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Rapha not happy with Torm

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  • January 25, 2011 at 9:48 am #13040
    11speedaddict

    Has anyone else been in touch with Torm clothing ? i noticed their website showing”o ut of stock” on all items so i did some snooping. I believe Rapha are squeezing them legally so to speak.
    i think this is disgraceful. However you look at it Torm is less than half the price for very similiar quality jerseys. I know some rapha fans dont agree with Torm but thats only because feel foolish spending so much more on identical jerseys. I have owned both brands and i wouldnt buy rapha again over torm BUT now I certainly will not buy rapha if this is how they act to competitors.
    are they trademarking the stripe across the arm / front.
    Its effectively bullying and more importantly its stopping people like me buying reasonably priced jerseys. What are Rapha saying ” you pay our prices or take a hike” outrageous.
    I wouldnt mind but by nature Rapha is retro through and through. their designs hark back to previous decades designs.
    Anyone else feel the same way ? any Torm owners out there feel Rapha are dictating prices here ?

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Viewing 15 replies - 46 through 60 (of 121 total)
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  • February 3, 2011 at 10:45 am #640217
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    Denzil Dexter

    Research & Development? I
    Research & Development? I think I’d want a definition of what Assos consider R&D if they don’t actually make the stuff.

    February 3, 2011 at 10:41 am #640215
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    Denzil Dexter

    I think the accusation here
    I think the accusation here is not that Torm are a cynical import but that they are a cynical rip-off in the same ways as those plucky guys on street corners trying to sell you a copy of the latest blockbuster the day it opens at the multiplex.

    I own no Rapha, Torm or Assos and as my avatar shows am very definitely from cycling’s bearded wing so this is all very interesting I must say.

    February 3, 2011 at 10:32 am #640213
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    11speedaddict

    Cytech originated and
    Cytech originated and patented the “Elastic Interface Technology” cycling shorts platform in co-operation with the Swiss cycling clothing manufacturer Assos.
    = joint venture=
    assos say they do all the R&D for their textiles.

    February 3, 2011 at 10:26 am #640211
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    11speedaddict

    To fixie girl
    Torm arent a
    To fixie girl
    Torm arent a “some cynical import of far eastern goods ” any more than Rapha. they sre both manufactured in the far east.
    If Torm were wanting to make lots of “dollars” off the Rapha brand they would probably cost a little more.
    they are just trying to make stylish jerseys affordable and not exclusive.
    AND if you ever want insight into why most of the world view america with disdain the quote “If it happened here in the US we’d back our boys… ” sums it up. we are not blindly patriotic. and people view the US as litigation central “sue their ass”. and unfortunately the UK mimic the USA these days which is very sad.The 51st state.
    Ironically the usa economy is effectively owned by the chinese now…..who produce Torm & Rapha…funny that.

    February 3, 2011 at 10:22 am #640209
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    step-hent

    to 11speedaddict – whilst
    to 11speedaddict – whilst Assos may market themselves as a textile company, i’d be interested to know if they actually develop the textiles themselves. I was under the impression that Cytech invented the elastic pad – Assos are listed as one of the many brands that use their pads, along with Rapha and others. I dont doubt that Assos invest in their products – designers are still required for clothes whether they are ‘classically styled’ or not, and I’m sure the Assos designers focus on the technical aspects of the clothing and then Assos testers try it all out.

    However, dont Rapha do the same? I’d bet that both companies spend a lot on branding (probably more than anything else) – just because Assos dont focus on aesthetics doesnt mean they dont focus on their ‘premium’ brand.

    I have both Assos and Rapha gear (including various shorts from both) and actually find the Rapha gear more likely to get me through a 120mile ride in comfort than the Assos. There’s no denying that the Assos kit is good, but so is the Rapha kit, and (imo) the Rapha kit also looks much nicer.

    February 3, 2011 at 10:14 am #640207
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    Tony Farrelly

    Hmm… Assos, not the greatest
    Hmm… Assos, not the greatest reputation for customer service up until fairly recently, can’t think what happened to cause them to up their game?

    Assos have traded on their top end roadie image for quite considerably longer than Rapha – wearing their kit has been a badge of belonging for the well heeled roadie and the ‘proper’ road cyclist wannabe for years. I see no real difference on that score between them and Rapha and good luck to them both – I’m quite happy to see more rich blokes on bikes.

    Most Lycra shorts should last if you look after them. Assos make their kit in china, don’t think they ship in any fabric from Switzerland specially either they also make great play of the quality of their pads – you’ll find exactly the same quality pad from the same pad manufacturer in a pair of dhb shorts for considerably less money and indeed you will get a good level of workmanship and detail too, oh and dhb/Wiggle are pretty hot on customer service too.

    One final thing to ponder, if Torm were producing garments that looked very like Assos kit, with similar marketing etc etc, wonder if Assos would call in the lawyers? I think they would.

    February 3, 2011 at 9:23 am #640205
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    Fixie Girl

    Like Tony I am no Rapha-like
    Like Tony I am no Rapha-like but I do feel that they are the victim in all this..

    If it happened here in the US we’d back our boys above some cynical import of far eastern goods designed to feed off the back of Rapha’s marketing dollars!

    I may or may not work for the company that Ramott mentions and I know we’d do exactly the same as Rapha if someone copied our brand identity…

    FG

    February 3, 2011 at 9:14 am #640203
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    11speedaddict

    the thing with ASSOS is they
    the thing with ASSOS is they sell themselves as a textile company. constantly innovating. it clearly aint about the look !
    people can slag off the pricing of assos but will spend £3k on a holiday or £18k on a car or £5k on a plastic bike……and wear uncomfortable shorts and just think saddle sores are part and parcel of riding a bike.
    And then there are people who pay lots of money for Assos shorts and ride in comfort all day. I wouldnt buy any other brand now. riding long distances can be tough enough without hindering yourself with crap shorts.
    Assos have done more than any other cycling clothing company to advance our comfort on the bike. They innovate while others follow inc Rapha (elastic pad in their shorts).
    What have Rapha invented ? the little bag to keep your inner tube in ? the softshell – NO . Endura for one had softshells out before . they have invented (or-reinvented) a look / an image – which won’t get you through a 120 mile hard sunday ride.
    Assos may be expensive but in the last year i have sold my 8 year old shorts and 7 year old bib knickers on ebay for 3/4 of the price i paid for them (sold for £90 & £94). they were wearing out and i wanted to replace them. not a stich had failed and chamois was totally intact.
    Assos lasts if you look after them and retain their value
    I would expect my new assos shorts to last at least 6 to 8 years. break it down and they are genuine value for money.PLUS if you crash and rip them send them back and assos repair them for free (usually)

    February 3, 2011 at 3:40 am #640201
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    KirinChris

    But you’d have to be both
    But you’d have to be both blind and insane to copy Assos’ look. :&

    I think you’ve answered your own question. Other companies don’t push the whole image thing quite so thickly.

    There are plenty of people in the market for well-made high-quality stuff. I don’t actually think I am being ripped off by Rapha. Their soft-shell is better than anything else I’ve seen or worn.

    But I have bought less Rapha than I would have because of the whole image thing.

    There’s a feeling that it appeals to the ‘All The Gear, No Idea’ type of cyclist – the type whose first bike is a custom-made Serotta which they’ll be pushing up the hills when they do their annual sportive before throwing it all in the back of a Range Rover.

    I think people feel that Rapha has deliberately and cynically exploited that market, and now that someone else is trying to get a cut of their nice little racket they are sending round the heavies to warn them off.

    Assos and others don’t display the same cynicism, which is why I suspect they escape the hate.

    February 2, 2011 at 10:32 pm #640199
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    Tony Farrelly

    How many people do Torm
    How many people do Torm employ? How many do Rapha employ? Do Torm have any designers to pay? How much to Torm spend on office space, warehousing, marketing? Sponsoring a professional cycling team? Developing free iPhone apps? All that costs. The difference in profit margin between Torm and Rapha is probably a lot less than you think.

    I’m still intrigued as to why all this venom on pricing is coming Rapha’s way? I can think of a very expensive continental brand who’s clothing it could just as easily be argued doesn’t justify the prices it commands.

    Don’t get me wrong I’m not a Rapha fanboy in fact I find a lot of the “brand image” side of what they do either laughable the “epicness” or irritating the “exclusivity” but there’s no denying that most of their clothing is extremely well made and designed and the core parts of their range aren’t that expensive for what you are getting (certainly not if you buy it in the sale) while the more ludicrously over-priced stuff (yes, the silk scarf, the training diary and the granny bag) seems to me about brand positioning to bolster their high end image.

    February 2, 2011 at 9:51 pm #640197
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    Ramott

    The simple reason why Rapha
    The simple reason why Rapha are going after Tørm is profit margin. Tørm has shone a bright light on the difference between how much it actually costs to produce the pieces compared to the price Rapha sells them for. Their markup is enormous. It highlights the greed at the heart of their business model. If Rapha wearers knew that a rain jacket they buy for £190 actually cost £30 to produce, they might consider whether their passion is being exploited. Lets see how Rapha’s laywers fare when Nike launch their range.

    February 1, 2011 at 10:48 am #640195
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    mr-andrew

    I’d say that Rapha is not
    I’d say that Rapha is not going after Torm for ripping off their product, but rather their marketing campaign. As is often the case with small companies, I guess that they’ll have cut some corners on marketing and advertising, and simply copied something that is already working well.

    The website, the art direction of the photography and the overall positioning of Torm is identical to Rapha’s. If your a company like Rapha, your brand is to a greater or lesser extent more important than the product. If someone is infringing on that, then you have to act.

    It seems as if Torm have a product that is good enough to stand on it’s own, they just need to sell it as such.

    January 31, 2011 at 1:46 pm #640193
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    James Warrener

    If they come back online I
    If they come back online I would look to purchase based on the content of this thread.

    January 31, 2011 at 1:20 pm #640191
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    11speedaddict

    i have contacted torm via
    i have contacted torm via email and they couldnt say much “for legal reasons” but they have not sold out .
    they never slagged off rapha just informed me of the situation and that it was a real hassle. said they had modified the design slightly but they didnt indicate if Rapha were happy with the redesigned jersey
    as for sizing, i am a small in everything except medium assos (has anyone ever fitted into small assos ) and the torm jersey and base layer fitted me fine.
    anyone else had sizing issues with torm ? maybe its the larger sizes ??

    January 30, 2011 at 11:23 pm #640189
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    Martin Thomas

    I’m surprised to hear the two
    I’m surprised to hear the two jerseys were so similar. I got a Tørm l/s jersey for Christmas and really like it, except that the arms are too short by a really quite silly amount – a good four inches I’d say. I’ve also got a Rapha Stowaway jacket (as was) and it’s the best-fitting piece of kit I own (with the possible exception of my Assos shorts…could this be heading in a get-what-you-pay-for direction?)

    Both items are sized large and while I grant you they’re not directly comparable, I’d be amazed if Rapha’s jerseys were cut that differently to their jackets. I’d defo try a Tørm s/l jersey – if they become available again – because of the price, but this is one orangutan who won’t be buying any long-sleeved stuff from them, whatever the price.

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