Earlier this week, ITV’s This Morning invited two guests on to debate the increasing popularity of helmet cams in a segment entitled ‘Shaming Britain’s drivers – cycling vigilante’. The portion of the show in question is currently available to watch via the ITV Player.
The segment opens with the footage of a woman caught eating a bowl of cereal while driving which was recently uploaded by cycle instructor, David Williams. Williams was subsequently the subject of a Daily Mail article by Michael Gove’s wife, Sarah Vine, which branded people who use helmet cameras the "Cycling Stasi." In the article, Vine described those who used helmet cams as "infuriatingly, throat-throttlingly, red-mist-inducingly smug."
The two people involved in the This Morning debate were Dave Sherry, a bus driver and cyclist who earlier this year claimed that his footage had resulted in around 50 convictions, and journalist Angela Epstein. A frequent guest on television debates, Epstein was also the ghost writer of The Art of the Loophole: Making the Law Work for You by celebrity lawyer Nick Freeman.
“First of all, I don’t like vigilantism,” she begins, before addressing Sherry directly.
“You say you keep your eyes on the road. I’m sure you try and do that. I don’t see how you can be a law-abiding cyclist and at the same time kind of try and police everybody else. This smacks of kangaroo justice.”
Epstein concedes that there are motorists who do ‘incredibly stupid things’ and points people towards a recent Daily Telegraph article of hers in which she argued that drivers should be obliged to switch off their phones altogether and that even hands-free phone use can be distracting.
However, while she at one point says that ‘not all’ cyclists are ‘horrendous’ on the roads, that sense of perspective seems lacking when she later describes how she had observed the cyclists on London’s roads in the taxi on the way to the studio. “They’re absolutely shocking. They just don’t care,” she says.
Epstein believes that, “one can cycle badly, cause an accident and more often than not it will be the driver that will be at the very least prosecuted.”
She also appears to believe that cyclists are somehow exempt from criminal charges whereas there is “a whole canon of driving law” and questions why there is no cyclists’ equivalent to a driving test.
“They’re not obliged to do the things that we have to do to ensure that we understand road safety. If you want to campaign for something – look at everybody who’s anywhere near the roads. Make there parity there because cyclists can be even worse than motorists.”
In response, Sherry – who drives professionally – repeats a point he has made earlier, that in a collision between a car and cyclist, the cyclist will always come off worse. It is unclear whether the implications of this message are fully understood by those around him.

102 thoughts on “Rise of cycle cams debated on This Morning”
Quote: It is unclear whether
But as a cyclist you are just one of ‘Them’, especially to (what I believe to be) the typical viewer of This Morning, and so it doesn’t matter.
Epstein is your typical
Epstein is your typical “prisoner-of-the-car” person.
“Whole canon of driving law”? Does that only apply to car drivers? Or is she talking about the rules and regulations of the road, which apply to us all, however we use them.
“They’re not obliged to do the things that we have to do to ensure that we understand road safety.” Really? You think you know more about road safety than a cyclist?
“I don’t see how you can be a law-abiding cyclist and at the same time kind of try and police everybody else. ” Part of being a cyclist involves having 360 degree vision and knowing what else is going on around you. The cameras just run, you don’t have to “operate” them, which means you can concentrate on the road and the other vehicles. AGH! And how many drivers use their mirrors before they maneouvre? Some of them can’t even be arsed to indicate! And has she heard of SMIDSY?
I don’t have a camera on my bike; the standards of driving around me are shocking and infuriate me, but I still enjoy riding my bike. Most of the time it is out on the quiet country lanes of Sussex, but I do sometimes seek out busy traffic. I ride assertively, but with regard and respect for everyone else. I thank those that make time for me, I pull over if I think I am causing a long delay for others, and I go mental with those that don’t think I “matter”.
@Daveyraveygravy
Nail on head
@Daveyraveygravy
Nail on head – 100% agree
Not fecking Dave Sherry, who
Not fecking Dave Sherry, who made him lord and saviour of all cyclists. I for one wish he would disappear and stop trying to be some sort of TV star, every time I’ve seen him, he’s enforced to me why some drivers hate cyclists, it is because they all think we are dicks like him X(
Gkam84 wrote:Not fecking Dave
That may be true, but I’m unsure anyone can stoop as low as Angela Epstein. I think the Manchester Evening News stopped enabling comments on stories because the utter turd that she wrote would be torn apart by readers as soon as she had clicked ‘publish’.
Any ‘debate’ that includes the word vigilante is usually just inflammatory nonsense.
Gkam84 wrote:Not fecking Dave
“his footage had resulted in around 50 convictions”
there’s probably another 50 drivers who also wish he would disappear, but the fact is, he’s probably made them disappear off the roads!
like him or not, and i have no opinion on the matter as I’ve not read nor heard him, he is taking actual action against what he sees as dreadful driving, and fair play to him I say.
I knock on car windows if I’m riding past and they are on phones, and just for lols I like to lean on my car horn as I overtake drivers on their phones, helps to disrupt their conversation a little 😉
themartincox wrote:Gkam84
Those are just claims of 50 convictions and warnings, which he himself has quoted a number of times, depending on the interview or programme, he says 60 and 70. I’ve yet to see any proof to any convictions from his footage at all. I’m fairly sure he’ll have a few, but his claims are never backed up.
themartincox wrote:there’s
I don’t believe that for a second. Courts go out of their way not to hand out driving bans. And plenty still drive if they are banned.
I’ve read and listened to
I’ve read and listened to some absolute junk in the last week, but I won’t sink so low as to watch daytime TV.
What about the huge rise in
What about the huge rise in dash cams? Are they going to describe these drivers as “Driving Stasi” and bringing Kangaroo justice?
A lot of drivers have dash cans for many of the same reasons – evidence collection in the event of an incident.
Just saying…
Whatever one thinks of
Whatever one thinks of Sherry’s method, the cyclist is the vulnerable road user here; so dangerous acts by motorists are arguably best in the open, and perhaps less likely to be repeated. I don’t think capturing and bringing to light dangerous driving is ‘vigilantism’ – taking the law into one’s own hands in some way may well be, but that’s different.
I don’t go out of my way to
I don’t go out of my way to record incidents, I simply record what happens going to a destination. Everything I film is in the public domain.
What drivers forget is that whilst a cyclists records moments of other road users behaviour, they records all of their own. If the cyclist breaks the law (s)he’s gifting the authorities with the evidence. It works both ways.
I have no sympathy for drivers. They’re upset that they can no longer break the law with anonymity. If they think it’s one sided, they can get a dash-cam. Many won’t because it will expose their crap driving.
roadcc seem to be a bit late
roadcc seem to be a bit late to this particular party.
But for those who missed the Twitter outrage over this, they should note that the bio for the harpy Epstein contains this gem
Angela is also a columnist for the Jewish Chronicle and last year was the ghost writer of The Art of the Loophole: Making the Law Work for You by celebrity lawyer Nick Freeman (published by Hodder & Stoughton) http://www.angelaepstein.co.uk/bio/
So complaining about people on bikes when you’ve earned money by helping to explain to motorists how to cheat justice is a tiny bit fucking rich & hypocritical
Why oh fcuking why, do you
Why oh fcuking why, do you only hear the word Vigilante when it involves video footage from a cyclist? You never ever hear it on any of the millions of other Pish Poor driving clips posted from vehicle cams, only ever cycle cams. Its just a lame ass defense mechanism due to being shown up to being a complete tit by someone who doesn’t pay “roadtax”? 8>
These complaints seem to just
These complaints seem to just highlight how many motorists have simply gotten used to being able to get away with things, so the likes of this “journalist” have developed an inflated sense of entitlement.
I see motorists dangerously breaking the law most days (just yesterday nearly got knocked down crossing the road as a pedestrian, by a driver who had decided to dodge a queue of traffic at the lights by jumping a red while driving on the wrong side of the road on the wrong side of a pedestrian island).
Fortunately for them I’m too cheap and lazy to bother with a cycle or pedestrian cam.
Does she also moan about supermarkets having CCTV so she can’t freely shoplift?
FluffyKittenofTindalos
And knowing that you’re more likely to see the abominable snowman than a traffic policeman doesn’t help with that ‘sense of entitlement’ either.
Regarding all the
Regarding all the “vigilantism” nonsense, this little twitter exchange was quite satisfying.
Keith Peat was furious… =))
bikebot wrote:Regarding all
This is truly brilliant!
=))
I love how Keith Peat keeps changing between his many twitter account to continue the conversation.
thereverent wrote:bikebot
This is truly brilliant!
=))
I love how Keith Peat keeps changing between his many twitter account to continue the conversation.— bikebot
Six days later, and he’s STILL going on about it. He’s also annoyed that some Police twitter accounts have started to block him.
The sad thing, most of his followers on twitter are actually cyclists. Better idea, follow his dog -> @KeithPeatsDog
bikebot wrote:Keith Peat was
He’s a JollySelfRighteous chump. Keith Peat tries to give the illusion of consensus by using lots of aliases. In this case @driversunion and @eastmidsdrivers. I’m surprised @bogtrotter never joined in too.
Any know of other aliases out there?
Strange that Vine went
Strange that Vine went with:
“infuriatingly, throat-throttlingly, red-mist-inducingly smug”
which is exactly how I’d describe Gove!
I can understand the angst of the common motorist, soon they may have to abide by the laws of the road and not continually endanger the life of others.
As for the taxi drive to the studio, we just need to look at the stats; how many lorry drivers have killed or seriously injured cyclists this year compared to the number of cyclists killing lorry drivers?
infuriatingly,
Which confirms that Sarah Vine sees other people not as they are but as she is.
Is he wearing hi vis in the
Is he wearing hi vis in the TV studio??
vonhelmet wrote:Is he wearing
I imagine he did this to take the p!ss.
TBH he should have been wearing a helmet and paying “roadtax” too :))
I don’t like them, I can see
I don’t like them, I can see both sides of the argument though.
Judge dreadful wrote:I don’t
Please enlighten me, what’s the argument against traffic cams?
Judge dreadful wrote:I don’t
She was on both sides of the argument. One moment she doesn’t want him to film, then she wants him to report everyone.
Classic CCTV argument; no one wants to be filmed, but everyone want to see the CCTV when something happens.
This morning I went to the
This morning I went to the local shop to buy some milk. I was aghast to see there was a camera set up! Bloody shopkeeper Stasi!
qwerky wrote:This morning I
😀
There were cameras on my Tube platform this morning too. #TubeStasi
And there’s one in my office. #EmployerStasi
Etc.
Gizmo_ wrote:qwerky
Pfft! This morning I was in Jessops….. Oh hang on….!
And Sarah Vine is the wife of
And Sarah Vine is the wife of the new Tory Justice Minister, mmm, food for thought.
This Morning – Paragon of
This Morning – Paragon of cutting-edge debate and crucible of public opinion….. <:P
after reading his twitter
after reading his twitter comments, i just had a quick look at keith peat’s website – 8}
what a douche!
Quote: and questions why
Because the driving test has resulted in a high standard of law abiding driving. NOT!
#ClutchingAtStraws
Each to their own, but the
Each to their own, but the day I start using bike/helmet cameras will be the day that I also wear one walking down the street or in the supermarket etc. I think as soon as you buy one you introduce a little bit more anger and obsessive behavior into your life.
Kojima wrote:Each to their
The supermarket already has CCTV, so why bother?
But yes, its far more aggro than I’m prepared to go to (not to mention that good cameras seem to cost more than my bike, and then I’d be constantly worried about the camera getting broken)
But there’s just something absurd about upper-class Spectator types outraged at anyone noticing their bad behaviour, even while they are precisely the type who aspire to live in gated communities with CCTV and would be the first to demand monitoring of the street if someone vandalised their car or behaved in an anti-social manner in their neighbourhood.
Surveillance is only for the plebs and the riff-raff, not for the likes of them.
“If all my personalities get
“If all my personalities get angry about it, that’s several votes against those video-nasty b@stard cyclists for a start!”
I hate all things Gove – my
I hate all things Gove – my wife (a teacher and a cyclist) more so!
goggy wrote:I hate all things
Is the wife aware of this level of hate you have for her? :H
I thought vigilantes took the
I thought vigilantes took the law into their own hands and broke the law they were proclaiming to uphold as a result.
But filming people breaking the law is actually ‘collecting evidence’, so who has a problem with that? Oh, yes, right-wing reactionaries….
I thought it was a citizen’s
I thought it was a citizen’s duty to report law breaking. If I saw someone breaking into the Gove home I imagine Mrs. Gove would want me to call the cops, not ignore it for fear of being called a vigilante.
When you look at who she
When you look at who she married, you’d have to question every aspect of her judgement, and sanity.
Perfect Daily Hate journalist then…
“one can cycle badly, cause
“one can cycle badly, cause an accident and more often than not it will be the driver that will be at the very least prosecuted.”
I think this person should be informed that in the event of ANY “accident” involving a cycle and a driver, the driver will not be “at the very least” prosecuted. Most of the time, they will not even be investigated or arrested, never mind charged and prosecuted.
Indeed, most of the time, accusations made against drivers – to the police, with hard evidence – will be ignored.
So are the parents of the
So are the parents of the child hit by a person riding a bike in Blackpool “vigilantes” for having security cameras in their home?
Was the releasing by them of the edited video not “kangaroo justice”
This shit works both ways
I think we just need to be
I think we just need to be consistent here. If you approve of cyclists filming as they ride and then publishing videos of anything they consider to be wrong (ie. not just using their video as evidence in case of a collision) then you should probably also approve of the video recently sold to and published by The Sun of a man taking cocaine on the tube.
The backlash against cycle cams isn’t because their footage is being used as evidence after a collision. It’s because cyclists are using the footage to name and shame drivers. Personally I am against it, I don’t want to live in a society where we all film each other with the threat of exposing any misdemeanor. I understand there is CCTV in a lot of places but I don’t see that as an argument of “so we might as well do it too”.
John Mitchell wrote:… then
Whilst I’m not against the the Sun publishing the cocaine details you’re not comparing like for like. Exposing someone who’s indulging in self harm is not the same as exposing someone who’s putting others at risk.
Anyway, someone who flouts the law in in a public place shouldn’t be surprised if (s)he finds the details published in the public domain. There’s a degree of Mens Rea here. They knew what they were doing was wrong and in full view of the public but did so anyway.
Tough.
ron611087 wrote:John Mitchell
If we’re talking about putting others at risk then how do you feel about naming and shaming cyclists with headphones in? Cyclists who RLJ? Cyclists who speed? Fixie riders with no front brake? Or any other way in which cyclists break road rules, which can certainly be perceived as putting themselves and others at risk?
Yes, when we flout laws (not just talking about on a bike now) we are usually aware that we are doing so. I have no idea how many times I’ve broken the law, lots. I don’t think it makes me immoral or even irresponsible. I can’t imagine there’s many people who have never broken any. Obviously it’s no excuse in a legal sense, and if caught we can all expect consequences, but that doesn’t mean we should increase the amount of surveillance.
John Mitchel wrote:If we’re
How do I feel about cyclists behavior? To be honest I don’t give a shit.
A cyclist who cycles like a dick will kill himself. A motorist who drives like a dick will kill me. There’s the difference.
ron611087 wrote:
How do I
You were previously talking about how anybody breaking a law in the public domain is fair game for this type of policing (ie people with cameras). My question was if that is your honest stance then do you support the idea of naming and shaming cyclists who break traffic laws?
In your last comment you seem to suggest that you only support the public exposure if the action puts someone else’s life at risk. OK, so how much do they have to increase your probability of dying to warrant this naming and shaming? That might seem facetious but it’s not intended to be. There are a lot of actions that will increase the likelihood of a cyclist dying but where do you set the threshold? If someone is talking on a hands-free phone then they will be more distracted than a driver who isn’t, therefore they are increasing the probability that they will kill a cyclist. Obviously it’s legal for them to do this but your latest comment suggests that it isn’t the law that concerns you. A driver eating a cereal bar will be distracted, but less so than someone eating a bowl of cereal. Both of these drivers are safer than one who is driving recklessly because they are in a rush. Someone driving recklessly may or may not be more of a danger than another driver deliberately buzzing a cyclist.
The defence of “a motorist who drives like a dick will kill me” is obviously an exaggeration, rather it will increase the probability of him killing you. But is somebody eating cereal whilst sat at a light “driving like a dick”?
I don’t think it’s sensible to group all driving misdemeanors together as being equal. Some of them, if filmed, are deserving of being sent to the police etc. and others aren’t. The question is where we draw the line.
John Mitchell wrote:I think
I was going to say I somewhat agree with that – using it as evidence for the police and courts is different from making it public.
I think there’s something to be said for, if making it public, removing identifying details, as the point should be demonstrating the prevalence of the general behaviour rather than shaming individuals.
Not sure that _is_ why there’s a ‘backlash’ though.
Also, the background is that the police and courts are not always as enthusiastic as they should be about following up some of these things, that’s a factor as to why shaming ends up being used instead. There are loads of clips of terrifyingly close and aggressive passes out there, for example, where the police just took no action.
FluffyKittenofTindalos
OK yeah, I agree there are definitely other reasons for this attitude towards cyclists, it would be more accurate to say that in regards to the attitude towards cyclists with cameras, the naming and shaming mini-culture is a contributing factor.
Also I should clarify that I’m not against exposing some of the awful driving, I’m not totally against naming some of the drivers. But there is a scale of seriousness and I think we should be careful not to set the bar at “breaking the highway code”.
John Mitchell wrote:But there
Why not? It a document written by a 3rd party rather than some arbitrary scale we invented.
atgni wrote:
Why not? It a
If you are happy with other road users filming you and submitting footage of any occasion that you break the highway code then yes, for you that would be the right level to set the bar at. Personally I would hate to be in that society. I hate the idea of everybody filming and snitching on everybody else. That’s my opinion though, like I said if that’s the society you want then I have no issue for you to say this occasion was justified.
John Mitchell wrote:atgni
If you are happy with other road users filming you and submitting footage of any occasion that you break the highway code then yes, for you that would be the right level to set the bar at. Personally I would hate to be in that society. I hate the idea of everybody filming and snitching on everybody else. That’s my opinion though, like I said if that’s the society you want then I have no issue for you to say this occasion was justified.— atgni
So is your chosen arbitrary point is a ‘near death incident’ how would you define the recommended reporting point?
Is calling 999 for the Police, rather than Fire or Ambulance, snitching too?
As the police tweet said
As the police tweet said “anyone is entitled to film in a public place” so if you don’t want people to see you doing something, do it at home.
jazzdude wrote:As the police
Being legal and being moral are not necessarily the same thing. I am legally entitled to film you in a public place, does that morally entitle me to film you each day on your way to and from work because I like your face? Let’s not hide behind the excuse of “we’re allowed to” when talking about whether we should do something.
John Mitchell wrote:In your
Don’t put words in my mouth. I said I don’t give a shit. Film every cyclist you like.
Read my one of previous post: “whilst a cyclists records moments of other road users behaviour, they records all of their own. If the cyclist breaks the law (s)he’s gifting the authorities with the evidence. It works both ways”
What gives you anonymity is not whether you are being recorded or not, it’s what you are doing when you are being recorded. I bet I’m one of the many nameless background faces on tourists snaps around the capital. Neither they nor I care, and I remain anonymous.
ron611087 wrote:
What gives
As I said to atgni, it’s a question of what society we want to live in. I have no desire for everybody to be filming everyone else with the intention of reporting even a minor wrong doing. For anybody else not comfortable with that future then it is a hypocrisy to support the naming and shaming of drivers (or cyclists, or pedestrians) for minor infringements.
The woman in the video was sat at a red light whilst eating her cereal. I’m not suggesting it’s a sensible thing to do. I’m not suggesting it’s totally safe. But it’s a whole different thing to driving along whist eating the cereal, and there is zero evidence of her doing that.
We’ve all had near misses (or near hits if you prefer) and some of them in my opinion justify being reported. That doesn’t mean we should report everything just in case. I think there should be some common sense here.
John Mitchell wrote:The woman
Watch the video. Balancing a bowl of cereal in one hand and steering with the other. Where do you think her attention was? Driving?
Common sense is that collection of prejudices we have accumulated by the age of 18 – Albert Einstein.
You’re progressing some way to proving his point.
ron611087 wrote:
Watch the
I stand corrected, she was moving forward a car place with the food in her lap, so no she wasn’t stationary. She also wasn’t driving along the road in the way the gentleman was in your anecdote, and we have no evidence that she had been or was planning to.
I don’t really understand the relevance of this quote or your comment. Yes we are all full of prejudices and biases, it is what makes up our thought patterns. However we can actively work to reduce their impact on how we think. I would say there is a massive bias within the cycling community against car drivers, a kind of ‘two wheels good, four wheels bad’ mentality. I think it clouds some cyclists’ judgement when looking at videos like the one above and leads them to conclusions that they wouldn’t reach otherwise. I don’t deny that I have biases that will alter my thinking but I really don’t know which ones you are referring to.
John Mitchell wrote:and we
If only there was some footage!
atgni wrote: If only there
touché
John Mitchell wrote:I stand
Oh really? I trust the bowl of slopping cereal would magically disappear between where she was filmed and where she was going? If she had no intention of driving with it, why is it in the car? If that’s not evidence, what more evidence do you want?
Oh, and by the way, Einstein’s quote was exactly in context. He viewed the expression “common sense” as a lazy way of presenting an unproven principle as truth. You’re choosing to define your own concept of safety in the same way.
ron611087 wrote:
Oh really? I
It’s fairly plausible that she was only intending to eat from the bowl whilst stationary or in traffic. It’s also plausible that she was eating it regardless and only happened to get caught doing it whilst in traffic. But the only evidence is of her doing it in the video so to assume that she would also be doing it whilst driving near the speed limit is wrong. It is possible, you could argue it is probable, but it’s not a given.
When I said we should use common sense I meant that we should give this thought, so it was probably a clumsy term for me to use. What is the unproven principle I am presenting as truth? I thought I had been reasonably clear that it’s my opinion that a tattletale society would be a negative change. I’ve suggested that others may share my view, I’ve claimed that anybody who does share it should consider what footage should therefore be shared from cycle-cams. I’m unsure what I’ve erroneously claimed as being a fact. Please clarify your point.
I’m unsure what I’ve
You’ve erroneously claimed that the driver was “waiting at traffic lights”. She was waiting to turn onto a dual carriageway from an unsignalled junction. So it would be her decision to pull out while juggling a bowl of cereal, not a traffic signal’s. And once on the dual carriageway she would either be negotiating a roundabout in ether direction or making some sharp right angle crossings of shared use paths. Having to monitor your bowl balance, when to put it down and take it up again, the road and path conditions are, I suggest, asking a bit much from any road user.
I see the massive use of cameras with bicycles in the UK as symptomatic of the poor (mostly urban) cycling conditions, just as dashcams are in the Soviet Union. As much as anything else they are a cri de coeur about a real problem, not to be dismissed as the tools of busybodies. Since the authorities do nothing about the general problem, the only recourse a cyclist has is to point the finger at individuals, since the police will sometimes react to that.
John Mitchell wrote:The
In a word yes.
A few years ago a motorist gave me a close pass. When I caught up at the lights I saw why. He had a burger in in hand, Chips on his lap and a drink in the cup holder. He was also completely oblivious to me peering through his window, just as he was oblivious to me when he executed his dangerous pass. It wasn’t a near miss, it was a near hit.
When a driver is distracted the first thing to go is peripheral vision. That’s the vision that brings pedestrians and cyclists to your attention. There’s enough psychological tests that have been done to prove this point. It’s no longer controversial.
How dim does one have to be
How dim does one have to be to need to combine eating your breakfast with driving?
At what point in a first world country, with a reasonable education system, does anyone feel the need to do this?
At what point in a first world country, with a reasonable education system and a surplus of food, and multiple opportunities to eat, does anyone need to do this?
The eleventh commandment clearly states:
11) Do not be a dick.
This woman is a dick.
…and defending or excusing her actions is foolish.
Crikey – I’m sure people have
Crikey – I’m sure people have been defending her actions but I hope you’re not grouping me with them. I’m not trying to justify eating cereal whilst driving, I think I’ve said as much.
Jitensha Oni – Yes, I said she was at lights, I was going from memory of seeing the video a few hours before and I was wrong. She was in a line of traffic approaching a junction. It wasn’t really the crux of my argument but you are right.
I think you are making assumptions about what this driver is going to do, it’s quite possible that she is planning to put the bowl down on the passenger seat before pulling out at the junction (she’s still not at the front during this video footage). I’m not assuming she is going to do that, just demonstrating that we don’t actually know. Again let me clarify I’m not saying that she should be eating it whilst moving slowly, or even whilst stationary. I’m not defending or excusing her. I’m saying that I think this has been blown out of proportion and she didn’t deserve all the consequences she got: a verbal telling off, the video being uploaded to YouTube and being sent to the police.
But my point is not limited to that video, it is more general. You may well be right about why many cyclists are riding with cameras, though I suspect there are also other reasons. I have nothing against people doing so, it seems quite sensible though I personally prefer not to myself. I don’t suggest that they are only used by “busybodies”, nor I have I used that name myself until now. I disagree that this is “the only recourse a cyclist has”. I think it’s fine to use them to highlight a problem, in which case drivers can be blurred out. I think it’s fine to use them as evidence of dangerous driving. Of course it’s sensible to use footage as evidence in the case of a collision. But my point still stands that I think there is a line that shouldn’t be crossed lightly into using footage to name and shame drivers for relatively minor offenses. I personally wouldn’t choose to cross that line and I think it’s a mistake if many of us cyclists do cross it.
Sorry Mr ever-so-reasonable
Sorry Mr ever-so-reasonable and long winded, but you appear to be an apologist for this lady.
‘Minor offences’, even ‘relatively minor offences’ are commonplace. This lady was eating cereal from a bowl while driving a car, as minor an offence as talking on a mobile phone while driving a car…
Picking up on ‘minor offences’ and prosecuting them to the full extent of the law will make life safer for any number of people and will encourage those people who think ‘it’s OK, I’m great at driving after my 6 lessons and a test that a blind man on a galloping horse could pass’ to drive with more thought and attention.
Get them named and shamed, save a few lives.
I’m not defending her at all
I’m not defending her at all so I’m not an apologist.
I agree that the roads would be safer for everyone if everybody thought they were under constant surveillance, but the improved safety doesn’t justify the means for me. You have no evidence that naming and shaming these people will “save a few lives” you are making a pretty bold assumption there. Even if you are right though I wouldn’t support widespread use of this technique. That’s not to say I don’t value lives, I really do. The recent deaths are a tragedy and it’s awful that there are still so many cycling deaths in our capital. But I do value life, and I value the freedom we have in our lives in our society. Freedom from everybody filming, judging and exposing us is worth too much to sacrifice lightly. Let’s please not turn into a tattletale society.
I use a camera on my bike and
I use a camera on my bike and will happily report dangerous drivers to the police.
My way of looking at it is this: if someone close to you (a partner or child maybe) was killed by a dangerous driver and you found out someone had video evidence of the driver prior to this “accident” that might have got the driver off the road earlier, how would you feel if the person hadn’t reported it because they didn’t want to be seen as a “busybody”? What if you had that video evidence?
Id rather be the person that potentially saves a life than the person who lives the rest of their life knowing they could have prevented a death.
‘The true measure of a man is
‘The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he would never be caught’
Lord Kelvin.
Catch them.
Shame them.
People have fallen for the idea that they exist and they are therefore entitled to do as they wish unless they are caught at it. Catching, naming and shaming is an antidote to this.
The converse is a society where we are all free to do as we please and sod the rest unless there happens to be a policeman nearby.
Moral fibre, morals in general seem to be an anachronism and if people cannot police their own behaviour, we must do so.
Earlier on people were
Earlier on people were criticising the linked TV programme for using the term “vigilante”, but I certainly think it applies to the ethos conveyed in some of these later comments. I guess we fundamentally disagree on that, I would hate to live in one, it seems some people here welcome it.
crikey wrote:’The true
Very eloquently put crikey, and sadly very true in my experience.
I’d like people to take the
I’d like people to take the responsibility that comes with the opportunity to drive. I’d like people to assume the responsibility for others safety that comes with being able to drive.
It’s not about being a vigilante, it’s about not being a dick.
…and above all, it’s about not assuming that your breakfast cereal is more important than road safety; get a bacon sandwich and stop being a dick.
crikey wrote:It’s not about
What you said here IS about being a vigilante. Nobody here is defending the woman for eating cereal, this isn’t about defending her. It’s about whether “catching, naming and shaming” is the right thing to do.
She done wrong.
Catch
She done wrong.
Catch her.
Name her.
Shame her.
If you don’t, then you are part of the problem.
…and, for goodness sake, she is a dim-witted idiot who is too stupid to understand that eating cereal while driving I s not acceptable in any society.
We’ve reached an impasse.
We’ve reached an impasse. You claim to welcome more surveillance, more personal cameras, more naming and shaming in the interest of improving safety. I don’t.
John Mitchell wrote:We’ve
I for one hope you are the minority
John Mitchell wrote:We’ve
Its just the hypocritical inconsistency of it though.
You get the likes of Sarah Vine or Nick Ferrari coming on like Cockney gangsters or drug-dealing hoodie youths complaining about “grassing people up” when you just know they’d be the first to complain about a failure to report stuff to the police if it were about the misdeeds of people more plebian or less white than themselves.
Exactly, you hit the nail on
Exactly, you hit the nail on the head and that is my concern too. I’ve been trying to make the point that some people in here would object to it if they or their friends were filmed and shamed for daily misdeeds, and yet when it comes to car drivers the same people are defending it because it is legal to do so, or because the car driver deserves it, or because it is going to definitely save a life or any other justification. But the problem is that the justifications are being created after the decision is made. I hope that I am not being inconsistent. I don’t like the idea of that society and therefore I also don’t support the naming and shaming of car drivers for relatively minor offences.
@John Mitchell
I do partly
@John Mitchell
I do partly get where you are coming from, with regard to the wider issue of getting used to living in the camera-festooned goldfish bowl that is the modern world.
But, for heaven’s sake, Sarah Vine writes frequently for the Daily Mail – how often has that publication featured an article attempting to shame someone, whether an obscure nobody or a celeb, for failing to meet the approval of their curtain-twitcher readership? At least half the paper is made up of such stuff!
Vine is _absolutely_ a part of that part of the media, and that general class, who relentlessly tut-tut and attempt to shame others (did her husband ever say anything about the issue of CCTV in the schools he was in charge of, by the way?).
It seems she just thinks it should be a one-way street (with no contraflow cycle lane!).
All these recent complaints about ‘cycling vigilantes’ seem to fall into that hypocritical category. The wider issue of ‘cameras everywhere’ is, unfortunately, probably a lost cause, but its not what this is about anyway.
In New York, Major Guiliani
In New York, Major Guiliani (definitely not spelt correctly) launched zero-tolerance attitude to ‘minor infringements’, including subway graffiti.
At night, the trains were all cleaned from the day’s graffiti, and in the day they were tagged again. Soon enough, the taggers got frustrated with their work being whitewashed over every night and they stopped doing it.
Now you can argue that it’s a pointless exercise, but the reasoning behind it was that people felt safer on clean trains, and there were stats to prove it had an effect as well.
Post-crackdown, the trains were cleaner, and both minor AND major crimes were down on the subway.
The point being that minor misdemeanours can (and do) lead to more major ones, by cracking down (filming, naming/shaming etc) on the trifling petty ones (if that’s your view) then as a whole the roads become safer.
And yes, people didn’t see the point at the start of his crackdown either, there were a LOT of sceptics!
Cycling, and especially
Cycling, and especially driving, is not a private activity. It is done on the public highway and can have very severe consequences for others,
Myself, I am quite prepared to have my cycling, and especially my driving, filmed and criticised. I hope that I can always defend my techniques etc. but if I drive badly I will take on board any criticism and try to improve. If I drove as badly as some of those I see around me I would be ashamed and want to do better.
How you drive is not a private matter, and a good driver should be prepared to learn from criticism.
themartincox – I’m not
themartincox – I’m not arguing that smaller crimes are insignificant. I don’t doubt that a highly monitored road would be safer for users. My point is that we are sacrificing something fairly substantial to get it. When CCTV first came out there was a lot of dislike of them, it seems our society has now become accustomed to, and accepting of, them.
felixcat – I understand your point about the road being a kind of exceptional cirumstance, but I think it would be easy to make a similar case for all sorts of other places and activities. I don’t think the road is really a unique case. Whilst I agree that there are way too many sloppy, careless, lazy and reckless road users, I really don’t think the way to address it is for other users to film them. It’s just such a negative impact on society for us to be always looking to report on others.
fluffykittenoftindalos – I think you are right about Sarah Vine, I didn’t find her arguments compelling at all. I think she is being hypocritical. But that doesn’t mean we should join her in the hypocrisy. The point is trying to step back from our emotions for a moment. Cycling is something that all of us here are attached to. And as impartially as we can deciding if this is a good direction to take. And knowing that if we condone the naming and shaming of road users then we are condoning it in all of our society too because I don’t think you can justify this as a special case.
“felixcat – I understand your
“felixcat – I understand your point about the road being a kind of exceptional cirumstance, but I think it would be easy to make a similar case for all sorts of other places and activities. I don’t think the road is really a unique case. ”
In what other situation do citizens kill strangers? If there really were any other case where 2000 people a year were killed randomly by passers by there would be stringent measures to sort it out. Most years in Northern Island during the recent “Troubles” motorists killed twice as many people as terrorists. The result was internment without trial for terrorist suspects.
The road really is a unique case.
If I walked down the street with a gun (a bullet has a deal less kinetic energy than a car) and carelessly discharged it, do you think, that even if I killed no one, I would escape without penalty?
That driving is permitted and carrying a loaded gun is not, only means that drivers need more incentives to avoid injuring others.
Why don’t you think that putting dangerous drivers in fear of having their stupidity or aggression pointed out would tend to make them more careful or less aggressive? I think it will.
felixcat wrote:
Why don’t you
I didn’t say this, in fact I’ve said a few times now that I think it would make all road users more careful.
Your loaded gun analogy isn’t quite accurate, though I get what you are saying. The difference is that cars are considered useful and people drive them for a purpose, it is accepted that they will do that and it is allowed.
You talk about the number of deaths caused by road users and yes there are a lot. My point what that not everyone will see this as the special case that you do. For example obesity is a huge drain on the NHS and causes a much much larger number of deaths than traffic. Perhaps therefore it is OK to name and shame people who are deemed to be over-eating? Other people may focus on smoking in public, doing drugs in public, over-drinking, contributing to climate change, offending religions etc etc. Road deaths aren’t going to be a special case in everybody’s eyes. I’d suggest that it is our bias as cyclists that makes it seem like they are.
John Mitchell wrote:For
Are you saying that bad driving is a symptom of some underlying illness? Some sort of mental derangement, perhaps?
John Mitchell wrote:
You talk
A better analogy / comparison would be KSI’s in the workplace.
Compare and contrast the establishment reaction to a person being killed by a works vehicle in the workplace and a person being killed by a works vehicle on the road between workplaces. Or even the case of a highway worker killed or seriously injured on a highway by any type of vehicle and indeed any other person killed or seriously injured on the same highway.
So yes, name and shame or sending the footage to the authorities to deal with can be considered a public spirited duty. It would appear that the name and shame part encourages the authorities to do something sometimes.
Yes, name and shame can be
Yes, name and shame can be considered a public spirited duty. But I think it’s important to notice what we are sacrificing if we endorse this. Now perhaps you think the public good outweighs the increased surveillance, and that’s fine, so long as you accept what the loss is. Personally I think it depends on what behaviour is being exposed, we’re back to serious vs minor infringements. I think we can all probably agree that Jason Wells (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpkv3w7-jPM) deserved recrimination because his behaviour was seriously bad. But what if a driver is reading a text whilst waiting at a light? Is that serious enough to justify the name and shame? I’m not saying it’s OK to check texts, I’m just asking if it justifies this course of action. You can argue that it is in the public good to film and report it, but then I can argue that it is in the public good to name and shame people for off road bad behaviour. So the question still stands at where do we draw the line? Even accepting that the road is a dangerous place and there are a lot of deaths and people have great responsibility, I can’t see that justifying people reporting every infringement, no matter how big or small.
sorry, double post due to
sorry, double post due to youtube link originally being rejected.
John Mitchell wrote:
For
In all honestly, I think your argument is getting worse rather than better!
Most of those are easily dispensed with, as they are not remotely comparable – damaging your own health is not the same as injuring or killing others. Its puzzling that you suggest it is.
You mention ‘doing drugs in public’ – what about _dealing_ drugs in public? That would be a closer analogy (though still not quite the same). Would it be completely wrong for someone to film such activity? Especially if the police were failing to do anything about it.
You mention ‘offending religions’ – people have been caught on camera racially abusing people in public places. Are you saying people should be allowed to go on abusing more vulnerable groups in secrecy? Surely you aren’t condemning the people whose footage has revealed racist behaviour by US cops, for example?
The trouble with your argument, I’m now thinking, is that you are asking for a kind of unilateral disarmament only by the more vulnerable groups who only have the one ‘weapon’. Why aren’t you demanding shops stop using CCTV against shoplifters, say?
I’m not promoting helmet-cams, I don’t think its a magic bullet (heh, that would be infrastructure). But I don’t see the point joining in with a one-sided demand that the more vulnerable not try and hold the more powerful to account – especially while those with power are going to carry on filming and monitoring regardless.
FluffyKittenofTindalos
My point wasn’t that I necessarily think they are equivalent, but rather that we shouldn’t assign any special cases because whilst we are cyclists and road safety seems paramount to us, other people will have other priorities and create their own exceptions. If that’s the route taken then of course there will be no exceptions as all cases will have their defenders.
Dealing drugs is clearly more serious than taking drugs, just as driving with no hands whilst eating and talking on the phone is more serious than checking a text at a light. It still faces the same question, if you record all four instances, which ones do you submit to the police and publish on YouTube? In my opinion the only defensible stances are to send in none, all four, or two (being the more serious offense in each case).
No I am not supporting racism, I think you knew that. You can insult religion without being racist. Some people take it extremely seriously. To them such an act warrants severe (lethal) consequences. Again I used the example to demonstrate that not all people will agree with you about creating a special case for road offenses.
I’m not trying to remove a tool from the most vulnerable. That wasn’t ever my point. I am not saying cyclists shouldn’t have cameras. I am saying that cyclists should be thoughtful about what footage they decide to make public.
This isn’t “us vs them”. It’s not to do with those with power and those without power as you suggest. I’m not making a one-sided demand because this has nothing to do with police having cameras, or CCTV in shops. That’s a whole different debate. This is about what is done with the footage captured.
John Mitchell wrote:
My point
Again, you are trying to claim an equivalence between, say, self-harmers cutting themselves and someone who goes round slashing strangers with a knife. Those are not in any possible way similar cases, so why are you insisting on equating them?
Someone might indeed think someone eating too much and risking their own health is a higher priority than someone potentially killing an innocent child via distracted driving, but they would be WRONG to have those priorities, so why do you ascribe so much importance to this point?
I don’t agree with it – I disagree fundamentally with the idea that endangering yourself and endangering others are equivalent moral issues to be dealt with the same way – and you haven’t explained why you think otherwise.
Again, I didn’t get my point across – its not just ‘more serious’, the point is that it potentially harms _others_. That’s a _qualitative_ difference, not a quantitative one. Whereas the examples you give about distracted driving are BOTH about potentially harming others. Not the same distinction at all.
I don’t 100% disagree with that – personally I wouldn’t go for shaming individuals. But I’m not going to tell others what to do when they witness something that could potentially endanger them, especially if they’ve personally had experience of the police doing nothing when given evidence of such behaviour.
And it kind-of is ‘them and us’, to some degree. There are always power struggles between different groups, that’s life. On the road those in heavy armoured metal boxes have more power (they also have quite a bit politically speaking as well)
If I see somebody smoking
If I see somebody smoking weed in public then that is potentially damaging my health through second hand smoke. That’s also true of seeing someone in public smoking a cigarette. The question is how much it affects my health, how much does it increase my chances of dying? The same argument is true of somebody sat at a red light reading a text message. Somebody doing drugs in public could be seen by children or impressionable adults, it could increase their chance of taking the drugs so it’s not just self-harming as you put it.
If that sounds abstract I apologise. I’m not arguing that those cases would necessarily significantly increase the likelihood of death to others but those examples (and I’m sure you can imagine many other ones, probably better than these) are not strictly self-harming. When we talk about a driver sat in traffic eating cereal, yes she is increasing the chances of a cyclist death around her, but by how much? At the lower end of traffic offenses we are talking about very small probability jumps, the same way we’re talking about small probability jumps when somebody is smoking a cigarette in public.
To group all traffic offenses together as “potentially killing an innocent child through distracted driving” is massively misleading. Different offenses cause different probability jumps. Some offenses lead to significant jumps and naming and shaming these drivers is justified in my opinion. Other offenses have negligible impact and to name and shame them is totally unnecessary and out of proportion (note that when the footage is also released to the police the action of posting the video to youtube with face and number plate visible is much harder to justify as being a public service).
Not all driving offenses are equal. To post videos of minor infringements is a needless erosion of our society.
Bringing up the “us vs them” argument clouds the water. It invites biases. And in this case it strays away from the point.
John Mitchell wrote: Perhaps
Those over eating are not killing others. Overeating and the drain on nhs is equivalent to driving at all. Not to driving dangerously. Since the health effects on the population and the fact that inactivity (driving rather than active transport) is as important to health as being overweight. But in fact there is more stigma in society for being morbidly obese than for using a phone while driving.
So long as the police
So long as the police continue to do naff all (feel free to blame the police themselves, or the government for their cuts, I don’t care which you choose) vulnerable road users will continue to do what they feel they need to do to feel safer on the roads. That is all there is to it. If you don’t want cyclists carrying cameras and filming infractions, get the police back out on the roads and let them deal with them.
“To post videos of minor
“To post videos of minor infringements is a needless erosion of our society”
No.
Minor infringements are an erosion of our society, not videos. Suggesting that we shouldn’t draw attention to ‘minor’ infringements allows standards of behaviour to slip, it lowers the bar, it changes behaviour for the worse.
The difference between ‘minor’ incidents and ‘major’ ones is the consequence, and if people think they can get away with the small stuff, get away with things that ‘everyone does’ then we end up with a shittier place to live.
Behaviour in a social setting should be of a high standard, behaviour in cars is often not because car drivers see themselves as separate, they think they have their own private space and can therefore act in a way that they would not otherwise.
I hope the public shaming of this woman makes her consider her behaviour and I hope that it will discourage all the other nice, well brought up, affluent and utterly selfish people who think driving a car is an extension of their breakfast table.
@John Mitchell
Second-hand
@John Mitchell
Second-hand smoke in outdoors spaces has neigligble health effects on anyone other than the smoker (even indoors I think the health effect has been over-stated, though I personally just don’t like the smell/sensation of being around smoking, so I’m quite happy its banned almost everywhere).
And, more to the point, if you are going there, I could mention the crap drivers pump into the air. That has worse health effects than outdoors second-hand cigarette smoke (killing about 50,000 people a year according to some studies), so I don’t think that argument helps your case at all.
I don’t give any importance to that ‘bad example’ stuff – that is really stretching the notion of ‘harming others’, as its up to those ‘others’ whether they want to copy someone or not.
The bottom line is that part of the social contract for driving at all, is that you do so while properly paying attention. It seems pretty simple to me – I don’t agree to you operating a possibly deadly weapon in a public space unless you give it your full attenion.
If you don’t want to abide by those rules, don’t bother with the special pleading about how you can drive well even if you are over the alcohol limit or that you were only texting while the traffic was hardly moving – just don’t drive.
Drivers kill thousands every year, it seems they aren’t erring on the side of being too carefull.
The daft thing is that you keep saying things that make me want to post again to argue with you, even though I don’t favour a general policy of putting bad drivers on youtube. I don’t think that’s really going to solve the problem, but I just don’t feel any need to complain about those who, in frustration, decide to do that.
If you want to stop such videos being posted, give us proper cycling infrastructure and better road law enforcement (maybe a better driving test regime) and people will largely lose interest in posting them!
“even though I don’t favour a
“even though I don’t favour a general policy of putting bad drivers on youtube.”
Then we have nothing to argue about.
You’d better sit down before
You’d better sit down before you read this article John.
http://road.cc/content/news/155797-video-jeremy-vine-having-camera-safer-wearing-helmet-london
Thanks for the link, I did
Thanks for the link, I did read it even though just seeing HIS name makes my mouth taste like vomit. Still, it is interesting to hear his view, and particularly what he says about police interest in the footage. I’m not sure it really addresses my concerns though. All along I’ve said that I am uncomfortable with the idea of submitting footage of minor incidents to the police, and I am uncomfortable with naming and shaming under almost all circumstances. That the police welcome footage doesn’t change this. The only part of the article which does address my point is that Vine (ugh) himself promotes their use (though not explicitly about putting footage on YouTube). So there is another voice on the side I disagree with. But that’s all really.