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Can aluminium rim brakes ever be as good as disc brakes in the wet?

Apart from the maintenance overhead I've found disc brakes to be great - especially when it's raining. However, I'm toying with getting a lighter and sportier bike with rim brakes (aluminium rims... carbon clinchers make little sense to me) and am wondering if I'll miss that wet weather performance.

What do you think? How close can rim brake performance get to disc brakes?

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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Mike_M | 4 years ago
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Sorry to revive an old thread, but I could not help posting a comment...

 

I have ridden hydraulic discs (mind you, 8 years old now), TRP Spyre mechanical discs, and Ultegra rim brakes.  I have yet to try modern hydraulic disc brakes.

 

My first 'serious' bike came with Avid Juicy brakes. They were powerful and had a great feel, but there was constant disc rub and nothing worked until I just got fed up and got Shimano brakes. The Shimanos were a lot more forgiving when changing wheels and aligning pads.  The hydraulic discs were better in the wet, but I live in Spain so you can live with slightly weaker braking in the wet for most intents and purposes.

 

My commuting bike has mechanical disc brakes, and if you neglect them a bit, they can be dangerous in a hurry. They need a set of pads every few months, and regularly adjusting the pad distance. On the other hand, I haven't done much to the rim brakes in a year and they just work. It's nothing terrible, just a bit of a faff and easy to forget if you don't like to do your own repairs.

 

I ride in far hillier terrain than most in the UK. I descended yesterday a 22 km , 1000 metres of altitude difference mountain pass, and I never missed disc brakes.  Modern Ultegra rim brakes work on par or better than old hydraulic brakes, when used in dry conditions.   Neither me or any of the riders at the club have ever had any issues with rim brake fade or tire blow outs. These things just don't  happen with modern allow rims.

 

A major advantage of disc brakes is if you want a 'one bike to do all'. You get a gravel bike with disc brakes, then a set of 700c wheels with 28-32c tires, and another 27'5" wheelset with 47 mm gravel king SK, and you'll be able to do a lot of different stuff with the bike.  Also, with disc brakes you don't have to worry about your carbon wheels. 

If versatility, ocassional light off-roading , commuting or regularly riding in the rain are part of your plan, then by all means get disc brakes.

If on a tight budget, mechanical discs or something like the TRP Hy/Rd could be an option. 

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mattydubster | 7 years ago
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There were 2 bikes that I had in the past that I remembered having excellent braking abilities in the wet - both were rim brakes and both were campag dual pivot jobbies.  They were awesome and gave me so much confidence on wet descents.  I now have disc brakes on my Enigma which are also pretty damn awesome, although they are only cable (Spyres).  

I think I just prefer discs because I tend to run much wider tyres and IMHO they look proper cool, although I reckon a well set up set of rim brakes can work just as well.  I've never tried hydraulics on a road bike but on my mtb they are really the dogs danglies.

 

 

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andrewball | 7 years ago
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I woulod like to know why there is a great need to scrub so much speed off so quickly. Cycing is a simple act of acquiring momentum and then retaining and protecting as much of it as you can. With good eyesight, good road sense and a bit of good fortune you should be able to survive most attempts to 'murder' youu on the roads, anything other than this would not be hekoped by a parachute and a combination of both disc abd rim.

On a recent decent of many passes in the Alpes and Provence brakes were needed to control the approach speed to a level to take a switchback without losing mometum or speed and not then spend the next minutes trying to get it back without wasting it and converting it all back to heat.

In these circumstances the unskilled in are more likely to grab a handful of Stopping Power, lose traction and doing a quintana into the armco.

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adamthekiwi replied to andrewball | 7 years ago
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andrewball wrote:

I woulod like to know why there is a great need to scrub so much speed off so quickly. [...]

TLDR; we don't need to make things better as they are currently tolerable, and if not you're doing it wrong.

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Jimmy Ray Will | 7 years ago
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Speaking objectively, discs make sense. 

The only real reason not to use discs are the expense of moving over and because you don't like the aesthetics.

Other negatives to consider are the already noted sensitivity of pads to corruption, and the slight weight penalty. 

The postiives;

 - Greater power in all situations, but especially in the wet

 - Greater modulation, which ultimtely means safer braking in all situations

 - lack of rim wear

 - No rim / tyre failure due to braking wear / heat build up

 - will not suffer cable failure or, less dramatically and for more commonly, poor performance due to corrupted / old cables

Whilst I appreciate comments about people reining their necks in and riding safely, better braking allows safer riding in more conditions. 

In short I am fully supportive of discs. I do not have any road discs however as i can't afford it. Chances are I'll be OK all the same. 

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gthornton101 | 7 years ago
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Rim brakes for the most part are very good (with a decent pad on them), however I have Shimano hydraulic discs on my winter bike and they are superb!   A vast improvement on any rim brake I've ridden.

As much as rim brakes will develop and improve so will disc brakes and I think the gap between them will remain pretty consistent.

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kev-s | 7 years ago
1 like

This thread will go on for ever as will any other thats debating about disc v rim

 

All i can say is weigh up your options and try for yourself and see if discs work for you

 

For me personally Discs will always perform better than rim brakes but rim brakes are fine and just need to be used slightly different to discs

 

Ive been using disc brakes on 2 of my road bikes for over 3 years, one bike is a good weather bike, the other is my work/winter bike that does 5000 miles a year in all weathers

 

The work/winter bike uses QR front and rear and the good weather bike is thru axle on the front and QR on the rear (about to be replaced with one with thru axles front & rear)

 

Ive never had any disc rub issues when refitting a wheel on any of the 2 bikes including swapping rear wheels between bikes when one had a puncture just before a ride

 

When cleaning i just use a hose pipe with a spray attachment and this doesnt cause any issues, i also do this on my downhill mtb & enduro mtb which both have thru axles and in 2 years ive never had any brake or bearing issues doing it this way

 

Ive also got 2 rim braked road bikes (one from 1992 the other from 2015)

The brakes work well in the dry and a little slower in the wet as to be expected

The thing i notice is when i go from the disc brake bike to the rim brake bike it takes a couple of miles to adjust my braking to suit but then im fine for the rest of my ride

 

I do notice that i have to brake earlier on certain parts of my ride than i do when im on the disc brake bike, the disc brake bike just gives me more confidence in the braking so i can brake later and have more control over the bike

A bonus of being  downhill/enduro mtb'er is you use the brakes to control the bike to carry as much speed as possible through the course which teaches you a lot of brake/balance control which then can be transfered onto the road bike too

 

Give discs a try (even if you have to rent a disc brake bike) and see if you prefer them to rim brakes, its the only way you will find out

 

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part_robot | 7 years ago
1 like

Anyway I think I'm finally going to bail on this thread for real. Thank you again for all of you who gave me a straight factual answer based on real world experience/knowledge. The right thing to do for me for now, it would appear, is to keep my bike and upgrade to a sportier model as and when I can afford to get one with disc brakes.

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part_robot | 7 years ago
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Also without a doubt my disc brakes are excellent in the rain. 

I hadn't considered thru axels to affect bearing life. Is that genuinely a problem?

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hsiaolc replied to part_robot | 7 years ago
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part_robot wrote:

Also without a doubt my disc brakes are excellent in the rain. 

I hadn't considered thru axels to affect bearing life. Is that genuinely a problem?

 

HE is talking about thru axels. 

You and I both have QR!

 

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part_robot | 7 years ago
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I've found isopropyl alcohol and fire remove contamination of metal pads 100% of the time so far. Bed in and you're good to go. But yeah, washing is a pain. I generally remove the discs and pads now when I'm doing a serious wash because I don't want to go through the above rigmarole. 

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huntswheelers | 7 years ago
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I guess many factors need to be considered in a balanced way..... personally you choose which you prefer and whether you are in need of the "next big thing" in cycling.

From my perspective from the workshop floor....

How about the additional cost replacing freewheel bearings. thru axles reduce the space available for the bearing, hence bearings sometimes only last 1000 miles maximium.

Cost of organic pads that work best in the dry but disintigrate at the first sign of rain. 

Extra hassle cleaning the bike.... which is subjective to how OCD you are

If rim brakes get splashed with chain lube their performance will not be affected provided the oil is washed off, do the same with disc brakes and another set of pads is required or they don't work.

Discs require constant heavy use to remove any contaminant, the amount of pads which will be replaced... kerrrchiing....

Dread to think how dangerous disc brakes would be on a road bike in heavy rain.

And finally.... tyres.. can they take the extra loads on heavy braking.... wide MTB tyres spread the load..a set of 23/25's I have my doubts over

 

My perspective from in the saddle....  I'm sticking with rim brakes and decent pads personally...

Whatever, you pays yer money and takes your choice

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hsiaolc replied to huntswheelers | 7 years ago
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huntswheelers wrote:

I guess many factors need to be considered in a balanced way..... personally you choose which you prefer and whether you are in need of the "next big thing" in cycling.

From my perspective from the workshop floor....

How about the additional cost replacing freewheel bearings. thru axles reduce the space available for the bearing, hence bearings sometimes only last 1000 miles maximium.

Cost of organic pads that work best in the dry but disintigrate at the first sign of rain. 

Extra hassle cleaning the bike.... which is subjective to how OCD you are

If rim brakes get splashed with chain lube their performance will not be affected provided the oil is washed off, do the same with disc brakes and another set of pads is required or they don't work.

Discs require constant heavy use to remove any contaminant, the amount of pads which will be replaced... kerrrchiing....

Dread to think how dangerous disc brakes would be on a road bike in heavy rain.

And finally.... tyres.. can they take the extra loads on heavy braking.... wide MTB tyres spread the load..a set of 23/25's I have my doubts over

 

My perspective from in the saddle....  I'm sticking with rim brakes and decent pads personally...

Whatever, you pays yer money and takes your choice

Its about braking power not about how long you need to clean them. 

But lets work towards what you said.  I use kevelar pads and they are great both dry and wet and you can get them quite cheaply. 

Clearning discs are even easier (never have to clean them because the discs are always shinny in the contact area). 

before clearning your bike just put a towel over the disc and the pads and you are good to go do whatever cleaning you like (not by jet wash). 

Not sure why disc brakes would be dangerous when it is safer than rim in the rain (I know because I ride rim before I switched to disc). 

I am not really sure why I am bothering with all these arguments when clearly we are going to be all disc in the future.  Just like when I started MTB and the debate of the same but now one one sells rim on MTB bikes. 

It is bewilders me how people's reluctance to change even when the advantages clearly outweight the cons and by a long way. 

Either stupid or short sighted. I go with both. 

Tyers taking heavy load of braking? MG.  What people come up with next. 

 

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barbarus | 7 years ago
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No, they can't. But why not stick to riding your new bike in the dry and use the disc brake bike in the wet?

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part_robot replied to barbarus | 7 years ago
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barbarus wrote:

No, they can't. But why not stick to riding your new bike in the dry and use the disc brake bike in the wet?

i wasn't planning on having two bikes, but yes - that's something I was considering.

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Nixster replied to part_robot | 7 years ago
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part_robot wrote:

barbarus wrote:

No, they can't. But why not stick to riding your new bike in the dry and use the disc brake bike in the wet?

i wasn't planning on having two bikes, but yes - that's something I was considering.

You're only considering this? And you call yourself a cyclist? yes

Supersix Evo HiMod DA will be a cracking bike, ride it in the summer and take it easy if you get caught in the rain, simples. Synapse for winter and when rain is forecast and you have to ride. If you want to swap wheels about you'll have issues but applying the right tool for the job is surely going to give you a better outcome. I suggest this will give you more than adequate braking almost all of the time.

 

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part_robot | 7 years ago
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Thanks HowardR - those are some great points and questions.

I almost exclusively ride hills in Surrey, East Sussex and Kent. Most rides are 1-2km in climbs and short gradients of 10-25% are present. There are hedges and there are crazy young drivers in hot hatches. There are also steep drops!

My discs are QR which means maintaining and setting them up is a real chore versus rim brakes as you say. Additionally they will rub when (very!) hot and will also rub when grubby/wet and cornering sharply due to fork/skewer flex. In reality these are very temporary and minor issues but I will admit that's an influencing factor in moving to the Super Six (albeit a small one since all of these problems are solved by thru axles I gather?)

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hsiaolc replied to part_robot | 7 years ago
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part_robot wrote:

Thanks HowardR - those are some great points and questions.

I almost exclusively ride hills in Surrey, East Sussex and Kent. Most rides are 1-2km in climbs and short gradients of 10-25% are present. There are hedges and there are crazy young drivers in hot hatches. There are also steep drops!

My discs are QR which means maintaining and setting them up is a real chore versus rim brakes as you say. Additionally they will rub when (very!) hot and will also rub when grubby/wet and cornering sharply due to fork/skewer flex. In reality these are very temporary and minor issues but I will admit that's an influencing factor in moving to the Super Six (albeit a small one since all of these problems are solved by thru axles I gather?)

 

Are you serious?

 

I have no problem sitting my disc brake wheels into place with QR. Not sure what your problem is.  

With disc I just have to slide back in and never have to worrya bout re adjusting the pads like I did with my dura ace rim brakes. 

Come on. 

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HowardR replied to part_robot | 7 years ago
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part_robot wrote:

Thanks HowardR - those are some great points and questions.

I almost exclusively ride hills in Surrey, East Sussex and Kent. Most rides are 1-2km in climbs and short gradients of 10-25% are present. There are hedges and there are crazy young drivers in hot hatches. There are also steep drops!

My discs are QR which means maintaining and setting them up is a real chore versus rim brakes as you say. Additionally they will rub when (very!) hot and will also rub when grubby/wet and cornering sharply due to fork/skewer flex. In reality these are very temporary and minor issues but I will admit that's an influencing factor in moving to the Super Six (albeit a small one since all of these problems are solved by thru axles I gather?)

Hi Part_Robot 

By the sounds of it my cycling life started in the same area you currently are; Noth Downs, Green sand ridge, High Weald down to the South Downs? 

I can very much see why discs have their attraction - but at the same time why weight saving sounds good. If it were me and my wallet (which it obviously isn't) I'd be very tempted to go for the two bike option (paritcuarly if a Super Six was one of the two). One with disk brakes & all the paraphenalia of winter ridding & comuting (mudguards, lights fatter tyres e.t.c) and the light weight rim braked mount shod with some good climbing wheels & lightweight tyres for the high days & holidays of summer - but then I'm the sort of person who gets more of a buzz of going up hill as fast as I can rather than the drop down the other side.

And - considerations for the longer term.....Have disc brake standards settled down to a point of consistency yet in terms of Axles, OLN dimensions, disc size, mounting method? I dunno, but it does put me off splashing out too much on anything disc equipped ~ on the flip side it might be that discs have been pushed so hard that within a couple of years anything with rim brakes will fall into the same category as the screw on free wheels & quill stems. 

Have fun with whatever you chose.

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carytb replied to part_robot | 7 years ago
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part_robot wrote:

Thanks HowardR - those are some great points and questions.

I almost exclusively ride hills in Surrey, East Sussex and Kent. Most rides are 1-2km in climbs and short gradients of 10-25% are present. There are hedges and there are crazy young drivers in hot hatches. There are also steep drops!

My discs are QR which means maintaining and setting them up is a real chore versus rim brakes as you say. Additionally they will rub when (very!) hot and will also rub when grubby/wet and cornering sharply due to fork/skewer flex. In reality these are very temporary and minor issues but I will admit that's an influencing factor in moving to the Super Six (albeit a small one since all of these problems are solved by thru axles I gather?)

 

Consider getting a bike with thru axles. A lot stiffer and, in my admitedly limmited expeience, far easier to change wheels wth.

 

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hsiaolc | 7 years ago
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NO. 

 

Anyone tell you otherwise is just stupid. I wouldn't bother to read it. 

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HowardR | 7 years ago
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Also to consider........

What sort of terain does your cycling generally take you through? Discs probably hold a bigger advantage over rims if you live in the Lake District than if you live in East Anglia. I live in the latter & spend most of my time trolling along flattish roads, straightish roads with little by the way of hedges and as such (stupid as it may sound) breaking doesnt have a high priority and my rim breaks more than meet my requirements. When I took my self of touring (with a camping load) through bits of the country that had nothing but hills and the roads upon which I traveled where narrow, twisting and bound by high hedges I appreciated the extra 'modulation' that my disc breaks provided [That said...... The first time I used disks & encontered that famous 'modulation' I was strongly reminded of how a well set up pair of centre pull brakes would feel - one of these days I'll find a frame on which I can mount my old Mafac's & test that memory out]

And - your brakes place in your world extends beyond retardation.... Maintainence is much easier with rim brakes & from what I've read just swapping wheels can be a bit of a pain with disks due to subtlety different disk alignments. If you only need one wheel set than that's <obviously!> no problem but as soon as you want to have different sets for different occasions it'll start to niggle every sodding time you fancy swapping them over.

 

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HowardR | 7 years ago
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If you use rim brakes on aluminium rims U WILL DIE - It must be true becase I read it on the Internet.

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Mungecrundle | 7 years ago
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I guess these debates have been going on in some form or another since the Safety or Rover bicycle first appeared in the 1880s much to the disgust of the pro cyclists, racers and established cycling community of the time who looked down on the "dwarf machines" from atop their "ordinarys".

I think it would be fair to say that every cyclist currently using disc brakes has experience of rim brakes. Generally they find discs better for any number of reasons.

It would appear that the die hard disc haters have little / no experience of actually using a technology that they are passionate about despising.

In my experience both rim and disc brakes do the job, but personally I definitely prefer the disc.

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part_robot | 7 years ago
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Yeah, I think we should end it here before it becomes a debate about helmets and car doors  3

So the conclusion is:

1/ Ali with rim brakes can be great

2/ Disc brakes are better in all circumstances

3/ You'll regret moving back to rim brakes

That's what I suspected. I'll just wait until I can afford the new HiMod Evo with discs (or an Izalco Max or whatever it is I end up buying to sate my sporty needs) then.

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Danger Dicko | 7 years ago
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This thread has turned in to a mong off.

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srchar replied to Danger Dicko | 7 years ago
3 likes

Danger Dicko wrote:

This thread has turned in to a mong off.

Cycling has turned into a mong off.

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Chuck | 7 years ago
1 like

I sort of get where SuperPython is coming from, and I have a rim-braked road bike that I am not likely to be getting rid of any time soon. But that said, when you pull the lever in the wet with discs, you're braking, not setting the scene for some braking a bit later on.  That is just better, and TBH I don't really see why anyone who's ridden discs would argue that it isn't. That alone is a big plus to me for urban riding in particular, and that's before you get into rim wear.

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Yorkshire wallet | 7 years ago
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I do get where Superpython is coming from. Part of his point is you shouldn't really be needing to be hitting the brakes that much anyway. I could ride my motorbike at silly speeds and instead of braking if I eased off the throttle in the appropriate place before hand there'd be no real need for braking. I could enter a 30 zone at 30 scrubbing off loads of speed from just sitting up into some nice wind resistance. You can ride fast and smooth and it's even easier on a bicycle given the low speeds. Descents are the only place I ever scrub a load of speed off.

This said I'd still buy discs over calipers at the moment. I don't have experience of top end calipers but I know that entry-mid level stuff is crap compared to entry level discs, especially in the wet. Probably better to be overbraked rather than under. Then again, if you don't know the limitations of either then you're still doing down or into something.

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ktache | 7 years ago
1 like

SuperPython59, I am not prepared to ever argue with yourself, or doubt your truely extensive and incredible knowledge, but, and I am worried about using the word but here, when I was 13 for my birthday and christmas or christmas and my birthday I got my first proper "racer" a pugeot from the littlewoods catalogue. £89.99.  Their cheapest proper racer.  It was blue, had those safety brake things and I think it had 10 gears.  And it had alloy rims and rubber pads.  And cotter pins, one of which got stuck when I completely stripped and rebuilt her just after my "O" levels, before I started work at McDonalds at £1.58 an hour.  Showing my age.  The old 2nd hand "hack" bike that was stolen when I was 11 had steel rims.  I'm 45 now, so that's 32/33 years back.  So what I am trying to say, in the nicest possible way of course, is that you may be underestimating your 32 years of road riding (so you may have even more experience than even you thought you had) or that your first bike had a bit of age when you got it.  I have promised to myself that I would never use an emoticon so I cannot give you a winky symbol,  but Thank You and Goodnight.

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