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December 2, 2016 at 11:47 pm #26545
ianrobo
I have been on a Keto diet for 4 months, for those of you that don;t know this is basically a very low level of carbs.
In that time my calorie intake is basically the same but lost 10kg and even more benefit is I can compete say the Rise above sportive on no extra food during it. For training rides, can do 4 hours easy and my stats after an initial expected fall once fat adapted now storming up in front and constantly breaking Strava PB’s.
None of this stuffing gels, or trying to eat a bar, or waiting at food stops to get a bannana. Nope just fill up the bottle and go. I compete last years Marmotte in 11 hours and usual thing of needing food with me, this year doing it again, aiming for up to three hours quicker and saving about an hour with no stopping.
The benefits as I see it are enormous, we know Chris Froome does it and I suspect most of the pro peloton at stages in their training.
So for the good readers here, what are you experiences if on Keto, have you thought about it and how many of you suffer from ‘stomach issues’ as I used to do with gels etc.
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barbarus wrote:
barbarus wrote:Interesting. I’ve just finished reading Mark Beaumont’s book about his race around the world. You can see how being better able to burn fat could be helpful in this sort of situation. On the other hand, he makes it clear in the book that finding enough of any sort of food was difficult at times and in some places around the world. Needing a particular sort of food could really slow an athlete down I think.If you lose weight to a certtain level and the diet is sustainable why would it ? Sure MArk’s example is extreme but remeber the ultra long cyclists and Audax people don’t use a lot of explosive power either so don;t drain the glyocgen stores as much.
part_robot wrote:Is it possible/practical to do this and not lose weight? Specifically, being a vegetarian and already 12% BF is this going to require me to drink a litre of olive oil a day or something to keep up the calories?if you believe in calorie in and calorie out then yes and it is more difficult for vegans but I suspect your carb intake is relatively low to the standard diet anyway of 50-60% ?
But for this and esp protein then nuts are your best friend, calorie dense for relatively few and especially Macadamia ones.
part_robot
Is it possible/practical to
Is it possible/practical to do this and not lose weight? Specifically, being a vegetarian and already 12% BF is this going to require me to drink a litre of olive oil a day or something to keep up the calories?
barbarus
Interesting. I’ve just
Interesting. I’ve just finished reading Mark Beaumont’s book about his race around the world. You can see how being better able to burn fat could be helpful in this sort of situation. On the other hand, he makes it clear in the book that finding enough of any sort of food was difficult at times and in some places around the world. Needing a particular sort of food could really slow an athlete down I think.davel wrote:
davel wrote:
Of course ketogenesis just happens – you haven’t switched it on, you’ve just got better at it. You don’t have to watch youtube videos or buy a book to get better at it, either. Any cycling club will be full of riders who get round a strenuous 6 hour ride on a few drinks and bars. That’s 4 or 5000 calories fuelled by 2000 of glycogen and maybe another 1000 of ‘stuff’. Where does the rest come from – fresh air? I’ve never bonked on an ironman and most people who’ll put the training in will get round. How do you explain those ‘non-keto’ plebs dealing with a probable 4 or 5000 calorie deficit?ianrobo wrote:davel wrote:
I’m far from an expert in this, but ketogenesis just happens, when you’ve used your glycogen and anyone who’s done any sort of endurance training will have experienced this, even unwittingly. Training your body to dip into fat stores isn’t particularly new – less need to eat on long rides, you’re losing weight – fat, especially – surely you join those dots. Racing cyclists have ‘always’ known that they’ve needed to be as light as they can get away with and dieted accordingly. British Cycling have done a few blogs on fasted rides. Trainerroad workouts target fat-burning efficiency. We’ve known for a while that it takes approx 9000 calories to get round an ironman – you’d struggle to eat anything like 9000 calories in a day, never mind during an ironman, and that’s being fuelled somehow… I think the cynicism is directed towards it being a convenient label or book title, and accompanying diet. Like any ‘self help’ approach, when ideas are sold as a package some people will greet them with healthy skepticism, knowing that their prime function isn’t to get you round the Marmotte, but to make money for the packager. But if it does both, great: horses for courses – some people need the structure and guidance, nothing wrong with training targeting ketogenesis, and it’s good that it’s working for you.ianrobo wrote:I do suspect far more pro’s in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.
your right you are no expert and ketogensis just just not happen thats why none Keto/Fat adapted athletes bonk if they lose their glycogen stores.
You are aware these stores only contain 2K of calories therefore once exhausted you bonk ? Thats why non keto riders have to keep topping up their stores whith shit like gels etc.
Being fat adapted which takes up to two months means you can access your fat stores as energy and for the averga emale that is about 40K of calories for energy.
Now yes if you are sprinter you need carbs but if you are fat adapted then using carbs a couple of days before an event is like adding rocket fuel to your system. We should note now the pro peloton have far less ‘stomach issues’ than they used to have, I do wonder why ?
fair points.
It does not just happen in the way you suggest, but you will find for a lot of people and maybe you can comment the Ultra end of sports they are already in Ketosis before they start an event through their training and eating. I could point you to famous Ultra marathon runners and I am sure you can read up about Prof Tim Noakes if you are not aware of him before.
If it ‘just happened’ then no one would ever bonk in an event would they ?
Should add of course the body makes it’s own carbs from protein and carbs is the only macro nutrient the body makes.
davel
ianrobo wrote:
ianrobo wrote:davel wrote:
I’m far from an expert in this, but ketogenesis just happens, when you’ve used your glycogen and anyone who’s done any sort of endurance training will have experienced this, even unwittingly. Training your body to dip into fat stores isn’t particularly new – less need to eat on long rides, you’re losing weight – fat, especially – surely you join those dots. Racing cyclists have ‘always’ known that they’ve needed to be as light as they can get away with and dieted accordingly. British Cycling have done a few blogs on fasted rides. Trainerroad workouts target fat-burning efficiency. We’ve known for a while that it takes approx 9000 calories to get round an ironman – you’d struggle to eat anything like 9000 calories in a day, never mind during an ironman, and that’s being fuelled somehow… I think the cynicism is directed towards it being a convenient label or book title, and accompanying diet. Like any ‘self help’ approach, when ideas are sold as a package some people will greet them with healthy skepticism, knowing that their prime function isn’t to get you round the Marmotte, but to make money for the packager. But if it does both, great: horses for courses – some people need the structure and guidance, nothing wrong with training targeting ketogenesis, and it’s good that it’s working for you.ianrobo wrote:I do suspect far more pro’s in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.
your right you are no expert and ketogensis just just not happen thats why none Keto/Fat adapted athletes bonk if they lose their glycogen stores.
You are aware these stores only contain 2K of calories therefore once exhausted you bonk ? Thats why non keto riders have to keep topping up their stores whith shit like gels etc.
Being fat adapted which takes up to two months means you can access your fat stores as energy and for the averga emale that is about 40K of calories for energy.
Now yes if you are sprinter you need carbs but if you are fat adapted then using carbs a couple of days before an event is like adding rocket fuel to your system. We should note now the pro peloton have far less ‘stomach issues’ than they used to have, I do wonder why ?
Of course ketogenesis just happens – you haven’t switched it on, you’ve just got better at it. You don’t have to watch youtube videos or buy a book to get better at it, either.
Any cycling club will be full of riders who get round a strenuous 6 hour ride on a few drinks and bars. That’s 4 or 5000 calories fuelled by 2000 of glycogen and maybe another 1000 of ‘stuff’. Where does the rest come from – fresh air?
I’ve never bonked on an ironman and most people who’ll put the training in will get round. How do you explain those ‘non-keto’ plebs dealing with a probable 4 or 5000 calorie deficit?
Argos74 wrote:– it doesn’t sound like it’s much fun.Let me ask you why, as I sit here for brekkie before a ride with sausage Bacon and egg ? far nice than porridge !
davel wrote:
davel wrote:
I’m far from an expert in this, but ketogenesis just happens, when you’ve used your glycogen and anyone who’s done any sort of endurance training will have experienced this, even unwittingly. Training your body to dip into fat stores isn’t particularly new – less need to eat on long rides, you’re losing weight – fat, especially – surely you join those dots. Racing cyclists have ‘always’ known that they’ve needed to be as light as they can get away with and dieted accordingly. British Cycling have done a few blogs on fasted rides. Trainerroad workouts target fat-burning efficiency. We’ve known for a while that it takes approx 9000 calories to get round an ironman – you’d struggle to eat anything like 9000 calories in a day, never mind during an ironman, and that’s being fuelled somehow… I think the cynicism is directed towards it being a convenient label or book title, and accompanying diet. Like any ‘self help’ approach, when ideas are sold as a package some people will greet them with healthy skepticism, knowing that their prime function isn’t to get you round the Marmotte, but to make money for the packager. But if it does both, great: horses for courses – some people need the structure and guidance, nothing wrong with training targeting ketogenesis, and it’s good that it’s working for you.ianrobo wrote:I do suspect far more pro’s in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.
your right you are no expert and ketogensis just just not happen thats why none Keto/Fat adapted athletes bonk if they lose their glycogen stores.
You are aware these stores only contain 2K of calories therefore once exhausted you bonk ? Thats why non keto riders have to keep topping up their stores whith shit like gels etc.
Being fat adapted which takes up to two months means you can access your fat stores as energy and for the averga emale that is about 40K of calories for energy.
Now yes if you are sprinter you need carbs but if you are fat adapted then using carbs a couple of days before an event is like adding rocket fuel to your system. We should note now the pro peloton have far less ‘stomach issues’ than they used to have, I do wonder why ?
Argos74
My limited understanding is
My limited understanding is that low carb training can work from some athletes, in that it trains the body to utilise fat as an energy source for long, low intensity, steady state efforts, and slightly increases the available power outpout from the drip drip metabolisation of fat stored in the body.
I’d like to see any work done on the “train low compete high” carbohydrate cycle, and if it makes the muscles more “spongey” as a glycogen store for power efforts in a long event.
But it’s a very specific target market – I doubt that track cyclists and sprinters would go within a flying mile of it, and most recreational riders who are happy with 60-70 miles on Sunday morning and the odd ton on special occasions might not get much benefit from it.
My only other worry about going keto would be its flexibility and ability to react in a race context – making, or catching a break, domestiques ferrying water bottles from the race car, shepherding a sprinter into position. If an athlete’s committed to improving LISS performance / efficiency, does it limit their ability to say “sod it, I’m/we’re going balls out for 15 minutes”?
Fundamentally, although I can see the benefits in some circumstances – I could see it working well for RAAM and Transcontinental riders – it doesn’t sound like it’s much fun.
ianrobo wrote:
ianrobo wrote:I do suspect far more pro’s in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.
I’m far from an expert in this, but ketogenesis just happens, when you’ve used your glycogen and anyone who’s done any sort of endurance training will have experienced this, even unwittingly. Training your body to dip into fat stores isn’t particularly new – less need to eat on long rides, you’re losing weight – fat, especially – surely you join those dots.
Racing cyclists have ‘always’ known that they’ve needed to be as light as they can get away with and dieted accordingly. British Cycling have done a few blogs on fasted rides. Trainerroad workouts target fat-burning efficiency. We’ve known for a while that it takes approx 9000 calories to get round an ironman – you’d struggle to eat anything like 9000 calories in a day, never mind during an ironman, and that’s being fuelled somehow…
I think the cynicism is directed towards it being a convenient label or book title, and accompanying diet. Like any ‘self help’ approach, when ideas are sold as a package some people will greet them with healthy skepticism, knowing that their prime function isn’t to get you round the Marmotte, but to make money for the packager.
But if it does both, great: horses for courses – some people need the structure and guidance, nothing wrong with training targeting ketogenesis, and it’s good that it’s working for you.
beezus fufoon
just take a slab of lard in
just take a slab of lard in the back pocket for rides – then if I you get constipated it also comes in handy – like a multitool
Yorkshire wallet wrote:
Yorkshire wallet wrote:
Because they’re probably sponsored by carb in a gel companies. I too into coffee and cake to make a go of keto but I’d be interested to read a pro take on it.ConcordeCX wrote:ianrobo wrote:I do suspect far more pro’s in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.why wouldn’t they admit it? There’s nothing illegal or wrong about it?
Well if you read the FASTER study by Dr Jeff Volek and use this https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151117091234.htm as a byline you can see the benefits for cyclists.
Now a good question why not more out ? the most famous two are Chris Froome and LeBron James. Both at the top of the sports and seen three theories on it
1) the one above about sponsors, it is strange the likes of SiS don’t sponsor a cycle team as a mainline sponsor
2) People say athletes dont like to talk about diets etc
3) Still seen as a ‘fad’ diet (though I would argue it is the most natural way of eating) and don’t want to be exposed to it.
We look at the african runners (lets ignore doping) and do you think when learning their trde they were high carb diets ?
List of athletes on the Paleo diet here (it is basically Keto but allowing more carbs through fruit – http://stayfitcentral.com/paleo-diet-2/20-paleo-elite-professional-athletes-learn-their-secrets-to-success/ a ot of famous names and I look at Djokovic who ditched Gluten/wheat and basically means LCHF/Paleo/Keto really.
Leviathan
ianrobo wrote:BBB wrote:Meanwhile overhelming majority of cyclists maintain their weight and fitness just as well or better without any “special” diets.not special just not eating processed crap into your body.
Instead as you on a ride get desperate for food when carb stores run low – otherwise bonking or have to carry stuff, I carry on past you as you stuff yourself at a feed station or desperately looking for a shop.
The feeling of not having to have a gel or a crappy energy drink or bananas etc is great.
The choice is yours of course.
For carb just read sugar/glucose thats all carbs are … nothing more
[Obi Wan voice]Be mindful of your ego, your gains are transitory. There are plenty of healthy carbs; please, the bananas are innocent. This diet may well have helped you, but snobbery is not a response to skepticism. Until you are No. 1, the man in front of you still ate that Mars Bar and pasta bowl. No diet is perfect. I am glad you have improved upon yourself. You will be indeed a great marmotteer.[/Obi Wan]
Anonymous
ConcordeCX wrote:
ConcordeCX wrote:ianrobo wrote:I do suspect far more pro’s in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.why wouldn’t they admit it? There’s nothing illegal or wrong about it?
Because they’re probably sponsored by carb in a gel companies.
I too into coffee and cake to make a go of keto but I’d be interested to read a pro take on it.
ianrobo wrote:I do suspect far more pro’s in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.why wouldn’t they admit it? There’s nothing illegal or wrong about it?
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