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forum
Upgrading my group set?
Hi I have had a Cube peloton 2014 bike with Shimano sora group set I am thinking about upgrading the group set on my bike just looking for some advice on if it is worth changing it? I have seen a few ultregra 6800 11 speed on sale?
This is the bike I bought: http://www.formbycycles.co.uk/cube-peloton-road-bike-3669.html
Thanks.
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27 comments
I have Dura-Ace 11spd Di2 and even with that the chain comes off the chainring on occasion (albeit usually when going uphill under load and attempting to change both FD and RD at the same time!)
However, from a feeling perspective, I find the quality of the 105 stuff to be absolutely perfect - strong enough to not feel like I am going to break the shifters when shifting, which I do feel with the lower-end versions.
But as everyone else said - wheels first.
When I rebuilt my bike I had some 10 speed 105 (shifters and derailleurs) mixed with tiagra (brakes and cranks)
got the opportunity to get some ultegra 6700 brakes very cheap, straight away noticed the difference in brake feel (modulation) and stopping power in wet weather - no doubt due to the superior brake pads (an easy upgrade to Sora or Tiagra brakes) but also the brake caliper itself.
then I got a soiled 6700 Ultegra crankset cheap, and the difference was also noticeable
The difference between the tiagra (which uses same forging as 105) and Ultegra with its "hollowform" spider and chainring design was immediately noticeable: in terms of shifting up to the big ring under power and sprinting standing up on the big ring.
I put my Tiagra back on the same bike to experiment (using the same BB) and a feeling of 'softness' returned when shifting or standing.
Its one of those thing you will only realise when you try "better" kit, and if you have not tried better kit, you would not feel any deficiency in the Tiagra as its good quality kit for little money.
you would also have to try the better kit on exactly the same bike (testing a different bike with better kit would mask the exact differences).
Although I try hard not to get sucked into the trap of diminishing returns, I must agree you are right. If you are prepared to pay for the privilege things can always be made better.
I know a perfectly fit and healthy man who has invested in the luxury of an electric garage door. He was delighted and took great pride in showing it to all his mates and it made him ever-so-slightly happier. But, after a while he thought it operated too slowly and called back the engineer. The professional explained patiently that it operated at the optimum speed that would allow the door to unlock, move through its arc and then stop quietly, all without causing damage to the components.
This didn't satisfy my friend who called in another electrician and told him to make it unlock slowly, move rapidly through its travel and then slow down before stopping. And lo, it was done, at the cost of several new components, a day's disruption and a rather large cheque. And he has gained the satisfaction of possessing the most expensive garage door in Christendom that now opens and closes about three seconds quicker than before.
Me, I open mine by hand. I'm a Tiagra kind of bloke.
In my opinion, the worst thing about Tiagra is the ugly chainset. Swapping this with a Shimano 565 would be the first thing I'd upgrade, purely for cosmetic reasons. I'm such a show pony!
I am going to stick my neck out here as the comparisons are for mid to high end group sets. Sora to tiagra is a vast improvement as you can't change from big to granny ring under force with sora whereas tiagra you can. Upwards of tiagra, it's diminishing returns.
Personally, I would be happy with any groupaet from tiagra upwards
I wouldn't bother changing the groupset until you need to replace all or some major part of it. Sora changes the gears so does Ultegra.
The biggest bang for your buck is wheels. Talk to Derek McLay at Wheelsmith.
http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/
I've had experience of 105 (5700), current SRAM Apex, Ultegra 6600, 6700 (Di2 and conventional) and Tiagra 4600 on my various bikes in the last few years.
I'd have to say that shifting _performance_ on all cable operated versions has been hard to differentiate, the Di2 shifting is lovely, but that's to be expected. The cable versions, when properly maintained, moved the chain quickly and efficiently. I did find that my 6600 Ultegra struggled to shift at the front but that was likely due to the poor condition it was in by the end of it's life
In terms of 'feel' (and I think anyone would agree that is a very subjective thing to measure) my preference has been 105 5700 with Apex the least pleasing to use. Personally I prefer a smooth feel (sorry I can't be more descriptive) whereas Apex was quite clicky but some people would likely prefer it as it has a positive action.
Getting back on topic, in terms of bang-for-buck upgrade, I think there's very little value in upgrading the groupset, unless it's so badly worn that it's not usable.
If your groupset is looked after it should shift as well as most other groupsets, the main difference is just weight. Like others have said it, upgrade your wheels and you might actually be able to feel the difference.
Having moved recently from Tiagra to Ultegra 6800 i'd have to disagree - the difference in shifting is massive - but I think you're right about the wheels making more of a difference.
So true, the statement 'they shift as well' usually comes from people who've not rode something at the higher end of the scale.
Disagree completely. Sure Tiagra shifters feel plasticy and have a longer throw, but set up correctly the actual shifting performance between my Tiagra Felt and my Ultegra TCR is near enough indentical. They both work very, very well.
I said high end, not Shimano
Oops. Double post!
Record and SR shift no better than Chorus. Chorus is only marginally better than Veloce, Athena and Centaur.
The point is that ALL groupsets perform brilliantly if set up correctly. I race on Tiagra on my crit machine (apart from the brakes which are Ultegra) and the shifting is certainly not the difference between winning and losing. My legs and lungs take care of that.
In summary. I wouldn't 'upgrade' the OPs bike with a groupset other than the brakes. Wheels would certainly be priority. Then if I still wanted more I'd buy a whole new bike and put Chorus on it.
All true, Campag stuff gets lighter at the top end, but essentially they all shift much the same.
shimano stuff shifts much the same and doesn't get noticeably lighter up the range!
Do the wheels first mate.
Having been riding, buying and working on race bikes since 1973 I have to say that a lot of the perceived difference is pretty minor and at times so minor as to be difficult to detect. Mechanically there's not much difference. What's the point of Shimano or anyone else making a bad product that no-one buys. What they want to do is sell very similar products to different market segments. The very top end of anything is going to be brilliant but for most people riding bikes you can take your pick of what you thinks look good on your bike or suits your budget and it will all work just fine.
I have a friend who's very prone to telling anyone that will listen why exactly it is that the lates bit of kit he bought is absolutely the dog's bollocks and so much better than anything else on the market.
He's suffering from a well known condition Buyers Stockholm Syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization
I didn't say that Tiagra wasn't good, I said the difference I noticed on both setups was massive - which is perhaps a slight overstatement, let me clarify a tad...
The difference was very noticeable, even when both were new and dailed in. The difference to the lever action was pretty massive on the front and much crisper on the rear. Of course taking the rear mech and manually moving across the cassettes on both shows very good and precise movement - the combination of front and rear mechs running through the relevant shifters simply gave much better feeling shifting with much lighter and shallower action on the Ultegra than the Tiagra. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit in with your experience.
I'm not your friend, nor suffering from some form of rationalization issue. I'm not prone to going on about any particular bit of tat i've got either and started riding bikes not that long before you. I got the groupset for a cracking price and wasn't expecting any particular type of behaviour - that it performed well pleases me and was relevant to the discussion as I had comparison with both group sets from new.. beyond that I don't give a rats arse about it.
To be honest, it doesn't particularly matter to me if folk say the two are the same, and that I can't notice the difference - they're not and I did. It's not the end of the world, it's not a big difference in terms of the overall performance of the bike and I still agree the wheels would probably be a better place to spend the cash. On some of that we can agree to disagree but please - less of the cheap shots and psychology.
[quote) Having moved recently from Tiagra to Ultegra 6800 i'd have to disagree - the difference in shifting is massive - but I think you're right about the wheels making more of a difference.[/quote]
Let's think about this perceived "massive" difference for a minute. Massive means relatively large or considerable, so we are not talking minor variations here.
Ultegra is, by general consent, very good stuff. But not necessarily the best, perhaps in the world's top five groupsets.
So if Tiagra is a huge step short of the top five, it must be a long way down the list. Perhaps it doesn't shift well or reliably? Maybe it doesn't last a long time? Could it be ugly in most people's eyes? Does it cost more than Ultegra?
Well, actually none of those things are true. It shifts very well, gives long service, is averagely pretty and costs peanuts.
So what the OP meant to say is that there are minor differences between the two groupsets.
Now, given the very significant price difference, there's a surprise!
No I didn't mean that at all, there are considerable differences in some parts of the groupset (I didn't even mention the brakes, they're a really big improvement) - please read my clarification just above your post - but as I said, 'massive' was probably over-stating things in general. Going back now and looking at some reviews in the press, it would seem that my view of the groups performance not without some justification however.
Personaly I got the set, brand new, for little more than a new Tiagra set would have cost, even with discount from the usual suspects - so i'm a happy bunny (but obviously an edge case). At twice the price, which seems about par for the course, i'm fairly sure i'd not have justified the expense.
Save up and get a better bike because if you want to change the groupset your looking at £500+ but first you will need new wheels like others have stated and a decent set of wheels such as Fulcrum 3 are around the £300 mark.
So unless your really really happy with the frame and plan on keeping it a long time then its a lot of money to dish out.
For instance you can get a new 2015 Focus Cayo 6 for about £1300, carbon frame, Fulcrum wheels and Ultegra groupset. There are loads more similar bikes out there as well so take your time before you pay out for anything mate.
If the bottom bracket on the Sora stuff is still square taper (I had a 2300 specced bike with a 300g + bottom bracket), you might save a significant amount of weight upgrading that to Tiagra or something, which would be very cheap. But yes, as they say, do the wheels first.
Check that your current wheels would take 10 or 11s hub, if not you'd likely be better off selling that bike complete and buying new.
The cost of a new goupset and 10/11s wheels would be getting on for £500 which goes a long way at this time of year, more so if you get some cash for the current steed.
(I did quickly google the CUBE RA 0.7 Aero wheels that came with that bike but couldn't determine if they would run 10/11 or not, many 9s wheels have a removable spacer allowing use of 10 or 11speed.)
Ultegra 6800 is £525 at Merlin, add the cost of having it fitted. You'll not go any faster, either on hills or anywhere else. Don't believe the hype.
Only for 11 speed do you need the new, wider freehub.
8/9/10 speed Shimano/SRAM hubs are all the same width. 10sp cassette is fractionally narrower than 8 and 9sp so requires a thin spacer.
wheels/tires and brake blocks (the blocks on Sora are terrible).
Wheels First. Change groupset once its worn out. if the shifting is still good and it runs smooth keep it.
Well, a changeover like that would lose about 500g probably, but you wouldn't notice unless you'd changed the wheels first. So, what he said.
To be honest, no.
Wheels, saddle and pedals before I would swap the Gruppo.
Or wait till it wears out or breaks.