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Suggestions for the 2013 season

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  • September 3, 2012 at 11:01 am #16723
    drheaton

    It’s early, I know, but with the revival of the old suggestion thread it seems people are full of ideas on how they’d like the game to be “improved” next year!

    Obviously, this is all stuff that we’d like to see, wishful thinking really, but road.cc and Dave have always listened to what people think and have implemented good suggestions in the past (regional leagues, premium membership, the removal of the varying player values etc) so if you’ve got an idea post it below. Think of this as the place to make your request/suggestion so that Dave can see it easily. Also, tell everyone what you think works too rather than just complaining!

    Firstly off, I’d like to thank Dave for the game and strides they’ve made over the last few years to improve it into what is an excellent competition. I think that this years game is the best yet, the 4/5 split is a massive improvement over the old 1 GC, 1 AR ,1 KM, 1 PC and 5 DS split and allows for much more interesting team selections, likewise I think the constant rider values is something that should be kept next year as I haven’t missed the old system at all.

    My suggestions? Nothing major…

    1) Remove the 4/5 split altogether – I’d be happy if the current system was kept but would like to see complete flexibility, the limited budgets will restrict players from having a particularly unbalanced team and it will allow for even more creative team selections, especially where there are lots of cheap stars in a race (like this years classics). For example, pretty much all the top Vuelta teams will still have 3 of Contador, Rodriguez, Froome and Valverde so the 150 credit cap will restrict the makeup of the rest of their team. However, I guess the 4/5 split does give structure and makes the game easier to get your head around when starting out (my dad really struggled when he joined for the TdF but the 4/5 split made things easier).

    2) Expand on the premium membership with extra features such as combined purist team on the same account and stuff like that. I will probably pay for premium membership next year but I’d like to see some extra features being included for my money, not just extra races (which have been a bit shambolic this year and are very hard to follow).

    3) Teams of teams – another possible premium feature, 9 players band together into one team of players, their scores are combined in some way (straight sum of scores, average of all 9 or maybe lose the highest and lowest and sum/average what’s left) and they compete against other teams for a prize (Grand tours only maybe?). Should be fun and unpredictable, also, good for getting people to get involved on the forum.

    4) Fantasy jersey competitions – another thing to aim for when playing the grand tours, a selection of jerseys awarded to winners of particular comps:
    – a GC jersey awarded for whoever finishes 1st overall along with the bike, a black jersey possibly something road.cc themed.
    – a points jersey based on sprint stages or combined sprint points, either whichever teams gets the most intermediate sprint and flat finish line points over a race or maybe whoever scores highest just on flat stages, based on intermediate sprints would keep it interesting throughout though as you have to keep up with breaks in the mountains.
    – a mountains jersey like the points but for KoM points/mountain stages

    ideally these would be biased to make it very difficult to win them whilst still playing for overall placing, ie base it heavily on breakaway points (the KoM in particular) so that you need to pick the breaks and possibly suffer in the overall as a result, that’d make it something entirely separate to aim for like the riders aim for the KoM comp sacrificing their overall standings. Moreover, these aren’t big cost prizes and are just for fun/pride.

    5) Reduce the penalty for making additional transfers. I like the fact that there is a penalty but 20 points is very heavy, you basically need to place in the top 4 to overcome that. 10 points might bring in more tactical use of this facility and not be so penal if someone cocks up their team and needs to sort it out.

    That’s mine, just to be going on with. Also, a booby prize for whoever first mentions the ‘reset button’.

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Viewing 15 replies - 76 through 90 (of 198 total)
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  • October 13, 2012 at 8:43 pm #698169
    0
    enrique

    Dave Atkinson wrote:… all

    Dave Atkinson wrote:
    … all we’re doing is using the available data to set rider values, like we did last year. the only difference being this time we’re using *actual* data, rather than data in our heads.

    I’m wondering what criteria you’ll use to determine if a rider is a Star. How many points they scored in a competititon? If they were Top 10 in GC or Top 10 in a Classics race? How many points they scored in the previous race they rode?… Take Westra, for example, Got 3nd in GC at Paris-Nice 2012, had 3rd highest point total in the Roadcc competition, I think, what would you do with him for Paris-Nice next year?…

    I still think the amount of Star Riders per competition should be cut down and that the Star Rider criteria, having 4 of them, should be set as an upper limit, not as a requirement, of filling 4 slots, only with Stars…

    October 13, 2012 at 8:30 pm #698167
    0
    enrique

    Gkam84 wrote:It would be

    Gkam84 wrote:
    It would be 1/198 if you could only pick one rider, But you get to pick 9, So its got to be divided by 9 ;)

    Not really… If I had to guess, I’d say the odds are less than 1/22, because the way you’re looking at it, you could only choose 22 different teams of 9 – to cover all 198 riders… One team would have bibs 1-9, another team another nine riders, but in reality there are more than 22 different combinations, many more, so I figure the odds are less than 1/22… I may be wrong, but I wish we had a statistician on the forum…

    October 13, 2012 at 7:56 pm #698165
    0
    dave atkinson

    cgipryan wrote:”3)at the

    cgipryan wrote:
    ”3)at the point at which the competition is turned on the rider values will be calculated. They’ll be calculated based on a rider’s performance in the year preceding that date; ie all races up to one year in the past will be considered

    4) the scores of each rider will be totted up to generate averages for each type of stage; they’ll be weighted according to the importance of the race, and how many of each kind of stage features in the upcoming race

    5) based on that, each rider will be given a value, and the highest-ranked riders will be star riders. so a rider won’t necessarily stay a star if they do badly over a season, and the reverse is also true.”

    It seems to me like you’re gonna do much of the thinking for us… I’m pretty worried that this might lead to winning by pure luck…

    really? because all we’re doing is using the available data to set rider values, like we did last year. the only difference being this time we’re using *actual* data, rather than data in our heads.

    October 13, 2012 at 6:47 pm #698163
    0
    enrique

    Gkam84 wrote:Simple maths,

    Gkam84 wrote:
    Simple maths, you have to pick 9 riders, so 198/9 = 22

    I’d say your chance of choosing the winner would always be 1/198… Since there’s no guarantee of the winner being a Star, or a DS and much less of the winner being in the nine you pick…

    I’m not sure we should keep the splits, but if we do, I’d rather they remain as upper limits, as I explained above, NOT, as it is now, a REQUIREMENT to have 4 Stars (or whatever number is set) on every team at all times, but more of a limit that you can’t go over… So you could have between 0 to 4 Stars on a team, but you can’t have MORE than 4 Stars… I guess I would want more flexibility and NOT the requirement that 4 Stars should be present at all times…

    October 13, 2012 at 6:44 pm #698161
    0
    Gkam84

    It would be 1/198 if you
    It would be 1/198 if you could only pick one rider, But you get to pick 9, So its got to be divided by 9 😉

    October 13, 2012 at 5:02 pm #698159
    0
    Gkam84

    enrique wrote:Gkam84

    enrique wrote:
    Gkam84 wrote:
    Chances of picking the winner

    1 in 22

    How do you get to this number?…

    Simple maths, you have to pick 9 riders, so 198/9 = 22

    Thats without having the 4/5 split

    October 13, 2012 at 3:07 pm #698157
    0
    cgipryan

    “3)at the point at which the

    “3)at the point at which the competition is turned on the rider values will be calculated. They’ll be calculated based on a rider’s performance in the year preceding that date; ie all races up to one year in the past will be considered

    4) the scores of each rider will be totted up to generate averages for each type of stage; they’ll be weighted according to the importance of the race, and how many of each kind of stage features in the upcoming race

    5) based on that, each rider will be given a value, and the highest-ranked riders will be star riders. so a rider won’t necessarily stay a star if they do badly over a season, and the reverse is also true.”

    It seems to me like you’re gonna do much of the thinking for us… I’m pretty worried that this might lead to winning by pure luck…

    October 13, 2012 at 2:23 pm #698155
    0
    enrique

    cgipryan wrote:… 45 stars

    cgipryan wrote:
    … 45 stars in a grand tour is not much… Almost any team… have at least two stars… its normal for that number to increase in the TdF…

    These were the Star Riders in the Tour. I miscounted and there’s 60, if I’m correct. The points that appear are their total points for the Tour:

    1 Peter Sagan 550
    2 Bradley Wiggins 475
    3 Christopher Froome 367
    4 Matthew Goss 326
    5 Vicenzo Nibali 304
    6 Tejay van Garderen 301
    7 Andre Greipel 295
    8 Thomas Voeckler 293
    9 Cadel Evans 288
    10 Edvald Boasson Hagen 270
    11 Mark Cavendish 245
    12 Pierre Rolland 204
    13 Fredrik Kessiakoff 201
    14 Jurgen van den Broeck 191
    15 Chris Anker Sorensen 162
    16 Luis Leon Sanchez 161
    17 Peter Velits 130
    18 Alejandro Valverde 124
    19 Haimar Zubeldia 122
    20 Denis Menchov 122
    21 Nicolas Roche 101
    22 Philippe Gilbert 100
    23 Janez Brajkovic 97
    24 Sebastien Hinault 96
    25 Rein Taaramae 94
    26 Juan Jose Haedo 90
    27 Samuel Dumoulin 82
    28 Michele Scarponi 81
    29 Daniel Martin 78
    30 Alexandre Vinokourov 76
    31 David Millar 75
    32 Steven Kruijswijk 73
    33 Dries Devenyns 72
    34 Jean-Christophe Peraud 70
    35 Tyler Farrar 68
    36 Andreas Kloden 63
    37 Gregory Henderson 61
    38 Jeremy Roy 56
    39 Borut Bozic 56
    40 Maxime Monfort 51
    41 Bernhard Eisel 51
    42 Laurens ten Dam 50
    43 Chris Horner 49
    44 Michael Rogers 46
    45 Ivan Basso 44
    46 Karsten Kroon 39
    47 Christian Knees 39
    48 Rui Alberto Faria Da Costa 38
    49 Jurgen Roelandts 38
    50 Marco Marcato 35
    51 Jelle Vanendert 31
    52 Daniel Oss 28
    53 Sebastian Langeveld 20
    54 Rafael Valls Ferri 16
    55 Levi Leipheimer 13
    56 Juan Jose Cobo 11
    57 Simon Gerrans 10
    58 Nick Nuyens 9
    59 Johnny Hoogerland 6
    60 George Hincapie 3

    I still think that’s too much… I still think that, hard as it may be, there shouldn’t be more than 20 Stars per Grand Tour. I’d be ok with the Top 20 on this list to have been the only Stars.

    Maybe what’s most important is, if we keep the splits, is that the Star Rider quantity (4, or whatever it becomes) becomes the MAXIMUM number of “Stars” you can have, NOT a requirement per se to be obligated to HAVE (!) 4 Star Riders all the time.

    Meaning I can have UP TO 4 Stars, NOT MORE than 4, BUT (!), if I choose, I can field a team with NO Stars, 1 Star, 2 stars, 3 Stars or 4…. but not 5… The important thing is that I not have more than 4 Stars at any given time, which, frankly, could be achieved just by budget limitations, if the values are high enough for Stars… So I can see where Rider Values will be key to this discussion…

    Going back to the split, if we play that way, with the Star rider quantity not be obligatory but just a limit, then maybe the 4/5 split can be revised to 2/7 or 3/6…

    Just thinking and sharing my ideas…

    October 13, 2012 at 1:58 pm #698153
    0
    enrique

    Gkam84 wrote:Chances of

    Gkam84 wrote:
    Chances of picking the winner

    1 in 22

    How do you get to this number?…

    October 13, 2012 at 10:38 am #698151
    0
    cgipryan

    I like your logic Gkam.
    I like your logic Gkam. Besides, 45 stars in a grand tour is not much at all. Almost any team (at least the ProTour ones) have at least two stars (whether its a GC guy and a sprinter, or two protected GC guys, or a TT guy and a GC guy etc.). But many of them have 3 or even 4 protected riders for the various stages you get in a grand tour. And if you have 22 teams with at least two stars each, then you’ll have at least 44 star riders. And its normal for that number to increase in the TdF, since that’s where every important rider wants to be…

    October 12, 2012 at 8:14 pm #698149
    0
    Gkam84

    Yes thats what I think will
    Yes thats what I think will be the case. A star for the classic’s, may not be a star for the GT’s. So it might change the amount of stars in various races.

    Just to make it even more complicated for you 😉 😉

    As your example above. Using 45 stars for the Vuelta, I’m unsure of the actual amount there were, but for arguments sake we’ll use 45

    198 starters, 45 stars and 153 DS

    My rough math has worked out the chance’s below. It may not be spot on, but near enough to use as an example to show how the game would be dulled down by removing the 4/5 split.

    You chance of picking a scorer in the top 20

    From stars = 1 in 14
    From DS = 1 in 26

    Without having the split

    The chances of picking a scorer

    1 in 9

    Chances of picking the winner

    1 in 22

    Now obviously, that doesn’t take into account the type of stage which may rule out certain riders…example an uphill finish that rules out the big sprinters.

    The example I have given would be based on EVERY rider having the same ability, say in a Time Trial. So taking into account the type of stage, the odds of picking scoring Stars and DS goes up and without the split would remain around the same. Slightly less for mountains as you could discount quite a number of riders.

    Its only based on the first 20, as working in the chances of being in the break and scoring any kind of point would be nearly impossible.

    October 10, 2012 at 8:56 pm #698147
    0
    enrique

    Dave Atkinson wrote:Next year

    Dave Atkinson wrote:
    Next year a rider’s designation (as a star or otherwise) will change depending on his past form. rider values will be set for each race rather than on a yearly basis, based on past form and also the type of race. why is it complicated?

    Ok, it isn’t complicated… 😕 I guess I just like the simplicity of this year of one value for the whole year…

    I still think, taking this year’s Grand Tours as an example, that we have too many Star Riders in the Grand Tours. I counted 45 Riders as Star Riders in the Vuelta, 58 in the Tour and 47 in the Giro, of which we could only choose 4 at a time.

    I just think we have too many Star Riders, way too many! Maybe we should just list Star Riders just for the Grand Tours, and maybe just the GC guys as Stars… I mean, 45 to 58 Riders out of the 200 or so in a Tour are Stars? I think that’s alot! Just a thought… I’d like to bring that number down… A lot!…

    I guess from what you wrote there’s a possibility a rider could be a Star Rider for the Classics, but not for a Grand Tour, am I right?

    October 10, 2012 at 6:13 pm #698145
    0
    dave atkinson

    Next year a rider’s
    Next year a rider’s designation (as a star or otherwise) will change depending on his past form. rider values will be set for each race rather than on a yearly basis, based on past form and also the type of race. why is it complicated? you join a competition, you pick your team. You can still pick a nobody that does well in a tour. if someone does well their value will increase, but it’s not like one good tour is going to put them up with people that have a solid year of results behind them.

    We’ve been testing the system based on the current data. JTL was 3 credits in the ToB, his win means that for the Tour Down Under next year (if selected), his value would be around 7. he’s still cheap because he’s only got one tour’s worth of points, and the ToB isn’t weighted that highly. If he wins TDU too, well it goes up again. you’ll need to pick your improvers when they start to improve.

    October 10, 2012 at 6:11 pm #698143
    0
    Gkam84

    Then you have the problem of
    Then you have the problem of 5/20 being on Team Sky

    So leaving 15 other riders. By the time you split them into teams, Its only going to give you a few teams with star riders. So lets just say for arguments sake Froome, Wiggo, EBH, Heano, Uran, Nibali, Contador and Kreuziger were the only star’s in the TdF next year.

    Thats only 3 teams. Meaning you will be FORCED to pick two from the same team. A bit unfair when you are forced to do it.

    The system you are talking about involves changing the rules every race to suit the amount of stars involved. Its just not workable as a season long set up. Fine for a one of race. But not the season.

    October 10, 2012 at 6:05 pm #698141
    0
    dave atkinson

    enrique wrote:the reason we

    enrique wrote:
    the reason we all have similar teams at the end of a Grand Tour is that those riders are getting Finish Line Points, GC points and KM points and sometimes PC points…

    the reason we all have similar teams at the end of a Grand Tour is that we pick the set of riders who are going to score most highly within the constraints of the rules. changing the rules might change which riders you pick but it won’t change the fact that teams converge. it’s inevitable.

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