[NOtotheEU]

The first bicycle video from the driving instructor I really rate but most of you love to hate! He gets left hooked (but not hit) by a German SUV, who’d have guessed?

To be fair I can see why most people on here don’t think much of him as in another recent video video he says

“You have to look after cyclists because they don’t really read the traffic and read the roads as well as they could do” which is an odd take given that 99% of his ‘driving fails’ are drivers.

On the plus side he then goes on a rant about how mobile use while driving is getting to “ridiculous levels” and “I think it’s about time we had some harsher penelties . . . . as 6 points & £200 doesn’t seem to be working” so I’m sure he’s now going to support Cycling Mikey. OK, I won’t hold my breath.

Topic

[Rendel Harris]

chrisonatrike wrote:

Sadly I don’t have figures or details – if they are recorded.  Which is what we really need at this point in the discussion. 

Oldish figures (2012) but I don’t suppose much has changed: according to CTC police attributions of blame in fatal accident/serious injury investigations tends towards about 50% driver at fault, 30% both driver and cyclist at fault, and 20% solely cyclist at fault.

https://www.cyclinguk.org/blog/chris-peck/whos-to-blame-in-crashes-between-cyclists-and-motorists#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20deaths,sole%20fault%20of%20the%20cyclist.

[chrisonabike]

GMBasix wrote:

Not sure off the top of my head, but that isn’t the measure of what is dangerous: it’s a measure of vulnerability.
If I step into a tiger’s cage, I am not dangerous.

Good point – although it’s clearly not how “most people” think about this (assuming they think about it at all of course…).  What you tend to hear – if conversations even get this far – is “ah but the cyclists are *causing* accidents”.  Sadly I don’t have figures or details – if they are recorded.  Which is what we really need at this point in the discussion.  If there are any motorists recorded as being injured in collision with cyclists this may be because the bicycle / cyclist came through their windscreen.

Kind of like the tiger choking on your femur.

[GMBasix]

Not sure of the top of my

Not sure off the top of my head, but that isn’t the measure of what is dangerous: it’s a measure of vulnerability.
If I step into a tiger’s cage, I am not dangerous.

[LeadenSkies]

I accept you don’t use the
I accept you don’t use the horn in a threatening way, that wasn’t ever in doubt. I guess my issue is that I have been conditioned by experience over the last decade or so to treat use of the horn as an intimidatory tactic and my body now acts accordingly (fight or flight). Is that my problem? Partly, yes but it also causes a problem for your idea of a warning beep since unless we first reduce the perception amongst cyclists that the horn is a threatening act then all your suggestion will do is increase conflict. This will be counterproductive as drivers who are genuinely trying to reduce potential risk suddenly find themselves in conflict situations. That’s not a situation that either of us wants to end up in.

[TheBillder]

Ashley Neal wrote:

Ashley Neal wrote:

In most situations horn use towards cyclists is threatening, but not by me. We’re fighting a losing battle if the correct use is criticised so nobody is setting the right example. 

How do you get this polite toot thing from a car horn? You have only one variable – the length of time the horn is switched on. There’s no volume control, no tone of voice. So you rely on a quick tap of the switch. But that’s not as effective as you may think, and you may still make me jump, as I’m not enclosed in a box that NVH engineers have spent lots of time making quiet.

One of the things I learnt from pilot training is that surprises are dangerous, especially when your life is at stake. Adrenaline will impede ability to make a thoughtful reaction. So even your skilful polite toot could have unintended consequences, and most cyclists won’t welcome it.

And that’s without the other thought – that if a driver is hooting to get me to change my road position so he can squeeze past, that’s contrary to the spirit of the recent HC changes, which make it clear that I can decide when it is safe for the driver to pass me. As well as being very intimidating.

[HoarseMann]

Ashley Neal wrote:

What’s the % of cyclists involved in KSI incidents compared to motorists?

It’s all detailed here: https://www.pacts.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/PACTS-What-kills-most-on-the-roads-Report-15.0.pdf

[Mungecrundle]

If you use your horn
If you use your horn frequently only for the intended HC purpose to warn other road users of your presence then you might ask yourself why you repeatedly manage to get yourself into situations where that is necessary.

[giff77]

You are very much in the

You are very much in the minority and you are correct that a loosing battle is being fought over the correct use of the horn. Until instructors emphasise the correct use of the horn during lessons to their pupils and you and your peers do the same through your various channels in refreshing driving knowledge. Then we are going to get pretty much nowhere. 

In the last year Ive only experienced a polite toot and that was when I pulled to the side on a country lane to let a driver by. Every other occasion was pretty much a get out of the way blast or a angry you’ve kept me back blast. 
 

[IanMSpencer]

One of my riding friends
One of my riding friends cycles from Olton into central Brum. She’s been knocked off 3 or 4 times in the past 3 years, drivers setting off at roundabouts, forgetting there is a cyclist ahead of them, drivers entering roundabouts ignoring her, drivers undertaking her on the pavement, simply driving into her on straight bits of road because they think the road is empty as they simply haven’t seen the cyclist in front of them. Most of these have been low speed because of congestion.

She rides cyclo-cross, so has good bike skills, she helps train riders, she leads rides. She expects drivers to do daft things, yet she is often surprised by drivers that take it to the next level. I mean, if you are stationary at a roundabout entrance, haven’t moved because of traffic on the roundabout, what defensive technique do you use against being rear-ended by a car that was queueing behind you?

[IanMSpencer]

I’m sorry but that sort of
I’m sorry but that sort of post is offensive, even if you don’t recognise it.

Look up Tony Slatterthwaite – a fellow club member. All he did was cycle on a bit of road at the wrong time, the time being when a Porsche driver with his young lad in the car decided he’d drive at 60mph in a 40mph winding road. Tony got scraped under the car as he lost control. But of course he didn’t have your superior skills to predict it.

Please stop the willy-waving. It is a matter of fact that road users of all types are continuously put at risk by substandard driving. Pretending a cyclist or driver can protect themselves by defensive riding is just you kidding yourself.

The reality is that the so called advanced driving standard should be the minimum standard for driving on the road – after all it is observation, selecting the correct speed for the road and courteous safe driving. I doubt there is one element that should not be essential for any road user. The fact that the vast majority of road users have never attained that standard is clearly part of the problem. When I am driving I see all sorts of driving, switching lanes to go through red lights, excessive speed, stunningly careless lane changes. These are every day occurrences. When you are on a bike, you interact with the same people, without the benefit of a safety cage.

My rule of thumb is that 1 in 100 motorists is on a mission to teach cyclists not to be in their way. Add on the criminally incompetent who regularly appear in court having their excuse of momentary lapse of attention to hand then any cyclist who rides on the road cannot help have poor interactions, regardless of their own standard – and why should cyclists be held to some higher standard when we, as a nation, are not prepared to hold motorists to a basic level of competence?

[HoarseMann]

The correct use of the horn

The correct use of the horn is not to use it unless there’s imminent danger. If you use it for any other purpose, it loses its impact.

I’m afraid the battle is already lost when it comes to correct use and the police are not going to enforce it. Beeping at cyclists who are riding predictably and within the law is not setting the right example.

If you want to give a cyclist a quick toot because they’re riding 2-abreast and you think they should move into single file, then go ahead. But PLEASE don’t teach people that this is an acceptable practice. You have heard from many cyclists who would not be sure how to interpret this based on their past experiences with aggressive drivers. So if nothing else, please accept that the waters are muddy here and you should be treading carefully.

[Ashley Neal]

In most situations horn use

In most situations horn use towards cyclists is threatening, but not by me. We’re fighting a losing battle if the correct use is criticised so nobody is setting the right example. 

[Backladder]

Ashley Neal wrote:

Cycling is without doubt more dangerous, but I’ve never been close to being hit in 30+ years of cycling on the roads. What does this tell you? and it’s not that I’m just lucky! I don’t need better infrastructure (although it would be nice for the less able)

It tells me you don’t ride many miles, come back when you’ve ridden 150,000 miles in 30 years and tell us how many times you’ve come close to being hit.

[NOtotheEU]

Ashley Neal wrote:

I’ve never been close to being hit in 30+ years of cycling on the roads. What does this tell you?

it tells me you don’t cycle to work every day along the A38 dual carriageway in Birmingham. 

Almost every week I’m nearly hit by a driver seeing an empty left lane with traffic in the right lane doing 40mph+. They then undertake the traffic at well over the speed limit not realising the reason they are all in the right lane is that they are overtaking me. They do this in the dark, the rain, round blind bends and with HGVs in the right lane.

Fortunately I use a mirror and don’t ride in the gutter so at least I have a chance at taking avoiding action. I use multiple rear lights and lots of high-viz clothing too for all the difference it makes. I also run 3 cameras and regularly make reports to the Police (but not Twitter or Youtube) and will be very happy when the day comes I no longer need to.

And this is just one example when I’m riding in a straight line in a good road position. I could mention the HGVs that pull in too quickly saved only by an emergency stop by me, or the chassis cab van drivers who forget the body is wider than the cab (same with trailers) and miss me by millimeters, or two drivers racing each other side by side, or multiple other incidents almost every week.

When I first started using cameras I was shocked to see that I wasn’t the great cyclist I thought I was! I always review my ride videos and sometimes see I have either contributed to, made worse or not avoided a dangerous situation and learn not to make those bad decisions again. Sadly I have no control over a driver who doesn’t look, doesn’t think or just doesn’t care.

 

[LeadenSkies]

Ashley Neale, I suspect that
Ashley Neale, I suspect that if you ask, a huge majority of cyclists will tell you they perceive the use of the horn as a threatening act. I acknowledge that isn’t how it is supposed to be taken according to the highway code. So the questions are how did we get where we are and how do we solve the issue?

The first is easy, we got where we are because a lot of use of the horn around cyclists feels intended to intimidate and is accompanied by other forms of aggression such as close passing, verbal abuse, items being thrown out of windows at you etc. Simply saying use a friendly toot won’t help unless we somehow remove the belief that all use of the horn is aggressive. My flight or fight response is triggered by use of the horn around me, my heart rate spikes because in the past it has lead to me being struck by a passenger in a passing vehicle.

The how we solve this question is more difficult and I would be interested to hear your thoughts as I honestly am sick and tired of the aggression I face simply for riding a bike and would love it to end.

Just for context, I am an experienced cyclist of 45 years plus, who cycles a range of city, urban and rural roads on a regular basis. I count myself as a confident rider, willing to take control of the road when I need to do so to ensure my safety but also willing to assist car drivers to make good progress when safe to do so. I have never been hit by or hit a car though I have had several near misses. I put the clean accident record down to luck first, second and third with help from a reasonable sense of self preservation and learning from experience over the last 45 years.

[Author]

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