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Suggestions for the 2013 season

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  • September 3, 2012 at 11:01 am #16723
    drheaton

    It’s early, I know, but with the revival of the old suggestion thread it seems people are full of ideas on how they’d like the game to be “improved” next year!

    Obviously, this is all stuff that we’d like to see, wishful thinking really, but road.cc and Dave have always listened to what people think and have implemented good suggestions in the past (regional leagues, premium membership, the removal of the varying player values etc) so if you’ve got an idea post it below. Think of this as the place to make your request/suggestion so that Dave can see it easily. Also, tell everyone what you think works too rather than just complaining!

    Firstly off, I’d like to thank Dave for the game and strides they’ve made over the last few years to improve it into what is an excellent competition. I think that this years game is the best yet, the 4/5 split is a massive improvement over the old 1 GC, 1 AR ,1 KM, 1 PC and 5 DS split and allows for much more interesting team selections, likewise I think the constant rider values is something that should be kept next year as I haven’t missed the old system at all.

    My suggestions? Nothing major…

    1) Remove the 4/5 split altogether – I’d be happy if the current system was kept but would like to see complete flexibility, the limited budgets will restrict players from having a particularly unbalanced team and it will allow for even more creative team selections, especially where there are lots of cheap stars in a race (like this years classics). For example, pretty much all the top Vuelta teams will still have 3 of Contador, Rodriguez, Froome and Valverde so the 150 credit cap will restrict the makeup of the rest of their team. However, I guess the 4/5 split does give structure and makes the game easier to get your head around when starting out (my dad really struggled when he joined for the TdF but the 4/5 split made things easier).

    2) Expand on the premium membership with extra features such as combined purist team on the same account and stuff like that. I will probably pay for premium membership next year but I’d like to see some extra features being included for my money, not just extra races (which have been a bit shambolic this year and are very hard to follow).

    3) Teams of teams – another possible premium feature, 9 players band together into one team of players, their scores are combined in some way (straight sum of scores, average of all 9 or maybe lose the highest and lowest and sum/average what’s left) and they compete against other teams for a prize (Grand tours only maybe?). Should be fun and unpredictable, also, good for getting people to get involved on the forum.

    4) Fantasy jersey competitions – another thing to aim for when playing the grand tours, a selection of jerseys awarded to winners of particular comps:
    – a GC jersey awarded for whoever finishes 1st overall along with the bike, a black jersey possibly something road.cc themed.
    – a points jersey based on sprint stages or combined sprint points, either whichever teams gets the most intermediate sprint and flat finish line points over a race or maybe whoever scores highest just on flat stages, based on intermediate sprints would keep it interesting throughout though as you have to keep up with breaks in the mountains.
    – a mountains jersey like the points but for KoM points/mountain stages

    ideally these would be biased to make it very difficult to win them whilst still playing for overall placing, ie base it heavily on breakaway points (the KoM in particular) so that you need to pick the breaks and possibly suffer in the overall as a result, that’d make it something entirely separate to aim for like the riders aim for the KoM comp sacrificing their overall standings. Moreover, these aren’t big cost prizes and are just for fun/pride.

    5) Reduce the penalty for making additional transfers. I like the fact that there is a penalty but 20 points is very heavy, you basically need to place in the top 4 to overcome that. 10 points might bring in more tactical use of this facility and not be so penal if someone cocks up their team and needs to sort it out.

    That’s mine, just to be going on with. Also, a booby prize for whoever first mentions the ‘reset button’.

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  • October 1, 2012 at 8:18 pm #698109
    0
    dave atkinson

    drheaton wrote:
    Totally

    drheaton wrote:

    Totally agree, I’m worried that we’ll all resort to picking 4 or 5 ‘scoring’ riders then load up on junk riders just to get a team in budget. For races like the Vuelta that’d mean we pretty much all had exactly the same riders because we’d all have picked Rodriguez, Contador, Valverde +1 then 5 cheap crap DSs who are seriously unlikely to score anything.

    i don’t agree – up it to 175 and you’re just getting extra cash to spend on one more sure thing. the trick is to pick the DSs that score, like Gkam says. anyone can pick the top GC guys

    by the end of a grand tour everyone’s team at the top is going to be similar, that’s inevitable, and i don’t see how it would be changed or even that it needs to be

    October 1, 2012 at 8:15 pm #698107
    0
    dave atkinson

    really like the star
    really like the star budget/ds budget idea. that could work well, deciding whether to spunk your 100 on two or three big names or spreading it over four riders.

    October 1, 2012 at 8:02 pm #698105
    0
    Gkam84

    That makes it ever better if
    That makes it ever better if you have to pick “crap” DS’s, then you have to pick ones who might finish in the top 20, plenty of them this season. Also riders from teams the winner might come from OR aim for the last place man 👿

    October 1, 2012 at 7:29 pm #698103
    0
    drheaton

    Alan Tullett wrote:OK, that’s

    Alan Tullett wrote:
    OK, that’s interesting. Only problem is with only 150 points it’ll be difficult to get more than 4 or 5 riders scoring if all the ones who are likely to score are expensive. I see quite a lot of cheap ‘dead wood’ to afford riders who’ll score. Would be better if we had 175 points as before to get a more balanced team so you can afford to take a few risks with potential breakaway riders who are moderately expensive DSs.

    Totally agree, I’m worried that we’ll all resort to picking 4 or 5 ‘scoring’ riders then load up on junk riders just to get a team in budget. For races like the Vuelta that’d mean we pretty much all had exactly the same riders because we’d all have picked Rodriguez, Contador, Valverde +1 then 5 cheap crap DSs who are seriously unlikely to score anything.

    October 1, 2012 at 6:47 pm #698101
    0
    Alan Tullett

    here’s how it’ll basically

    here’s how it’ll basically work:

    1) there’s a maximum rider value of 40 and a minimum rider value of 3, more or less as there is now

    2) individual competitions will be turned on as they approach, ie you won’t be able to pick your tour of beijing team in january. generally the competitions will be opened when we know which teams are participating

    3)at the point at which the competition is turned on the rider values will be calculated. They’ll be calculated based on a rider’s performance in the year preceding that date; ie all races up to one year in the past will be considered

    4) the scores of each rider will be totted up to generate averages for each type of stage; they’ll be weighted according to the importance of the race, and how many of each kind of stage features in the upcoming race

    5) based on that, each rider will be given a value, and the highest-ranked riders will be star riders. so a rider won’t necessarily stay a star if they do badly over a season, and the reverse is also true.

    What will it mean for rider values?

    1) It’ll mean that the values of riders for the start of the 2013 season will be pretty wildly different to their 2012 values. but you’d expect that

    2) It’ll mean that a DS who does particularly well in a race might see his value jump considerably, but the values of star riders who’ve already amassed a lot of points in 2012 will change less radically from one race to the next

    3) It’ll mean that rider values will be weighted towards the riders that will do well on certain types of terrain; if a race is all flat stages then sprinters will be more expensive, and so on;

    4) It’ll mean that riders will be valued according to their ability to score in the game. true sprinters won’t be as expensive as GC riders, because they generally don’t score as many points even though they win as many stages

    alles klar?

    OK, that’s interesting. Only problem is with only 150 points it’ll be difficult to get more than 4 or 5 riders scoring if all the ones who are likely to score are expensive. I see quite a lot of cheap ‘dead wood’ to afford riders who’ll score. Would be better if we had 175 points as before to get a more balanced team so you can afford to take a few risks with potential breakaway riders who are moderately expensive DSs.

    The other option which I’ve thought of to get more varied teams is to keep the star/DS distinction but make it more meaningful by having a point cap on the stars. If we had 150 points then you can only use 100 for stars and 50 for DSs. This would restrict the use of high-value stars and force people to make more choices as was necessary when we had 1GC, 1PC etc. This would lead to more varied teams (I’m thinking of the Vuelta especially, but it applied to some extent in all the main Grand Tours when the GC settled down and it was obvious who was going to do well.)

    This wouldn’t be a big change and would keep most of the good aspects of this year’s game and add some elements from the previous year which have been lost.

    October 1, 2012 at 6:12 pm #698099
    0
    Alan Tullett

    giff77 wrote:Pretty happy

    giff77 wrote:
    Pretty happy with the game as a whole. How about including a couple of the womens’ races as well. Or could run parrallel to the mens season?

    Would second that. Good way to build interest in their races. Their main races could be in the premium season with a few (world champs) part of the main season.

    October 1, 2012 at 4:27 pm #698097
    0
    drheaton

    Yeah, the key here would be
    Yeah, the key here would be that it’d run parallel to the normal game on proper events like the Giro, Paris-Roubaix or Tour so you could use the official scores rather than having to score each rider yourself, that’d make a huge difference, especially if the scores had some form of rider id attached to them which you could refer to in excel.

    The only minor problems with the riders page as it is are that riders who abandoned don’t show up in the list and that you have to pull each stage off individually and then try and sort the riders by name, then pull off their scores into some kind of table.

    Having the full set of scores/riders for a whole race come off from one page would be ideal.

    October 1, 2012 at 4:19 pm #698095
    0
    Stumps

    dave_atkinson wrote:drheaton

    dave_atkinson wrote:
    drheaton wrote:
    Stumps:

    dave_atkinson wrote:
    next year the rider values will work on a different basis and a rider’s value will change between competitions, rather than being set at the start of the year. also, there’ll be a more consistent base value for DSs

    from above.

    I agree, if the values are wildly different it might get confusing and messy but if it’s broadly consistent with a limited amount of change (either limited by %age or by a few credits) then it might be ok.

    I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

    here’s how it’ll basically work:

    1) there’s a maximum rider value of 40 and a minimum rider value of 3, more or less as there is now

    2) individual competitions will be turned on as they approach, ie you won’t be able to pick your tour of beijing team in january. generally the competitions will be opened when we know which teams are participating

    3)at the point at which the competition is turned on the rider values will be calculated. They’ll be calculated based on a rider’s performance in the year preceding that date; ie all races up to one year in the past will be considered

    4) the scores of each rider will be totted up to generate averages for each type of stage; they’ll be weighted according to the importance of the race, and how many of each kind of stage features in the upcoming race

    5) based on that, each rider will be given a value, and the highest-ranked riders will be star riders. so a rider won’t necessarily stay a star if they do badly over a season, and the reverse is also true.

    What will it mean for rider values?

    1) It’ll mean that the values of riders for the start of the 2013 season will be pretty wildly different to their 2012 values. but you’d expect that

    2) It’ll mean that a DS who does particularly well in a race might see his value jump considerably, but the values of star riders who’ve already amassed a lot of points in 2012 will change less radically from one race to the next

    3) It’ll mean that rider values will be weighted towards the riders that will do well on certain types of terrain; if a race is all flat stages then sprinters will be more expensive, and so on;

    4) It’ll mean that riders will be valued according to their ability to score in the game. true sprinters won’t be as expensive as GC riders, because they generally don’t score as many points even though they win as many stages

    alles klar?

    Ah, right, so thats how its done :/

    October 1, 2012 at 3:53 pm #698093
    0
    TERatcliffe26

    drheaton wrote:dave_atkinson

    drheaton wrote:
    dave_atkinson wrote:
    the whole squad/draft thing we’re not really considering, for two reasons:

    1) it’s very different to what we’re doing now and a lot of work to implement
    2) cycling’s not like football; people dip in and out over the course of a season. the game needs to reflect that in order to be inclusive. i know everyone on this thread will most likely be getting stuck in from the tour down under onwards, but the majority don’t sign up until at least the spring classics. any game structure that requires doing anything at the start of the season is out, as far as we’re concerned, for the main game. no reason it couldn’t be done as a forum game though.

    Yeah, I can imagine it’d be a huge project. I’m not suggesting it really as something to run alongside the main game for the kinds of people who’ll just compete in the TdF, but I can see it being a fun addition for those people who want to compete all year in as many races as they can ie those players who sign up for the premium game.

    That would be my only bugbear actually, that the premium game is just a few extra races that, for me at least, aren’t as fun as the ones we get for free. Adding some extra features just for premium users which don’t unbalance the game would make me sign up for premium membership gladly next year rather than being the only way to have a chance at the bike 😀 Just extra league types, race types or something like that, something for the more involved player, would make it a bargain at £10 a year.

    I’d happily run a squad based game as a forum game but it’d be a massive amount of work to manage 10+ 25 man squads, make sure no-one uses riders they don’t have ‘under contract’ and keep to the rules. The variable rider values would make it complicated too as they wouldn’t be ‘set’ at the start of the year as they are now. In theory the game engine as it stands would do a lot of the work but the 150 credit cap would heavily impact on the rules you’d have to run the game on.

    Any plans on releasing an API so someone could pull the scores directly off the net through the API and feed them into an external site or program? Either that or any way of making the scores available in a format that’s easier to just drop into a spreadsheet? Just one sheet, a list of riders down the rows (with a unique id) and stages across the top, that’d make it much easier. Or even just adding a ‘rider id’ to the stages pages might help.

    Im likely to have some time on my hands to at least be able to assist in some forum type game like that. Ive found stuff ok to do when its about 10 teams, however was a lot of hard work when it got up to 20 odd for one of the week races. But like you said any form of assistance Dave could add would help

    October 1, 2012 at 2:23 pm #698091
    0
    dave atkinson

    drheaton wrote:
    Any plans on

    drheaton wrote:

    Any plans on releasing an API so someone could pull the scores directly off the net through the API and feed them into an external site or program? Either that or any way of making the scores available in a format that’s easier to just drop into a spreadsheet? Just one sheet, a list of riders down the rows (with a unique id) and stages across the top, that’d make it much easier. Or even just adding a ‘rider id’ to the stages pages might help.

    mebbe. we can chat about that…

    October 1, 2012 at 2:09 pm #698089
    0
    drheaton

    dave_atkinson wrote:the whole

    dave_atkinson wrote:
    the whole squad/draft thing we’re not really considering, for two reasons:

    1) it’s very different to what we’re doing now and a lot of work to implement
    2) cycling’s not like football; people dip in and out over the course of a season. the game needs to reflect that in order to be inclusive. i know everyone on this thread will most likely be getting stuck in from the tour down under onwards, but the majority don’t sign up until at least the spring classics. any game structure that requires doing anything at the start of the season is out, as far as we’re concerned, for the main game. no reason it couldn’t be done as a forum game though.

    Yeah, I can imagine it’d be a huge project. I’m not suggesting it really as something to run alongside the main game for the kinds of people who’ll just compete in the TdF, but I can see it being a fun addition for those people who want to compete all year in as many races as they can ie those players who sign up for the premium game.

    That would be my only bugbear actually, that the premium game is just a few extra races that, for me at least, aren’t as fun as the ones we get for free. Adding some extra features just for premium users which don’t unbalance the game would make me sign up for premium membership gladly next year rather than being the only way to have a chance at the bike 😀 Just extra league types, race types or something like that, something for the more involved player, would make it a bargain at £10 a year.

    I’d happily run a squad based game as a forum game but it’d be a massive amount of work to manage 10+ 25 man squads, make sure no-one uses riders they don’t have ‘under contract’ and keep to the rules. The variable rider values would make it complicated too as they wouldn’t be ‘set’ at the start of the year as they are now. In theory the game engine as it stands would do a lot of the work but the 150 credit cap would heavily impact on the rules you’d have to run the game on.

    Any plans on releasing an API so someone could pull the scores directly off the net through the API and feed them into an external site or program? Either that or any way of making the scores available in a format that’s easier to just drop into a spreadsheet? Just one sheet, a list of riders down the rows (with a unique id) and stages across the top, that’d make it much easier. Or even just adding a ‘rider id’ to the stages pages might help.

    October 1, 2012 at 1:29 pm #698087
    0
    dave atkinson

    drheaton wrote:I think

    drheaton wrote:
    I think elsewhere someone suggested a game where you pick your ‘squad’ of 25 riders or so at the start of the season based on a budget (although this wouldn’t work if rider values change throughout the year…) and you choose nine riders from your squad for each race.

    No transfers, no changes, just your 25 guys for the whole season much like the pro setup and you play each race purist.

    I really like the idea and the ways you could extend it (having a ‘draft’ style system to choose your riders so no team in a mini-league has the same riders, having a keeper league where you keep your riders each year making transfers in the off-season etc) but it’s a totally different game really to the main game and would be a big departure. Possibly something to look at outside of the game (like on the forum) but again, it’d be a lot of work.

    the whole squad/draft thing we’re not really considering, for two reasons:

    1) it’s very different to what we’re doing now and a lot of work to implement
    2) cycling’s not like football; people dip in and out over the course of a season. the game needs to reflect that in order to be inclusive. i know everyone on this thread will most likely be getting stuck in from the tour down under onwards, but the majority don’t sign up until at least the spring classics. any game structure that requires doing anything at the start of the season is out, as far as we’re concerned, for the main game. no reason it couldn’t be done as a forum game though.

    October 1, 2012 at 11:14 am #698085
    0
    dave atkinson

    drheaton

    drheaton wrote:
    Stumps:

    dave_atkinson wrote:
    next year the rider values will work on a different basis and a rider’s value will change between competitions, rather than being set at the start of the year. also, there’ll be a more consistent base value for DSs

    from above.

    I agree, if the values are wildly different it might get confusing and messy but if it’s broadly consistent with a limited amount of change (either limited by %age or by a few credits) then it might be ok.

    I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

    here’s how it’ll basically work:

    1) there’s a maximum rider value of 40 and a minimum rider value of 3, more or less as there is now

    2) individual competitions will be turned on as they approach, ie you won’t be able to pick your tour of beijing team in january. generally the competitions will be opened when we know which teams are participating

    3)at the point at which the competition is turned on the rider values will be calculated. They’ll be calculated based on a rider’s performance in the year preceding that date; ie all races up to one year in the past will be considered

    4) the scores of each rider will be totted up to generate averages for each type of stage; they’ll be weighted according to the importance of the race, and how many of each kind of stage features in the upcoming race

    5) based on that, each rider will be given a value, and the highest-ranked riders will be star riders. so a rider won’t necessarily stay a star if they do badly over a season, and the reverse is also true.

    What will it mean for rider values?

    1) It’ll mean that the values of riders for the start of the 2013 season will be pretty wildly different to their 2012 values. but you’d expect that

    2) It’ll mean that a DS who does particularly well in a race might see his value jump considerably, but the values of star riders who’ve already amassed a lot of points in 2012 will change less radically from one race to the next

    3) It’ll mean that rider values will be weighted towards the riders that will do well on certain types of terrain; if a race is all flat stages then sprinters will be more expensive, and so on;

    4) It’ll mean that riders will be valued according to their ability to score in the game. true sprinters won’t be as expensive as GC riders, because they generally don’t score as many points even though they win as many stages

    alles klar?

    October 1, 2012 at 10:17 am #698083
    0
    noddy69

    Thats why I was suggesting a
    Thats why I was suggesting a very simple 9 man team, three transfers , season long side game. It could be made complicated but as you said thats a different game, this would just be an added extra that people could use to add to the enjoyment of an already addictive game not a complicated new type of system at all.

    October 1, 2012 at 10:09 am #698081
    0
    drheaton

    I think elsewhere someone
    I think elsewhere someone suggested a game where you pick your ‘squad’ of 25 riders or so at the start of the season based on a budget (although this wouldn’t work if rider values change throughout the year…) and you choose nine riders from your squad for each race.

    No transfers, no changes, just your 25 guys for the whole season much like the pro setup and you play each race purist.

    I really like the idea and the ways you could extend it (having a ‘draft’ style system to choose your riders so no team in a mini-league has the same riders, having a keeper league where you keep your riders each year making transfers in the off-season etc) but it’s a totally different game really to the main game and would be a big departure. Possibly something to look at outside of the game (like on the forum) but again, it’d be a lot of work.

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