Reverting from discs, to callipers...

Indeed:
https://road.cc/content/review/90569-trp-spyre-mechanical-disc-brake

Thanks. I'm happy to agree with that review. I was lucky with my Vitus gravel bike- I bought it and it had Spyres. I had no experience with disc brakes, so I did not appreciate in advance the advantages of dual piston.

mbrads72 wrote:

My hydraulic Shimano discs have required far more fettling than any other set up I have. And the seals have just failed on my 105 caliper after 2500 miles, so as they're not serviceable it's a warranty claim (13 months old). And I can't find any stock in the country so now...?

I also have 2 bikes running cable discs with Juin Tech hybrid calipers. The braking is nearly as strong and the maintenance is simpler, especially running full length non-compressing outers. One is a tandem, and on the 203mm discs there is ample stopping power.

I do cringe a little at the noises from brake pad on rim on the other bikes in the wet, but well set up they're mostly close to both disc set ups, and the easiest and cheapest to look after. At least, until I wear through a rim!

There are pros and cons to all the systems. None win hands down, which isn't what the industry would have you think.

I've also upgraded my mechanical discs to juin-tech hybrids and they are a lot better that the trp spyers they replaced, which were ok.

I don't particularly like the feel of them essentially, the lever needs a longer throw before it starts biting hard and maximum braking isn't any harder than on my rim brakes. My "best" rim setup is Bora wheels with AC3 brake tracks, one finger braking gives me easy subtle modulation and a sharp bite is there whenever I want it, I need to grab a handful to get the same stopping power on my Potenza discs. I don't like riding the discs in the wet because of the noise, even a cold humid day leads to squeals from condensation on the rotors, I have to start braking far earlier just to scrub the system a little in order to get braking forces instead of creating noise. Whenever I go through a puddle the scratchy, gritty noises emanate for a km or two until the contaminate grinds off, until the next bit of water at least. I have a bike with old Boras, the rims with a glass smooth brake track that's vague enough in the dry let alone the wet - I prefer to ride that in the rain even if the braking performance is borderline dangerous, the only thing stopping me is cleaning afterwards. I'm a good mechanic, I've been working on bikes for a long time, I've bled brakes on cars and motorcycles but bicycle systems are just a headache, the tolerances are too tight. I've spent days working on my discs to minimise it's flaws, I actually need to get yet more air out of the front brake line as it's gone soft, messing around with oils and syringes isn't much fun really. 

Nick T wrote:

I don't particularly like the feel of them essentially, the lever needs a longer throw before it starts biting hard and maximum braking isn't any harder than on my rim brakes. My "best" rim setup is Bora wheels with AC3 brake tracks, one finger braking gives me easy subtle modulation and a sharp bite is there whenever I want it, I need to grab a handful to get the same stopping power on my Potenza discs. I don't like riding the discs in the wet because of the noise, even a cold humid day leads to squeals from condensation on the rotors, I have to start braking far earlier just to scrub the system a little in order to get braking forces instead of creating noise. Whenever I go through a puddle the scratchy, gritty noises emanate for a km or two until the contaminate grinds off, until the next bit of water at least. I have a bike with old Boras, the rims with a glass smooth brake track that's vague enough in the dry let alone the wet - I prefer to ride that in the rain even if the braking performance is borderline dangerous, the only thing stopping me is cleaning afterwards. I'm a good mechanic, I've been working on bikes for a long time, I've bled brakes on cars and motorcycles but bicycle systems are just a headache, the tolerances are too tight. I've spent days working on my discs to minimise it's flaws, I actually need to get yet more air out of the front brake line as it's gone soft, messing around with oils and syringes isn't much fun really. 

My Dura Ace levers are adjustable for reach and bite point. And I've bled them and not had to do it again. Sounds like a problem with your Potenza set up.

Thanks for the tip

It's strange how the experience differs amongst cyclists. Beyond the initial set up, I have not had to touch my hydraulic brakes once in well over a year, and they work fabulously. So I struggle to see your "maintenance, performance, convenience" side of things.

Previously I had cantilevers, and they were shite. Before that I had sidepulls, and they were lopsided. Stretched cables, worn blocks and rims smeared in a filthy grinding paste, really what's not to like! And I think "the industry just trying to get you to buy stuff" is a little tired now. Of course they do! So how do you suggest that is an incentive to peddle rubbish?

Good for you

I dont think mechanical disc brakes are that bad,if anything I'm looking to convert my rim brake bike to discs,because all the problems the OP reports on discs are exactly what I experience with rim blocks.

But you can get pad rub just by having a skewer tightened too much, or not on the mechanical ones having the pads properly adjusted, you'll find different compounds of pads give vastly different feel and feedback. No ones ever claimed discs can avoid getting wet or contaminated, ride through a puddle you will have a gravelly rough noise on first brake application,but it quickly goes and cleans up and the benefit is you arent wearing rims out when you do that. And the claimed performance is often from hydraulic disc comparisons.

Alot of disc brake issues imo are just about getting used to them, they arent rim brakes they do work differently, it took me best part of 6 months and a change of pads to feel comfortable with them and learn how to set them up properly.

I've had rim, mechanical disc and hydraulic disc bikes. Rim brakes on alloy rims were fine with good quality pads. However, that grinding sound and black paste in winter was never good and ultimately grinds away your rims. Unless you have a good quality wheel/ hub it often doesn't make financial sense to re-rim the wheel (usually with new spokes). If you ride a lot, especially in winter, then rim brakes are not ideal.

So I tried disc brakes by way of mechanical discs first. BB5 calipers. Worked 'ok' and saved my rims from wear in winter (only fitted to my winter bike). However they constantly needed adjustment to work optimally, much more so than rim brakes. The BB5 only moves one pad on brake application, the other is fixed so you have to adjust it manually as it wears. The adjustment would easily seize up in winter conditions. Overall, as I was doing the maintenance myself and don't mind fettling, they were worth it, but they didn't have great 'bite' and power, so the wet braking compared to rim brakes wasn't significantly better.

Then I tried hydraulic disc brakes when I built a new summer bike. Admittedly they were top end Shimano and the performance difference was like night and day. Set up properly and kept clean the performance, bite, modulation etc were all fantastic. Yes they could 'tinker' after riding through a puddle, which is just sand/ grit getting washed between pad and rotor. A quick application of the brake usually removes that. 

I upgraded the winter bike to 105 hydraulic disc on the back of this experience and the performance was much improved, especially in the wet. It's not as good as Dura Ace but certainly significantly better than rim or cable operated disc, especially in the wet. I was getting squeal, which is an oft mentioned down side, but using Morgan Blue Brake Silencer Paste on the back of the pads has just about eliminated that.

The maintenance is different, but not difficult, and certainly much less than the mechanical discs. Removing the pads and cleaning around the piston seals periodically using cotton buds and isopropyl alcohol, cleaning the disc rotors with a clean cloth and the same alcohol after every wash helps prevent pad contamination and flushing through with new brake fluid every year or two keeps them working as designed.

Pads wear but not noticeably faster than rim brakes to me - I've worn soft, high performance rim brake pads out in one week in the mountains before. Disc pads are actually easier and quicker to change than rim pads. Positioning a disc calliper to prevent rub can be a bit tricky, but usually only done once - changing the pads shouldn't affect the alignment. It's not really much more tricky then setting the height, angle and toe in of rim pads for optimal braking, depending on your rim brake type, you can have to do this every time you change them (if changing cartridges rather than just pads).

I have only changed one pair of disc rotors in 5 years of riding discs, and they were upgraded to Freeza rotors which dissipate heat much better (I did experience fade on one overheating rotor/ caliper once). With high winter mileages you can wear a rim out in much less time.

Hydraulic disc brakes undoubtedly offer greater braking modulation and therefore performance in the wet compared to rim and mechanical disc, even more so if you have carbon rims. Whether you see the same difference, or can justify it, in performance in the dry, especially over a descent rim brake set up is debatable. The benefit of not causing any wear on any rim, especially on more expensive carbon rims can surely not be in doubt.

So for me, I'm more than happy with hydraulic disc over rim or mechanical disc brakes. Not everyone will see it the same way... but I wouldn't go back.

PP