[ianrobo]

I have been on a Keto diet for 4 months, for those of you that don;t know this is basically a very low level of carbs.

In that time my calorie intake is basically the same but lost 10kg and even more benefit is I can compete say the Rise above sportive on no extra food during it. For training rides, can do 4 hours easy and my stats after an initial expected fall once fat adapted now storming up in front and constantly breaking Strava PB’s.

None of this stuffing gels, or trying to eat a bar, or waiting at food stops to get a bannana. Nope just fill up the bottle and go. I compete last years Marmotte in 11 hours and usual thing of needing food with me, this year doing it again, aiming for up to three hours quicker and saving about an hour with no stopping.

The benefits as I see it are enormous, we know Chris Froome does it and I suspect most of the pro peloton at stages in their training.

So for the good readers here, what are you experiences if on Keto, have you thought about it and how many of you suffer from ‘stomach issues’ as I used to do with gels etc.

 

Topic

[fullupandslowingdown]

I did keto once, for about 10

I did keto once, for about 10 days until I just became utterly bored with the diet. I ate eggs, sausages (chosen for low carb content) cheese, almonds, tuna, mackeral and white fish, chicken and bacon. I cooked everything I could in as much oil as i could just to make up my calorie requirement. My main criteria was to get the carb intake below 20g per day. I also tested my pee each day with dipsticks to see how much ketones I was producing. I felt lethargic to begin with but picked up and was at full throttle by the end. I also took carnitine daily, it’s supposed to help burn fat.

My main benefit seems to have been a much improved ability to go without any food for 24/36 hours, as in the 5/2 diet. I can easily stop eating and not feel hungry after the first 6 hours. I can also do HIIT in the morning on an empty stomach without feeling sick. Thats supposed to boost repair hormones etc.

Can’t say that my overal performance improved, but perhaps I did reverse the slide in performance I seemed to suffer when I followed the advice in a book from a certain doctor who coached US teams a few decades ago, and was firmly of the opinion that to do well at longer duration races, you had to use carbs as fats just didn’t cut the mustard.

I’m firmly of the opinion that everyone is different, what diet works for one won’t be beneficial for another. Keep trying things until something works for you. For instance caffeine works for some as an enhancer, but for me, just makes me tired.

edited to add. When I was doing the high carb thing, I found myself bonking much more frequently and much harder. It was when I still had 10 miles to get home and was reduced to little more than walking pace, that I decided that I needed to look again at the supposed benefits of the high carb, low fat diet. Conversely, I have never bonked when on a diet more 50/50. And I can still sprint like a 25 year old when I want to. (OK, 26 year old)

[ianrobo]

asdfqwerty wrote:

Interesting read. I tried low carb for a few months and it wasn’t for me (I’m loathe to brand it as ‘keto’). I’m happier and healthier on a moderate carb diet. Personally I find the only thing that really matters for me is to have a consistently high protein intake. My diet is healthy and varied, but the only thing I aim for is a high protein intake.

I reckon part of the reason low carb diets can be successful is because calorie-dense but nutrient-sparse carbs get replaced by more nutritious food sources. Frankly I think most ‘diets’ (ways of eating, rather than calorie restriction) will produce positive results because adherence to set principles leads to positive behaviour change in eating, training, etc. 

ianrobo wrote:

I mentioned I did the ride above sportive, 100 miles 3km of climbing thats lots of efforts on climbs and was fine whereas others were desperate for food at the stops or tons in their back pocket.

Points like this from either side of the debate detracts from good discussion. At the same time, people topping up sugar and eating high carb diets were riding faster than you, but it doesn’t mean high carb is better than low carb. It doesn’t mean anything.

Edit: worth noting that correlation does not imply causation when “it helps your cycling”. Just because your FTP has increased since you changed your diet doesn’t mean it’s because you’re on a low carb diet. There are many factors which could have caused that. You’re obviously doing something right and should keep on doing what works for you. For balance, I’d say consider low carb, try it, see if it works, but (like most things) it’s not magical.

I missed this excellent contribution before and only fair I reply.

I have stated it is a personal choice and belief backed by science and especially the FASTER study by Jeff Volek. You mention you eat a lot of protein but naturally a lot of this will be turned into carbs, so a couple of questions are relevant to you.

1) How much do you ride a week and intensity ?

2) How many grams of carbs per day do you have on average ?

3) What type of carbs are they ?

I ask this because simply as I am finding I have increased the carbs from 50g a day to average of 75g, stayed in Ketosis because the exercise is doing the rest. It is all very much a N=1 experiement.

[beezus fufoon]

madcarew wrote:

beezus fufoon wrote:

madcarew wrote:

(NB. A theory is a scientific idea tha has been tested exhaustively and has been widely accepted as representing a good model for the observed phenomenon. A theory is something that has already been backed up by the science)

theory = hypothesis

theorem = proven 

at least that’s what I understood, no doubt they’ve changed it these days to be a little more inclusive after Jess Varnish complained.

 

Beezus Fufoon, you can make up your own meanings for words if you want, I guess. Theorem is a mathematics term (proposition, idea etc) Theory is a natural sciences term (confirmed hypothesis)

thanks Jessica

[madcarew]

beezus fufoon wrote:

madcarew wrote:

(NB. A theory is a scientific idea tha has been tested exhaustively and has been widely accepted as representing a good model for the observed phenomenon. A theory is something that has already been backed up by the science)

theory = hypothesis

theorem = proven 

at least that’s what I understood, no doubt they’ve changed it these days to be a little more inclusive after Jess Varnish complained.

 

Beezus Fufoon, you can make up your own meanings for words if you want, I guess. Theorem is a mathematics term (proposition, idea etc) Theory is a natural sciences term (confirmed hypothesis)

[asdfqwerty]

Interesting read. I tried low

Interesting read. I tried low carb for a few months and it wasn’t for me (I’m loathe to brand it as ‘keto’). I’m happier and healthier on a moderate carb diet. Personally I find the only thing that really matters for me is to have a consistently high protein intake. My diet is healthy and varied, but the only thing I aim for is a high protein intake.

I reckon part of the reason low carb diets can be successful is because calorie-dense but nutrient-sparse carbs get replaced by more nutritious food sources. Frankly I think most ‘diets’ (ways of eating, rather than calorie restriction) will produce positive results because adherence to set principles leads to positive behaviour change in eating, training, etc. 

ianrobo wrote:

I mentioned I did the ride above sportive, 100 miles 3km of climbing thats lots of efforts on climbs and was fine whereas others were desperate for food at the stops or tons in their back pocket.

Points like this from either side of the debate detracts from good discussion. At the same time, people topping up sugar and eating high carb diets were riding faster than you, but it doesn’t mean high carb is better than low carb. It doesn’t mean anything.

Edit: worth noting that correlation does not imply causation when “it helps your cycling”. Just because your FTP has increased since you changed your diet doesn’t mean it’s because you’re on a low carb diet. There are many factors which could have caused that. You’re obviously doing something right and should keep on doing what works for you. For balance, I’d say consider low carb, try it, see if it works, but (like most things) it’s not magical.

[ianrobo]

surfingobo wrote:

The most important part with any diet is that what has worked for me may or may not work for you

Exactly, I am not claiming all shuld do it in this thread but all should look at it and investigate it. 

I do think the vast majority would love it and helps your cycling, today my weight is 83.5kg from 96kg when I started but more improtantly my FTP W/kg ratio is approaching 3 (2.93) and that for me is key.

People forget bonking is abut the lack of blood sugar affecting the brain but the brain works much better on Ketones and only needs 600cal of glucose a day to work. We bonk because if not fat/keto adapted the body depletes of glucose and brain just starts shutting down, never happen in our state.

[surfingobo]

I’ve just registered as I

I’ve just registered as I came across this thread and had a read through and haven’t seen many comments from people actually on the diet.

I have been following a keto diet for around 8-10 weeks now and lost around 11kg.  I fit into clothes I haven’t worn in about 2 years and feel much happier.  During this time I have been very busy with work and my cycling has dropped off to about once a week so can’t comment to much on the way it affects my cycling however the rides I have done since being on keto I haven’t had the sugar crash I’d normally feel.  Under normal conditions I would have to take on food atleast once an hour or I would slow right down, feel light headed and become extremely irratable.  I can now manage 3 hours on the bike and feel fine!.  

I completed the Cotswold Half Iron distance in August in about 6 3/4 hours at a weight of 107kg and after 8 months of dedicated training but almost no weight loss, I tried cutting my food intake in the normal way but then my training suffered, I felt like I was in a catch 22.  I said I would never try another one however I am now seriously tempted to sign up again to see how keto affects my training and race day results as I think the change will be significant.

The greatest difference for me being on keto is nothing to do with sport but is that I don’t get hungry during the day, or if I do I know it’s because I NEED to eat, not any other reason.  I find that if I miss lunch because I’m busy or I forget then I’m OK, pre-keto I couldn’t make it to 11AM without starting to think about lunch!!  I’ve found this a genuinely life changing and liberating experience, I feel like I’ve had some sort of handcuff removed and am finally free!  Pretty much soley due to this I plan to stay keto now as the benefits far outweigh the negatives.

The hardest part was starting, for help I would suggest looking at r/keto on the reddit forum, they have an FAQ in the side bar which is extremely comprehensive.

The most important part with any diet is that what has worked for me may or may not work for you, and arguing about it on the internet isn’t helping you to achieve your goals.  My goal was to lose some weight on this diet and instead I’ve found a lifestyle change that I can sustain (and achieved some milestone goals).  If it works for you then great but if it doesn’t, don’t let that stop anybody else having a go because they might just end up as happy as I am!

[beezus fufoon]

madcarew wrote:

(NB. A theory is a scientific idea tha has been tested exhaustively and has been widely accepted as representing a good model for the observed phenomenon. A theory is something that has already been backed up by the science)

theory = hypothesis

theorem = proven 

at least that’s what I understood, no doubt they’ve changed it these days to be a little more inclusive after Jess Varnish complained.

[ianrobo]

madcarew wrote:

You do carry carbs in your body, but in racaing they will quickly become depleted. I rode a century recently with in Cat 1, 4:07 In the first hour I averaged 82% max HR. This was followed after 3 hours by 2 large hills at 90% HR If I hadn’t taken about 800 cal of carbs with me I would have bonked for sure. 

I agree with your main point, that long rides can be readily undertaken without need for carb or even any fuelling. I rarely eat breakfast, lunch is likely to be a couple boiled eggs and a can of tuna, and I’ll then do 40 – 50 miles training after working as a builder during the day before having dinner. I am something of a fan of keto-adaptation. It isn’t for everyone though, YMMV.

sure it is not and I would say if  you do crits for example you will need carb top ups for sure before the race but train at Keto ?

However for what I do then eating nuts or other kinds or protein the process can create it’s own carbs for the efforts. I mentioned I did the ride above sportive, 100 miles 3km of climbing thats lots of efforts on climbs and was fine whereas others were desperate for food at the stops or tons in their back pocket.

[madcarew]

@ beezus fufoon

@ beezus fufoon

Tim Noakes, Volek, Bergstrom all have multiple papers on the topic. There are literally hundreds on the metabolic changes, performance effects etc on the likes of pubmed / google scholar.

Bergstrom was publishing on this in the late 60’s. It really isn’t anything new, and certainly cyclists have been utilising the effects for many years. Most top cycling (and marathon coaches) will get their athletes to do a long training (2 hrs running, 4 hrs cycling) followed by an hour or so interval session or tempo riding to deplete glycogen reserves and enhance fat metabolism. The chronic calorie restricition practised by elite endurance athletes to keep weight down, by default keeps them in a fat burning state and enhances their fat burning ability well above that of the normal populace

(NB. A theory is a scientific idea tha has been tested exhaustively and has been widely accepted as representing a good model for the observed phenomenon. A theory is something that has already been backed up by the science)

[madcarew]

@beezus fufoon, it all

@beezus fufoon, it all depends on the intensity of the work out, the person etc etc. 60 – 90  minutes is a pretty broad spread. Liver glycogen is a relatively small store , about 25 % of the total store. At half marathon race pace (60 – 65 min) elite athletes approach the end of their glycogen stores. At marathon race pace (125 min) elite athletes approach the end of their glycogen stores… horses for courses.

@ianrobo If your resting HR is 45, max 190 your 70% HR is 145 – 150. As I said,  steady state efforts at this level can be undertaken for many hours in well adapted individuals, but if you have periods of intensity above this(as typically happens in say a race or gran fondo, hilly ride etc) then you will begin to deplete your glycogen stores. Gluconeogenesis is, except in ketogenic individuals at rest, a very minor contributor to glycogen stores, and metabolically expensive so will make a very minor contribution to energy expenditure during exercise.

You do carry carbs in your body, but in racaing they will quickly become depleted. I rode a century recently with in Cat 1, 4:07 In the first hour I averaged 82% max HR. This was followed after 3 hours by 2 large hills at 90% HR If I hadn’t taken about 800 cal of carbs with me I would have bonked for sure. 

I agree with your main point, that long rides can be readily undertaken without need for carb or even any fuelling. I rarely eat breakfast, lunch is likely to be a couple boiled eggs and a can of tuna, and I’ll then do 40 – 50 miles training after working as a builder during the day before having dinner. I am something of a fan of keto-adaptation. It isn’t for everyone though, YMMV.

[ianrobo]

unconstituted wrote:

How much glycogen does someone on a typical keto diet usually have stored in regular tissue and in their liver?

 

we can have the full stores of glycogen that any other athlete has up to 2000 cal and why, well the process of Gluconeogenesis which creates carbs from protein in the body and remeber brain only needs 600cal of cabrs to function and then we still eat upto 200cal of carbs a day.

This works for sure, if it did not then how do I work and train at the levels I do as I eat between 30-50g of carbs a day ?

@mcandrew said

“There is a limit, for everyone, as to how fast they can metabolise fat into available energy. Typically it will be up to about 70% max HR. Beyond this you need to use glucose, so fat is good as a steady state fuel, but high energy efforts will enevitably deplete glycogen stores.”

No one denies for High intensity efforts you need carbs BUT you have enough in your body and if fat adapeted for long rides aboth 70% of max HR will not happen that much. so for example my max HR is 191 and verage rides I do with efforts will be for 3-5 hrs at average HR of 140-145 just above my 70% limit and no need to carb refuel at all.

Remeber carbs are the only macro nutrient the body makes there is really no need to top up outside of of intense max effoerts for a duration so for the vast majority of us, we don;t need the expensive gels etc … if you feel the need to top up take a one quid bag of jelly babies !! each one about 3g of carbs  

 

 

[beezus fufoon]

unconstituted wrote:

How much glycogen does someone on a typical keto diet usually have stored in regular tissue and in their liver?

I’m guessing here, but I suspect that once the body adapts it would probably not be that different – lower insulin would mean it spikes less and so relies less on glycogen, so it would still get stored in the same way, and used more slowly – I’d be interested to see how far the science backs up these theories though.

[tritecommentbot]

How much glycogen does

How much glycogen does someone on a typical keto diet usually have stored in regular tissue and in their liver?

[beezus fufoon]

@madcarew

@madcarew

I think you have left the glycogen stored in the liver out of your formulation there – IIRC, 60-90 minutes is glycogen stored in the muscles, then you bonk, which then activates the liver to dump its stored glycogen

the theory of fat adaptation seems very similar to the same physical conditioning as upping the lactate threshold – by repeated training, the body “learns” to access those energy systems more easily and efficiently

when fat adapted, the lower regular insulin levels that the body has adapted to means that the release of the glycogen stored in the liver is far more gradual.

[Author]

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