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March 8, 2015 at 11:58 am #23439
ianrobo
Mail on Sunday today has gone big on the TVM scandal of late 1990’s and Sky’s current sports director’s involvement in it, the evidence seems clear. So why is Brailsford denying it ?
http://mobile.nytimes.com/reuters/2015/03/08/sports/cycling/08reuters-cycling-doping-sky.html
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mrmo
BL7 wrote:
STB – managed by aBL7 wrote:
STB – managed by a known cheat. Contador known cheat. Astana – known cheats. etc, etc, etc.So cannondale, managed by a known cheat, Etix-QS do you really think Lefevere didn’t know what was going on. Museew has admitted he was doping.
If you want to go to extremes, i don’t think you will find ANY top level teams that are not implicated in some way with doping. Be it riders, be it DSs, sponsors, owners, managers, doctors, etc etc etc.
Now the real question is how many riders have been busted where the evidence is irrefutable, and not based on opinion or trace levels of some “masking” agent.
BL7
I refer to my initial
I refer to my initial email…there are an awful lot of armchair ‘experts’ out there.
base your debate on proof,
STB – managed by a known cheat. Contador known cheat. Astana – known cheats. etc, etc, etc.
Praise the innocent, and slate these known cheats who have stained the reputation of this sport. Innocent until proven guilty, not innocent but presumed guilty because you haven’t been caught yet!
daddyELVIS
BL7 wrote:The last 2 posts
BL7 wrote:The last 2 posts fully show the problem with cycling.A known drug cheat, i.e. Contador announces he is going to quit. He shouldn’t even be in the peloton, never mind folk in the UK ‘celebrating’ his ability, his style, the exciting racing with him in it.’
You can’t moan about druggies, moan about Lance duping everyone on one hand, then claim Contador is a ‘legend’! Contador couldn’t hold Lance’s wheel, and they are both cheats. Does this mean that Armstrong too is a ‘legend’?
On one hand everyone wants a clean sport with no cheating. On the other, we want people like Contador to be ‘worshipped’, ‘celebrated’ and ‘encouraged’.
Double standards.
Until the viewers, the supporters, the sponsors, and eventually the governing body really get serious about dealing with these cheats in this sport, the tainted shadow will always follow it around. The people above who ‘support’ what Contador brings to this sport should think hard about what this really means.
I’d rather see Froome and Quintana chase each other up every hill, with Contador and his druggie pals all sitting with Lance in the naughty corner! Once a cheat, always a cheat!
You are deluded. He’s a cheat because he got caught (more precisely because the attempts to cover it up failed!). This is the pinnacle of cycling – to believe your heroes are winning the world’s toughest and fastest races on bread and water is laughable! As I have mentioned elsewhere, with the recent crop of positives, we now have a 2-speed peloton: The fast, clean riders and the slow, doped riders! Get real!!
The last 2 posts fully show
The last 2 posts fully show the problem with cycling.A known drug cheat, i.e. Contador announces he is going to quit. He shouldn’t even be in the peloton, never mind folk in the UK ‘celebrating’ his ability, his style, the exciting racing with him in it.’
You can’t moan about druggies, moan about Lance duping everyone on one hand, then claim Contador is a ‘legend’! Contador couldn’t hold Lance’s wheel, and they are both cheats. Does this mean that Armstrong too is a ‘legend’?
On one hand everyone wants a clean sport with no cheating. On the other, we want people like Contador to be ‘worshipped’, ‘celebrated’ and ‘encouraged’.
Double standards.
Until the viewers, the supporters, the sponsors, and eventually the governing body really get serious about dealing with these cheats in this sport, the tainted shadow will always follow it around. The people above who ‘support’ what Contador brings to this sport should think hard about what this really means.
I’d rather see Froome and Quintana chase each other up every hill, with Contador and his druggie pals all sitting with Lance in the naughty corner! Once a cheat, always a cheat!
Cyclist wrote:BL7
Cyclist wrote:BL7 wrote:so…the good news today – Bertie is going to retire. That’ll be one less known cheat in the peloton.
the bad news…This won’t happen until the end of 2016. We still have to embrace him in the pack, despite his past, despite his team Managed by a known cheat, despite his ‘favourable treatment’ by the UCI, when he should have been hung.
Little wonder those boys who do actually race clean must feel sick, as Brailsford has quoted!
Ignorant post.
Simply one of the best bike riders of his generation. Froome & Contador are going to make the season.
Agreed! Stage races would be a bore without Contador! An absolute legend!!
Cyclist
BL7 wrote:so…
the good newsBL7 wrote:so…the good news today – Bertie is going to retire. That’ll be one less known cheat in the peloton.
the bad news…This won’t happen until the end of 2016. We still have to embrace him in the pack, despite his past, despite his team Managed by a known cheat, despite his ‘favourable treatment’ by the UCI, when he should have been hung.
Little wonder those boys who do actually race clean must feel sick, as Brailsford has quoted!
Ignorant post.
Simply one of the best bike riders of his generation. Froome & Contador are going to make the season.
One things for sure, if they
One things for sure, if they want to win anything this year, they need to get an ‘experienced’ doc, like they had in their glory days! Or, they could ride clean. That’s the choice! This is big-money sport – when will people get real?so…
the good news today –
so…the good news today – Bertie is going to retire. That’ll be one less known cheat in the peloton.
the bad news…This won’t happen until the end of 2016. We still have to embrace him in the pack, despite his past, despite his team Managed by a known cheat, despite his ‘favourable treatment’ by the UCI, when he should have been hung.
Little wonder those boys who do actually race clean must feel sick, as Brailsford has quoted!
Paul J
fenix, you need to re-read
fenix, you need to re-read the last paragraph of my post. I did not argue Sky are definitely doping.fenix
Paul J wrote:What have Sky
Paul J wrote:What have Sky done to clean up cycling?They won’t join the MPCC, with its tougher rules on certain steroids and TUEs, and consequences for doping.
Chris Froome openly abuses asthma steroids in races, and is defended for it.
Skys’ two Tour winners both showed incredible weight loss. Somehow, despite drastic weight loss resulting in being built like stick insects, they still both remained world-class time trialists and lost none of their power on the flats (indeed, maybe even gained).
Sky initially had a “no dodgy cycling doctors” policy, but then, despite having well qualified medical and performance staff, they went and hired Geert fucking Leinders for his cycling “expertise”. Leinders is known for having long been an insider, deep in the Belgian/Dutch cycling “performance” culture with Panasonic and then later head doctor at Rabobank. There are a number of accounts by former riders of an endemic doping culture at those teams, with doping programmes formulated and administered by Leinders.
Why did Sky, who did not lack for qualified medical staff free of cycling-doping baggage, have such a great need for a “traditional” cycling doctor? Brailsford says it was just naïvety.
Then there was Brailsfords initial claims they would be transparent and publish data, which he backtracked on. Why?
Now, I’d still be willing to believe Sky found a way to win back to back tours with 2 different riders clean. It’s /possible/, but you can’t deny there’s a hint of smoke. Whether that smoke comes from Sky, or has just drifted over from the general cloud hanging over pro-cycling is hard to tell. However, anyone who gets annoyed at suspicions of doping at Sky and vehemently denies it could be possible is just way off in Cloud Fanboy land.
It’s amazing what nationalism will blind people to.
Join MPCC – the ‘club’ that Astana are part of ? Why the hell would you join that club – they’d get slated for alignin with teams with massive doping problems.
The rest of your issues are just theories.
If Sky were doping – then where are all the positive tests ? Remember Disco and the slew of positives from ex riders still doping and getting busted ?
Presumably Brailsford had similar programs for the GB Track team ? Where are their positive tests ? Where are the exposes ? Where are the confessions ?Doping on that kind of scale would leak out. There would be slip ups. There would be people wanting to talk. What about JTL ? He must feel hard done to – he could sell a drugs story for thousands – if there was one.
Leinders was only free for
Leinders was only free for Sky to hire in ’10 because he’d been let go by Rabobank in ’09, co-incidentally (cough) after the results of an inquiry into the Rasmussen affair became available to Rabobank.It’s very hard to believe that Team Sky were not aware of one of the biggest scandals in recent Tour history and Leinders connection to it. They’d have had to be not just super-naïve about the sport they were in, but would have had to have /not/ looked at the CV of the doctor they were hiring for his cycling “experience”.
It is still possible Sky wanted him for non-doping cycling experience (they’d had team health issues at the previous vuelta iirc, which I’ve read cited as a reason for hiring him). However, it is literally incredible that Sky were wholly ignorant of his connections to doping.
BL7 wrote:
For sure Sky haveBL7 wrote:
For sure Sky have stuck their heads up by stating they will ride clean, and only employee clean employees. Maybe this should be commended rather than treated cynically? If every team did this, we maybe could look to finally rid the sport of bad influences, ‘cheats’ and finally show new young riders that ‘if’ they get caught then they are finished, for good! Rewarding known cheats with big salaries and a way in the future of this sport has no place!And back in the real world, try it and you will be sued for breach of employment rights, as has happened!
People will still cheat, if there is a chance of not getting caught and making money then people will cheat. Ask yourself why in countries where there is the death penalty people are still being executed.
I never knew there were so
I never knew there were so many ‘experts’ out there. An awful lot of people ‘seem’ to think they know an awful lot about Sky, about Wiggins / Froome / Knaven / Yates / Doctors etc etc. I also see an awful lot of people seem to have very good memories about exactly what (or what not) Cyclists were doing 10 years ago!Amazing – these people should be on the TV.
I note a very distinct lack of comment about the known ‘druggies’ who still work and ride in this sport today! Bertie king of the Steaks very rarely gets a mention. WHY? TSB Team is full of ‘druggies’, as for Astana… well where do you start? Recent issues, Vino, Armstrong (2nd time round), Contador, even Nibali?
For sure Sky have stuck their heads up by stating they will ride clean, and only employee clean employees. Maybe this should be commended rather than treated cynically? If every team did this, we maybe could look to finally rid the sport of bad influences, ‘cheats’ and finally show new young riders that ‘if’ they get caught then they are finished, for good! Rewarding known cheats with big salaries and a way in the future of this sport has no place!
What have Sky done to clean
What have Sky done to clean up cycling?They won’t join the MPCC, with its tougher rules on certain steroids and TUEs, and consequences for doping.
Chris Froome openly abuses asthma steroids in races, and is defended for it.
Skys’ two Tour winners both showed incredible weight loss. Somehow, despite drastic weight loss resulting in being built like stick insects, they still both remained world-class time trialists and lost none of their power on the flats (indeed, maybe even gained).
Sky initially had a “no dodgy cycling doctors” policy, but then, despite having well qualified medical and performance staff, they went and hired Geert fucking Leinders for his cycling “expertise”. Leinders is known for having long been an insider, deep in the Belgian/Dutch cycling “performance” culture with Panasonic and then later head doctor at Rabobank. There are a number of accounts by former riders of an endemic doping culture at those teams, with doping programmes formulated and administered by Leinders.
Why did Sky, who did not lack for qualified medical staff free of cycling-doping baggage, have such a great need for a “traditional” cycling doctor? Brailsford says it was just naïvety.
Then there was Brailsfords initial claims they would be transparent and publish data, which he backtracked on. Why?
Now, I’d still be willing to believe Sky found a way to win back to back tours with 2 different riders clean. It’s /possible/, but you can’t deny there’s a hint of smoke. Whether that smoke comes from Sky, or has just drifted over from the general cloud hanging over pro-cycling is hard to tell. However, anyone who gets annoyed at suspicions of doping at Sky and vehemently denies it could be possible is just way off in Cloud Fanboy land.
It’s amazing what nationalism will blind people to.
bashthebox
Gkam84 wrote:
Jesus…..SkyGkam84 wrote:
Jesus…..Sky fan…MUCH.I think every team should go through the audit, not just Sky, I never said they were the same as Astana either.
All world tour teams should go through an audit every year. Weed out the arseholes that are continually bring the sport down
Yeah I’ll admit to being a Sky fan, as much for the reason that they have tried hard to clean up cycling, whilst increasing performance by doing a whole raft of rather revolutionary things.
You didn’t make it clear you wanted an audit of all teams – you very specifically mentioned Sky – so I’ll stand by my assertion that your previous comment was daft.
As for a yearly audit – how would you propose that works? A full team audit would most likely need to be scheduled; anything else would disrupt training or race programs. A scheduled audit would make it rather easy for teams to avoid suspicion. We’ve already got in and out of competition testing and biological passports – which clearly work to an extent. Beyond that, we must acknowledge that dirty cheats will always exist. The rewards for getting to the top are huge, and some people in sport, as in life (look at the banks, ffs) will do anything they can to get to the top. Doping is impossible to eradicate entirely, but the governing bodies are getting better at it, in cycling probably more than in any other sport. -
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