A group of cyclists kicked off a train at Settle station this weekend have called for common sense application of the rules relating to the number of bikes permitted on trains. The Craven Herald reports that around a dozen cyclists who wanted to travel with their bikes for the start of the Three Peaks Cyclo-Cross were ushered off a train by a guard who cited health and safety concerns.
One of the group, Kevin Harrison, said that they had only wanted to travel one stop down the line.
"There were about 30 people getting on the train in an orderly and considerate fashion when the guard started running up and down the train ordering the cyclists to get off. We then had the ludicrous situation where the guard is getting cyclists off at one end of the carriages, while other cyclists are getting on at the other. It was chaotic and farcical.
"Then she was scuttling down the other end and the same thing was happening. She was saying it was for health and safety reasons, though it is difficult to see what those could have been.”
Northern Rail was named Operator of the Year at the 2014 National Cycle Rail Awards for its role in the Tour de France Grand Départ. However, Harrison said the experience gave a very negative impression and that the line needed to cater for all passengers.
A spokeswoman said that Northern Rail trains were able to accommodate two bikes and that space was allocated on a first come, first served basis. Harrison, however, said that there was a lack of common sense in the application of the rules.
The same complaint has been made by a Nottingham cyclist who suffered a similar incident on his way to work last week. Roger Whiting was told the CrossCountry train he was trying to board could take no more than three bikes, but Whiting told the Nottingham Post that as the carriage was half-empty, there had been no need for the conductor to stick so strictly to the rules.
"The conductor said, 'No, I have already got two bikes on board and I can only have three.' There was a young lady with a bike as well so I let her on instead. I then find out the next train would only allow two bikes so, knowing I might be unlucky again, I got on my bike and cycled.”
Whiting points out that he had to buy a ticket in advance with no certainty that he would be allowed on the train. "You have to buy a ticket before you board the train anyway – then what are you supposed to do if you see more than two or three bikes? Leave the bike behind?"
36 thoughts on “Three Peaks cyclists angry after train “fiasco””
The capacity for bikes on
The capacity for bikes on Rail transport is a joke. I remember looking to book a train to west Wales over a month in advance and was told then that the bike reservation for the train was full. This was in the middle of the day on a Friday during term time, hardly peak time. Hey, as long as the shareholders are happy, who cares about the state of trains for any passengers!
Then again, if the picture
Then again, if the picture shown was taken on board the train and of the incident in question, I can actually see how H&S comes into play. If there was a major incident that necessitated an emergency evacuation (which could happen at any time and is not negated by only travelling for one stop) then I would not have liked to have been in that carriage or, a very likely scenario, having to quickly pass through it.
Bobbinogs wrote:Then again,
Its not. Thats a photo from the blog entry about the Dunwich Dynamo, and how friendly that local rail company was in letting people get back to points west.
Basic point, the conductor
Basic point, the conductor can neither touch you or your bike. The only authority the have is that which give them.
Having said the above I have also been in a similar situation where while the conductor acknowledged they could not force me from the train, he could however hold the train in the station until I got off. I disembarked to avoid being disembowelled by hostile fellow passengers.
Potiriadis wrote:Basic point,
This person is not a lawyer, and you should never, ever take legal advice from somebody on the internet; particularly someone telling you “X has no authority to do Y; they act as though they do, but only have it if you consent”.
Google “freemen on the land”; these people are a serious problem. And the world would be a better place if they *were* disembowelled.
surely, we just need to set
surely, we just need to set up a petition to parliament and encourage as many people to focus around a simple solution like:
we the people want a train service fit for 2015
we want carriages to provide:
*4 clugs fitted to allow bikes to be stored vertically
*allen keys to be provided so handlebars and stems can be twisted to reduce the footprint of the bikes
seems fair
Similar farce at Lancaster
Similar farce at Lancaster station prior to last years C2C in a day sportive.
20+ cyclists all trying to get on the only train to Seascale, conductor adamant that only 2 were allowed.
I’d already anticipated the issue and had zipped my bike into a huge bag, this apparently miraculous operation transforms said device from a bike into merely “luggage” at which point you are allowed to take it on the train……
Still it could be worse…Northern trains have for years decided that no bikes are allowed at all on trains between Blackpool and Manchester during the Christies charity ride weekend.
Now if it were me, I’d have twigged that 5000 riders looking for a lift back to Manchester might be a nice little earner rather than an inconvenience……. but what do I know?
Kestevan wrote:
I’d already
Brilliant 🙂 British intuition and barking mad laws all rolled into one!
I think the problem is that the network is pretty close to capacity most of the time so it is not really that easy for an operator to request enought extra services to accommodate 5,000 riders and bikes. We have a lot of people in the UK and our infrastructure struggles to cope even when things are going ok. Just look at how quickly one broken down car on a motorway can quickly cause 10 miles of tailbacks!
Bobbinogs wrote:enought extra
The idea of providing a service for 5,000 riders and bikes for one night of the year is utterly laughable. The amount of rolling stock you’d need to provide would be enormous.
Much as the bikes on rail
Much as the bikes on rail thing is a joke in this country, the guard/conductor is only covering their own arse, and you certainly can’t blame them for that.
And to be honest, if you didn’t know of any ‘special arrangements’ ahead of a major(ish) event you should have presumed there’d be no room anyway.
The most ridiculous thing with this though is, presuming this was from Settle to the start in Helwith Bridge, that’s a total journey of … 4.3 miles!. By the time you’ve faffed about with trains you could probably have ridden there anyway. Think of it as a warm up!
used to have these things
used to have these things called Guard’s Vans…
Plenty of room back then…
And they even used to lay on cyclist specials with extra space for expeditions into the country…
Paul_C wrote:used to have
I travelled on Southwest Trains between Bristol and Swansea a couple of years ago and they had a separate carriage with a bike rack that held 6/7 bikes and space to fit a few more. Surprised other rail companies haven’t used the same, the bike storage on Cross Country Trains is particularly pathetic in my opinion!!!
Paul_C wrote:used to have
I think most rail companies are wanting to do away with having guards/conductors, let alone guards vans. Book your journey six months in advance, or pay double using our whizzy smartphone app if you’re such a dope as to travel spontaneously on the day. Spontaneous, but no smartphone? F**k off then, not our problem.
I’m in two minds on this. As
I’m in two minds on this. As much as I’d like it to be much easier to take bikes on trains, playing devil’s advocate for a minute it’s not an easy case to argue. I’m not convinced that if the operators started laying on bike-only carriages that could hold dozens of bikes that they’d ever be anything like full apart from for extremely rare events like this, and as vonhelmet and Bobbinogs point out it’s never going to make any sense to have that sort of spare capacity.
Basically the network isn’t set up for lots of bikes and objectively, should it be, really?
Whether the guards should show a bit more discretion is another story though!
I kind of agree with Chuck
I kind of agree with Chuck but not completely. Arriva trains, south west trains and a few other companies only have space for two bikes and that can be fully booked. If you are a family of four, two adults, two children, then you can’t go on theses trains (well you can, most conductors I’ve met are quite helpful).
There are ways of making adaptable space that can be used for multiple purposes. The time when the commentators above are mentioning that they are looking to take their bikes are outside peak hours (weekends mainly). Restricting bikes at peak hours when trains are packed makes sense but making space available at weekends would be a great help.
PS Does any one else feel uncomfortable leaving their bike unattended on the intercity trains? Every time I use one I get told off for locking my bike to the train.
esayers wrote:PS Does any one
Yeah, I haven’t done it for a while but it always made me a bit nervous, and I’d always sit where I could keep an eye on it regardless of the seat reservation.
Chuck wrote:esayers wrote:PS
Agreed, always sit where I can see it. The only issue I had was somebody once locked their bike to mine on the train bike rack! I wasn’t particularly happy to get to my stop then have to run down the carriages to find who it was that had locked their bike up in order to get mine off.
‘Angry’ is the wrong word.
‘Angry’ is the wrong word. Petulant is what you need here:-
(of a person or their manner) childishly sulky or bad-tempered
As in “they were petulant when their lack of planning prevented them from boarding a train”
What? When? Where? How
What? When? Where? How much?
If these are agreed and accepted by both parties then a contract has been entered into.
So …
“Please convey me and my bicycle on such-and-such a time and date from Station A to Station B.”
“Certainly, that will be so many pounds, shillings and pence.”
“Thank you!”
This is a Contract! It is for them to fulfill their side, you have already fulfilled yours by paying them. This is their problem not yours and no amount of ‘small print’ and ridiculous/unfair terms & conditions can change this. They should not have entered into a contract if they connot complete.
I wonder what would happen if a good Barrister were to take this all the way?
levermonkey wrote:What? When?
Ts and Cs and small print change everything, because the contract is not “I give you money and you convey me and my bike” it is “I give you money and you convey me and my bike subject to lengthy terms and conditions”. If you book a ticket and the contract – the terms of which will be available to you before you agree – says that they may not be able to carry your bike for some reason and you agree then you are agreeing to bear the risk that they can’t carry your bike.
This just reminded me of the
This just reminded me of the slightly farcical time I tried to get on a train (from it’s departure point i.e. where the train ‘starts’ from) with a bike from a main station one evening.
I read the train operators information no their website which said “No bikes on London bound trains at these times”. Fair enough, the train I want isn’t going to London.
So I go to get on the train at the station and am prevented from doing so, pointed at a propped up notice board reading ‘No bikes between these hours’. Despite trying to let the ‘really’ helpful’ guy at the ticket barrier know this wasn’t what was stated on the website there was no dice.
The ridiculous part? A quick (and I mean quick, it was due to leave in a couple of minutes) sprint to the first stop along, about a mile and a half away, and I can get on the same train without trouble.
Dickheads.
I agree with much of the
I agree with much of the above. The lack of certainty in being able to book ( or not ) a bike on our trains is crazy. It has caused us numerous problems in the past, and yet we have also had excellent service at times. It has made us think twice, and more about using the train.
Yet in Europe we have never booked in advance, never had any problem and always plenty of space.
Is there a peculiar English problem we are not aware of?
Paul_C wrote:
used to have
Paul_C wrote:
used to have these things called Guard’s Vans…
Plenty of room back then…
And they even used to lay on cyclist specials with extra space for expeditions into the country…
I travelled on Southwest Trains between Bristol and Swansea a couple of years ago and they had a separate carriage with a bike rack that held 6/7 bikes and space to fit a few more. Surprised other rail companies haven’t used the same, the bike storage on Cross Country Trains is particularly pathetic in my opinion!!!
Very impressive! GWR’s HSTs have a guard’s van with something similar but unfortunately most of them are due to be retired when the line is electrified.
As for XC, more is possible. Mine was one of 5 (five!) bikes on a XC Voyager a couple of weekends ago: three in the dangly spaces and two propped against the luggage rack next to them. Fortunately the two proppers were only travelling from Newport to Bristol. The train was totally rammed anyway (who had the bright idea of scheduling the rugby world cup to coincide with students returning to college?) but this did not seem to cause any problems.
Quote:I think the problem is
That said, most of these events take place on a Sunday, when there are considerably less trains in use, and therefore, more capacity available. Still needs a ‘dedicated’ guards van type thing though I suppose.
This year myself and my
This year myself and my girlfriend did a reasonable amount of train travel with one bike each.
Although the different train operators were often limited to 3 bikes in total we found it to be generally very positive so long as you planned in advance. They do say your not guaranteed to get your bike on the train, however the conductors would enforce the rules, they seemed to know somebody further down the line required the spaces so was always clear when we needed them.
I’m all for more bike spaces, but if you know in advance that there are only 3 spots and your going to a well-attended event then either make sure you are the one with the bike booked or take a car.
Ahhh yes ! The answer to this
Ahhh yes ! The answer to this problem is to vote for a bloke who is passionate about cycling and railways. That’ll be a vote for Jez then won’t it ! ! !
Batchy wrote:Ahhh yes ! The
Yes, of course. This will be the first thing he does when he’s elected, ignoring the fact that the country hasn’t voted in a left-wing government since the 70s. In the meantime we’d all better get used to the not fit for purpose system we currently have.
WDG wrote:Batchy wrote:Ahhh
Well if people keep voting for neolib fascist governments that let money grabbing privateers run our services, what do people expect ! Cyclists are just a bunch of smelly plebs, any Tory will tell you that !
Common sense from these
Common sense from these cyclist would suggest that it isn’t practical to take all these bikes on one train.
They know that, so why create a scene and delays for other passengers.
Should have made sensible arrangements if u ask me.
I looked into using trains to
I looked into using trains to get to the start and from the finish of my recent LEJOG trip, but figured out that it would be quicker, more convenient, and more reliable to hire a car one way at each end, and even then it wasn’t going to be much more expensive.
In order to get the train I would have had to cycle to Newark (about 30 miles) because whilst there is a closer station (Metheringham) I couldn’t book my bike onto that train, then the main line to London, change trains in London, including riding from one station to another in central London, on a loaded touring bike, onto another train, then if I remember correctly there would have been another change. To achieve this at all would have meant I needed the whole day (I actually travelled on Friday afternoon after working in the morning).
The return leg would have been even worse, and would probably not have been possible at all within one day, so would have involved another overnight stop.
Having to buy your ticket for travel before you know whether you are going to be able to transport your bike is a rip off, especially when there are so few spaces, which can fill up so quickly, it effectively means you cannot travel on a train with your bike, but it avoids the rail companies admitting that they have a defacto ban on travelling with bikes.
Having said all that, to my mind the conductor in this case made the right call, as that many bikes would have blocked the emergency exit (the aisle), and quite possibly if there was only one or two extra bikes then a blind eye might have been turned. The problem is with the capacity for bikes, and not the enforcement of the rule.
muppets should have road to
muppets should have road to the start. Old school. young riders are soft
I skipped 2 trains this
I skipped 2 trains this morning due to the number of cycling commuters using them.
I travel from Doncaster to Meadowhall.
The first was a Northern service, 07:04. A rattler (Pacer). 6 cyclists and a wheelchair user trying to get on.
3 of us cycle commuters decided to try our luck on the next service at 07:35.
This was a Transpennine service. By the time it arrived there were 7 cycling commuters trying for 2 spaces.
I wasn’t even going to try and force my way on.
I ended up getting the 07:39 Northern slow service made up of 2 rattlers (Pacers). 3 cycling commuters going for 4 cycle spaces. Pure heaven.
I was only 40 minutes late for work.
Now I don’t have far to cycle when I get to Meadowhall so why don’t I leave my bike at Doncaster? Security. The bike rack is tucked away in an area where thieves would have a field day. It is also exposed with no protection from the elements. Virgin (the operators of the station) have plenty of free “retail” units that could be given over as dedicated secure, undercover cycle storage but hey, that won’t make them as much money as another Costa Coffee.
We need action on railways to ensure we are better looked after too, as well as on the roads.
We recently took a holiday in
We recently took a holiday in Shropshire – yes it has been a tough year and my son and I wanted to go by train with our bikes meaning a nice 10 mile ride at the other end. I tried to book our bikes on the train a week in advance to no avail – they didn’t take bookings for the first half but did the second. Got from Crewe to Shrewsbury with no problem, first ones at the station for the next train. Another bike had turned up and unbeknown to me the second train reduced from 4 to 2 carriages, the other cyclist was going 8 stops, myself 1 so obviously I suggested they got on first.
Then the carnage commenced, it was ‘caravan swap over day’ all along the north Wales coast, passengers with 15 suitcases of junk the norm. The bike area was full of people standing, the other cyclist managed to cram through the door and lift his bike and hold it but get no further.
We were at the next door down, my son (13) had done similar to the other chap, a chav was trying to push his 6 children on the train then moan at me for my bike being half on, half off. The doors attempted to close and my bike was the only thing blocking them – and several children being abandoned on a train. A guard was trying to pull me away from the doors telling me I couldn’t put my bike on that carriage – I told him to clear the carriage that I had a reservation for, he refused. A fracas ensued with Chav dad in which he threatened to kill me, I offered him the first punch for free.
Fortunately there was a disabled toilet, I pressed the door and it opened, we wiggled my son’s and my bike into there and the train only left the station an additional 5 minutes late. Chav dad didn’t look too comfortable as the 4 eyed guy in lycra stood over him for the next 20 minutes, about 6 inches taller and twice as fit.
I’m not sure why I have shared this, maybe a moral of the story; our train system is a joke whether you plan or not, jobsworth train staff have no balls for either the rules or to see through an argument, and chavs need shooting in the crotch!
That’ll be Arriva Trains
That’ll be Arriva Trains Wales who like Cross Country are owned by the German state railway company, Deutsche Bahn. They often run trains containing only two carriages to and from a major port, Holyhead. The area for holding cycles usually says quite clearly that cycles have priority over luggage. That should have been pointed out to the guard. If the train was dangerously overcrowded then that should be reported (and recorded on video) to the train company and the Transport Police amongst others.
Worst experience I had was
Worst experience I had was with with GNER on the Edinburgh to Kings Cross line. Southbound trains were packed because of flooding on the West Coast line as were the Glasgow to Edinburgh trains.
Another cyclist & myself only just got to the train, we followed a Scot into the (empty) Guards Van to park our bikes & were promptly kicked off because we didn’t have bike tickets but the Scot we followed wasn’t even asked for a bike ticket. All due to a racist Guard who didn’t like the English, spoilt a really nice week in Scotland.
Indeed Mark, the dreaded
Indeed Mark, the dreaded Arriva, Birmingham to Shrewsbury with 4 carriages, Shrewsbury to North Wales with 2.
The guard was categorically told as he was trying to pull me away from the door, he took the view “what do you expect me to do?”
Transport Police were present also and were very non-committal. They asked me to move and asked them to file a report for a lost child in that case. They gave up.
Suffice to say if cattle were being herded in such a manner it would be against the law!