goldman but we did a lot of business with them), and currently at a European bank, passported into the UK - working on implementing EU regs, at the mo. Banks are needed, but I don't think there should be a revolving door between them and the bodies that have to hold them to account. Brexit could yet be a horror show for my circumstances, but I voted on principle.

Plus I don't like Romanians. *joke*

hawkinspeter wrote:

I can't believe you just told dottigirl to fuck off. Shame on you.

It was called for via sanctimonious twaddle. Over on Madeleythread, people are debating insurance Ts&Cs. It's relevant to cycling, but jeezzzzzzzz.

Besides, it's just bantz, otherwise you would have fucked off.

dottigirl wrote:

You all seem to have forgotten that THIS IS A CYCLING WEBSITE. 

I don't think it's heartless to say that pleas for totally unrelated personal tragedies shouldn't be on this site. I'm sure we could find a lot of other deserving causes which actually have a cycling link.

e.g. http://wheelsforwellbeing.org.uk/

Things I have read about on this forum:

- unrelated disabled stuff

- sporty soft porn

referenced by you.

I haven't got a problem with that, but I'm bringing it up now because you're being narrow-minded and hypocritical, because you don't think THIS topic belongs on here.

So you can fuck off too. It's the day for it.

davel wrote:

So you can fuck off too. It's the day for it.

This made me just snort really loudly and caused some funny looks.

TerreyHill wrote:

This really is turning into the Daily Mail of cycling websites.

yeah it is... who's to blame?

Leviathan wrote:

If the Greek government (over many decades) enforced taxation and a normal retirement age then you wouldn't be in so much debt. Maybe your health system would be adequate to help this little girl if many of your people did not condone a culture of back-handers.

I'm sorry, but your comment was uncalled for and insensitive.  People don't have a choice what country they live in, they're born there and prefer to live where they are born and accustom to, and to blame someones country for their inadequacy is lunacy, then on top of all of that you blame the little girl's situation on her people.  I'm glad the little girl didn't see your message.  Why not try to offer some hope for her and her family instead of belittling their country?

Makes me wonder what perfect country you're from Leviathan?

froze wrote:

Leviathan wrote:

If the Greek government (over many decades) enforced taxation and a normal retirement age then you wouldn't be in so much debt. Maybe your health system would be adequate to help this little girl if many of your people did not condone a culture of back-handers.

I'm sorry, but your comment was uncalled for and insensitive.  People don't have a choice what country they live in, they're born there and prefer to live where they are born and accustom to, and to blame someones country for their inadequacy is lunacy, then on top of all of that you blame the little girl's situation on her people.  I'm glad the little girl didn't see your message.  Why not try to offer some hope for her and her family instead of belittling their country?

Makes me wonder what perfect country you're from Leviathan?

I assume that is a rhetorical question.

Perhaps you haven't been following the Greek crisis closely as of late. Perhaps investigate the black market and Greek benefits. Paul Mason is a wonderful correspondent.  I am not blaming the little girl for her situation, but her inability to get local treatment is another matter. I am quite confident the girl won't see my post, in fact who would on a British cycling website? Perhaps I shouldn't have posted my comment, but rather 'Watch out this guy is probably a fraudster.' Is that better?

Leviathan wrote:

froze wrote:

Leviathan wrote:

If the Greek government (over many decades) enforced taxation and a normal retirement age then you wouldn't be in so much debt. Maybe your health system would be adequate to help this little girl if many of your people did not condone a culture of back-handers.

I'm sorry, but your comment was uncalled for and insensitive.  People don't have a choice what country they live in, they're born there and prefer to live where they are born and accustom to, and to blame someones country for their inadequacy is lunacy, then on top of all of that you blame the little girl's situation on her people.  I'm glad the little girl didn't see your message.  Why not try to offer some hope for her and her family instead of belittling their country?

Makes me wonder what perfect country you're from Leviathan?

I assume that is a rhetorical question.

Perhaps you haven't been following the Greek crisis closely as of late. Perhaps investigate the black market and Greek benefits. Paul Mason is a wonderful correspondent.  I am not blaming the little girl for her situation, but her inability to get local treatment is another matter. I am quite confident the girl won't see my post, in fact who would on a British cycling website? Perhaps I shouldn't have posted my comment, but rather 'Watch out this guy is probably a fraudster.' Is that better?

Well it's clear you haven't been following too closely.

Research which countries export the most to Greece and benefited most from its inception into the EU.

Research which vampire squid of a bank has its ex-employees scattered throughout the EU and helped Greece cook its books to enable membership.

Research the key reasons that the troika held Greece's hand to the fire during debt and Grexit 'discussions', and where the banks that hold the debt are based.

Research what has happened to the Greek employment, suicide, HIV and AIDS rates (mainly among the young 'uns) since the credit crisis

Then you might not put the blame at Greece's door in such a simplistic manner.

davel wrote:

Well it's clear you haven't been following too closely. Research which countries export the most to Greece and benefited most from its inception into the EU. Research which vampire squid of a bank has its ex-employees scattered throughout the EU and helped Greece cook its books to enable membership. Research the key reasons that the troika held Greece's hand to the fire during debt and Grexit 'discussions', and where the banks that hold the debt are based. Research what has happened to the Greek employment, suicide, HIV and AIDS rates (mainly among the young 'uns) since the credit crisis Then you might not put the blame at Greece's door in such a simplistic manner.

I hate it when people post about "do your own research". This is a well known tactic used by conspiracy buffs to hoodwink people with poor researching skills into believing a whole load of tripe (e.g. chemtrails, flat earth, electric pyramids etc).

If you've done any research and have knowledge, then share it around, otherwise shut up about it.

hawkinspeter wrote:

davel wrote:

Well it's clear you haven't been following too closely. Research which countries export the most to Greece and benefited most from its inception into the EU. Research which vampire squid of a bank has its ex-employees scattered throughout the EU and helped Greece cook its books to enable membership. Research the key reasons that the troika held Greece's hand to the fire during debt and Grexit 'discussions', and where the banks that hold the debt are based. Research what has happened to the Greek employment, suicide, HIV and AIDS rates (mainly among the young 'uns) since the credit crisis Then you might not put the blame at Greece's door in such a simplistic manner.

I hate it when people post about "do your own research". This is a well known tactic used by conspiracy buffs to hoodwink people with poor researching skills into believing a whole load of tripe (e.g. chemtrails, flat earth, electric pyramids etc).

If you've done any research and have knowledge, then share it around, otherwise shut up about it.

Oh fuck off.

You really don't want me to post this in its entirety, but for the eejits who can't infer the key points:

Greek debt crisis led to massive spikes in HIV, AIDS, suicides and unemployment among innocent citizens, mainly of the younger generation who hadn't had a chance to tax dodge. Hence the idiocy of the 'if you hadn't dodged tax...' argument, one not espoused by Paul Mason (name checked by Leviathan).

German and French (mainly) banks held most of the debt that the troika were chasing down - the troika that was peppered with Goldman Sachs employees, the same Goldman Sachs that encouraged Greece to fiddle their accounts to get EU and Euro membership in the first place. The troika, Germany (Schauble being the bulldog) and the EU, during negotiations with Greece, decided that bouncing back to the drachma was not an option, and that a certain number of Greek lives being fucked via the ongoing austerity was worth the banks receiving a certain amount of their debt back.

Germany stood to gain massively through its exports (incl defence) to Greece being in the same currency. They turned a blind eye to the dodginess during the Greek accession.

If you think that's flat earthery, I salute the naivete of your worldview.

davel wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

davel wrote:

Well it's clear you haven't been following too closely. Research which countries export the most to Greece and benefited most from its inception into the EU. Research which vampire squid of a bank has its ex-employees scattered throughout the EU and helped Greece cook its books to enable membership. Research the key reasons that the troika held Greece's hand to the fire during debt and Grexit 'discussions', and where the banks that hold the debt are based. Research what has happened to the Greek employment, suicide, HIV and AIDS rates (mainly among the young 'uns) since the credit crisis Then you might not put the blame at Greece's door in such a simplistic manner.

I hate it when people post about "do your own research". This is a well known tactic used by conspiracy buffs to hoodwink people with poor researching skills into believing a whole load of tripe (e.g. chemtrails, flat earth, electric pyramids etc).

If you've done any research and have knowledge, then share it around, otherwise shut up about it.

Oh fuck off.

You really don't want me to post this in its entirety, but for the eejits who can't infer the key points:

Greek debt crisis led to massive spikes in HIV, AIDS, suicides and unemployment among innocent citizens, mainly of the younger generation who hadn't had a chance to tax dodge. Hence the idiocy of the 'if you hadn't dodged tax...' argument, one not espoused by Paul Mason (name checked by Leviathan).

German and French (mainly) banks held most of the debt that the troika were chasing down - the troika that was peppered with Goldman Sachs employees, the same Goldman Sachs that encouraged Greece to fiddle their accounts to get EU and Euro membership in the first place. The troika, Germany (Schauble being the bulldog) and the EU, during negotiations with Greece, decided that bouncing back to the drachma was not an option, and that a certain number of Greek lives being fucked via the ongoing austerity was worth the banks receiving a certain amount of their debt back.

Germany stood to gain massively through its exports (incl defence) to Greece being in the same currency. They turned a blind eye to the dodginess during the Greek accession.

If you think that's flat earthery, I salute the naivete of your worldview.

I had to read that carefully before upvoting to check that it didn't stray into conspiracy theory territory, but it didn't. The story is hardly secret.

It is quite obvious that Greece didn't get into the Eurozone without the agreement and tacit co-operation of the dominant powers in the EU. Not to mention the fact that the Greek bailout was effectively just yet another bank bailout (mostly of German banks).

And then there's the obvious way the economics of the Eurozone have worked out - Germany needs a market for its exports because its domestic consumption (being deliberately kept low by means of wage-stagnation for German workers) can't possibly soak up its production. Thus the rest of the Eurozone almost inevitably had to run a deficit, as it's conceptually contradictory for everyone to have a surplus.

Debt crises always have two sides, lenders are usually even more irresponsible than the borrowers, especially when they believe they are too big to fail. Just as with the crappy mortgage crisis in the US that started the last financial crisis.

Ordinary Greeks perhaps could be blamed for not long ago doing something to deal with the corrupt behaviour of their elites. But that's quite a difficult thing to accomplish.

davel wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

davel wrote:

Well it's clear you haven't been following too closely. Research which countries export the most to Greece and benefited most from its inception into the EU. Research which vampire squid of a bank has its ex-employees scattered throughout the EU and helped Greece cook its books to enable membership. Research the key reasons that the troika held Greece's hand to the fire during debt and Grexit 'discussions', and where the banks that hold the debt are based. Research what has happened to the Greek employment, suicide, HIV and AIDS rates (mainly among the young 'uns) since the credit crisis Then you might not put the blame at Greece's door in such a simplistic manner.

I hate it when people post about "do your own research". This is a well known tactic used by conspiracy buffs to hoodwink people with poor researching skills into believing a whole load of tripe (e.g. chemtrails, flat earth, electric pyramids etc).

If you've done any research and have knowledge, then share it around, otherwise shut up about it.

Oh fuck off. You really don't want me to post this in its entirety, but for the eejits who can't infer the key points: Greek debt crisis led to massive spikes in HIV, AIDS, suicides and unemployment among innocent citizens, mainly of the younger generation who hadn't had a chance to tax dodge. Hence the idiocy of the 'if you hadn't dodged tax...' argument, one not espoused by Paul Mason (name checked by Leviathan). German and French (mainly) banks held most of the debt that the troika were chasing down - the troika that was peppered with Goldman Sachs employees, the same Goldman Sachs that encouraged Greece to fiddle their accounts to get EU and Euro membership in the first place. The troika, Germany (Schauble being the bulldog) and the EU, during negotiations with Greece, decided that bouncing back to the drachma was not an option, and that a certain number of Greek lives being fucked via the ongoing austerity was worth the banks receiving a certain amount of their debt back. Germany stood to gain massively through its exports (incl defence) to Greece being in the same currency. They turned a blind eye to the dodginess during the Greek accession. If you think that's flat earthery, I salute the naivete of your worldview.

Why not just say all that in the first place? 

Kadinkski wrote:

davel wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

davel wrote:

Well it's clear you haven't been following too closely. Research which countries export the most to Greece and benefited most from its inception into the EU. Research which vampire squid of a bank has its ex-employees scattered throughout the EU and helped Greece cook its books to enable membership. Research the key reasons that the troika held Greece's hand to the fire during debt and Grexit 'discussions', and where the banks that hold the debt are based. Research what has happened to the Greek employment, suicide, HIV and AIDS rates (mainly among the young 'uns) since the credit crisis Then you might not put the blame at Greece's door in such a simplistic manner.

I hate it when people post about "do your own research". This is a well known tactic used by conspiracy buffs to hoodwink people with poor researching skills into believing a whole load of tripe (e.g. chemtrails, flat earth, electric pyramids etc).

If you've done any research and have knowledge, then share it around, otherwise shut up about it.

Oh fuck off. You really don't want me to post this in its entirety, but for the eejits who can't infer the key points: Greek debt crisis led to massive spikes in HIV, AIDS, suicides and unemployment among innocent citizens, mainly of the younger generation who hadn't had a chance to tax dodge. Hence the idiocy of the 'if you hadn't dodged tax...' argument, one not espoused by Paul Mason (name checked by Leviathan). German and French (mainly) banks held most of the debt that the troika were chasing down - the troika that was peppered with Goldman Sachs employees, the same Goldman Sachs that encouraged Greece to fiddle their accounts to get EU and Euro membership in the first place. The troika, Germany (Schauble being the bulldog) and the EU, during negotiations with Greece, decided that bouncing back to the drachma was not an option, and that a certain number of Greek lives being fucked via the ongoing austerity was worth the banks receiving a certain amount of their debt back. Germany stood to gain massively through its exports (incl defence) to Greece being in the same currency. They turned a blind eye to the dodginess during the Greek accession. If you think that's flat earthery, I salute the naivete of your worldview.

 

Why not just say all that in the first place? 

It was all there in my first post - just not spelled out. That some people need to read The Ladybird Book of What Just Happened In Europe isn't really my fault.