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Have you wasted money on super light new wheels?

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  • April 29, 2013 at 5:49 pm #18632
    spongebob

    Ok, so I’m currently researching a new set of wheels, I was primarily looking at the weight of the wheels but during my research I came across a number of articles that would imply that 250g’s off a set of wheels would make a minimal difference.

    Here is an article backed with scientific research: http://www.biketechreview.com/index.php/reviews/wheels/63-wheel-performance it shows that reducing a wheelsets weight by 50% has a sub .5% difference in performance. The main gains that can be made by a wheel are in it’s aerodynamic ability.

    So I thought well, I will need a 40mm+ set of wheels to reap the aerodynamic benefits, then I stumbled on the following research: http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/ComponentAerodynamics.aspx this data would suggest that the Campagnolo Zondas are a more aerodynamically sound choice than a Mavic Carbone SLR!

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  • May 9, 2013 at 1:31 pm #730919
    spongebob

    700c wrote:PS to the O.P,

    700c wrote:
    PS to the O.P, some dealers offer a try before you buy scheme on certain wheels (Reynolds is one of these manufacturers) so just try them out and if you don’t notice a difference in the real world then don’t buy!

    All the rest is just B.S. pseudo-science and speculation, frankly!

    As I said before I had Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL’s (£800 wheelset) I’m now riding a £40 unbranded crappy wheelset. I can’t notice a difference.

    May 9, 2013 at 12:31 pm #730917
    700c

    PS to the O.P, some dealers
    PS to the O.P, some dealers offer a try before you buy scheme on certain wheels (Reynolds is one of these manufacturers) so just try them out and if you don’t notice a difference in the real world then don’t buy!

    All the rest is just B.S. pseudo-science and speculation, frankly!

    May 9, 2013 at 12:27 pm #730915
    Leviathan

    700c is right, sorry BBB but
    700c is right, sorry BBB but after 25 years you might not notice any effect due to all the other changes, but plenty of others do. Whether it is gyroscopic or psychological it is a real effect. And if you move from point A to point B, or even Point A to Point A faster than you did or could before then the purchase was worth it no matter how it was achieved.

    May 9, 2013 at 12:26 pm #730913
    700c

    Well yes, there’s no point
    Well yes, there’s no point spending money on product development then not telling anybody about it! Successful manufacturing companies like these need both an effective R&D function and an effective marketing department.

    May 9, 2013 at 12:12 pm #730911
    spongebob

    *£millions spent on marketing
    *£millions spent on marketing

    May 9, 2013 at 11:35 am #730909
    700c

    @BBB, your experience may be
    @BBB, your experience may be the exception rather than the rule..

    But if you are correct, then thousands of us are being conned and the likes of Zipp, Reynolds, HED, fulcrum, Mavic etc should just give up and throw away the results of £millions spent on R&D! đŸ˜‰

    May 9, 2013 at 10:04 am #730907
    BBB

    700c wrote:…Everyone that I

    700c wrote:
    …Everyone that I know of who has upgraded their wheels experience an improvement in performance to a greater or lesser extent…

    Perceived benefits and the “feel” has very little to do with actual performance. The best example are tyre pressure and perceived rolling resistance. Pump up a 23mm tyre to 120PSI and it will always “feel” faster than a 28mm one at 30-40PSI less even though you’re likely to be faster or at least as fast on a wider one.

    700c wrote:
    … Even changing to my summer tyres this year have given me a noticeable boost in speed…

    I totally agree on this one. Performance of various tyres can be pretty accurately measured with a drum, pendulum or a simple rolling test and the difference between slow and fast ones can be as much as 20-30W.
    IMO it’s the only bike component that it’s worth obsessing about.
    700c wrote:
    … You just have to try it out for yourself in the real world! You’d be surprised at how much difference weight and aerodynamics can make to the effort required to power on the flat or sprint up a hill…

    I ride in the real world and over 25years of cycling I’ve never noticed the measurable performance benefits of lighter wheels. They may feel different but that’s all.
    The only things that made a positive difference to my average speeds were: picking the right tyres, losing 3 stones, commuting/training regularly all year round and clocking long endurance miles in winter.

    Anything else had very little relevance.

    May 9, 2013 at 5:14 am #730905
    spongebob

    I’ve just changed from cosmic
    I’ve just changed from cosmic carbone sl’s to borrowing a pair of cheap old hoops from a mate with no real noticeable difference, the only difference is when there is a cross tail wind I can’t use the rims like a sail to power on.

    Re quality of hubs, good aero and weight rims will be made by zipp, hed, sram etc all expensive with good build quality

    May 8, 2013 at 10:13 pm #730903
    RichTheRoadie

    There’s been too little
    There’s been too little mention of the importance of the hubs and the overall wheel build in this thread…

    There’s ZERO point getting the most aero or lightest rims you can buy if you’re going to run them on worthless hubs, or built into wheels that aren’t up to the job.

    Too much focus on weight and aero, not a single mention of quality…

    May 8, 2013 at 9:37 pm #730901
    700c

    I’m no mathematician or
    I’m no mathematician or physicist so cannot comment on the various % gains or losses quoted here but…

    Everyone that I know of who has upgraded their wheels experience an improvement in performance to a greater or lesser extent. As to whether our not it’s worth it, that will depend on your point of view.

    Even changing to my summer tyres this year have given me a noticeable boost in speed

    You just have to try it out for yourself in the real world! You’d be surprised at how much difference weight and aerodynamics can make to the effort required to power on the flat or sprint up a hill.

    May 4, 2013 at 3:33 pm #730899
    BBB

    robdaykin wrote:
    …Effort

    robdaykin wrote:

    …Effort measured by heart rate, since I don’t own a power meter…

    Frankly speaking I should have stopped reading it at this point but I carried on…

    robdaykin wrote:

    Handbuilt wheel ~ 2100g (measured, no tape, tube, tyre, skewer, cassette, however scales accurate to maybe +/- 50g) 5.5% slower +/- 0.5%

    Mavic Ksyrium Elite 1550g list weight 8% faster +/- 0.5%.

    I appreciate your efforts and respect your opinions but sorry I’m absolutely not buying it at all.
    I’m a bit of a tyre tart and there was a time I was testing various tyres on my bike (w/ Powertap) on a 3h loop, from 25mm 250g GP4000S to 37mm 600g Contact Sports and even despite differences in rolling resistance I don’t recall differences exceeding 0.5-0.7mp in extreme cases.

    Few other thoughts.

    Rims vary in width/shape/volume and tyre pressure should account for that. A 1mm difference may not seem like an awful lot but it may change the volume of the tyres by 5-10% and affect rolling resistance and the feel.
    You know… people claiming that wheels A are more comfortable or roll smoother than wheels B đŸ˜‰

    Also of e.g. 500g difference between wheels most of weight saving will be in the hubs. Most of rims will be in a region of 370-450g. There is not much potential for weight saving here. What it means is that you’re only saving about 100-200g of rotating mass furthermost from the centre (at best!).
    To suggest it’s going to result in noticeable difference in av. speed is madness.

    Besides, what most of people debate mostly about is not how much difference lighter wheels make but how does it does it compare to a static weight.

    The difference is going to be **** all.

    May 4, 2013 at 3:01 pm #730897
    Anonymous

    I think you’ll see I pointed
    I think you’ll see I pointed out that the figures are not statistically significant. i.e. useless.

    What I have found, like the article you link to (which is interesting) is that there is no evidence to disprove the hypothesis I stated.

    May 4, 2013 at 1:49 pm #730895
    spongebob

    Cheers robdaykin but that
    Cheers robdaykin but that data is totally useless, here is a link to a test on a climb (where weight would matter most) using a powermeter: http://www.training4cyclists.com/how-much-time-does-extra-weight-cost-on-alpe-dhuez/ your seriously suggesting 500g’s will effect speed by 8%?

    May 4, 2013 at 10:18 am #730893
    Simon E

    This reminds me of the
    This reminds me of the article about the doc who commuted on his old steel tourer with mudguards and a lightweight carbon bike. He found little difference between them.

    http://road.cc/content/news/28400-doctor-claims-carbon-offers-no-benefit-over-steel

    Also discussed in the CTC’s magazine last year (PDF)

    May 4, 2013 at 10:15 am #730891
    Anonymous

    As for the aero wheel
    As for the aero wheel analysis, it’s going to need some time to give objective data in a discussion suitable form as I need to quantify the climbing to support the hypotheses.
    Broadly though Aeolus 5.0 D3s weigh the same as the Elites, and on my best bike I am 2-3 mph faster on the flat, across and with the wind and 5mph faster into the wind at 160 bpm. Data based on the first test ride I did. As for climbing, I set a Strava KOM first time up the road from Cayton Bay using the Bontys, which is a climb I normally struggle to hold any speed on as it has a kick up partway through.

    At this point however, gIven it’s sunny out, I’m going to go get some more data points…

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