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fullupandslowingdown.
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December 2, 2016 at 11:47 pm #26545
ianrobo
I have been on a Keto diet for 4 months, for those of you that don;t know this is basically a very low level of carbs.
In that time my calorie intake is basically the same but lost 10kg and even more benefit is I can compete say the Rise above sportive on no extra food during it. For training rides, can do 4 hours easy and my stats after an initial expected fall once fat adapted now storming up in front and constantly breaking Strava PB’s.
None of this stuffing gels, or trying to eat a bar, or waiting at food stops to get a bannana. Nope just fill up the bottle and go. I compete last years Marmotte in 11 hours and usual thing of needing food with me, this year doing it again, aiming for up to three hours quicker and saving about an hour with no stopping.
The benefits as I see it are enormous, we know Chris Froome does it and I suspect most of the pro peloton at stages in their training.
So for the good readers here, what are you experiences if on Keto, have you thought about it and how many of you suffer from ‘stomach issues’ as I used to do with gels etc.
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madcarew
Not wanting to put myself up
Not wanting to put myself up as an expert, but I do have a depth of experience both academic and practical on this.
Here’s to removing some obfuscation:
- There are 4 fuel sources in the body.
- The first, aeroobic, fat, is constantly used by the body to fuel its processes. It is typically a slow burning system, not suited to high output efforts (good as the primary fuel source for an all day ramble, but not for a 1 hr TT). There are limitations on the speed fat can be metabolised due to the steps required. an 80 kg person who is 20% body fat has enough fuel on board to cycle at 10 mph for about 3 weeks without refuelling. Produces CO2 as a by product
- The second, aerobic, glycogen, uses sugar / glycogen for efforts above a basic level. The body can only store enough for about 60 – 90 mins strenuous exercise. However, if this is done in bursts, people may go several hours before running out of glycogen stores. This is typically when the bonk occurs and they feel lacking in energy. Those who are well adapted for fat burning will find this less of an issue, as a higher percentage of their energy supply comes from burning fat, and so they are using less glycogen supplies. Produces CO2 as a by product
- The third, anaerobic, glycogen, in a different energy system is for high energy / maximal efforts that last up to 30 – 60 seconds. Produces Lactic acid.
- The last, anaerobic, uses Creatine phosphate for efforts lasting up to a few seconds, typically from rest. The first 40 metres fo a 100 m sprint.
- None of these systems shuts down. We all burn fat as we sleep, and in the background as we go about our daily activities, to greater and lesser extents. While we may be primarily using glucose for some activities we will also be using fat as well.
- There is a limit, for everyone, as to how fast they can metabolise fat into available energy. Typically it will be up to about 70% max HR. Beyond this you need to use glucose, so fat is good as a steady state fuel, but high energy efforts will enevitably deplete glycogen stores.
- Except for being in ketosis, the amount of fat you use is largely unrelated to your diet, and more to the regularity of your meals, and the intensity of your activity, and your physiology, which can be altered with pracise.
SkinnyGoat wrote:Take a look at this: http://julianabuhring.com/keto-baby/It is an interesting read.
yep exactly my experiences and forgot to mention the big one of reduced inflamination. Because don’t eat the crap like vegetable, soya oils etc we reduce the moega 6 fats which are known to cause it and a lot and omega 3 reduces it. So eat more Salmon etc and recovery shoots up !
jollygoodvelo wrote:ianrobo wrote:Simon E wrote:
It may take more effort than if eating meat, fish, dairy etc but it’s certainly not incompatible.Leviathan wrote:I am guessing this is not compatible with being a vegan (not that I am one.)think the big issue for vegans are potatoes
And bacon.
oh we should note the fake bacon etc that some vegans may eat is awful stuff in terms of diet and nutrition, fake meat, so full of crap
SkinnyGoat
Take a look at this: http:/
Take a look at this: http://julianabuhring.com/keto-baby/
It is an interesting read.
Anonymous
ianrobo wrote:Simon E wrote:
It may take more effort than if eating meat, fish, dairy etc but it’s certainly not incompatible.Leviathan wrote:I am guessing this is not compatible with being a vegan (not that I am one.)think the big issue for vegans are potatoes
And bacon.
davel
That is ace.
That is ace.I know who would disagree
I know who would disagree with all this.
beezus fufoon wrote:Not sure about going full keto, but I know a number of well regarded coaches are moving in that general direction;http://optimumnutrition4sport.co.uk/2016/11/15/my-ten-nutrition-commandments/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UcIvv5KdJo
edit; thanks Ianrobo – fat adapted is the term I was looking for
I think this whole area is fascinating, I spoke to my coach about this and he used to train under 21 teams in another country and he is fully behind it. He never got involved in nutrition but the nutrionist they did have certainly restricted carbs to ‘good ones’ and potaotes were out.
beezus fufoon
Not sure about going full
Not sure about going full keto, but I know a number of well regarded coaches are moving in that general direction;
http://optimumnutrition4sport.co.uk/2016/11/15/my-ten-nutrition-commandments/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UcIvv5KdJo
edit; thanks Ianrobo – fat adapted is the term I was looking for
Rob Fraser wrote:
Rob Fraser wrote:Surely the loss of 10kg however you achieved it means you are using less energy than before? That may have a part to play in it. I am a type one diabetic and even the mention of keytones sends shivers down my spineWe all knwo th impact of weight on cycling and that comes down to less power for same speed. Well my training is to increase power as well so since being fat adapted I have raised FTP from 235 to approx 250W in 2mths of proper training.
As for Ketones, yes for you a problem, but way way higher that nutrional ketosis. Keto eating IMHO is a cure for T2D but obviously Type 1 is far different.
davel wrote:ianrobo wrote:davel wrote:
Of course ketogenesis just happens – you haven’t switched it on, you’ve just got better at it. You don’t have to watch youtube videos or buy a book to get better at it, either. Any cycling club will be full of riders who get round a strenuous 6 hour ride on a few drinks and bars. That’s 4 or 5000 calories fuelled by 2000 of glycogen and maybe another 1000 of ‘stuff’. Where does the rest come from – fresh air? I’ve never bonked on an ironman and most people who’ll put the training in will get round. How do you explain those ‘non-keto’ plebs dealing with a probable 4 or 5000 calorie deficit?ianrobo wrote:davel wrote:
I’m far from an expert in this, but ketogenesis just happens, when you’ve used your glycogen and anyone who’s done any sort of endurance training will have experienced this, even unwittingly. Training your body to dip into fat stores isn’t particularly new – less need to eat on long rides, you’re losing weight – fat, especially – surely you join those dots. Racing cyclists have ‘always’ known that they’ve needed to be as light as they can get away with and dieted accordingly. British Cycling have done a few blogs on fasted rides. Trainerroad workouts target fat-burning efficiency. We’ve known for a while that it takes approx 9000 calories to get round an ironman – you’d struggle to eat anything like 9000 calories in a day, never mind during an ironman, and that’s being fuelled somehow… I think the cynicism is directed towards it being a convenient label or book title, and accompanying diet. Like any ‘self help’ approach, when ideas are sold as a package some people will greet them with healthy skepticism, knowing that their prime function isn’t to get you round the Marmotte, but to make money for the packager. But if it does both, great: horses for courses – some people need the structure and guidance, nothing wrong with training targeting ketogenesis, and it’s good that it’s working for you.ianrobo wrote:I do suspect far more pro’s in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.
your right you are no expert and ketogensis just just not happen thats why none Keto/Fat adapted athletes bonk if they lose their glycogen stores.
You are aware these stores only contain 2K of calories therefore once exhausted you bonk ? Thats why non keto riders have to keep topping up their stores whith shit like gels etc.
Being fat adapted which takes up to two months means you can access your fat stores as energy and for the averga emale that is about 40K of calories for energy.
Now yes if you are sprinter you need carbs but if you are fat adapted then using carbs a couple of days before an event is like adding rocket fuel to your system. We should note now the pro peloton have far less ‘stomach issues’ than they used to have, I do wonder why ?
fair points.
It does not just happen in the way you suggest, but you will find for a lot of people and maybe you can comment the Ultra end of sports they are already in Ketosis before they start an event through their training and eating. I could point you to famous Ultra marathon runners and I am sure you can read up about Prof Tim Noakes if you are not aware of him before.
If it ‘just happened’ then no one would ever bonk in an event would they ?
Should add of course the body makes it’s own carbs from protein and carbs is the only macro nutrient the body makes.
Yeah I think we probably basically agree on the science – I noticed improvements via fasted rides.
‘Just happens’ over-simplifies it somewhat, but I’m assuming a level of training and adaptation in the cases we’re talking about.
The thing I’m struggling with is this concept of being ‘in ketosis’, in the way that after 2 months you’ve reached Zen. I’m inclined to think it’s a less binary process of just becoming a more adapted, efficient endurance athlete.
I am sure at the top level they mix and match this and fasted rides is a great training tool but you have to understand the impact of carbs on your body etc. Being a fat adapted athtlete is not the same as being in Ketosis though. Fat adapted means you use fat as a primary source of energy, being in ketosis is in a range of ketones between 0.5-3 mmol
Rob Fraser wrote:
Rob Fraser wrote:Surely the loss of 10kg however you achieved it means you are using less energy than before? That may have a part to play in it. I am a type one diabetic and even the mention of keytones sends shivers down my spineYep: and as you get fitter you require fewer calories to do the same work.
Resarf
Surely the loss of 10kg
Surely the loss of 10kg however you achieved it means you are using less energy than before? That may have a part to play in it. I am a type one diabetic and even the mention of keytones sends shivers down my spineianrobo wrote:davel wrote:
Of course ketogenesis just happens – you haven’t switched it on, you’ve just got better at it. You don’t have to watch youtube videos or buy a book to get better at it, either. Any cycling club will be full of riders who get round a strenuous 6 hour ride on a few drinks and bars. That’s 4 or 5000 calories fuelled by 2000 of glycogen and maybe another 1000 of ‘stuff’. Where does the rest come from – fresh air? I’ve never bonked on an ironman and most people who’ll put the training in will get round. How do you explain those ‘non-keto’ plebs dealing with a probable 4 or 5000 calorie deficit?ianrobo wrote:davel wrote:
I’m far from an expert in this, but ketogenesis just happens, when you’ve used your glycogen and anyone who’s done any sort of endurance training will have experienced this, even unwittingly. Training your body to dip into fat stores isn’t particularly new – less need to eat on long rides, you’re losing weight – fat, especially – surely you join those dots. Racing cyclists have ‘always’ known that they’ve needed to be as light as they can get away with and dieted accordingly. British Cycling have done a few blogs on fasted rides. Trainerroad workouts target fat-burning efficiency. We’ve known for a while that it takes approx 9000 calories to get round an ironman – you’d struggle to eat anything like 9000 calories in a day, never mind during an ironman, and that’s being fuelled somehow… I think the cynicism is directed towards it being a convenient label or book title, and accompanying diet. Like any ‘self help’ approach, when ideas are sold as a package some people will greet them with healthy skepticism, knowing that their prime function isn’t to get you round the Marmotte, but to make money for the packager. But if it does both, great: horses for courses – some people need the structure and guidance, nothing wrong with training targeting ketogenesis, and it’s good that it’s working for you.ianrobo wrote:I do suspect far more pro’s in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.
your right you are no expert and ketogensis just just not happen thats why none Keto/Fat adapted athletes bonk if they lose their glycogen stores.
You are aware these stores only contain 2K of calories therefore once exhausted you bonk ? Thats why non keto riders have to keep topping up their stores whith shit like gels etc.
Being fat adapted which takes up to two months means you can access your fat stores as energy and for the averga emale that is about 40K of calories for energy.
Now yes if you are sprinter you need carbs but if you are fat adapted then using carbs a couple of days before an event is like adding rocket fuel to your system. We should note now the pro peloton have far less ‘stomach issues’ than they used to have, I do wonder why ?
fair points.
It does not just happen in the way you suggest, but you will find for a lot of people and maybe you can comment the Ultra end of sports they are already in Ketosis before they start an event through their training and eating. I could point you to famous Ultra marathon runners and I am sure you can read up about Prof Tim Noakes if you are not aware of him before.
If it ‘just happened’ then no one would ever bonk in an event would they ?
Should add of course the body makes it’s own carbs from protein and carbs is the only macro nutrient the body makes.
Yeah I think we probably basically agree on the science – I noticed improvements via fasted rides.
‘Just happens’ over-simplifies it somewhat, but I’m assuming a level of training and adaptation in the cases we’re talking about.
The thing I’m struggling with is this concept of being ‘in ketosis’, in the way that after 2 months you’ve reached Zen. I’m inclined to think it’s a less binary process of just becoming a more adapted, efficient endurance athlete.
Yorkshire wallet wrote:
Yorkshire wallet wrote:
Because they’re probably sponsored by carb in a gel companies. I too into coffee and cake to make a go of keto but I’d be interested to read a pro take on it.ConcordeCX wrote:ianrobo wrote:I do suspect far more pro’s in endurance sports are on a form Keto for periods than care to admit in public.why wouldn’t they admit it? There’s nothing illegal or wrong about it?
ah, yes, of course. How naive of me!
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