road.cc live blog: How to watch the Cyclo-cross Worlds, 12 riders test positive at one race, Should drivers with points on their licence be required to have black box car insurance? + more

Simmo72 wrote:

Arguably making on board camera's a legal requirement.  If you know you are on film it will have an impact on a lot of bad driving.  it won't stop the narsacistic idiots and illegal drivers who just don't care but it could provide a cultural change

the down side is you need resource to review, laws to support, police to action and something to protect all those genuine mistakes and edge cases......and it is very 1984......so it won't happen...maybe.

Personally, I think this is a great idea, and make a non functioning camera an mot fail. In most cases I suspect evidence would be captured on 3rd party vehicles, rather than the offending vehicle, but that's ok. I have always thought plod had a bias towards catching speeders as opposed to other traffic offences because it is easy, and conclusive, to read a number from a display, compared for example to arguing that somebody jumped the lights. Cameras would give plod the evidence they need. But as you say, there are too many PC people in the UK who would argue infringement of civil liberties. Presumably meaning spouses could check up on where cheating partners had been while supposedly working late!

surly_by_name wrote:

Who are you going to get to pay for the black boxes? Currently they are offered for free by insurance companies because insurance companies believe they will reduce claims or at least provide data that allows the insurer to better price insurance (i.e., insurers are willing to pay for them because they benefit the insurer). Can't see insurers forking out for blanket installation for good of cyclists/other vulnerable road users. Good luck trying to convince the govt to add them to all vehicles (queue outrage from motorists about added cost of motoring in times of austerity). In August last year the FT reported that "[telematics boxes]can cost as little as £50 to buy now, and less than that to install" so maybe the solution will ultimately be that they get so cheap it stops being an issue. The other problem about blanket installation (before you get to privacy concerns) is that it will make some people economically uninsurable. There's an argument these people shouldn't be driving anyway. But tey probably will and they probably will continue to do so, just on an uninsured basis, which may not be a great outcome as they are more likely to have collisions. 

Many, if not most late model cars (post 2012?) have this installed already. Car makers install it as part of the airbag and crash prevention systems, it stores data for the last 2 minutes. The data from these has been used in a number of court cases here down under to establish the behaviour of the driver immediately prior to the accident. The technology is already there. 

jimt wrote:

Be carefull what you wish for. Only a hop skip and a jump to boxes being extended to bikes.
I am all for punishment for bad behaviour but I am also a beleaver in right to privacy.

When they fit effective black boxes to every car as a legal requirement I'll be delighted to fit one on the road bike. By all means have privacy, but if you insist on driving a tonne or so of polluting monstrosity maybe you should have to make that sacrifice?

jimt wrote:

Be carefull what you wish for. Only a hop skip and a jump to boxes being extended to bikes.
I am all for punishment for bad behaviour but I am also a beleaver in right to privacy.

What's a 'beleaver'? Is it the opposite of a 'remainer' ?

RoubaixCube wrote:

What if one circumvents this blackbox by using a hire car? They can easily say they forgot to take the box with them when switching vehicles. 

 

Hire companies should also up their standards and run checks on drivers 

Many do, but also every check involves a charge from the DVLA and the appointed technology providors the DVLA saw fit to work with.  If every customer was checked in full, that would require to pass the cost onto the customer, increasing your car rental costs, and right now the industry is being squeezed by price, so not a straight forward thing.

Technology is also going into cars that would enable a company to montior how the car is being driven, where and at what speed.  it isn't being used for those purposes but the potential is there, but you have GDPR, data protection and human rights regulations screaming out at you.  It's a much bigger topic.  We can do all of this and more.....and what?  End up like China where freedom & rights are a joke.

Marky Legs wrote:

The only thing these black boxes do is to control the top speed of drivers in known speed limit areas.  If the speed limt has been changed temporarily (roadworks for example) it is not registered.

Also, it does not stop the ever increasing "I'll ignore that red light because I won't be caught" attitude!

So I don't see how it will improve safety other than control the top speed of those who do speed and get caught.  All other aspects of bad driving (aggression, middle lane hogging, jumping red lights, driving too close, parking on pavements etc etc) will simply continue to happen and get worse.

The solution is more cameras and / or more police on the roads

Don't they also use an accelerometer to measure heavy acceleration, braking, and cornering?

Perhaps they don't solve every problem but a partial solution to any problem is usually better than no solution.

portec wrote:

Don't they also use an accelerometer to measure heavy acceleration, braking, and cornering?

Perhaps they don't solve every problem but a partial solution to any problem is usually better than no solution.

I thought black boxes in cars  just measured G forces. The phone apps use GPS tracking as well.

kil0ran wrote:

Telematics is interesting in how they incentivise good driver behaviour. A mate's son has just passed his test, he gets extra mileage added to his allowance on a monthly basis if he scores well on speeding. Sounds great but then there's the clause where they'll cancel his insurance if he drives 30mph over the speed limit. Not sure if that's a sliding scale at lower speeds but what sort of message does that send?

It sends the message not to speed.

rct wrote:

kil0ran wrote:

Telematics is interesting in how they incentivise good driver behaviour. A mate's son has just passed his test, he gets extra mileage added to his allowance on a monthly basis if he scores well on speeding. Sounds great but then there's the clause where they'll cancel his insurance if he drives 30mph over the speed limit. Not sure if that's a sliding scale at lower speeds but what sort of message does that send?

 

It sends the message not to speed.

It sends the message that driving 29mph over the speed limit is OK because all it means is he'll lose mileage bonuses that he doesn't currently need. That's how my mate's kid has interpreted it. Now if there was a market where he could sell earned miles that might work...

burtthebike wrote:

Until we have 100% driverless cars, human error by drivers will continue to kill thousands a year, and maim tens of thousands more. 

Be careful what you wish for, there's plenty of reasonably founded speculation that the autonomous vehicle lobby will seek for segregated lanes, stealing valuable and ever-dwindling street space from human powered transport. And unlike us after some decent cycle lanes worth a damn, they've got existing funds and the elusive promise of £b for the economy to sway councils' decisions and get protective legislation in place. 

ROOTminus1 wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

Until we have 100% driverless cars, human error by drivers will continue to kill thousands a year, and maim tens of thousands more. 

Be careful what you wish for, there's plenty of reasonably founded speculation that the autonomous vehicle lobby will seek for segregated lanes, stealing valuable and ever-dwindling street space from human powered transport. And unlike us after some decent cycle lanes worth a damn, they've got existing funds and the elusive promise of £b for the economy to sway councils' decisions and get protective legislation in place. 

"... there's plenty of reasonably founded speculation that the autonomous vehicle lobby will seek for segregated lanes..."

No there isn't.  Driverless vehicles will need less space because they will be following the lane, not weaving around like humans do, so they'll need less space.

But please feel free to continue your scaremongering.

RobD wrote:

I think a better idea to the insurance thing would be something that goes on your numberplate outlining the type of offence, eg as symbol to show you've been caught speeding, one for texting while driving, one for drink driving. the shame would probably be enough to stop a number of people, especially those with personalised plates, wouldnt want that ruined with something that shows you've been caught drinking and speeding, it'd help other motorists and the police identify who to look out for too.

You would get some people who'd make that a collectable thing, and want to get the whole set 

RobD wrote:

I think a better idea to the insurance thing would be something that goes on your numberplate outlining the type of offence, eg as symbol to show you've been caught speeding, one for texting while driving, one for drink driving. the shame would probably be enough to stop a number of people, especially those with personalised plates, wouldnt want that ruined with something that shows you've been caught drinking and speeding, it'd help other motorists and the police identify who to look out for too.

There speaks the voice of someone who has a car for each member of the household.

For the rest of us who have several people using the one vehicle then that would not work

Grahamd wrote:

I doubt there would be enough black boxes for all drivers with points, let alone engineers to fit them. Making them mandatory for any driving offence not covered by a fixed penalty notice would appear entirely reasonable though.

Nothing to fit, no engineers needed. One of the UK's largest insurers, Aviva, do this through a phone app.