Monsters of the road: what should the UK do about SUVs?

Left_is_for_Losers wrote:

SUV's will also never die due to other features

Such as?

Left_is_for_Losers wrote:

popular amongst slightly older people for visibility (like being higher up)

SUVs are well-documented for having significantly worse visibility than lower cars - hence the Americans constantly running over their own kids in them.

Left_is_for_Losers wrote:

more space

SUVs are famous for having less space than the equivalent model car. The Tiguan feels noticably more cramped than the Golf, the X3 is noticably more cramped than the 3 Series, etc. And as I've pointed out below, they fail in luggage capacity too with multiple compact estates shitting all over an alarmingly large SUV for boot volume.

Left_is_for_Losers wrote:

feeling more safe

That's dubious at best - it used to be that SUVs would almost always roll in even the most minor crashes due to the higher centre-of-gravity (and the amount of videos I've seen of '70-'73 plate Range Rovers upside-down in London recently doesn't make me think that's changed much). SUVs are only percieved as more safe because you're more likely to be hit by an SUV these days. You can hardly commend something for solving a problem that it caused in the first place.

An SUV is a worse car than the equivalent estate in every concievable way - it's bigger, heavier, less spacious, less nice to drive, cramped, difficult to see out of, dangerous, more expensive to buy, and more expensive to run.

SUVs are popular for the same reason that those stupid-as-fuck low-crotch trousers (that made it almost impossible to walk) were a few years back - they're fashionable. All of this extra damage, extra danger, extra pollution, and extra space being taken up is purely down to vanity not necessity.

I don't disagree with your points, I think If i was the Penguin below, I would have gone for a Skoda Superb, so much space and affordable and practical too. But the truth is, SUV's are here to stay. 

And it's about peoples perception - higher up =  better sight lines and so on. 

SUV's are categorically more safe though, whether that's down to the size or whatever, the end line is that they are more safe, and some data to back this up:

https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/latest-driver-death-rates-highlight-dan...

7 out of the top 10, and the majority in the safest cars are SUV's 

Left_is_for_Losers wrote:

And it's about peoples perception - higher up =  better sight lines and so on. 

Ehh maybe, but being higher up and being able to see over other cars is only a benefit until everyone else has an SUV. Also, they get this "far away" visibility by trading visibility of what's close around you. It's much more difficult to see what's immediatley around an SUV, especially behind - I drove a freind's XC40 the other week, and when reversing, the nearest ground you could see was miles away - like the other side of the road to the car-park I was in. You could have half a playground of kids behind you and you'd never know - and that's not even a big SUV.

Left_is_for_Losers wrote:

SUV's are categorically more safe though, whether that's down to the size or whatever, the end line is that they are more safe, and some data to back this up:

https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/latest-driver-death-rates-highlight-dan...

7 out of the top 10, and the majority in the safest cars are SUV's 

Firstly, that's a US article so it's bringing their absolute leviathans into the equation (an Escalade is actually bigger than a Sherman tank). Secondly, the article literally concedes the point I made above that the saloon cars are only "less safe" because they're being hit by large SUVs - it even says that "Seven of the 20 vehicles with the highest other-driver death rates are large or very large pickups, and four more are midsize SUVs". That's not a probelm that SUVs are solving, it's a problem that SUV's are creating.

Somone on Reddit the other day posted a picture of a Hyundai i40 next to some new GMC SUV thing (no idea what model), and the bonnet of the SUV was actually higher than the roof of the Hyundai. Of course the Hyundai would come off worse in a crash between those two - that doesn't mean the Hyundai is inherantly "unsafe", it means that the SUV is an utter liability and it shouldn't exist. An SUV would come off worse if it was hit by a lorry - does that mean SUVs are unsafe and we should all be driving articulated HGVs?

As for your point about SUVs being here to stay – unfortunately, you’re probably not wrong. They’re an unjustifiable menace, but I don’t see any of the empty-suits in Government doing anything about them any time soon. I’m just saying that they’re not here for any good reason. They’re not better or more practical than normal cars – they actually worse, almost nobody can reasonably justify owning one, and we could easily regulate them out of existence without affecting anyone’s quality of life.  

Seems as if Right_is_for_Dickheads...

I have a fabia estate which felt massive when I bought it. It's easily taken two adults, two kids, bikes and luggage on holiday multiple times. This week it was parked next to a new, swb defender and it looks comically small suddenly. AFAIK the defender has two functional seats and less boot space. I live 10 mins from the city centre and I'm 99% certain the owner isn't a secret farmer.
I don't get it. It's pure vanity, they're not even more practical.

Being charitable, is it just that people:
 - like being higher up than others (psychological need)
 - like having an "outlook" (e.g. looking out further) (psychological need)
 - do SUVs* - while actually being even more space inefficient - offer more space *around* the front seats, for a feeling of spaciousness?
 - people very often gauge the value of things by what they cost, and these cost more - ergo they're "better".
 - once some people you know / aspire to have something, you're afraid of being the one without (more psychological needs)

* SUV - quite rightly there's debate about an expansive term (expansive by design, once it was known and manufactures realised people wanted "that").  Without making this circular are we OK with "larger / heavier / higher front than the previous generation ones"?  Else we'll be here all night...

chrisonatrike wrote:

Being charitable, is it just that people:
 - like being higher up than others (psychological need)
 - like having an "outlook" (e.g. looking out further) (psychological need)
 - do SUVs* - while actually being even more space inefficient - offer more space *around* the front seats, for a feeling of spaciousness?
 - people very often gauge the value of things by what they cost, and these cost more - ergo they're "better".
 - once some people you know / aspire to have something, you're afraid of being the one without (more psychological needs)

* SUV - quite rightly there's debate about an expansive term (expansive by design, once it was known and manufactures realised people wanted "that").  Without making this circular are we OK with "larger / heavier / higher front than the previous generation ones"?  Else we'll be here all night...

Small vans provide all the benefits of SUVs apart from the social signalling. Vans are seen as being a working class vehicle and I suppose driving an SUV is like a peacock brandishing their huge tail - over-sized and not very practical.

I’m slightly confused by this post – your reasoning seems to be that you wanted an estate comparable to a Mondeo, so you look only at what Ford make, and as they don’t make them any more, you… got a Hyundai?

If a Mondeo-ish estate was what you’re after, what was wrong with:

• Skoda Octavia Estate
• Skoda Superb Estate
• Peugeot 508 SW
• Peugeot 308 SW
• Kia Proceed Estate
• Kia Ceed Estate
• Vauxhall Astra Tourer
• MG MG5
• Subaru Outback
• VW Passat Estate
• VW Arteon Estate
• VW Golf Estate
• Seat Leon Estate
• Suzuki Swace
• Hyundai i40 Estate
• Toyota Corolla Estate
• Cupra Leon Estate
• Mini Clubman
• Ford Focus Estate

Or if you’re happy to go approved used (as these are the price segment above):

• Volvo V60 estate
• Volvo V90 estate
• Audi A4 Avant
• Audi A6 Avant
• BMW 3 Series Touring
• BMW 5 Series Touring
• Mercedes C Class Estate
• Mercedes E Class Estate
• Jaguar XF Sportbrake

I mean, if you looked at the options and got what you wanted – whatever, but your post seems to suggest you had to get an SUV because nobody makes anything else, which ^^ isn’t true.

No, they still exist, but they are getting rarer and from brands that I trust the options just weren't there.  From your list I would immediately exclude about half of it because I don't trust them.  Peugeot, Vauxhall, MG, VW.  They will never get my money because I just don't regard them as reliable brands.  I'm not buying shit.

Others on the list fall down on the specifics of the interior and load space, the Clubman and Focus for example, which are small cars with estate backs rather than full size estates.  

Others just aren't available locally to test drive, the MG, Leon and Swace for example, we've got dealers for most of the rest.

As for the second list, the brand and/or sporty nature makes them insurance liabilities, even if we can get them used.

To be fair, we probably could have given the Skodas more of a look in, but I don't have the patience to make it a project at some point it became "what can we get that's reliable and from a locally available brand that is within budget", and the options are much narrower than they were 5-10 years ago, when I'd have had a whole heap of options from basically evey brand.

No more new Volvo estates now. Just their pointlessly huge vehicles now.

FlyingPenguin wrote:

No, they still exist, but they are getting rarer and from brands that I trust the options just weren't there.  From your list I would immediately exclude about half of it because I don't trust them.  Peugeot, Vauxhall, MG, VW.  They will never get my money because I just don't regard them as reliable brands.  I'm not buying shit.

Others on the list fall down on the specifics of the interior and load space, the Clubman and Focus for example, which are small cars with estate backs rather than full size estates.  

Others just aren't available locally to test drive, the MG, Leon and Swace for example, we've got dealers for most of the rest.

As for the second list, the brand and/or sporty nature makes them insurance liabilities, even if we can get them used.

To be fair, we probably could have given the Skodas more of a look in, but I don't have the patience to make it a project at some point it became "what can we get that's reliable and from a locally available brand that is within budget", and the options are much narrower than they were 5-10 years ago, when I'd have had a whole heap of options from basically evey brand.

Just my $0.02, you exclude VW on the grounds of reliability but would've considered Skoda? You know they're basically the same platforms? I have a VW Caddy van (with rear seats, windows, etc) it's a 2017 LWB I've had from new and I'm keeping it for life now, it's the perfect vehicle for rural transport, bike trips, family holidays (3600 miles of last chance easy European tour of FR/BE/NL/DE/CH/IT) with 4x people, luggage and bike. Cheap insurance, VED, servicing and apart from a battery problem fixed under warranty, has never been anything other than reliable. 

I like Hyundai too as it happens, the other car in the household is an Ioniq 5; best EV currently on the market IMO, and I had one of the first BMW i3's back in 2014, no comparison really. 

mark1a wrote:

Just my $0.02, you exclude VW on the grounds of reliability but would've considered Skoda? 

The VW family is generally considered one of the most reliable, and certainly fairly easy to fix due to the crossover of parts etc. 

FlyingPenguin wrote:

No, they still exist, but they are getting rarer and from brands that I trust the options just weren't there.  From your list I would immediately exclude about half of it because I don't trust them.  Peugeot, Vauxhall, MG, VW.  They will never get my money because I just don't regard them as reliable brands.  I'm not buying shit.

 

mark1a wrote:

Just my $0.02, you exclude VW on the grounds of reliability but would've considered Skoda? You know they're basically the same platforms?

Yeah - not criticising how you've spent your own money, but I can't help but notice a few flaws in the logic here. The first post essentially said there are no family estates anymore so the SUV was the only option - I thought of 28 off the top of my head and I will have missed some.

Now you're arbitrarily writing off half of the brands and doesn't look like this is based on research. For example, you said that the VW Passat is "shit" and "unreliable" (despite it scoring 96% in a reliability survey, compared to the Hyudai Tuscon's 97%) and the Skoda Octavia would be worth more of a look - but they're the same car underneath.

Again, the comments on load space don't seem to be based on research - for example, the Ford Focus estate (a "small car with an estate back") has a luggage capacity of 575 litres with the back seats up compared to the Tuscon's 539. The Passat is 640, the Seat Leon (also an estate back on a “Golf-sized” hatchback) is 620, etc. I can't be bothered to pull up the specs for each car on the list, but SUVs are generally pretty cramped inside as a fact of their form-factor. The only car smaller than the Focus on that list is the Mini, so I wouldn't be surprised if every other car on that list can actually out-load the Hyundai.

Not wanting to look any further than the immediate area is your choice, but if I was going to drop *looks up the price of a Tuscon* £32,000 on something, I'd be happy to go to the next town over if it meant getting the most suitable car - last time I bought a new car, I was going 40-45 miles out to check out my options.

The insurance point is fair enough - the second list are all a little higher insurance group than the others (not excessively though - like 23-30). Some are comparable, such as some versions of the Audi A4 Avant being the same group as the Tuscon (19).

Like I said - you've look around and got what you want and that's fine. But nothing you've written really suggests that it was the only option and you had to get an SUV.

wtjs wrote:

I never wrote any statistics, you did. Why do you love electronic bikes so much? Does your wife have one or something?

That ought to confirm to Rendel who this inept retread is!

Suspected as much, the posed illiteracy is a red flag in itself...

Rendel Harris wrote:

Suspected as much, the posed illiteracy is a red flag in itself...

Well, he's gone already.

Good work mods, quickest disposal ever!

Kinda - noticed this account month(s) back but it was just odd and not a definitive Nige then. Maybe it's a new game and they took their account down themselves?

Having heard about the Wikipedia stuff it seems like road.cc may be but a minor break in a busy day...

Yes - another persona they dug up again from the past. IIRC they claimed to be a Dutch bike shop owner when using this one before! If I've not confused the various multiple identities that is. (But since they can't even keep track themselves why should I?)

IIRC they claimed to be a Dutch bike shop owner when using this one before!

I spotted him as a PBU when he first began this foolish imitation- educated Dutch English speakers are generally as 'grammatical' as we are- and I claim my £5

Left_is_for_Losers wrote:

Cars have been getting bigger, but the road, parking spaces and so on haven't - because it is of course very difficult to just make a road wider.

Well - it's not easy to fight the market - unless of course we want to ("war on some drugs" - which to be fair was lost almost everywhere).

Cars getting bigger is no more inevitable than cars becoming electric. Or electric bikes and scooters appearing on the streets. Or indeed any of our transport choices. (Doing nothing is also a choice...)

Interestingly there are examples from several nearby countries - with the same access to car brands as here - where they've decided that they should actually go the opposite way and make roads smaller. Maybe by adding cycle infra, or more pedestrian space, or trams or just some nice places to walk / sit / some greenery.

chrisonatrike wrote:

Well - it's not easy to fight the market - unless of course we want to ("war on some drugs" - which to be fair was lost almost everywhere).

Unlike drugs it is perfectly feasible to legislate against monster cars, no one is going to be buying an SUV from some dodgy guy in a shady back street.

set out maximum dimensions (length, width, height and weight) for new car registrations, with exemptions for work vehicles, which must be vans or pick ups and not just over sized land rovers.

I'd also extend this to power limits, and minimum fuel econmy figures as well. Being out of the EU should allow us to control our own roads. Could be the first actual benefit of the whole debacle.

wycombewheeler wrote:

I'd also extend this to power limits, and minimum fuel econmy figures as well. Being out of the EU should allow us to control our own roads. Could be the first actual benefit of the whole debacle.

So, how would that be policed! Minimum fuel economy? I'm all for good economy, but that is impossible to police.