In the aftermath of the Alliston case, what should you do if you are a cyclist involved in a crash with a pedestrian?
I have one word of advice for you: Leave.
That’s right. Leave the scene. Get out of Dodge. Get away from the situation as fast as you can. Say nothing to anyone. Give nobody your details. Don’t hang around long enough for anyone to get their phone out. Split. Bugger off. Go home the long way — down as many alleys and across as many parks as possible to avoid CCTV.
Say nothing about the crash to anyone. Don’t discuss it in forums. Don’t tweet or post on Facebook about it. Don’t search on Google for news of the crash or its aftermath. Don’t get your bike repaired. Carry on with your life as if nothing happened.
“But, John,” I can hear you say, “that’s awful advice. Ethically you should stop and help, and isn’t leaving the scene an offence?”
Road Traffic Act: leaving the scene
Last point first: no, it isn’t. Section 170 of the Road Traffic Act makes it an offence for the driver of a motor vehicle to leave the scene of a crash, but it specifically only applies to drivers of “mechanically propelled vehicles” as it quaintly calls them. (That means an engine or motor; your bike’s chain and gears don’t count as the propulsion comes from your legs.)
Section 168 makes it an offence to refuse to give your name and address to “any person having reasonable ground” to require it. But they have to ask for it first. Leave before anyone can ask your name, and you’re in the clear. Martin Porter QC, who drew my attention to this part of the Road Traffic Act, added: “I have never yet been supplied with name and address by [a] motorist I have reasonably suspected of careless driving. Asked a few times.”
Ethically, yes, all of this is dreadful. But the Alliston case has put cyclists in the position where we cannot be sure of being dealt with justly. In fact, we can be sure that we will not be treated justly.
There is no way that Charlie Alliston was guilty of manslaughter, and he was rightly acquitted.
But there is also no way he was riding furiously and wantonly. He was riding at 18mph. Traffic and parked vehicles around him left him with nowhere to go and when he yelled to warn Kim Briggs she stepped back into his path. If that’s furious and wanton riding, I’m a banana.
The brakeless fixie issue
You could argue that Alliston would not have ended up in court in the first place if he hadn’t been riding a bike that wasn’t street legal. Would the Met and the CPS have gone after him if he’d been riding a fixie with a front brake? I believe they would.
The tide is turning against cycling in London. The nonsensical claims that a few short stretches of protected cycleway have caused huge increases in congestion and pollution have stuck. Mayor Sadiq Khan has cancelled or postponed shovel-ready cycling schemes and TfL has mysteriously forgotten how to design new ones if its hopeless, inept Nine Elms and Fiveways schemes are anything to go by. I expect that before the end of Khan’s first term, TfL will announce that Cycle Superhighway 3, the world-class protected cycle lane along the Embankment is to be ripped up.
Meanwhile cycling and walking commissioner Will Norman doesn’t realise that his job is to enable active travel, not to run spin for Sadiq Khan’s preference for roads and buses. Khan is running a PR mayoralty, all talk and no delivery, and calling on others to fix problems like air pollution that are well within his power. But to do so would put him into conflict with the influential bus, taxi and haulage lobbies.
With public opinion increasingly hostile to cycling, the Met and the CPS would have gone after Alliston anyway. After all, a mother of two was, tragically, dead. Something Had To Be Done, and prosecuting Alliston was Something. Alliston had dug a huge hole for himself by his forum and Evening Standard postings. He really was a dream defendant — if you’re a prosecutor.
Given the general ignorance about cycling, a fixie with a front brake could still be easily represented as the equivalent to a Formula One car, and equally inappropriate for the streets. Alliston’s lawyer failed to challenge the Met’s nonsensical braking distance tests in either premise or execution; it’s vanishingly unlikely he’d have been able to mount a defence against the charge of furious and wanton cycling even if Alliston had been riding a bike with brakes.
And I don’t believe the bike made any substantial difference. The instinctive reaction when a pedestrian steps into your path is to try and avoid hitting them. Yes, you’ll slow down too and Alliston did, but Kim Briggs stepped back into his path, they butted heads and she fell to the ground. Had he been going slower (as he would not have had time to stop, despite the Met’s staged video), she might still have fallen, she might still have hit her head on the ground. We just don’t know, and we cannot therefore know that Alliston’s inability to stop faster was the primary cause of Kim Briggs’s death.
The not guilty verdict shows that the jury did not think it was. If Alliston was guilty of an illegal act in not having a front brake, and that illegal act led to Kim Briggs’s death, then he was guilty of manslaughter. If he was not guilty, then his illegal act did not cause Kim Briggs’s death.
That also makes the conviction for wanton and furious driving unsafe too, unless the jury took the view that the injuries that Kim Briggs sustained as a result of Alliston riding into her did not cause her death. That would be a somewhat bizarre conclusion, but that’s juries for you. However, I’m not a lawyer and there may be some twist to the legal reasoning here that I’ve missed. Happy to be corrected in the comments or via Twitter.
The justice system is stacked against cyclists
More broadly, the Alliston case is only the latest example of the justice system failing a cyclist, but it’s unusual in that the rider was accused of perpetrating a fatal crash, instead of being its victim.
London’s police have largely been on the back foot when it comes to cycling since the debacle of Operation Safeway, in which the police targeted minor cycling infringements after several cyclists were killed in London in November, rather than going after the motor vehicle behaviour that kills cyclists. They were pilloried for it by cycling groups, and rightly so.
Presented with an unsympathetic defendant in a cocky, pierced teenager riding a hipster bike, the Met and the Crown Prosecution Service must have thought all their Christmases had come at once.
They therefore charged Alliston with offences that had to be heard in Crown Court, rather than any of the more appropriate lesser offences that would have been heard by magistrates, as Martin Porter QC has pointed out.
There’s a legal maxim that if you want to get off a charge, you go for a jury trial if you can. Juries are composed of people who can’t convince the court they’re too important to be excused jury duty. They tend to be sympathetic to mundane criminality, which is why there are so many breathtaking not guilty verdicts in cases of causing death by careless or dangerous driving.
Charlie Alliston, Daily Mail stereotype
Unfortunately for him, with his tattoos and piercings, Charlie Alliston was as close as it gets to the Daily Mail stereotype of an arrogant, reckless, young tearaway, scofflaw cyclist. There was no way he was going to get a sympathetic hearing from a jury of Londoners who are encouraged to hate cyclists by every story about cycling on the local news, in the London papers, in the national papers, on the BBC and on LBC.
And so it went. Anyone who rides bike knows Alliston’s account of the crash was entirely plausible. Between a parked lorry and moving cars he had nowhere to go. Kim Briggs stepped back into his path (presumably seeing the cars, but not registering Alliston) and he was unable to avoid her.
But by bringing the absurd charge of manslaughter, the CPS could be confident they’d get Alliston for something. I can imagine the jury room discussions. “All right, it’s not manslaughter, but the arrogant git’s guilty of something. What’s this wanton and furious thing? Up to two years bird? Yeah, that’ll do.”
Lynch mob
The resulting atmosphere is that of a lynch mob. I’ve seen posts hoping that Alliston gets anally raped if he goes to prison, and wanting to know his usual riding route so they can string wire in his path. Have you ever seen that for a killer driver?
I fear for the safety of the cyclist next time one of us is involved in a crash with a pedestrian who doesn’t immediately get up and walk away. By bringing this spurious prosecution, the CPS has failed in its duty to act in the public interest. It has made the roads more dangerous, not less.
Cyclists have long known that we will not get justice if we are victims of road violence. Now we can be sure we will not get justice if we are accused of being its perpetrators.
And that means our only recourse is to get away from a crash immediately.
Footnote: If you do choose to stay at the scene of a crash, and there’s even the slightest possibility you might be blamed (in other words, any crash at all in the current climate) say nothing to the police without a lawyer present. Don’t try and be helpful, don’t give a statement. Ask for a lawyer and shut up till he or she arrives.

145 thoughts on “Involved in a crash? Here’s a modest proposal”
Jeeze John.. There’s a lot
Jeeze John.. There’s a lot going on in your article, but do you really think telling the wider cycling community to act immorrally helps our cause brother?
Personally I think this article could sway any of the establishment/lobbyists/busybody’s to ‘help them’ get road based cycling regulated. It wasn’t that long ago that road races were banned in Britain in response to some proposed legislation, road racing was banned to ‘protect cycling in Britain’.
The Alliston case ‘legally is beyond me’ however my opinion is that a pedestrian died and the heirachy of life in this country is pedestrian, human powered vehicle, motor powered vehicle – and I’m okay with that.
What I don’t want is for jaywalking to be a crime.
I don’t want to have ‘riding outside of a bike lane where a bike lane is provided’ to be a crime.
What I don’t want is for London based cycling to represent me, I see far too many stupid, selfish cyclists (and pedestrians and other road users) in London.
I disagree with your summary of the situation, if he’d have braked he may not have hit her with the same force which may have led to injury not death, we will never know, BUT not having the facility to be able to stop within a reasonable distance and taking into account situation in a busy area is totally on him. The kid that killed that lady did kill her wantonly in my eyes, 1) by riding a bike unsuitable for the situation 2) by being unable to exert enough control over the human powered vehicle to change the outcome.
What I do want is for the right to drive of motorists to be redefined from a right to a privilege and for the law to represent that with lifetime bans and more strict sentances.
You’re going to get a
You’re going to get a boatload of Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells responses, and I think I’ve already said everything I want to say on this case BTL on various articles, so I’ll just say ‘hear, hear’.
davel wrote:
im from Tunbridge Wells originally, and I must say I’m disgusted.
18mph on a very busy road
18mph on a very busy road with pedestrians all around is too fast. If you cannot stop on a sixpence you are cycling too fast. Whenever I’m in a built up area I slow down to a pace where I know I can stop immediately if an unexpected situation requires it.
darrenleroy wrote:
My (very limited) experience of London cycling is that if you try to cycle slowly (ie what might otherwise be considered to be too fast around pedestrians) you get grief from both drivers and from other cyclists. You are pressurised into ‘going with the flow’.
darrenleroy wrote:
I don’t really get this. Firstly, I’m almost always ‘in a built up area’, there’s no other kind of area within 20 miles. Secondly if you slow down that much, how do you cope with cars doing a minimum of 40 mph around you? How do you cope with the horn-tooting aggression you will get for being too slow?
If 18mph is ‘too fast’, why on earth are motorised vehicles allowed to do 2 or 3 times that speed in such areas?
I feel very reluctant to defend Aliston, both because he comes across as a bit of a knob, and becuase I am always inclined to side with the pedestrian, who in this case paid a terrible price. One way or another he screwed up, even if the police’s attitude seems kind of biased.
But I don’t get all those insisting that 18mph is ‘too fast’, when its rare for drivers to go that _slow_ on most London roads. The police won’t even enforce 20mph limits.
darrenleroy wrote:
No, 18 mph is the recommended maximum cycling speed on a path shared by pedestrians and cyclists. Stepping out without looking on a ‘very busy road’ on the other hand…
darrenleroy wrote:
Given a car has a longer stopping distance than a bike, what speed should they be going at?
“Ask for a lawyer and shut up
“Ask for a lawyer and shut up till he or she arrives.”
Best* advice ever.
*possibly tied with “Don’t stick it in the crazy”
“Section 170 of the Road
“Section 170 of the Road Traffic Act makes it an offence for the driver of a motor vehicle to leave the scene of a crash, but it specifically only applies to drivers of “mechanically propelled vehicles” as it quaintly calls them. (That means an engine or motor; your bike’s chain and gears don’t count as the propulsion comes from your legs.)“
eBikes might reasonably be considered to fall into that category.
Anniston was stitched up like
Anniston was stitched up like a kipper, even the MET/CPS coming up with the trumped manslaughter charge was so that it would go to a higher court ensuring he was going to get a higher starting tariff and be judged by people they knew would be having no logic when applied to the case was a clear indication as to their real intentions. That wasn’t justice, it was payback/agenda.
Add into which a piss poor defence lawyer, at least the jury saw some sense but it should have being a mis-trail as soon as the false evidence was put into the minds of the juriors regarding the stopping distance.
At worst he should have got done on the Con and Use regs in a magistrates, but frankly it should never have gone to court at all.
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:
Section 35 OAP 1861 is indictable only.
Can the author update the
Can the author update the piece to correct the victim’s name: Kim Briggs not Blake?
I’m hoping that Alliston appeals so that the ‘science’ used in the trial is properly tested…maybe that was the defence’s plan and why it wasn’t challenged…
simplesimon99 wrote:
good spot – blake is dangerously close to brake!
Of course a manslaughter
Of course a manslaughter charge is justified – someone died as a result of an unplanned action by another person. The circumstances are unfortunate but that is why we have trial by your peers.
I would strongly advise to stop and help if you hit anyone. Time after a head injury is crucial. Someone can appear normal but have an internal bleed that might cause a totally avoidable death if medical help is not provided.
I’m not sure if this article is intended to be bad satire but it’s in poor taste at the moment.
kieren_lon wrote:
1. He was found not guilty of that charge, so were the CPS right to charge him, and perhaps the jury wrong in their return?
2. Are you of the opinion that there should be several drivers charged with manslaughter, daily?
davel wrote:
That has nothing to do with what I said. Our opinion counts for nothing here. As already noted, CPS, judge & jury.
kieren_lon wrote:
That has nothing to do with what I said. Our opinion counts for nothing here. As already noted, CPS, judge & jury.— kieren_lon
You seem to have an unreasonable amount of faith in the system.
davel wrote:
Yes & no. It’s one of the best in the world with the privy council is still the highest court of appeal for many countries. However, it’s not perfect and that is recognised with the right to appeal a verdict.
kieren_lon wrote:
Yes & no. It’s one of the best in the world with the privy council is still the highest court of appeal for many countries. However, it’s not perfect and that is recognised with the right to appeal a verdict.— davel
The privy council is the highest court of appeal for many countries largely because Britain historically took over many countries – usually not in a particularly lawful manner. It’s not really a recommendation of the purity and flawlessness of British justice that it’s less corrupt than Zimbabwe, say.
And ‘the right to appeal a verdict’ doesn’t actually make it perfect. The imperfections remain. It has loads of them, most of them reflecting the various imbalances of power in society.
kieren_lon wrote:
Didn’t the woman step out into the road without looking ? If he was in a car he’d have got away Scot free.
fenix wrote:
That’s what the papers say. It’s a public dock, I wasn’t there. He wasn’t in a car so that’s irrelevant.
kieren_lon wrote:
Somebody died as a result of their own intentional act of stepping into the road without first looking. The article is might be in poor taste, but I think it is important to remind cyclists that there is no requirement for them to remain at the scene of an accident and there is no requirement for them to give their details. However it misses one very important point – ‘if you can’.
I may be wrong, but I suspect that in the majority of incidents where pedestrians and cyclists collide, it is the cyclist who comes off worse. The cyclist who suffers the greatest physical injury and the cyclist who suffers the greatest financial loss.
jh27 wrote:
Yes you’re wrong … cyclists only come off worse when they (successfully) attempt to avoid a collision … they come off much better if they let the pedestrian absorb the impact.
nbrus wrote:
Yes you’re wrong … cyclists only come off worse when they (successfully) attempt to avoid a collision … they come off much better if they let the pedestrian absorb the impact.— jh27
Got any data to prove that? It doesn’t seem obviously the case.
Kieren, stop like this driver
Kieren, stop like this driver:
http://road.cc/content/news/228438-manchester-hit-and-run-driver-charged-causing-cyclists-death-dangerous-driving
It’s clearly not satire, it’s controversial but reasonable given the current climate.
I personally think that he
I personally think that he was riding carelessly (whether or not that is wanton and furious is another question) as he didn’t have sufficient brakes for going at 18mph.
However, I agree with the rest of the article though you should ensure that anyone injured has someone to help them before disappearing.
@davel – I’d vote for drivers being charged with manslaughter if it resulted in more convictions or harsher penalties than careless/dangerous driving.
hawkinspeter wrote:
“Whosoever, having the charge of any carriage or vehicle, shall by wanton or furious driving or racing, or other wilful misconduct, or by wilful neglect, do or cause to be done any bodily harm to any person whatsoever, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be imprisoned for any term not exceeding two years …”
I can see how it could be construed that he cause harm by wilfully neglecting to install a front brake. Also what is ‘wanton driving’ the dictionary definition is “deliberate and unprovoked” – so is only accidental driving permitted?
Just to add some context to this… the 1861 Offenses Against the Person Act was written in the time of horse and carts, which probably have top speed of about 15 MPH. It was a long time before the first motor car – there may have been horseless carriages – I wonder what their stopping distance would have been at 18 mph (if they could even reach that speed). It was written before the even the first velocipede – but bear in mind, they would have had a fixed wheel (on the front) and no brake.
Respectfully disagree
I think that when cycling, and travelling with a bike at any speed, we have to expect pedestrians, especially if they are children, to do unexpected things like jump out into the road. It is the law to have a front brake for this reason. He disobeyed the law, and being slower “may” have changed the outcome. As a result, he has to accept at least some of the responsibility in my opinion.
I also disagree with your suggestion that people should leave the scene immediately. Should we not try to help the injured person and make sure they are ok? I would do so and hope that others would do for me.
Until now I have respected this website greatly but this article encouraging others to act like this has certainly changed that. I honestly believe you should think again.
AndyJS wrote:
whenever somebody writes ‘a modest proposal’ you are expected to think of Swift’s original, which is satirical in the extreme.
http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html
http://www.bl.uk/learning/timeline/item126684.html
In this particular example I don’t really think the author has pulled it off. Should have gone much further.
His opinion is as valid as
His opinion is as valid as yours, there’s nothing offensive here. Before the recent incident I would definitely have stopped but the police clearly made up evidence to fit an agenda against an out group…
Quote:
The suggestion of leaving the scene came from a legal point of view and not a moral one. The majority of suggestions are purely legal and had Alliston done this it would have taken plod a little longer to have got hold of him, and I’m sure they would have got hold of him eventually.
As long as the smaller
As long as the smaller minority of idiot cyclists keeps growing in size and people keep trying to defend the indefensible (article above included) you’ll only get a larger backlash against all cyclists especially since they think they are the exception to the assorted laws that do apply to them like most who break them whether in a car, lorry, bus, etc.
kieren_lon wrote:
Perhaps, but from a cyclist’s perspective, the entire road justice system is in an existential state of damned poor taste at the moment. Aliston – albeit a first class knob – gets nailed to the wall and gets a small law library thrown at him for circumstances that would earn the average driver little more than a friendly chat over a cup of tea with the local plod, and if he’s really unlucky, a few points on his licence and a few weekends of community service. And this happens not just once, but hundreds of times a year.
From the legislative arm of government, to the courts, the CPS, local government, the press and the police force, it can seem very much like the whole system is almost universally lined up against us. So sod it, if the system won’t play nice, if the system won’t play fair, then neither should we.
I don’t agree with this point of view, more because it wouldn’t do my psychological health favours at all, but I can understand it. It’s symptomatic of where we are right now. I’m fifteen minutes ride away from where Vicky Myres was killed on Sunday morning, five minutes walk from where Clare Haslam and Deborah Clifton where crushed against a wall and killed in a hospital car park in March, five minutes ride from where Harry Sievey was killed in Fallowfield in February. All by car drivers, in the past six months, within spitting distance from my front door. All charged, certainly, but they’ll all be driving again in a few years time. To quote Richard K Morgan, “There are some arenas so corrupt that the only clean acts possible are nihilistic”.
Alliston was a pillock for
Alliston was a pillock for riding an unroadworthy bike and for not even knowing the rules about brakes.
He should be treated as harshly as the man who, driving at speed on an icy road with three defective tyres, lost control of his vehicle and collided with a group of cyclists, killing 4 of them.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1525561/Driver-fined-180-for-defective-tyres-after-killing-four-cyclists.html
Bentrider wrote:
Tragic outcome, but fair sentencing…
Llandudno magistrates were told that the defective tyres did not contribute to the collision, which was believed to have been caused by the weather.
…police investigation found that Mr Harris’s defective tyres – the front pair and rear nearside – were not the cause of the crash.
nbrus wrote:
— Bentrider
Here you are again, defending the status quo. Thank you Dr Pangloss.
FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:
Tragic outcome, but fair sentencing…
Llandudno magistrates were told that the defective tyres did not contribute to the collision, which was believed to have been caused by the weather.
…police investigation found that Mr Harris’s defective tyres – the front pair and rear nearside – were not the cause of the crash.
— nbrus Here you are again, defending the status quo. Thank you Dr Pangloss.— BentriderWhat’s your opinion on that case? Should the punishment fit the crime, or should it fit the outcome?
nbrus wrote:
First off, the band are crap as well and not to be defended.
Secondly, you really don’t see any inconsistency in that case being blamed on ‘the weather’ (quick, lock up the weather, put it in the cell next to that ‘sun’ that keeps getting in drivers’ eyes), and are happy to accept the bad tyres played no role, while being so convinced that the lack of a front brake was crucial in this case?
If that driver had not been there, had chosen a different mode of transport, or had not been going at the speed they were, four people would not have died.
I don’t see a radical difference between the two cases, certainly not so great as to justify radically different outcomes (granted we have not yet seen the final outcome of this case, so it’s possible it won’t be out of proportion, despite the disproportionate media comment).
FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:
In that case you have a serious inability to reason logically. Let me help you with that one…
Skidding on ‘black ice’ cannot be prevented by having tread on your tyres … that accident was not within the driver’s control. Hence he was prosecuted only for having bad tyres.
In Alliston’s case, he not only had illegal brakes, but he was going at a speed that was unsafe given the lack of front brake and inability to react safely to anticipated events. Yes, pedestrians do step out, and yes he also anticipated that might happen (his first warning shout), but he was going at a speed that he knew he would be unable to stop safely due to his lack of proper brakes (for which he is responsible). His lack of proper brakes played a key role in the death of Mrs Briggs, whereas bad tyres did not play a role in the previous case, hence there was no one to blame for that accident.
nbrus wrote:
In that case you have a serious inability to reason logically. Let me help you with that one…
Skidding on ‘black ice’ cannot be prevented by having tread on your tyres … that accident was not within the driver’s control. Hence he was prosecuted only for having bad tyres.
In Alliston’s case, he not only had illegal brakes, but he was going at a speed that was unsafe given the lack of front brake and inability to react safely to anticipated events. Yes, pedestrians do step out, and yes he also anticipated that might happen (his first warning shout), but he was going at a speed that he knew he would be unable to stop safely due to his lack of proper brakes (for which he is responsible). His lack of proper brakes played a key role in the death of Mrs Briggs, whereas bad tyres did not play a role in the previous case, hence there was no one to blame for that accident.— FluffyKittenofTindalos
Fact remains the deaths in the black ice case would not have happened if the driver had been going at a speed suitable for the conditions – including not being there at all, if the road wasn’t safe to drive on.
Whether Aliston’s lack of front brakes were crucial doesn’t appear to have been established beyond doubt, especially given the very weak nature of the police testing.
There is not a _vast_ gap between the two cases.
The bottom line, is that substantial numbers of people die every year due to drivers’ decision to drive, when they could have done otherwise. Having a bike with inadequate braking is a choice that imposes danger on others, agreed – but so is choosing to drive a motorised vehicle.
And when are all the drivers who drive vehicles that break emissions limits going to be prosecuted for the harm they cause?
FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:
Likewise, the cyclists would not have been killed had they not been there … if the road wasn’t safe to drive on, then it most certainly wasn’t safe to cycle on.
The roads were probably fine in most places, but black ice is very difficult to spot and can take you by complete surprise.
nbrus wrote:
Likewise, the cyclists would not have been killed had they not been there … if the road wasn’t safe to drive on, then it most certainly wasn’t safe to cycle on.— FluffyKittenofTindalos
Nope, doesn’t work as an arugment – It wasn’t the cycling that bought the danger. The killer momentum came with the car.
Or would you argue that Mrs Briggs wouldn’t have been killed had she not been there?
FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:
nbrus wrote:
Where’s the smiley to denote “I’m starting to think you are actually a genuine moron.” ?
FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:
— nbrus Where’s the smiley to denote “I’m starting to think you are actually a genuine moron.” ?— FluffyKittenofTindalosLove you too…
FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:
In that case you have a serious inability to reason logically. Let me help you with that one…
Skidding on ‘black ice’ cannot be prevented by having tread on your tyres … that accident was not within the driver’s control. Hence he was prosecuted only for having bad tyres.
In Alliston’s case, he not only had illegal brakes, but he was going at a speed that was unsafe given the lack of front brake and inability to react safely to anticipated events. Yes, pedestrians do step out, and yes he also anticipated that might happen (his first warning shout), but he was going at a speed that he knew he would be unable to stop safely due to his lack of proper brakes (for which he is responsible). His lack of proper brakes played a key role in the death of Mrs Briggs, whereas bad tyres did not play a role in the previous case, hence there was no one to blame for that accident.
— nbrus Fact remains the deaths would not have happened if the driver had been going at a speed suitable for the conditions – including not being there at all, if the road wasn’t safe to drive on. Whether his lack of front brakes were crucial doesn’t appear to have been established beyond doubt, especially given the very weak nature of the police testing. There is not a vast gap between the two cases. The bottom line, is that substantial numbers of people die every year due to drivers’ decision to drive, when they could have done otherwise. Having a bike with inadequate braking is a choice that imposes danger on others, agreed – but so is choosing to drive a motorised vehicle. And when are all the drivers who drive vehicles that break emissions limits going to be prosecuted for the harm they cause?— FluffyKittenofTindalos
This is the idiot that has been here under 3 different usernames now isn’t it – defending drivers and claiming to ride a bike within mm of the kerb because he is a wonderful human?
The ban hammer can’t be far away but he serves as a demonstration of all that is wrong with our laws, moral standpoints and the application of it. Very simple logic that he seemingly fails to understand:
Bike without correct braking backup travelling under the speed limit collides with inattentive pedestrian stepping into the road and freak fall results in death = manslaughter charge (police present misleading evidence to attempt to secure conviction)
Car with a minimum of 3 issues not making it roadworthy, travels at a speed unsuitable for the conditions, kills 3 people as tons of metal travelling at excessive speed kills = £180 fine (evidence presented to defend motorist that cannot be proved to be correct)
And he thinks there’s no issue here?
alansmurphy wrote:
Car with a minimum of 3 issues not making it roadworthy, travels at a speed unsuitable for the conditions, kills 3 people as tons of metal travelling at excessive speed kills = £180 fine (evidence presented to defend motorist that cannot be proved to be correct)
And he thinks there’s no issue here?— alansmurphy
Nope, wrong … I do think there is an issue, but the issues regard a prat taking to the road in an unroadworthy vehicle was not what resulted in the accident. He was presecuted for the offences he was responsible for. Are you saying that he should have been done for manslaughter even if he’d been driving a well maintained and road legal vehicle? Should you be done for multiple manslaughter for causing a bus to swerve (and crash) to avoid hitting you? In which case maybe they should avoid swerving and simply mow you down.
nbrus wrote:
You see, this has always bothered me about this particular case.
The defective tyres were not seen as contributory due to the black ice… I contest this to a degree… yes tyre tread clears water and avoids aquaplaining which was totally irrelvant in this case. However, tyre tread also causes movement of the tread, which generates heat, which leads to grip. defective tyres will not have been working to the parameters designed by the manufacturers so their performance would have been compromised.
It is/was far too simple an observation to say that tread was irrelevant in this case.
And to further work this point… if the conditions were so bad, and the accident so unreasonably avoidable why was the accident isolated to one car… one that happened to have defective tyres.
If a corner was made undrivable due to black ice, there would have been a collection of crashed cars on the exit of that corner. There was not… other vehicles had managed to pass that corner without incident.
Therefore in my opinion either the way that car was driven, or something fundamentally different about the cars handling caused that car to lose control when it did.
So… there are similarities here between the two cases. However, they are not the same.
Jimmy Ray Will wrote:
The defective tyres were not seen as contributory due to the black ice… I contest this to a degree… yes tyre tread clears water and avoids aquaplaining which was totally irrelvant in this case. However, tyre tread also causes movement of the tread, which generates heat, which leads to grip. defective tyres will not have been working to the parameters designed by the manufacturers so their performance would have been compromised.
It is/was far too simple an observation to say that tread was irrelevant in this case.
And to further work this point… if the conditions were so bad, and the accident so unreasonably avoidable why was the accident isolated to one car… one that happened to have defective tyres.
If a corner was made undrivable due to black ice, there would have been a collection of crashed cars on the exit of that corner. There was not… other vehicles had managed to pass that corner without incident.
Therefore in my opinion either the way that car was driven, or something fundamentally different about the cars handling caused that car to lose control when it did.
So… there are similarities here between the two cases. However, they are not the same. — Jimmy Ray Will
You make some good points, though we are not in a position to make judgments about the evidence here as we don’t have access to the full details of the case. What we can say is that if we accept that black ice was the cause of the accident, then the judgment was fair.
When in doubt, the law always errs on the side of not guilty so as to avoid any miscarraige of justice.
nbrus wrote:
He should be treated as harshly as the man who, driving at speed on an icy road with three defective tyres, lost control of his vehicle and collided with a group of cyclists, killing 4 of them.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1525561/Driver-fined-180-for-defective-tyres-after-killing-four-cyclists.html— nbrus
Tragic outcome, but fair sentencing…
Llandudno magistrates were told that the defective tyres did not contribute to the collision, which was believed to have been caused by the weather.
…police investigation found that Mr Harris’s defective tyres – the front pair and rear nearside – were not the cause of the crash.— Bentrider
Would that investigation have had the same rigorous scientific procedures as the stopping tests applied in the Alliston case? If so, its work less than fuck all.
Tbh the Charlie Alliston case
Tbh the Charlie Alliston case was a joke. However i think that Charlie Allistons attitude and complete lack of remorse played a big part in the CPS decision to try him for manslaughter.
By all accounts he shouted at the woman as she lay seriously injured on the floor and then placed comments about the accident on social media blaming her for the accident, as well as never once being apologetic for what happened that day.He really created his own downfall. If i was the person who crashed into this woman i would have done all i could to help her and certainly would never have used social media to blame her for the accident. I,m sure i would have been gutted to hear that she had died and was the mother of two children. I would most definitely have asked to speak to her family and answer any questions they may have , if this would be allowed or not i don,t know.
In my opinion Charlie Alliston did all the things you should not do.unfortunately for him he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. One thing certainly springs to mind. Charlie Alliston said that even if he had brakes he would not have had time to use them . Thats nonsense, if you have time to shout twice at somebody then you certainly have time to pull your brakes.He is obviously a very inexperienced cyclist. The charge of wanton or furious cycling i find also a joke. Again it comes down to Charlie Alliston. On one side you have a very arrogant, unremorseful young man riding a bicycle thats not street legal. he collided with a woman who later died. At the scene he was seen shouting at her then he placed comments blaming her for the accident on social media and apparently shown no remorse for the accident.
On the other side you have a woman in the prime of her life married with two children.
I feel that police and the CPS want to charge this young man with something purely to give some sort of justice to the family of the deceased woman. It reminds me of a case years ago when a man killed four cyclists and seriously injured eight others after skidding on black ice. He only got fined for having three bald tyres.
Bedevere, innit?
Bedevere, innit?
“I’ve seen posts hoping that
“I’ve seen posts hoping that Alliston gets anally raped if he goes to prison, and wanting to know his usual riding route so they can string wire in his path. Have you ever seen that for a killer driver?”
Ummm, well, yes I have actually. Regularly, right here on road.cc, in the comments after every report of a driver getting a 2-year ban & £100 fine for killing a cyclist with an appalling & egregious example of not giving a damn about anyone else on the road. But hey-ho, you can never have too much hate in the world, eh?
Remind me again, what is it two wrongs don’t make?
There **is** a deep & terrible injustice here, but it’s not that Alliston has been convicted under a stupid 19th century law. Instead the real horror of this case is that had Alliston been driving a car rather than riding a bicycle the police would have written it off as another sad accident & no-one’s fault, a la Michael Mason. **Everyone** who’s responsible for a serious traffic incident should be prosecuted & convicted, not just cyclists.
oceandweller wrote:
Yeah, but that’s the point being made, I think. You pretty much _only_ see it here (and only from over-excitable regulars, and always disagreed with by others). Whereas the comments in this case are much more common in what one would have to call ‘the mainstream media’.
This article advocates
This article advocates profoundly unwise and antisocial behaviour. You really should think about removing it before it gets taken up elsewhere.
This article is bullshit.
This article is bullshit.
If you’ve injured another human being stop and help them.
Ask yourself what you would want people to do if it was your relative lying there injured.
Then do exactly that.
The Daily Mail are currently trawling cycling websites looking for anything to paint cyclists in a negative light.
Well done for making their job a whole lot easier.
Rich_cb wrote:
What’s the alternative: cyclists write reasonable articles pointing out discrepancies? Been done for years – how is it panning out? It isn’t making the Mail alter their course of cyclistbashing; it isn’t making the CPS charge drivers appropriately.
Ped steps out in front of car; driver swerves to avoid them; ped readjusts into car’s path; car hits them around 10mph. That’s a set of circumstances that would see a driver hailed as trying to avoid the collision.
Accepting the status quo isn’t working. Something drastic is needed… Not sure what, and I’m not sure eschewing decency (as some are interpreting the artice as) is the way to go, but some sort of diversion away from just shrugging and trying not to get killed is badly needed.
davel wrote:
What’s the alternative: cyclists write reasonable articles pointing out discrepancies? Been done for years – how is it panning out? It isn’t making the Mail alter their course of cyclistbashing; it isn’t making the CPS charge drivers appropriately.
Ped steps out in front of car; driver swerves to avoid them; ped readjusts into car’s path; car hits them around 10mph. That’s a set of circumstances that would see a driver hailed as trying to avoid the collision.
Accepting the status quo isn’t working. Something drastic is needed… Not sure what, and I’m not sure eschewing decency (as some are interpreting the artice as) is the way to go, but some sort of diversion away from just shrugging and trying not to get killed is badly needed.— Rich_cb
Furthermore – in most discussions here you will have seen most people agree that Alliston was wrong and should be facing a form of punishment. Many people are saying they don’t agree with this article from a moral standpoint and are unlikely to do as suggested.
To have reasoned debate about incident, laws, moral, the application of them shouldn’t really be too scary even for the Daily Heil; reading below the line on their site (where cyclist should be hung, drawn and quartered) is where the problem lies…
Could things be better than they currently are?
Yes, they could be a lot better.
Could things be worse?
Yes, they could be a whole lot worse.
There are a huge number of voters who would love to see cyclists banned from the roads altogether.
Posting inflammatory bullshit like the article above is far more likely to make things worse than better.
You may not think much progress has been made but the relative risk of cycling has plummeted in recent decades.
There is still a long way to go but there is light at the end of the tunnel, driverless technology and driver assistance technology should lead to a huge fall in collisions, injuries and fatalities.
Within that context the political will to prosecute negligent driving should improve.
Rich_cb wrote:
I for one think it’s a good idea to know where you stand as regards the law – if you don’t like it then maybe write to your MP or start a petition.
beezus fufoon wrote:
If you’re happy for a relative of yours to be left to die at the side of the road then that’s fine.
I personally think anyone encouraging that sort of behaviour is a complete arsehole.
Rich_cb wrote:
I for one think it’s a good idea to know where you stand as regards the law – if you don’t like it then maybe write to your MP or start a petition.
— Rich_cb If you’re happy for a relative of yours to be left to die at the side of the road then that’s fine. I personally think anyone encouraging that sort of behaviour is a complete arsehole.— beezus fufoon
It’s an article, illustrating a point. This is how shit and one-sided the justice system is.
ps: I disagree with your “Posting inflammatory bullshit like the article above is far more likely to make things worse than better”. Even if that point is correct, we’re losing badly enough already. It’s a hopeless mismatch. We’re England, heading out in the quarters 3-0 to Germany. Let’s just carry on the way we are and try not to lose 10-0, eh? Not for me.
I don’t share your optimisim about driverless cars either – I hope they’re the future but they’ll take ages to get here.
davel wrote:
Just take a look at Australian cycling laws, could that happen in the UK?
Definitely.
All it takes is for the populist press to start campaigning. Articles like this would be gold dust to an anti cycling campaign.
In fact I’d be surprised if the Daily Mail don’t actually pick up on it.
Rich_cb wrote:
It’s an article, illustrating a point. This is how shit and one-sided the justice system is.
ps: I disagree with your “Posting inflammatory bullshit like the article above is far more likely to make things worse than better”. Even if that point is correct, we’re losing badly enough already. It’s a hopeless mismatch. We’re England, heading out in the quarters 3-0 to Germany. Let’s just carry on the way we are and try not to lose 10-0, eh? Not for me.
I don’t share your optimisim about driverless cars either – I hope they’re the future but they’ll take ages to get here.
— Rich_cb Just take a look at Australian cycling laws, could that happen in the UK? Definitely. All it takes is for the populist press to start campaigning. Articles like this would be gold dust to an anti cycling campaign. In fact I’d be surprised if the Daily Mail don’t actually pick up on it.— davel
I’m trying hard to imagine ‘campaigning’ that doesn’t resemble where we are already. We are there, in my view, and a liability law isn’t going to drop out of the sky, not with us on this trajectory.
But we are not, and won’t become, Australia (for the same reason I can’t envisage one of our MPs wearing a protest burkha in parliament).
davel wrote:
At least we don’t have to have insurance, numberplates and a license.
nbrus wrote:
Nor do quite a few motorists.
Rich_cb wrote:
On balance, I don’t think the article was a good idea. It sounds as if it comes straight from a place of anger, and for ‘editorial’ (as opposed to BTL venting) I’d far rather see measured restrained, post-sleeping-on-it, comments.
But I really have to roll my eyes at the reasoning that says ‘constantly tip-toe around the topic because one bad article might upset them and make all the difference when otherwise we are sure to win’. The anti-cycling campaign doesn’t need any real material, they can just make it up in endless quantities. Giving them ‘gold dust’ is going to make negligible difference when they have tonnes of fake stuff that do just as well.
I mean how well did the “when they go low, we go high” approach work out for the Democrats against Trump?
Conservatism in general is a force of immense power, composed of pure stupidity. Nothing can stand in the way of stupid people in sufficient numbers.
FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:
I don’t think you can call opposition to hit and run advice ‘tiptoeing around’?
A young mother has been killed by a cyclist and a prominent cycling website responds with advice to leave any pedestrian you hit for dead.
That’s absolutely disgusting. No excuses.
FWIW I do think we’ll win, in fact I think it’s inevitable. Within 20 years I expect car driving to have all but disappeared while cycling will continue.
Rich_cb wrote:
I agree, the bicycle is unstoppable … particularly fixies … but joking aside the rise of e-bikes will make cycling popular among those less fit. I think roadcraft skills should be taught at school so that everyone knows how to ride safely (and behave properly) including those that become motorists. Better cycling infrastructure will take decades to appear but it is already happening. Self-driving cars and a move towards renting cars on demand will free up space on our streets and roads and clean up our air. It will take decades, but it will defintely happen.
Rich_cb wrote:
no, a middle aged woman died from hitting her head on the ground because she was too lazy to walk to extra 10 metres to the crossing and wait for the lights
because of this a teenager on a bike has become a national scapegoat and might end up doing time
beezus fufoon wrote:
Yawn.
The only thing that comment is good for is cutting and pasting into any of your future complaints about victim blaming.
Rich_cb wrote:
no, a middle aged woman died from hitting her head on the ground because she was unable to walk to extra 10 metres to the crossing and wait for the lights
because of this a teenager on a bike has become a national scapegoat and might end up doing time
— Rich_cb Yawn. The only thing that comment is good for is cutting and pasting into any of your future complaints about victim blaming.— beezus fufoon
you’ll have a long wait then
beezus fufoon wrote:
no, a middle aged woman died from hitting her head on the ground because she was unable to walk to extra 10 metres to the crossing and wait for the lights
because of this a teenager on a bike has become a national scapegoat and might end up doing time
— Rich_cbWasn’t this teenager riding without due care and attention, regardless of whether or not any accident took place? Was ho trying to set a new strava record perhaps? I think we’re all going to disagree on this, but the courts will decide.
nbrus wrote:
yes, as you said on a different thread – a small fine and some community service would be appropriate
beezus fufoon wrote:
I don’t think anyone is suggesting anything more. I also don’t think Alliston is a bad person, but he does appear to lack empathy. If he gets time, then it might be due to his complete lack of remorse.
nbrus wrote:
I don’t think anyone is suggesting anything more. I also don’t think Alliston is a bad person, but he does appear to lack empathy.— beezus fufoon
maybe no one posting on this site, but the wider perception seems a lot more reactionary – even if the judge is independently minded enough to remain unswayed, the comments John has reported in the above article and the comments from cyclists noticing increased hosility suggest there will be problematic consequences purely because of the media’s need to sensationalise and to create these moral panics.
beezus fufoon wrote:
The media is where we get all our information from … everyone here has used the media as a basis for their own opinions. If anything I hope we get improvements to cycling infrastructure because of this … keeping cyclists away from vehicles and pedestrians. Yes, I’m a bit optimistic.
nbrus wrote:
The media is where we get all our information from … everyone here has used the media as a basis for their own opinions. If anything I hope we get improvements to cycling infrastructure because of this … keeping cyclists away from vehicles and pedestrians. Yes, I’m a bit optimistic.
— beezus fufoon
actually I think many people here get their opinions from their own directly lived experience of cycling on uk roads
beezus fufoon wrote:
and John’s article will help dispel that wider perception… …how? Shall I refer my borderline anti-cycling colleagues to it?
Jitensha Oni wrote:
I’m a bit skeptical that’s how propaganda works – you can’t really undo a prejudice that is based upon emotional manipulation with a reasoned argument
John seems to have decided to draw a line in the sand, arbitrary though they may be, I understand why he’s done that.
Quote:
Where have you pulled this latest pile of horseshit from, your troll pit is full of shite. Is every collision due to the cyclists lack of care and attention if a bird hits a car windscreen has the driver shown a lack of care and attention.
A new Strava record? Fudge off you fudging carrot! Even if he was and remained below the speed limit what’s the problem? If it had been a car that hit her she probably would have been charged with wanton and furious twittering.
alansmurphy wrote:
Yes, if he crashed into a pet shop.
Are you about ready to cum?
beezus fufoon wrote:
no, a middle aged woman died from hitting her head on the ground because she was too lazy to walk to extra 10 metres to the crossing and wait for the lights
because of this a teenager on a bike has become a national scapegoat and might end up doing time
— Rich_cb
I want to know why she was not wearing a helmet? Seriously. They are cheap and widely available and designed exactly for such circumstances.
FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:
I think it’s actually not just one of the best pieces on this tragedy, but one of the best things that road.cc has published (apart from many of their technical reviews).
Agree with you on the pointlessness of trying to be a compromiser in the face of aggression though. Some fights actually have to be fought.
Rich_cb wrote:
I for one think it’s a good idea to know where you stand as regards the law – if you don’t like it then maybe write to your MP or start a petition.
— Rich_cb If you’re happy for a relative of yours to be left to die at the side of the road then that’s fine. I personally think anyone encouraging that sort of behaviour is a complete arsehole.— beezus fufoon
bit presumptuous – I have no relatives!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4194196/One-crash-day-involving-cyclists-pedestrians.html
nbrus wrote:
What’s that supposed to prove? Is it a scientific study showing who comes off worse of collisions between cyclists and pedestrians? Doesn’t appear to be. Certainly I challenge you to show that the division of injuries is anywhere near the same as with collisions between motorists and pedestrians.
Doesn’t surprise me that you use the Daily Mail as a source.
Absolutely agree that mixing walking and cycling is a bad idea. Which is why space needs to be taken from drivers.
You tell me how they were
You tell me how they were able to replicate the exact same conditions to come up with the answer he couldn’t have stopped. Just one tyre may have been off the ice (half a tyre even), or the ice may have been thinner at one point, churned up to slush. It certainly wouldn’t have been the same after he went over it as before let alone at whatever point they tried to investigate.
Him setting out in an unroadworthy car absolutely had a bearing on him killing people.
alansmurphy wrote:
Ok, I think I see your problem … you don’t trust the Police … you believe they deliberately make up evidence and reinterpret witness statements and do everything possible to side with motorists against cyclists. The legal system is completely rigged against cyclists and you are very angry about that. I absolutely get it. Now we just need to prove it.
nbrus wrote:
Rigged against cyclistsd probably not. Rigged in favour of motorists becausethey are the majority group, yes, probably. Maybe not even intentionally.
oldstrath wrote:
This is a nuanced and essential point that I’m glad you made. All too often this complaint is mistaken for the claim that there is a conspiracy against cyclists.
nbrus wrote:
Almost – the police clearly decide who they think is to blame and then try to make the evidence fit, and they are just as suceptible to prejudiced thinking as the rest of us with no direct experience of a situation – that is why the media frenzy surrounding this case is inappropriately disproportionate.
beezus fufoon wrote:
Agree, I think that is exactly what happens … Police are not there to prove innocence, they are there to bring prosecutions in respect of the victim (I could be wrong). This is normal.
If a case gets to court, then the judge/jury do not pick sides … they start with a blank slate and look at both sides of the argument.
I think we already have.
I think we already have.
Have you seen the stopping distance video used in the Alliston case?
How can you prove 5 minutes after a car has passed over ice how a car with different tyres would act?
Then we just need to look at the discourse that surrounds the several hundred car drivers killing a pedestrian each year and the charges presented compared to the rare incidents involving a cyclist.
If the WiFi under your bridge allows access to other sources, give it a go. As a cyclist yourself, do these things not concern you?
alansmurphy wrote:
Yes, I would be very concerned if I believed some great injustice was taking place. And I’ll be here pointing it out. I’ve still to see it.
I have seen the stopping distance video on the Alliston case … I’m not sure how useful it is seeing as Alliston didn’t manage to stop within 6.53 m whereas a bike with normal brakes managed to stop within 3 m in the wet and without lifting the rear wheel. Kind of proves the point.
nbrus wrote:
Are you saying that that video represents a reasonable test of how Alliston’s bike would have behaved in the collision, had it had a front brake?
davel wrote:
Seems reasonable … even with considerable margin for error (6.53 – 3 = 3.53 m). They did the test in the wet and they didn’t use disc brakes. Granted it isn’t perfect, but they did suggest even a butchers bike could have stopped in time … who rides a butchers bike? It would be nice to see some stopping distances for the actual bike. Why would a fixie without a front brake be classed as non road legal without a front brake if the stopping distances weren’t impacted? Have they been improperly categorised? Should they be road legal? Unless someone does more tests, then the Police tests are all we have.
nbrus wrote:
the reason why you have to have two independent braking systems is to provide back-up when one of them fails. Failure of the only braking system would be catastrophic.
ConcordeCX wrote:
Thanks … I should have googled that.
ConcordeCX wrote:
Which is why I have always run a front brake on my fixie although I rarely actually use it in practice … once the lockring popped off the rearhub and boy, was I glad I had a front brake.
nbrus wrote:
Is this the video where a police cyclist can clearly see the upcoming cone and plan to brake as he goes past it? Where they probably had several practice takes and chose the one where he timed his braking best? This is in no way representative of real life.
Reaction time for an unexpected hazard (pedestrian stepping out between parked vehicles) is far longer than for an anticipated hazards (pedestrian stepping out on zebra crossing). And he was travelling at 18mph = 8 metres/ second.
Avicenna wrote:
Reaction time for an unexpected hazard (pedestrian stepping out between parked vehicles) is far longer than for an anticipated hazards (pedestrian stepping out on zebra crossing). And he was travelling at 18mph = 8 metres/ second.— Avicenna
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Alliston aware of the potential hazard before it became a hazard? He shouted his first warning before Mrs Briggs stepped out and before he took avoiding action. He could have chosen to slow down first just in case she stepped out, but he kept on going instead. He was already aware there was a potential problem ahead.
(I’ll retract that as I can’t find where I got that from … but two shouts in 1 second is a lot … I can’t do it).
Setting aside the moral
Setting aside the moral objectionability of the suggestion you should hit-and-run… in a busy urban at least the chances of making a clean escape, whether at the time or subsequently, may be fairly slim.
If there aren’t useful witnesses to the collision (some of whom might intervene – I think I might) then I’d thought you are quite likely to be traceable via CCTV before the incident. Perhaps all the way to your point of origin (workplace/home).
And if you’re caught having done that then no-one will care if they stepped out in front of you or you couldn’t reasonably avoid them.
Charlie Allison was probably found guilty as much for what he did either side of the collision as for the tragic incident itself. You shouldn’t go to jail just for being a twat – but he probably will.
Embankment
It would be terrible if CS3, the segregated route along the Embankment was ripped out. Maybe we should start a petition about this now.
Any cyclist like to bet that
Any cyclist like to bet that they won’t be prosecuted under Section 170 of the Road Traffic Act for leaving the scene if they collide with a pedestrian and scarper? Despite the claim that this applies only to motor vehicles (or ‘mechanically propelled vehicles’) I wouldn’t count on that as an argument. Alliston was convicted of ‘wanton and furious driving’ but you don’t ‘drive’ a bicycle. Also, his legs count as a rear brake, apparently. You’ll likely be done for ‘hit and run’ if you leave the scene regardless of the lack of a proper definition, and no one will even care.
http://www.ereleases.com/pr
— Rich_cb Articles like yours will never make things better, they can only make things worse. All you’ve done is pander to the aggressive, inconsiderate cyclist stereotype that the tabloids constantly reference. You’ve got a platform, you could use it to do some good, at the moment you’re just doing the Daily Mail’s work for them.— John Stevenson
http://www.ereleases.com/pr-fuel/biggest-pr-myth-of-all/
…
I could go on and on with examples of how bad publicity has hurt brands of all sizes, but I think you’re starting to get the point. The truth is there is such a thing as bad publicity. And while all of the brands I mentioned can and likely will eventually recover, the bad publicity they’ve received has done some serious damage for at least the short term and maybe longer.
Good job the other Jonathan
Good job the other Jonathan didn’t have comments enabled on his original modest proposal.
Rich CB
“Articles like this can only do harm. They cannot improve things for cyclists”.
I disagree entirely – if two cyclists follow the advice and are not subject to manslaughter charges and
evidencebeing stitched up by the Plod then things have improved for cyclists.“Technology is also on our side, cameras give us evidence, driver aids reduce the risk posed by inattention, longer term self driving technology will eradicate the ‘professional’ driver and all their lobbying will be for nought”.
Technology may be on our side but again this doesn’t overcome the entrenched bias as most forces make it difficult to submit the evidence and then deem it ‘unfit’ to use. As for driver aids in cars, many of them appear to be making people lazier and the main pieces of technology used to sell cars are media centres which will do the opposite of what you wish.
To put people straight on
To put people straight on several items, it isn’t illegal to ride a bike on the road without a front brake if the seat is below 635mm from the ground, or there is no secondary link between the propulsion and the wheel being propulsed.
That means a childs bike is allowed on the road without a front brake, a recumbrent is allowed on the road with out a front brake (provided the seat was low enough) and a penny farthing is also allowed on the road (legs propel the front wheel).
So please stop saying that bikes on the road without a front brake is illegal, there are caveats.
As for the police dealing with drivers and cyclists differently in the terms of a crash:
A neighbour and friend was unfortunately killed by a HGV two years ago. The road was straight, visibility was exceptional, neither bike nor HGV was found to be defective. At the scene of the crash, another friend who was nearly killed by the HGV (he saw it at the last minute and avoided it), was placed into the back of a police car for fourty minutes, whilst the driver was allowed to walk around, be questioned, etc. I’ve not been in the back of a police car, but apparently, you are locked in.
So the guy who has just had a near death experience, watched his friend get crushed by a HGV, is left alone in the back of a police car for 40 minutes. No medics saw him, in fact they weren’t made aware that another cyclists was involved, whilst the driver was seen to by medics etc. His words not mine, is that the police basically wanted him out of the way. His respect for the police evaporated after that fateful day.
The same police force have publically stated that Northamptonshire does not have a problem with close passes since their data supports such a stance. However, they don’t actually collate any data on the subject! They also told me that close passes are a very small part of total collisions, until I pointed out that if there’s a collision, it’s an RTC/RTA not a close pass.
So yes, the police do actually treat cyclists and drivers completely different, in favour of the driver, even when the driver is clearly at fault.
As a complete tangent,
As a complete tangent, something that irks me about the whole business is that there will never be any payback for the thoughtlessness of the driving-addicted petrolheads. Either they will continue to dominate, to everyone’s cost, or, if there is a radical change somehow, they will just benefit from a shift to cleaner, more-space-efficient, and healtheir modes of travel along with everyone else. They’ll just lap up the benefits without ever acknowledging they spent so long trying to deny them to everyone.
It’s quite annoying.
FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:
John F. Kennedy:
Things will coninue to
Things will coninue to improve for cycling, but at a slow pace. The reason is not enough people on bikes to warrant spending more. As more people take to bikes, then more money will be spent on cycling infrastructure. It will be slow as it gathers momentum, but things will continue to improve. In the meantime all the technology that is making motoring safer (e.g. collision avoidance systems, driverless cars, etc.) will improve road safety for all of us. Below are the numbers of people cycling in the UK (2015) … how much money will be invested in cycling infrastructure given these figures? How can we get these numbers up? … More bike shares maybe?
http://www.cyclinguk.org/resources/cycling-uk-cycling-statistics
nbrus wrote:
And dwarfing those figures are the numbers that want to sit on their arses and do nothing. Same numbers-ish of people do not even do 10 minutes brisk walking per month (6 million) as those who even use a bike at all.
That’s a lot of people who could be won round to cycling. But they’re not being. Their numbers are growing more rapidly than cyclists’ – for each person that might get on a bike occasionally, several more are becoming even more sedate. ‘We’ – those regular cyclists who give a shit – are vastly outnumbered by the chronically lazy.
How are you optimistic about increasing numbers of cyclists?
davel wrote:
Lots of reasons…
There is an overall concern with public health and cycling is one way to promote a healthy lifestyle. This will cut down the cost of funding the NHS.
Global warming is a real concern (ignoring Trump) and electric cars don’t help in that regard, they only reduce pollution … electricity still needs to be generated. Bicycles are a clean mode of transport.
Cars are expensive to run, bicycles are not. People have less money now than before the last financial crisis, so any way to save money and get healthier at the same time is appealing. It will become even more appealing as family budgets are squeezed.
Driverless cars and Uber will result in more people choosing not to own a car, but hire one on demand. If the cost is low enough this will make a lot of sense and will free up our roads and streets. Car shares may become popular … borrow one when you need it and pay a rental and membership fee. Fewer cars on the road and safer driving technology will result on more people feeling safe enough to cycle.
Public transport is expensive and not as convenient as we’d like. Being able to hop on a bike and go where you want, whenever you want is very liberating.
Most people find cycling requires too much effort, particularly on hills, and you arrive at your destination all sweaty and in need of a shower. E-bikes solve that problem, but they need to get cheaper and longer range.
Theres lots more cycling sports being covered on TV now than in previous years, and its very popular even amoungst those that don’t cycle … some will be motivated to take up cycling.
Cycling is already popular in other countries like Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Japan, Switzerland, Belgium, China, etc. and it will get more popular here. It just takes time.
I don’t think its promoting cycling that will get us there, its natural forces (such as mentioned above) that will. People will take to it when they are ready. We’re just not quite there yet.
nbrus wrote:
Lots of reasons…
There is an overall concern with public health and cycling is one way to promote a healthy lifestyle. This will cut down the cost of funding the NHS.
Global warming is a real concern (ignoring Trump) and electric cars don’t help in that regard, they only reduce pollution … electricity still needs to be generated. Bicycles are a clean mode of transport.
Cars are expensive to run, bicycles are not. People have less money now than before the last financial crisis, so any way to save money and get healthier at the same time is appealing. It will become even more appealing as family budgets are squeezed.
Driverless cars and Uber will result in more people choosing not to own a car, but hire one on demand. If the cost is low enough this will make a lot of sense and will free up our roads and streets. Car shares may become popular … borrow one when you need it and pay a rental and membership fee. Fewer cars on the road and safer driving technology will result on more people feeling safe enough to cycle.
Public transport is expensive and not as convenient as we’d like. Being able to hop on a bike and go where you want, whenever you want is very liberating.
Most people find cycling requires too much effort, particularly on hills, and you arrive at your destination all sweaty and in need of a shower. E-bikes solve that problem, but they need to get cheaper and longer range.
Theres lots more cycling sports being covered on TV now than in previous years, and its very popular even amoungst those that don’t cycle … some will be motivated to take up cycling.
Cycling is already popular in other countries like Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Japan, Switzerland, Belgium, China, etc. and it will get more popular here. It just takes time.
I don’t think its promoting cycling that will get us there, its natural forces (such as mentioned above) that will. People will take to it when they are ready. We’re just not quite there yet.— davel
Trying to be polite, I think your post is at best ridiculously optimistic. First, self driving cars will not help us, in fact they ate likely to lead to more demands to clear the streets of cyclists to make it easier. Second, the countries you name don’t just happen to have cyclists. They have serious infrastructure. At least in the Netherlands resulting from strong public protests.
Your “wait and all will be well if only we are nice to motorised maniacs” will go exactly nowhere.
oldstrath wrote:
Your “wait and all will be well if only we are nice to motorised maniacs” will go exactly nowhere.
— oldstrathMaybe you’re right. I looked into Netherlands on Wikipedia…
So basically, there was a strong reason for change consisting of several factors and not simply protests, but protests against high numbers of child deaths. Oil crisis etc. That’s the point I was making … natural forces … whatever shape that might take (economic, technology, etc.). Given that the majorty don’t cycle, protesting by ‘we want’ isn’t going to convince those people to spend more on cycling infrastructure. They are going to have to see a benefit for them so that they will be motivated to support more investment.
In the UK we are already seeing better cycling infrastructure and cycle friendly policies such as restricting motor vehicles in towns and cities. Granted the pace isn’t as quick as we’d like but it is definitely happening. Do you have any ideas on this?
nbrus]
Maybe you’re right. I looked into Netherlands on Wikipedia…
In the UK we are already seeing better cycling infrastructure and cycle friendly policies such as restricting motor vehicles in towns and cities. Granted the pace isn’t as quick as we’d like but it is definitely happening. Do you have any ideas on this?
[/quotas
Maybe it’s better where you live. In rural Scotland it becomes worse. Less enforcement, a government going around crowing about the amount of money pissed away on new roads while offering up fantasy nonsense about 10% cycling share, apparently by miracle, Sustrans sticking their name on paths that are not fit for purpose, indeed barely fit to be described as paths in some cases.
I don’t know. Vote only for Greens, hope something motivates similar protests to those that occurred in the Netherlands. Give up and stick to off road cycling?
nbrus wrote:
Change is not happening at all, not in a positive way. Explain why KSI for road users is going up, explain why despite greater helmet use for instance and more segregated in London there are more seriously injured people who ride bikes?
the UK is going backwards not forwards, we can’t wait for a natural situation, not that the oil crisis was natural anyway. The polce have lost control of the roads, they are now targetting and have done for a while the group that does by far the lesser harm, the government are failing to act, you only need look at how the CTC et al have had no joy whatsoever with the recent committee’s and asking for changes. Even the mayor of London has stopped all cycling infra.
my local authority hasn’t done anything for cycling since I moved here 21 years ago, in fact made it worse. Cut off one of the link roads to the next town/hospital with a bypass road and didn’t install a crossing of any sort. We are still stuck with the same shitty ideas that were shit in the 1999 Urban Transport Plan for the area, none of which have being completed anyway, my local police force are not interested in close pass initiatives, not interested when a car collides with you, not interested in hit and run cases but happy to blame the victim for wearing a grey jacket, happy to pervert the course of justice and cover their own when caught out trying to intimidate a victim of crime so as to drop the case. Tthey are interested in threatening bicyclists with public order offences for reacting to dangerous driving.
I can guarantee this will be replicated up and down dale.
but crack on with the things will change theme, without action, direct action, nothing will change even in 20 years.
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:
Because helmets have no significantly measurable role in diminishing serious head injuries. http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3817
Ush wrote:
I know that but it was to illicit a response from nbrus who thinks that things are changing in a positive direction when the stats are showing they aren’t, they also suggest that we should wait for a natural event to force that change. The promotion of helmets and the onus on safety pushed onto the vulnerable by government and other agencies and the blame culture by the police for not wearing such has gone totally in the wrong direction.
Waiting for that and other aspects of safe cycling, infra, justice etc to change naturally is ridiculous, hence my post.
nbrus wrote:
Lots of reasons…
There is an overall concern with public health and cycling is one way to promote a healthy lifestyle. This will cut down the cost of funding the NHS.
Global warming is a real concern (ignoring Trump) and electric cars don’t help in that regard, they only reduce pollution … electricity still needs to be generated. Bicycles are a clean mode of transport.
Cars are expensive to run, bicycles are not. People have less money now than before the last financial crisis, so any way to save money and get healthier at the same time is appealing. It will become even more appealing as family budgets are squeezed.
Driverless cars and Uber will result in more people choosing not to own a car, but hire one on demand. If the cost is low enough this will make a lot of sense and will free up our roads and streets. Car shares may become popular … borrow one when you need it and pay a rental and membership fee. Fewer cars on the road and safer driving technology will result on more people feeling safe enough to cycle.
Public transport is expensive and not as convenient as we’d like. Being able to hop on a bike and go where you want, whenever you want is very liberating.
Most people find cycling requires too much effort, particularly on hills, and you arrive at your destination all sweaty and in need of a shower. E-bikes solve that problem, but they need to get cheaper and longer range.
Theres lots more cycling sports being covered on TV now than in previous years, and its very popular even amoungst those that don’t cycle … some will be motivated to take up cycling.
Cycling is already popular in other countries like Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Japan, Switzerland, Belgium, China, etc. and it will get more popular here. It just takes time.
I don’t think its promoting cycling that will get us there, its natural forces (such as mentioned above) that will. People will take to it when they are ready. We’re just not quite there yet.— davel
These are all great conditions and I agree with them almost entirely. But it doesn’t answer my question regarding why cycling is going to increase in popularity.
*Despite* this backdrop of a perfect storm for cycling going through the stratosphere, we have the reality on the ground in the justice system, the trollumnists, the letdown politicians.
My argument runs exactly counter to yours: look how unpopular and unsupported cycling is, *despite* it making perfect sense to back it to the hilt. And I don’t think we have time: at least some of your conditions (eg. British sporting success) are at their zenith right now.
I wish I shared your optimism, but logic doesn’t just prevail. It takes massive effort by people willing to stick their neck on the line, particularly when the rabble-rousers are paid by car advertisers and policy-makers are paid by motor lobbyists and scared of upsetting the motor industry.
davel wrote:
Maybe I am overly optimistic, but I don’t think shouting louder will help much … the masses that don’t cycle need to be convinced … they need to see a benefit to themselves before they will stick their neck out in support of cycling. Given the state of our roads, that will be more important to them than diverting money to cycling infrastructure. I’ve still seen improvements where I live, but I am in a city, so that probably plays a large part in this. As regards the British cycling team, wasn’t it ‘marginal gains’ that was responsible for their success? Or as Tesco put it … every little helps.
nbrus wrote:
Lots of reasons…
There is an overall concern with public health and cycling is one way to promote a healthy lifestyle. This will cut down the cost of funding the NHS.
Global warming is a real concern (ignoring Trump) and electric cars don’t help in that regard, they only reduce pollution … electricity still needs to be generated. Bicycles are a clean mode of transport.
Cars are expensive to run, bicycles are not. People have less money now than before the last financial crisis, so any way to save money and get healthier at the same time is appealing. It will become even more appealing as family budgets are squeezed.
Driverless cars and Uber will result in more people choosing not to own a car, but hire one on demand. If the cost is low enough this will make a lot of sense and will free up our roads and streets. Car shares may become popular … borrow one when you need it and pay a rental and membership fee. Fewer cars on the road and safer driving technology will result on more people feeling safe enough to cycle.
Public transport is expensive and not as convenient as we’d like. Being able to hop on a bike and go where you want, whenever you want is very liberating.
Most people find cycling requires too much effort, particularly on hills, and you arrive at your destination all sweaty and in need of a shower. E-bikes solve that problem, but they need to get cheaper and longer range.
Theres lots more cycling sports being covered on TV now than in previous years, and its very popular even amoungst those that don’t cycle … some will be motivated to take up cycling.
Cycling is already popular in other countries like Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Japan, Switzerland, Belgium, China, etc. and it will get more popular here. It just takes time.
I don’t think its promoting cycling that will get us there, its natural forces (such as mentioned above) that will. People will take to it when they are ready. We’re just not quite there yet.— davel
Seriously? Is this meant to be a serious argument?
None of those ‘reasons’ are remotely plausible justifications to believe cycling is going to naturally increase (the ‘sports on tv’ one is particularly risible).
It’s already popular in countries like the Netherlands because they made a massive conscious effort to remodel the roads to make it attractive and plausible for ordinary people. And it has _declined_ in China as people have become richer, declined quite dramatically in fact, you can’t be so dim that you don’t know that.
Driverless cars (if they ever happen, which I think is highly doubtful) will just lead to pedestrians and cyclists being pushed off the streets entirely to make their calculations simpler.
I don’t believe you are dim enough to really believe what you just wrote. So it has to be just dishonesty.
As for the remaining ‘reasons’ – if any of those were going to persuade more people to cycle it would have happened decades ago, when in fact the long-term trend has all been in the other direction.
All that list tells me is that you don’t in fact have any problem with the existing situation at all and don’t really want anything to change and you post under false-pretences, something that has long been obvious.
FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:
These are just examples … I’ll try and keep it simple for you next time as I don’t have the energy/willpower to spell everything out for you. You’re hard work. But I wouldn’t change a thing.
“Things Can Only Get Better”
“Things Can Only Get Better” was a song by Northern Irish musical group D:Ream.
The Labour Party notably used it as a theme during the party’s campaign in 1997.
20 years later and we’re still holding our breaths!
The more you post the less I
The more you post the less I believe you go out on a bike. London appears to be the only place where there’s even half decent infrastructure and that’s because the transport system in the city is largely fucked. Yet they still manage to kill dozens and just write it off as it doesn’t really matter.
Employers and out of town shopping centres are aware that car is king and do nothing except extend car parks and open up megastores on new areas of green land further away from transport links. Yeah they’ll paint and odd line on a pavement but it really is going nowhere and seems merely to tick a box or give the motons more angst.
Within a few hundred meters of where I live there’s a cycle path thats on a cars turn into a doctors surgery, I used it twice daily around 250 days a year. I’ve seen one car stop. There’s a cycle path that puts you onto the road facing traffic on the hump of a bridge, there’s one that ends with metal railings so you can’t get on the road and there’s one by the side of a dual carriage way that simply disappears for bus stops (do we float).
People could be choking on their own exhaust fumes to drive 800 metres to the doctors and still wouldn’t consider giving up their cars. The only cause of a shift will be a significant change in attitude, maybe you could be first…
alansmurphy wrote:
Employers and out of town shopping centres are aware that car is king and do nothing except extend car parks and open up megastores on new areas of green land further away from transport links. Yeah they’ll paint and odd line on a pavement but it really is going nowhere and seems merely to tick a box or give the motons more angst.
Within a few hundred meters of where I live there’s a cycle path thats on a cars turn into a doctors surgery, I used it twice daily around 250 days a year. I’ve seen one car stop. There’s a cycle path that puts you onto the road facing traffic on the hump of a bridge, there’s one that ends with metal railings so you can’t get on the road and there’s one by the side of a dual carriage way that simply disappears for bus stops (do we float).
People could be choking on their own exhaust fumes to drive 800 metres to the doctors and still wouldn’t consider giving up their cars. The only cause of a shift will be a significant change in attitude, maybe you could be first…— alansmurphy
I was out on my bike today and for 4 hours no less … went to take a look at the new Queensferry bridge … I don’t do that everyday of course.
I can understand why you are so pissed given your description of what its like where you are. If you only cycle and don’t have a car then all the out-of-town shopping will be a real pain and it has become the norm almost everywhere. Employers like out-of-town industrial estates as it saves them money and moves the cost and inconvenience onto the employee (that’s just one of the reasons I needed a car). Most people are lazy and won’t give up their cars … those people will have shorter lives and more health problems. Even that doesn’t seem to motivate them. Maybe we need celebs on bikes to convince them? It won’t. On a brighter note, a shift in attitude anywhere in the country will trickle down to where you happen to live. At least they are making some attempt, which is a whole lot better than not even bothering.
nbrus wrote:
No they aren’t and it isn’t as I JUST said.
They are doing what the have to do when they build a new road – putting in a shared use path alongside a new road that joins busy roads that few use. Net result additional cost nobody using them, poor state of repair, cyclist using road and people taking vengeance on cyclists.
Or do you think the lanes I previously mentioned are better than nothing? Are you suggesting rather than my kids being taught to ride safely on the road they should be forced onto infrastructure not fit for purpose. Or again, should drivers be allowed to intimidate because they aren’t using such thing.
I imagine those who you claim are making these decisions have barely seen a bike…
nbrus wrote:
So you lookef at the new bridge. Now imagine how much value our government could have given cyclists and public transport with the money they’ve hosed away on that and dualing the A9. They talk about cycling and walking a lot, but come the finish all Sturgeon Cates about is hrt bloody vanity project bridge.
As said though, every little
As said though, every little doesn’t help. Paint a cycle lane that’s dangerous to cyclists and watch how the motorists behave if you use the road. What has helped, is every little cyclist that died and every motorist that walked away Scott free helped them feel invincible!
‘one of us, one of us….’
‘one of us, one of us….’ 🙂
Strict liability. Or summat.
So Boardman agrees with the
So Boardman agrees with the majority here – the roads are dangerous largely due to big metal killing machines and piss poor infrastructure supported by terrible laws and sentencing, and Charlie A or a.n other riding a fixie with no brake is a bit of a dick?
What’s your point again?
alansmurphy wrote:
My point is that progress in infrastructure improvements might be painfully slow, but it is happening and will gather momentum as those not on bikes see what is happening in places like Manchester. The bit you left out.
nbrus wrote:
Please enlighten me, what is happening in Manchester?
https://goo.gl/images/8f3C1k
alansmurphy wrote:
(Chis Boardman) … has been appointed by the mayor, Andy Burnham, to revolutionise greater Manchester’s streets.
nbrus wrote:
Now you’re just making stuff up – revolutionise you say?
Last time he tried that…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/recreational-cycling/10464893/Chris-Boardman-ban-HGVs-from-our-rush-hour-roads.html
You really are delusional aren’t you?!
alansmurphy wrote:
I’m optimistic … improving infrastructure is different to banning HGV’s as that affects business.
I suspect that this isn’t
I suspect that this isn’t the last we’ll hear of this case and that at some point it will be used by politicians as a deflection from a much more serious matter:
Interviewer: “Following Brexit, how will the UK make up the shortfall in EU Road Safety Grants?”
Chris Grayling (or whover): “I think what you’re really asking here is whether, as the Alliston case highlighted, the law relating to helmets, speed regulations and personal insurance for cyclists should be revisited”
You said he was going to
You said he was going to revolutionise – your word, not there’s.
So what you’re saying is more paint is on order so long as Starbucks still get their marshmallows and only the odd cyclist gets crushed to death. Seems to fit with your agenda nicely!
alansmurphy wrote:
Not my words actually…
He seems to be looking at it long term, rather than expecting overnight change. In the meantime we need to keep shouting.
nbrus wrote:
Which is exactly my point – I (and others) were arguing this and you were arguing against it roughly a page ago. Keep shouting. Keep banging the drum. Every now and then create an article that some people just don’t understand.
Burnham and Boardman can’t really do much wrong in my eyes… But the idea that whatever battles they ‘win’ for cycling in Manchester are just going to spread throughout the country is a tad naive, no?
davel wrote:
I’ll just answer both of you in one post…
Firstly, I am not suggesting we should wait for a natural forces to improve cycling infrastructure … what I am saying is that shouting won’t be what gets us there. We’ll get ignored as we’ve already been shouting and it hasn’t done much good. The change will happen when the greater masses that don’t cycle see a benefit to themselves such that they will support the cost of making a change. That benefit might be cleaner air due to fewer motor vehicles on the road, safer town centres free from congestion that are more pleasant places areas to be, and even ecomonomic or technology reasons. They aren’t going to change simply because a relatively small proportion of the population that cycles are shouting for change.
There’s only so much money to go around and if you ask any motorist whether that money should be spent on cycling infrastructure or road improvements they will say road improvements. So you need some way to convince the non-cycling masses to support improvements to cycling infrastructure. For example, if congestion/air pollution are a problem, then the non-cycling masses will see a benefit to themselves by reducing congestion/air pollution, and one way to reduce congestion/air pollution is by resticting access to town/city centres by motor vehicles and putting in cycling infrastructure. They won’t be convinced by cyclists shouting louder. But keep shouting regardless, I’m not saying to stop.
Secondly, any improvements to cycling infrastracture that happens in Manchester will be looked at by town planners throughout the country. If they see things happening in London, Cambridge, Manchester, and elsewhere, they will feel it necessary to join in. They don’t work in complete isolation. Successes in one area do slowly migrate to other areas and momentum builds, until it becomes the norm. Yes, its slow, but it will happen. If you want change to happen faster, then something significant will need to happen such that the non-cycling masses are also pushing for change.
So when you said Burnham
So when you said Burnham appointed him to revolutionise, Burnham had never actually said those words?
And to take it further, he’s hoping to close a street more than a mile long, with some of Manchester’s biggest department stores to ALL traffic when he couldn’t stop any lorries in ANY part of London when he was policy adviser despite 6 cyclist deaths in 2 weeks.
Given we know you like shopping you could be “disgusted from Tunbridge Wells”
Your optimism is baffling!
alansmurphy wrote:
It baffles me … I’m not prone to being optimistic … for instance, I don’t see you becoming optimistic any time soon.