[jonwolds]

I would appreciate any legally minded, experienced cyclists opinion on the situation below please. It seems wrong that manufactures can act in this way without offering compensation.

I’m not looking for personal opinions on which setups people consider safe or not, or to reopen a hookless rims debate. I’m interested in the legal / company responsibility aspect, based on the change in what these items were advertised as safe and compatible for. Thanks

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Trek recommend max 28mm tyres for the Emonda. They can run wider, but 28mm is the official safety recommendation.

4 months ago ….

1. Buy a set of Zipp 303 Firecrest wheels “recommended with 28mm tyres”. The SRAM/Zipp tyre compatibility chart lists a number of 28mm tyres, including Continental GP5000 S TR

2. Buy 3 new Continental GP5000 S TR 28mm tyres

Last month ….

1. SRAM/Zipp remove all 28mm tyres from their compatiblity list and advertise a new Goodyear 30mm tyre “optimized for the 303 Firecrest”

2. I am now in a position where I cannot use the Zipp wheels with the Emonda and follow Treks official safety recommendation of max 28mm tyres. In addition I have 3 Conti GP5000 S TR tyres, bought based on their stated compatibility with the wheels, which are no longer deemed safe.

4. I asked SRAM/ZIPP to provide me with a set of their recommended 30mm Goodyear tyres as a goodwill gesture, they said no.

5. I asked Conti to let me exchange the 28mm for 30mm tyres as a goodwill gesture. They said no, but you can buy even more tyres from us at a discounted rate.

SRAM/Zipp’s position is “Zipp manufactures its hookless wheels to meet ISO standards for hookless tires, and this has not changed.
 
The Zipp tire compatibility charts have been recently updated to align with all ISO standards. Recently, ISO tire compatibility explicitly changed for 25mm internal width rims and 28mm tires. While the latest standard indicates a minimum tire width of 29mm, there was a previously approved fitment of 28mm on 25mm internal width rims.
 
The information on the Zipp tire compatibility chart is provided by the tire manufacturers and the recent updates to the chart are at the request of those tire brands. While the 700×28 Continental Grand Prix 5000 S TR is no longer listed as compatible,“

Continentals position is “Tyre and wheel compatibility is dictated to all manufactures by ETRTO. 

ETRTO changed there recommendation about using 28mm tyres in a 25mm internal, stating that they advise a minimum of a 29mm on a 25mm internal. 

Zipp 303 Firecrest was one of the development rims for the Grand Prix 5000 S TR.“

Surely Zipp/SRAM/Conti should be at least making a goodwill gesture for not testing their new products sufficiently?

Thanks

 

 

 

Topic

[jonwolds]

Publicly all Zipp say is they

Publicly all Zipp say is they follow ISO standards. And ISO standards now don’t recommend 28mm tyres.

It would be interesting to know if ISO standards are set based on manufacturers test results or if they do their own tests. If they base standards on manufacturers results then something’s definitely off. If ISO do their own testing then I can understand Zipp passing the buck.

[jonwolds]

That’s interesting that there

That’s interesting that there’s nothing in the recommendation around safety. I haven’t read the standards myself (assumed it could only be about safety) which I probably should have and will do now. I agree then that there can be little recourse with the manufacturers.

Coincidentally next on my list is to dig out that proof that Zipp recommended 28mm. I agree that is an important point.

I’m not worried and am out riding. This is more a point of accountability of manufacturers towards saftey.

 

 

[Secret_squirrel]

Im sorry.  You’re tilting at

Im sorry.  You’re tilting at windmills, albeit with a reasonable sense of greviance.

A quick browse suggestions nothing that nothing about these recommendations has a safety aspect.   They are literally just compatablity statements, probably deliberately weasel worded to avoid the safety aspect and minimise lawsuits.

Have you retained a copy of the allowed 28mm recommendation from Zipp as evidence?

Its very likely the manufacturers have no case to answer in consumer law to you.  Your case would only ever be with the retailer(s), it would be up to the retailer to argue with the Manufacturer, even then I suspect you’d have to do a Money claim to get anywhere.  They sold them in good faith at the time.

Personally I’d eBay the 28’s and put 30’s on if they really upset you.  There are no downsides with going fatter, even the pro’s are doing it, and I’ve run much much tighter tolerances than the reported ones with 30’s on the Emonda.

Stop the worrying and get out and ride.  

[OnYerBike]

As far as I can tell, ZIPP

As far as I can tell, ZIPP are still maintaining that the recent high profile “blow offs” featuring ZIPP wheels were the result of external impacts and not indicative of any inherent compatibility problem between the wheels/tyres in question. And they would therefore presumably disagree with the assertion that there was any deficiency in their testing.  

[jonwolds]

Yes I’ve read that article.

Yes I’ve read that article. It was shortly after that was published that Zipp removed the 28mm from their compatibility list.

Regarding my bike, I’m comfortable with how to proceed. 

This is more a point of principle about accountability/responsibility for manufacturers and safety standards?️

 

[jonwolds]

Thanks for taking the time to

Thanks for taking the time to share your view on the matter. It does seem to reflect where I’m at with this.

I think I can boil it down to one niggle. ISO/ETRTO modified their standards due to examples of tyres “exploding” off hookless rims. This suggests that there were deficiencies in the testing of the wheels. 

To use an analogy – wouldn’t it be like a product recall for a car because there were example of crashes resulting in failing brakes, even though the car manufacturer maintained the car was still safe? Only difference here is there’s no recall – just “buy new tyres”

 

 

 

[Simon E]

You’ve asked, they answered.

You’ve asked, they answered.

Just sell the Continental GP5000 S TR tyres and buy some with a discount if one is offered. Before you do that just ask whether you can return them if they are too tight for the frame. Currently £60 each at Merlin.

Or you could run the 28s until they wear out. I haven’t researched the topic much but my understanding is that the odds of them blowing off are very small unless you’re a big fellow and like to pump your tyres up hard.

Have you read this?

In conversation with Zipp about hookless wheels: are 28mm tyres ok on 25mm hookless rims, and why are the rules for pros different?

Either way I’d not waste too much energy on it at this point.

[OnYerBike]

As far as I can tell, the

As far as I can tell, the “problem” is that ISO/ETRTO changed the rules after the ZIPP 303 Firecrest was developed. 

As such, whilst both ZIPP and Continental intended during product development that you would be able to use 28mm tyres on the Firecrest 303, due to the changed ISO/ETRTO rules, they can no longer recommend that. 

When we had that palava a few months ago, ZIPP made various statements to the effect that they have thorougly tested their wheels with 28mm tyres and believe they are safe. Of course, they can’t make the same statement now – if they advised you to go against current ISO/ETRTO standards and something went wrong, they could find themselves liable. 

So, while I can understand while you are miffed, I don’t think you’ll get very far trying to blame either ZIPP nor Continental.

[Author]

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