BMX bike tops list of retro “toys”; Poll: Strava app ditches Bluetooth and ANT+ support – but are you bothered? Sunweb U23 rider Edo Maas left paralysed after Piccolo Lombardia crash; Police seek thug who pushed cyclist into hedge + more on the live blog

44 thoughts on “BMX bike tops list of retro “toys”; Poll: Strava app ditches Bluetooth and ANT+ support – but are you bothered? Sunweb U23 rider Edo Maas left paralysed after Piccolo Lombardia crash; Police seek thug who pushed cyclist into hedge + more on the live blog”

1. Quote:

   is stopping commuters getting to work on public transport justified?

   Of course not – while the average car journey within London is responsible for the release of 138g CO2/passenger/mile (excluding emissions during the car’s production), the average Tube journey results in the generation of just 48g CO2/passenger/mile, making the Tube one of the most carbon efficient forms of transport.

   Not quite as good as a bicycle at 25g CO2/mile, but nowhere near as bad as a car.

   Even if, like me, you’re not of the opinion that billions of humans will die over the next several decades due to CO2 emissions, it’s difficult to think of a form of transport with a smaller local environmental impact than the tube – half of it is underground and the trains are all electrified.

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   • srchar wrote:

     Of course not – while the average car journey within London is responsible for the release of 138g CO2/passenger/mile (excluding emissions during the car’s production), the average Tube journey results in the generation of just 48g CO2/passenger/mile, making the Tube one of the most carbon efficient forms of transport.

     Not quite as good as a bicycle at 25g CO2/mile, but nowhere near as bad as a car.

     Even if, like me, you’re not of the opinion that billions of humans will die over the next several decades due to CO2 emissions, it’s difficult to think of a form of transport with a smaller local environmental impact than the tube – half of it is underground and the trains are all electrified.

     — srchar

     I think the mask has truly slipped for Extinction Rebellion now.

     They don’t really care about the environment they just want to cause disruption.

     I can’t think of a form of mass transit that is less polluting than the tube.

     With more modern trains and an increasingly low carbon electricity supply it will only get cleaner as well.

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     • Rich_cb wrote:

       Of course not – while the average car journey within London is responsible for the release of 138g CO2/passenger/mile (excluding emissions during the car’s production), the average Tube journey results in the generation of just 48g CO2/passenger/mile, making the Tube one of the most carbon efficient forms of transport.

       Not quite as good as a bicycle at 25g CO2/mile, but nowhere near as bad as a car.

       Even if, like me, you’re not of the opinion that billions of humans will die over the next several decades due to CO2 emissions, it’s difficult to think of a form of transport with a smaller local environmental impact than the tube – half of it is underground and the trains are all electrified.

       — Rich_cb I think the mask has truly slipped for Extinction Rebellion now. They don’t really care about the environment they just want to cause disruption. I can’t think of a form of mass transit that is less polluting than the tube. With more modern trains and an increasingly low carbon electricity supply it will only get cleaner as well.— srchar

       However, XR’s protest is not really aimed at getting individuals to become “greener”, it’s about how government is ignoring/delaying the issues. One of their aims is to get government to actually speak the truth about climate issues (e.g. what is our government doing about toxic air in cities?).

       Their aim is to cause disruption to get the government to act, so although disrupting the tube may be considered unfair in terms of penalising the commuters, it’s also an effective way to hit businesses and get more publicity.

       I think part of the issue with governments is that they are trying to “blame” consumers for the global climate issues whereas big business is far more to “blame” and yet their shenanigans are allowed to continue (e.g. fracking).

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       • hawkinspeter wrote:

         Their aim is to cause disruption to get the government to act, so although disrupting the tube may be considered unfair in terms of penalising the commuters, it’s also an effective way to hit businesses and get more publicity.

         — hawkinspeter

         It’s entirely the wrong type of publicity though. The government is elected by the people. It’s a fallacy that you can change the government’s attitude in isolation; you’ll always need to bring a large number of voters along with you. Disrupting the train services on which people commute might well impact “business”, but the targeting is indiscriminate.

         I’d expect to get dragged off the top of a commuter train regardless of the subject of my protest, frankly.

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         • srchar wrote:

            Disrupting the train services on which people commute might well impact “business”, but the targeting is indiscriminate.

           — srchar

            

           At least the BBC reported on it, they’ve ignored it on a daily basis so far. You know what they say about publicity…

         • visionset wrote:

            Disrupting the train services on which people commute might well impact “business”, but the targeting is indiscriminate.

           — visionset

            

           At least the BBC reported on it, they’ve ignored it on a daily basis so far. You know what they say about publicity…

           — srchar

           Targeting mass public transport makes driving a more reliable option. Pretty stupid own goal worthy of a Donald Trump award for genius strategy.

           What next, setting fire to the bike sheds? At least that would get a story on Road.cc and you know what they say about publicity…

         • srchar wrote:

           Their aim is to cause disruption to get the government to act, so although disrupting the tube may be considered unfair in terms of penalising the commuters, it’s also an effective way to hit businesses and get more publicity.

           — srchar

           It’s entirely the wrong type of publicity though. The government is elected by the people. It’s a fallacy that you can change the government’s attitude in isolation; you’ll always need to bring a large number of voters along with you. Disrupting the train services on which people commute might well impact “business”, but the targeting is indiscriminate.

           I’d expect to get dragged off the top of a commuter train regardless of the subject of my protest, frankly.

           — hawkinspeter

           The history of protest movements has always involved antagonising people, so time will tell as to whether disrupting the tube is effective or not.

           I have some issues with your “The government is elected by the people” statement – I’d say that big businesses, media companies and FarceBook lies have a significant part to play too. (Don’t even mention our current buffoon in “charge”).

         • hawkinspeter wrote:

           Their aim is to cause disruption to get the government to act, so although disrupting the tube may be considered unfair in terms of penalising the commuters, it’s also an effective way to hit businesses and get more publicity.

           — hawkinspeter

           It’s entirely the wrong type of publicity though. The government is elected by the people. It’s a fallacy that you can change the government’s attitude in isolation; you’ll always need to bring a large number of voters along with you. Disrupting the train services on which people commute might well impact “business”, but the targeting is indiscriminate.

           I’d expect to get dragged off the top of a commuter train regardless of the subject of my protest, frankly.

           — srchar

           The history of protest movements has always involved antagonising people, so time will tell as to whether disrupting the tube is effective or not.

           I have some issues with your “The government is elected by the people” statement – I’d say that big businesses, media companies and FarceBook lies have a significant part to play too. (Don’t even mention our current buffoon in “charge”).

           — hawkinspeter

           Took the words out of my mouth.  Big business, corporations, mega-donors have a massive effect.  As the old saying goes “If voting changed anything, they’d abolish it.”

       • hawkinspeter wrote:

         Of course not – while the average car journey within London is responsible for the release of 138g CO2/passenger/mile (excluding emissions during the car’s production), the average Tube journey results in the generation of just 48g CO2/passenger/mile, making the Tube one of the most carbon efficient forms of transport.

         Not quite as good as a bicycle at 25g CO2/mile, but nowhere near as bad as a car.

         Even if, like me, you’re not of the opinion that billions of humans will die over the next several decades due to CO2 emissions, it’s difficult to think of a form of transport with a smaller local environmental impact than the tube – half of it is underground and the trains are all electrified.

         — hawkinspeter

         I think the mask has truly slipped for Extinction Rebellion now. They don’t really care about the environment they just want to cause disruption. I can’t think of a form of mass transit that is less polluting than the tube. With more modern trains and an increasingly low carbon electricity supply it will only get cleaner as well.

         — Rich_cb

         However, XR’s protest is not really aimed at getting individuals to become “greener”, it’s about how government is ignoring/delaying the issues. One of their aims is to get government to actually speak the truth about climate issues (e.g. what is our government doing about toxic air in cities?).

         Their aim is to cause disruption to get the government to act, so although disrupting the tube may be considered unfair in terms of penalising the commuters, it’s also an effective way to hit businesses and get more publicity.

         I think part of the issue with governments is that they are trying to “blame” consumers for the global climate issues whereas big business is far more to “blame” and yet their shenanigans are allowed to continue (e.g. fracking).

         — srchar

          

         Given that consumers ARE to blame, I’m not sure what the problem is.

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         • Htc wrote:

           Given that consumers ARE to blame, I’m not sure what the problem is.

           — Htc

           That’s debatable: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/09/polluters-climate-crisis-fossil-fuel

       • hawkinspeter wrote:

         However, XR’s protest is not really aimed at getting individuals to become “greener”, it’s about how government is ignoring/delaying the issues. One of their aims is to get government to actually speak the truth about climate issues (e.g. what is our government doing about toxic air in cities?).

         Their aim is to cause disruption to get the government to act, so although disrupting the tube may be considered unfair in terms of penalising the commuters, it’s also an effective way to hit businesses and get more publicity.

         I think part of the issue with governments is that they are trying to “blame” consumers for the global climate issues whereas big business is far more to “blame” and yet their shenanigans are allowed to continue (e.g. fracking).

         — hawkinspeter

         The idea that individuals aren’t responsible for pollution is infantalising nonsense.

         If you are an adult then you are responsible for your actions and the consequences of those actions.

         Big business doesn’t pollute for the sake of it, they pollute to meet consumer demand.

         Remove the demand and you remove the pollution.

         Getting publicity by disrupting people going about their lives in an environmentally friendly way is entirely counterproductive.

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         • Rich_cb wrote:

           However, XR’s protest is not really aimed at getting individuals to become “greener”, it’s about how government is ignoring/delaying the issues. One of their aims is to get government to actually speak the truth about climate issues (e.g. what is our government doing about toxic air in cities?).

           Their aim is to cause disruption to get the government to act, so although disrupting the tube may be considered unfair in terms of penalising the commuters, it’s also an effective way to hit businesses and get more publicity.

           I think part of the issue with governments is that they are trying to “blame” consumers for the global climate issues whereas big business is far more to “blame” and yet their shenanigans are allowed to continue (e.g. fracking).

           — Rich_cb The idea that individuals aren’t responsible for pollution is infantalising nonsense. If you are an adult then you are responsible for your actions and the consequences of those actions. Big business doesn’t pollute for the sake of it, they pollute to meet consumer demand. Remove the demand and you remove the pollution. Getting publicity by disrupting people going about their lives in an environmentally friendly way is entirely counterproductive.— hawkinspeter

           Ultimately, yes individuals are responsible for what they do.

           However, in terms of impact and effecting change, it makes far more sense to be targetting the biggest polluters.

           I daresay the idea of disrupting the London Underground is to have a much larger effect on the financial businesses in London. Yes, the staff may be travelling in an environmentally favourable fashion, but the net effect of London companies seems to involve destroying habitats to benefit certain, already rich people (*cough* BP Deepwater Horizon *cough*).

           Personally, I’d rather they left public transport alone, but I can see why they would target it.

         • hawkinspeter wrote:

           However, XR’s protest is not really aimed at getting individuals to become “greener”, it’s about how government is ignoring/delaying the issues. One of their aims is to get government to actually speak the truth about climate issues (e.g. what is our government doing about toxic air in cities?).

           Their aim is to cause disruption to get the government to act, so although disrupting the tube may be considered unfair in terms of penalising the commuters, it’s also an effective way to hit businesses and get more publicity.

           I think part of the issue with governments is that they are trying to “blame” consumers for the global climate issues whereas big business is far more to “blame” and yet their shenanigans are allowed to continue (e.g. fracking).

           — hawkinspeter

           The idea that individuals aren’t responsible for pollution is infantalising nonsense. If you are an adult then you are responsible for your actions and the consequences of those actions. Big business doesn’t pollute for the sake of it, they pollute to meet consumer demand. Remove the demand and you remove the pollution. Getting publicity by disrupting people going about their lives in an environmentally friendly way is entirely counterproductive.

           — Rich_cb

           Ultimately, yes individuals are responsible for what they do.

           However, in terms of impact and effecting change, it makes far more sense to be targetting the biggest polluters.

           I daresay the idea of disrupting the London Underground is to have a much larger effect on the financial businesses in London. Yes, the staff may be travelling in an environmentally favourable fashion, but the net effect of London companies seems to involve destroying habitats to benefit certain, already rich people (*cough* BP Deepwater Horizon *cough*).

           Personally, I’d rather they left public transport alone, but I can see why they would target it.

           — hawkinspeter

           The biggest polluters are only there because of consumers…

         • Htc wrote:

           Ultimately, yes individuals are responsible for what they do.

           However, in terms of impact and effecting change, it makes far more sense to be targetting the biggest polluters.

           I daresay the idea of disrupting the London Underground is to have a much larger effect on the financial businesses in London. Yes, the staff may be travelling in an environmentally favourable fashion, but the net effect of London companies seems to involve destroying habitats to benefit certain, already rich people (*cough* BP Deepwater Horizon *cough*).

           Personally, I’d rather they left public transport alone, but I can see why they would target it.

           — Htc

           The biggest polluters are only there because of consumers…

           — hawkinspeter

           I’d prefer to point the finger at the major stock-holders and the big financial funds that choose how and where to put other people’s money.

           When big companies have a huge catastrophe that destroys habitats, invariably the companies aren’t penalised sufficiently to cover the damage done. I’m sure that has absolutely nothing to do with back-room deals done to ensure that political parties get their large donations.

           But yeah, consumers.

         • Rich_cb wrote:

           However, XR’s protest is not really aimed at getting individuals to become “greener”, it’s about how government is ignoring/delaying the issues. One of their aims is to get government to actually speak the truth about climate issues (e.g. what is our government doing about toxic air in cities?).

           Their aim is to cause disruption to get the government to act, so although disrupting the tube may be considered unfair in terms of penalising the commuters, it’s also an effective way to hit businesses and get more publicity.

           I think part of the issue with governments is that they are trying to “blame” consumers for the global climate issues whereas big business is far more to “blame” and yet their shenanigans are allowed to continue (e.g. fracking).

           — Rich_cb The idea that individuals aren’t responsible for pollution is infantalising nonsense. If you are an adult then you are responsible for your actions and the consequences of those actions. Big business doesn’t pollute for the sake of it, they pollute to meet consumer demand. Remove the demand and you remove the pollution. Getting publicity by disrupting people going about their lives in an environmentally friendly way is entirely counterproductive.— hawkinspeter

            

           Big business is motivated by profit.  Consumer demand is a fallacy as consumers don’t generate innovation, they consume it despite what producers would like us to believe.  I agree that every consumer has a responsibility but choice is a luxury afforded to a few, not the majority.  This may be through economic forces, access to information and so many day to day pressures.  This suits big business and allows them to continue to peddle innovations that increase profit.  The idea that life may be a little easier sells products.  

           Perhaps education is where XR should be focussing their resources?  Preventing people from commuting by tube, even if it is to the jobs they probably hate, is likely to be a big mistake.

            

   • srchar wrote:

     Of course not – while the average car journey within London is responsible for the release of 138g CO2/passenger/mile (excluding emissions during the car’s production), the average Tube journey results in the generation of just 48g CO2/passenger/mile, making the Tube one of the most carbon efficient forms of transport.

     Not quite as good as a bicycle at 25g CO2/mile, but nowhere near as bad as a car.

     — srchar

      

     I’m sure those figures are wrong.

     Footprint seems to include the diet of rider, but not that of a driver.  Heart rate correlates to energy expenditure, but I’m pretty sure my HR ridng is less than most of the tinnies RHR. 

     And I think the 138g is just wrong and doesn’t explain multi occupancy.  I mean a 2 tonne car with 1 occupant (typical) is just 6 times more CO2 than a cyclist? Just don’t believe that. All things considered it’s gotta be more like 50 – 100 times.  

     Then on the diet front, sporty folk usually eat healthier/greener too.  Obv another thing entirely, but still. Just awesome aren’t we!

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     • visionset wrote:

       I’m sure those figures are wrong.

       Footprint seems to include the diet of rider, but not that of a driver.  Heart rate correlates to energy expenditure, but I’m pretty sure my HR ridng is less than most of the tinnies RHR. 

       And I think the 138g is just wrong and doesn’t explain multi occupancy.  I mean a 2 tonne car with 1 occupant (typical) is just 6 times more CO2 than a cyclist? Just don’t believe that. All things considered it’s gotta be more like 50 – 100 times.  

       Then on the diet front, sporty folk usually eat healthier/greener too.  Obv another thing entirely, but still. Just awesome aren’t we!

       — visionset

       The figures for Tube and car journeys came from TfL, the figure for the bike came from the ECF.  I didn’t bother to cross-check them as they broadly proved my point, but I agree the car seems to be unrealistically efficient, but you can probably expect that, given that it will be an aggregate of the emissions tests that are widely gamed by car manufacturers.  Emissions generated by production of the vehicle and associated infrastructure aren’t included either.

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     • visionset wrote:

       Of course not – while the average car journey within London is responsible for the release of 138g CO2/passenger/mile (excluding emissions during the car’s production), the average Tube journey results in the generation of just 48g CO2/passenger/mile, making the Tube one of the most carbon efficient forms of transport.

       Not quite as good as a bicycle at 25g CO2/mile, but nowhere near as bad as a car.

       — visionset

        

       I’m sure those figures are wrong.

       Footprint seems to include the diet of rider, but not that of a driver.  Heart rate correlates to energy expenditure, but I’m pretty sure my HR ridng is less than most of the tinnies RHR. 

       And I think the 138g is just wrong and doesn’t explain multi occupancy.  I mean a 2 tonne car with 1 occupant (typical) is just 6 times more CO2 than a cyclist? Just don’t believe that. All things considered it’s gotta be more like 50 – 100 times.  

       Then on the diet front, sporty folk usually eat healthier/greener too.  Obv another thing entirely, but still. Just awesome aren’t we!

       — srchar

       Might be Co2.
       Heaving on the strokes of a cycle. Sitting plus share of machine emissions. Trees love that stuff.

       Didn’t read about carbon monoxide though. That’d be high with engine vehicles.

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2. Interestingly someone appears
   Interestingly someone appears to be named in the facebook comments for the police.

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3. It is about raising awareness

   It is about raising awareness and disrupting life as normal, since that is exactly what is and has been coming our way due to climate change.  Admittedly it is better to do this at an airport, but all capitalism disruption is good in my book. 

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   • visionset wrote:

     It is about raising awareness and disrupting life as normal, since that is exactly what is and has been coming our way due to climate change.  Admittedly it is better to do this at an airport, but all capitalism disruption is good in my book. 

     — visionset

     Yeah because what has capitalism ever done for us!

     The money trail for extinction rebellion is also starting to be followed now. It’s not leading to any great philanthropists. It’s still all about you buying stuff and possibly paying more tax for it because ‘green’ you know.

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4. ER have done themselves no

   ER have done themselves no favours this morning disrupting the tube. Normal people going about their working life, NOT using planes or cars is not the place to target. I was applauding them shutting down the roads and planes at city airport the other day, this however is just trolling for the sake of it. 

    

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5. Quote:

   He said other cyclists should be attentive if they became aware of motorists pulling alongside them at the same speed, urging them to “just stop if that happens.”

   So can we now expect a spate of motorists shadowing cyclists all across Staffordshire, travelling at the same speed, just to make them stop riding?

   Nope.  D-lock in an easily accessible location, I think (rather than jammed down a pannier or buckled away in a saddle bag).

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   • brooksby wrote:

     No content

     — brooksby

     Nope.  D-lock in an easily accessible location, I think (rather than jammed down a pannier or buckled away in a saddle bag).

     I understand why you would want to do this but you hurling a D-lock at someone will only result in YOU getting your collar felt by plod.

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     • dobbo996 wrote:

       Nope.  D-lock in an easily accessible location, I think (rather than jammed down a pannier or buckled away in a saddle bag).

       — dobbo996

       I understand why you would want to do this but you hurling a D-lock at someone will only result in YOU getting your collar felt by plod.

       — brooksby

       I know 

       Just makes me angry that some thug is doing this, and the response from the police is “Well watch out and if someone pulls alongside you, pull over, stop, and watch them laughing at you”…

       (Anyway, my d-lock was quite expensive so I woudn’t chuck it ).

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6. Those scum pushing riders off

   Those scum pushing riders off bikes should be forced to use the leaves of the Gympie Gympie tree as toilet paper…

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7. Nice Phil, you are of course

   Nice Phil, you are of course from the continent of natural horror.  And awful driving.

   Much less in nature to get you in mild, tepid blighty.  Drivers, hmmm.

   What does surprise me is that you managed to give up most of your guns, and well done for it, yours does seem to be an extremely macho culture, with a bit of racism thrown in there, much like the US.  Where some seem to consider shooting massacres a price worth paying, for FREEDOM.

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   • ktache wrote:

     Nice Phil, you are of course from the continent of natural horror.  And awful driving.

     Much less in nature to get you in mild, tepid blighty.  Drivers, hmmm.

     — ktache

     yes, I am. Awful driving is a national pastime, along with swearing and shortening all names to a single syllable and calling you mate then an effing c for riding a bike…

     Though they must’ve put something in the water because today I had nothing but courtesy and safe passes from drivers. Even had to wave a few past me! Now that  I think about it, I was riding the Tern GSD with full panniers and wearing a fluorescent work shirt, they probably thought I was a postman not a cyclist… maybe I’m on to something.

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8. Guys, EXTINCTION REBELLION IS
   Guys, EXTINCTION REBELLION IS AN UMBRELLA ORGANISATION (if you can call it an organisation) for a bunch of disparate environmental groups. Many of the people within it didnt approve or want the tube disruption to happen for the same reasons given above.

   It was what, 4 people out of 1000’s that did this?

   Unfortunately the damage has been done in the media and FB etc. Fuckwits.

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9. I find it bewildering that

   I find it bewildering that people are condemning XR while largely ignoring numerous thugs who violently assaulted an individual after making a peaceful protest.

   Some commuters were in such a rush to get to work that they had time for a fight when they should have been embarking?!

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   • ChrisB200SX wrote:

     I find it bewildering that people are condemning XR while largely ignoring numerous thugs who violently assaulted an individual after making a peaceful protest.

     Some commuters were in such a rush to get to work that they had time for a fight when they should have been embarking?!

     — ChrisB200SX

      

     Err doesn’t fella on the top of the tube try to kick the fella in the head and stamp on him?

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     • gazzaputt wrote:

       I find it bewildering that people are condemning XR while largely ignoring numerous thugs who violently assaulted an individual after making a peaceful protest.

       Some commuters were in such a rush to get to work that they had time for a fight when they should have been embarking?!

       — gazzaputt

        

       Err doesn’t fella on the top of the tube try to kick the fella in the head and stamp on him?

       — ChrisB200SX

       Yep..

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     • gazzaputt wrote:

       I find it bewildering that people are condemning XR while largely ignoring numerous thugs who violently assaulted an individual after making a peaceful protest.

       Some commuters were in such a rush to get to work that they had time for a fight when they should have been embarking?!

       — gazzaputt

        

       Err doesn’t fella on the top of the tube try to kick the fella in the head and stamp on him?

       — ChrisB200SX

       Nope. He tries to push away someone from an angry mob, already assaulting him with whatever they are throwing at him (do you remember milkshakes?), who is obviously trying to do him harm. I think if someone tried to grab your legs to drop you from quite a height you might defend yourself too, no?

       Had the grabbing attempt been made by a police officer the story would be entirely different. No-one has the right to attack him just because of where he is.

       I don’t go attacking cyclists/drivers because they are in my way and slowing down my journey… but maybe you do?

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10. Hi, been a silent observer

    Hi, been a silent observer for some time, but felt compelled to comment on a couple of points raised over the XR tube action (and no I don’t support it) here:

    1. Having be in contact with XR activists and a strong supporter of their overall goals, I can say most of them also didn’t agree with the action – over 70% where strongly against it and voted as such and are very disappointed it happened as it will move the converstation away from where it should be.

    2. Given the discussion yesterday over the 95% of cyclists running red lights I find it a bit odd that some on here are trying to paint the whole movement with the same brush, given the extreme action of a few.

    3. In that vain, I found it funny seeing this on road.cc today given it isn’t particularly related to cycling, while you have comment on XR in the past it has mainly be to do with how the action has affected cycling – but then have jumped on a sensationalising issue unrelated to cycling while ignoring some of the more important actions like XR activists trying to protect woodland in Surrey which is being demolished for HS2 despite the the uncertainty.

     

    Also on the consumerism thing, seem to think we are missing the role advertising plays in driving demand – companies spend vast amount on psychologically stimulating ads to make people want things they would otherwise have no desire for. If you are immune you are in the minority and the better for it, but alot of money is invested in research to drive consumption – just something to consider

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    • kt26 wrote:

      2. Given the discussion yesterday over the 95% of cyclists running red lights I find it a bit odd that some on here are trying to paint the whole movement with the same brush, given the extreme action of a few.

      — kt26

      Don’t disagree with the sentiment you express here, but the issue is that these disparate groups use the umbrella of XR to get their message heard, and it works. So one of those groups protesting in this kind of way that even the bulk of other XR groups don’t want will reflect badly on the whole umbrella as it has their name on it, and people are always likely to simply lump all of XR together when this sort of thing happens.

      Cyclists, on the other hand, appear to have the umbrella group of “Cyclists”, and how they should behave, imposed on them by others, and are much more concerned with simply being allowed to carry on with their daily lives without being hassled, abused or KSId as they do so. 

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      • Jetmans Dad wrote:

        2. Given the discussion yesterday over the 95% of cyclists running red lights I find it a bit odd that some on here are trying to paint the whole movement with the same brush, given the extreme action of a few.

        — Jetmans Dad

        Don’t disagree with the sentiment you express here, but the issue is that these disparate groups use the umbrella of XR to get their message heard, and it works. So one of those groups protesting in this kind of way that even the bulk of other XR groups don’t want will reflect badly on the whole umbrella as it has their name on it, and people are always likely to simply lump all of XR together when this sort of thing happens.

        Cyclists, on the other hand, appear to have the umbrella group of “Cyclists”, and how they should behave, imposed on them by others, and are much more concerned with simply being allowed to carry on with their daily lives without being hassled, abused or KSId as they do so. 

        — kt26

         

        Absolutely agree a lot of damage has been done, it was alway going to be this way and part of the problem with how XR is run, it allows anyone to use the name as long as the action is non-violent, a great way to help spread the message, but it has an ungly flipside – a couple to radical members can destroy the good work of the entire group with a bit of help from the media.

        I just see a lot of similarities with what is happening with cyclist, we are cleaner as a means of transport, healthier as a way of living but bad actions of a few is jumped on by the media because our existence is seen as a nuisance to the status quo and vested interests – and then you get things like channel 5’s hate propaganda or yesterday radio rubbish, inciting hate in the masses leading to unhinged individuals thinking it is funny to push people off of bicycles.

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    • kt26 wrote:

      Hi, been a silent observer for some time, but felt compelled to comment on a couple of points raised over the XR tube action (and no I don’t support it) here:

      1. Having be in contact with XR activists and a strong supporter of their overall goals, I can say most of them also didn’t agree with the action – over 70% where strongly against it and voted as such and are very disappointed it happened as it will move the converstation away from where it should be.

      2. Given the discussion yesterday over the 95% of cyclists running red lights I find it a bit odd that some on here are trying to paint the whole movement with the same brush, given the extreme action of a few.

      3. In that vain, I found it funny seeing this on road.cc today given it isn’t particularly related to cycling, while you have comment on XR in the past it has mainly be to do with how the action has affected cycling – but then have jumped on a sensationalising issue unrelated to cycling while ignoring some of the more important actions like XR activists trying to protect woodland in Surrey which is being demolished for HS2 despite the the uncertainty.

       

      Also on the consumerism thing, seem to think we are missing the role advertising plays in driving demand – companies spend vast amount on psychologically stimulating ads to make people want things they would otherwise have no desire for. If you are immune you are in the minority and the better for it, but alot of money is invested in research to drive consumption – just something to consider

      — kt26

      well said, the bicycle industry is massive in terms of pushing needless consumerism, we are a point now were the onset of disc braked bikes has meant an absolute plethora of rim braked bikes/wheels on the market.

      The number of bikes that only need a short amount of fettling that go to the dump is frightening, I’ve fished loads including paying for some from the tip so that they could be put back into service. Whilst the problems are worse for other modes of transport, the lure of more shiny things including clothing which means masses of gear being disposed to landfill and premature replacement before parts are fully worn is and always has been a problem in the industry but is rarely if ever spoken about. 

      Metals such as dead chains, worn/broken cables (including the metal inside outer cables) and so on that are binned for landfill instead of put in the proper scrap bin at the tip. I even cut open old brake blocks that have a metal centre and the bits of rubber all go into the rubber/tyre container I reckon I must have saved about 200 bikes from being scrapped over three decades but there must be tens if not hundreds of thousands of bikes rotting/being skipped and new replacements, many of them cheap tat that will end up doing same (few rides than sat in shed for years before being skipped)

      We also have the problem of carbon fibre that seemingly nobody has a clue how to recycle/dispose of properly.

      We can do so much more IMO, stopping the production and sale of cheap and nasty bikes that don’t last 5 minutes would be a start but making sure we dispose of waste cycle components correctly to be recycled is another that everyone can do.

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11. Why is ER even being covered

    Why is ER even being covered by Road.cc  at this point? 

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12. I could care less about the

    I could care less about the individuals on top of those trains. They willingly made the decision to risk to their safety when they decided to jump on top of a train at rush hour. They could have tripped, slipped and fallen off or someone could have thrown something worse than a cup of ice at them. I certainly wouldn’t wish a beating on anyone but it was either a ‘highly stupid plan’ or simply ‘a distinct naivety’ from those protesters to do what they did, where they did it.  I mean why pick on an underground station to start with and why that station of all stations, surely canary wharf if they wanted to upset the capitalists.. 

    And while I agree that a couple of bad apples in a cart shouldn’t spoil it for everyone.. and sympathise to those like @kt26, however those protesters protested in the name of ER, with a ER banner and their own ER cameraman and everything, ergo, why would anyone NOT consider them to be representing ER? and how difficult will it be for people outside of the movement, NOT to consider that the movement as a whole did endorse the action this morning?

     

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    • peted76 wrote:

      I could care less about the individuals on top of those trains. They willingly made the decision to risk to their safety when they decided to jump on top of a train at rush hour. They could have tripped, slipped and fallen off or someone could have thrown something worse than a cup of ice at them. I certainly wouldn’t wish a beating on anyone but it was either a ‘highly stupid plan’ or simply ‘a distinct naivety’ from those protesters to do what they did, where they did it.  I mean why pick on an underground station to start with and why that station of all stations, surely canary wharf if they wanted to upset the capitalists.. 

      And while I agree that a couple of bad apples in a cart shouldn’t spoil it for everyone.. and sympathise to those like @kt26, however those protesters protested in the name of ER, with a ER banner and their own ER cameraman and everything, ergo, why would anyone NOT consider them to be representing ER? and how difficult will it be for people outside of the movement, NOT to consider that the movement as a whole did endorse the action this morning?

       

      — peted76

      I’m not sure I follow, are you saying just because people look like they represent a group it is ok to judge the whole group?

      And please don’t misunderstand I’m not here to have a go at anyone just offer the opinion of someone who is a cyclist and is deeply horrified at some of the bile spouted about “us” as a collective – and you see the result people being pushed of their bikes for being “cyclists”.

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      • kt26 wrote:

        — kt26 I’m not sure I follow, are you saying just because people look like they represent a group it is ok to judge the whole group? And please don’t misunderstand I’m not here to have a go at anyone just offer the opinion of someone who is a cyclist and is deeply horrified at some of the bile spouted about “us” as a collective – and you see the result people being pushed of their bikes for being “cyclists”.— peted76

        What I meant was that it’ll be very difficult for ER as a movement to distance themselves from those particular protesters yesterday in the public eyes.

        No one should be stereotyped, but saying that, doesn’t stop people from being stereotyped. 

        The bad publicity those ER protesters gathered yesterday took the movement back a couple of steps.

        You can’t reasonably think that Mrs.Anne.Other from down the road with 2 kids is going to look at that tube incident on the news and think ‘oh that’s silly, however there’s always a few bad apples, I’m sure the other 998 protesters aren’t happy the way that ones gone. 

        Whether it’s right or not, Mrs.Anne.Other will exactly judge the ‘whole movement’ based on the overall media coverage and she’ll lean towards the ‘latest’ media.  Whether that’s okay to you or not.

        I’d be happier if the peaceful sensible ER people just turned around and said ‘We’d like to apologise to the commuters on the tube yesterday, you know how things go protesting, people get a little excited and there’s a thousand ideas flying around, we didn’t endorse that, we’re dealing with those protestors directly and hope to be back to our normal more thought out protests at some point soon. 

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        • peted76 wrote:

          — peted76

          I’m not sure I follow, are you saying just because people look like they represent a group it is ok to judge the whole group? And please don’t misunderstand I’m not here to have a go at anyone just offer the opinion of someone who is a cyclist and is deeply horrified at some of the bile spouted about “us” as a collective – and you see the result people being pushed of their bikes for being “cyclists”.

          — kt26

          What I meant was that it’ll be very difficult for ER as a movement to distance themselves from those particular protesters yesterday in the public eyes.

          No one should be stereotyped, but saying that, doesn’t stop people from being stereotyped. 

          The bad publicity those ER protesters gathered yesterday took the movement back a couple of steps.

          You can’t reasonably think that Mrs.Anne.Other from down the road with 2 kids is going to look at that tube incident on the news and think ‘oh that’s silly, however there’s always a few bad apples, I’m sure the other 998 protesters aren’t happy the way that ones gone. 

          Whether it’s right or not, Mrs.Anne.Other will exactly judge the ‘whole movement’ based on the overall media coverage and she’ll lean towards the ‘latest’ media.  Whether that’s okay to you or not.

          I’d be happier if the peaceful sensible ER people just turned around and said ‘We’d like to apologise to the commuters on the tube yesterday, you know how things go protesting, people get a little excited and there’s a thousand ideas flying around, we didn’t endorse that, we’re dealing with those protestors directly and hope to be back to our normal more thought out protests at some point soon. 

          — peted76

          Ah, maybe I wasn’t clear enough, I fully get this is what will happen. I expect this to happen, I expected this to happen where I heard there were people thinking of doing such action. And I’m not saying its necessarily unreasonable if it is present the way it was. I was just drawing the comparison as some went straight for the – XR shows their true colours routine – which is a slippery slope given how the same is applied to cyclist.

          This is compounded by the half reporting of the story, XR did come out and apologise for the what happened, but instead of new stories, the old stories were updated. Co-founder Rupert Read came out calling the action “catastropically stupid” in light of the challenge to the Section 14 challenge also apologising to commuters and commenting on the fact that it was no-violent – also missing for context when the protester kicked-out at the commuter trying to pull him off the train is that commuters had already starting using violence against the “camerman”. So I guess I just want to offer some additional context to the story which is very open to misrepresenting the facts at hand.

          For example not reported here yesterday was the cycling angle, in that a mass bike ride took part that was organised by XR.

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13. peted76 [1582 posts] 1 hour
    peted76 [1582 posts] 1 hour ago0 likes
    I could care less about the individuals on top of those trains.

    Does this mean you do care about them or you don’t?

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14. I’d like to be the 1st here
    I’d like to be the 1st here to wish Edo Maas a full and speedy recovery. What a terrible tragedy for him, his family and friends and team to endure. Lets hope the initial diagnosis is unduly pessimistic and he can recover. That really would be a come back worth celebrating.

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