[tommyraleigh]

“Why I refuse to follow the law while cycling”… https://www.irishtimes.com/business/work/pilita-clark-why-i-refuse-to-follow-the-law-while-cycling-1.3478087

I don’t know about this, she’s got a point but on the other hand should we be abiding by the rules to the letter to stop getting any aggro? On the fence… 

Topic

[Jimmy Ray Will]

Htc wrote:

crazy-legs wrote:

Fish_n_Chips wrote:

Highway Code should be followed to protect you and other road users including pedestrians.

Idiots giving the rest of us a bad name.

Did you not read any of the above? This idea of collective responsibility, of “giving the rest of us a bad name” needs to be countered every time. What someone else does on a bike is not my fault, my responsibility or my problem. When another driver breaks a law, that does not reflect on me as a driver. When a customer steals something from a shop, that does not reflect on me as a customer.

So please, if you’re thinking that “gives others a bad name” argument, go away and revise your arguments because you’re wrong.

… In your opinion!

 

It’s not an opinion… its out and out wrong. Its only the context that muddies the water in this example. Because we are enthusiasts we feel a sense of shared interest, a bond as such… therefore we maybe do feel some collective harmony / responsibility. 

But, and its a big but, its as relevant as race, sexual preference / orientation, religious beliefs. Women will always have a natural affinity with other women, but I am sure no woman wants and would accept being judged on another woman’s conduct. 

And, do you know what, there is plenty of legilstation out there to ensure that society does not do this. Just like there is legislation to stop up prejudicing against race, religion etc. 

Yes, it absolutely still happens, but no, it is absolutely not acceptable, and should absolutely be challenged whenever it does happen. 

Do not dough your caps to the media (who are only interested in selling advertising to get rich), and do not give in to the mindset of the ignorant plebs. 

Collective responsibility is a concept that needs to be challenged each and every time it raises its dirty little head. 

[Jimmy Ray Will]

ClubSmed wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

Again, this is a somewhat tenuous link with cycling being like a ‘gateway drug’ into becoming a dangerous driver. I just don’t agree that people behave like that and virtually everone modifies their behaviour (sometimes better, sometimes worse) when driving compared to walking/cycling/surfing etc.

However, I am on the ‘guilty’ side of the fence, so we’re unlikely to end up agreeing on this, but I hope to have given some insight into why some cyclists behave like they do.

I am not suggesting that cycling is a gateway drug into becoming a dangerous driver.

I am just considering that over 80% of cyclists are also drivers and that it’s not hard to imagine that a disregard for road rules stays with the individual regardless of mode of transport they employ.

There was a post by someone on here not so long ago that said they it took them a while after commuting by car over winter to adjust the mindset back to cycling mentality in the spring.

But you are assuming this disregard for road rules is done without consideration.

The reality is that it rarely is. People don’t always ride through pedestrian crossings because they once rode through a pedestrian crossing. People speeding in 30mph zones, don’t tend to drive at 100mph in those 30mph zones. 

The rule breaking tends to be measured and generally considered. 

yes there are exceptions, but generally speaking, most people think about what they are doing and do it having weighed the risks. 

So I appreciate your point, but I don’t think someone will necessarily copy behaviours between vehicles. 

 

[ClubSmed]

hawkinspeter wrote:

Again, this is a somewhat tenuous link with cycling being like a ‘gateway drug’ into becoming a dangerous driver. I just don’t agree that people behave like that and virtually everone modifies their behaviour (sometimes better, sometimes worse) when driving compared to walking/cycling/surfing etc.

However, I am on the ‘guilty’ side of the fence, so we’re unlikely to end up agreeing on this, but I hope to have given some insight into why some cyclists behave like they do.

I am not suggesting that cycling is a gateway drug into becoming a dangerous driver.

I am just considering that over 80% of cyclists are also drivers and that it’s not hard to imagine that a disregard for road rules stays with the individual regardless of mode of transport they employ.

There was a post by someone on here not so long ago that said they it took them a while after commuting by car over winter to adjust the mindset back to cycling mentality in the spring.

[hawkinspeter]

ClubSmed wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

ClubSmed wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

The ultimate goal is to have as many people travelling swiftly and safely to where they want to go and I think that getting as many people onto bikes as possible is part of the solution. Remember, every idiot on a bike is an idiot not in a car.

More people on bikes is great goal to aim for. The thing that is stopping most from getting on a bike is concerns over safety. It is possible that people on bicycles not following the rules are a part of what is causing this sense of cycling not being safe.

It is possible that for every 1 non rule following cyclist out there, more are put off from picking up a bike for safety fears.

It is also possible that this is not the case, but I believe that belief that any cyclist on the road is heading in the right direction is not necessarily the right one.

If, however, you are suggesting that an idiot on a bike is preferable to that same idiot in a car so it is forgivable I would dissagree. If rule breaking on a bicycle is transfered to the car when that person changes mode of transport then the issue definately needs to be addressed whilst they are a cyclist and of little danger than when they are behind the wheel of a death machine.

That seems a bit of a weak argument, though I do get what your trying to get across.

If people are copying me, then they won’t be driving and even if they are driving, there’s scant evidence to suggest that the same behaviour carries across from cycling to driving.

I think it’s more likely that there’s personality types that will break rules on a bike and maybe that same personality type will become dangerous if they drive. My main driving experience has been with versions of Gran Turismo and I have shocked myself with some of the maneouvres that I do (e.g. deliberately crashing into other cars to scrub speed off for the corners). However, in real life, I do try to be considerate of other traffic and I think that I have a very good level of awareness of traffic. (I did get surprised the other day to be overtaken at high speed by a couple on a tandem, but then they were very fast and very silent).

Exactly, but if ” there’s personality types that will break rules on a bike and maybe that same personality type will become dangerous if they drive” then if we ignore that behaviour because it’s on a bicycle we are just allowing it to happen later (and with potentially more devastating ramifications) when the change mode of transport to a car.

To take a spiderman analogy, it’s a bit like Peter Parker letting  a burglar get away and as a result his Uncle Ben ends up being killed by the same person.

I’d rather tackle the problem before it grows into the larger issue

Again, this is a somewhat tenuous link with cycling being like a ‘gateway drug’ into becoming a dangerous driver. I just don’t agree that people behave like that and virtually everone modifies their behaviour (sometimes better, sometimes worse) when driving compared to walking/cycling/surfing etc.

However, I am on the ‘guilty’ side of the fence, so we’re unlikely to end up agreeing on this, but I hope to have given some insight into why some cyclists behave like they do.

[ClubSmed]

hawkinspeter wrote:

ClubSmed wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

The ultimate goal is to have as many people travelling swiftly and safely to where they want to go and I think that getting as many people onto bikes as possible is part of the solution. Remember, every idiot on a bike is an idiot not in a car.

More people on bikes is great goal to aim for. The thing that is stopping most from getting on a bike is concerns over safety. It is possible that people on bicycles not following the rules are a part of what is causing this sense of cycling not being safe.

It is possible that for every 1 non rule following cyclist out there, more are put off from picking up a bike for safety fears.

It is also possible that this is not the case, but I believe that belief that any cyclist on the road is heading in the right direction is not necessarily the right one.

If, however, you are suggesting that an idiot on a bike is preferable to that same idiot in a car so it is forgivable I would dissagree. If rule breaking on a bicycle is transfered to the car when that person changes mode of transport then the issue definately needs to be addressed whilst they are a cyclist and of little danger than when they are behind the wheel of a death machine.

That seems a bit of a weak argument, though I do get what your trying to get across.

If people are copying me, then they won’t be driving and even if they are driving, there’s scant evidence to suggest that the same behaviour carries across from cycling to driving.

I think it’s more likely that there’s personality types that will break rules on a bike and maybe that same personality type will become dangerous if they drive. My main driving experience has been with versions of Gran Turismo and I have shocked myself with some of the maneouvres that I do (e.g. deliberately crashing into other cars to scrub speed off for the corners). However, in real life, I do try to be considerate of other traffic and I think that I have a very good level of awareness of traffic. (I did get surprised the other day to be overtaken at high speed by a couple on a tandem, but then they were very fast and very silent).

Exactly, but if ” there’s personality types that will break rules on a bike and maybe that same personality type will become dangerous if they drive” then if we ignore that behaviour because it’s on a bicycle we are just allowing it to happen later (and with potentially more devastating ramifications) when the change mode of transport to a car.

To take a spiderman analogy, it’s a bit like Peter Parker letting  a burglar get away and as a result his Uncle Ben ends up being killed by the same person.

I’d rather tackle the problem before it grows into the larger issue

[hawkinspeter]

ClubSmed wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

The ultimate goal is to have as many people travelling swiftly and safely to where they want to go and I think that getting as many people onto bikes as possible is part of the solution. Remember, every idiot on a bike is an idiot not in a car.

More people on bikes is great goal to aim for. The thing that is stopping most from getting on a bike is concerns over safety. It is possible that people on bicycles not following the rules are a part of what is causing this sense of cycling not being safe.

It is possible that for every 1 non rule following cyclist out there, more are put off from picking up a bike for safety fears.

It is also possible that this is not the case, but I believe that belief that any cyclist on the road is heading in the right direction is not necessarily the right one.

If, however, you are suggesting that an idiot on a bike is preferable to that same idiot in a car so it is forgivable I would dissagree. If rule breaking on a bicycle is transfered to the car when that person changes mode of transport then the issue definately needs to be addressed whilst they are a cyclist and of little danger than when they are behind the wheel of a death machine.

That seems a bit of a weak argument, though I do get what your trying to get across.

If people are copying me, then they won’t be driving and even if they are driving, there’s scant evidence to suggest that the same behaviour carries across from cycling to driving.

I think it’s more likely that there’s personality types that will break rules on a bike and maybe that same personality type will become dangerous if they drive. My main driving experience has been with versions of Gran Turismo and I have shocked myself with some of the maneouvres that I do (e.g. deliberately crashing into other cars to scrub speed off for the corners). However, in real life, I do try to be considerate of other traffic and I think that I have a very good level of awareness of traffic. (I did get surprised the other day to be overtaken at high speed by a couple on a tandem, but then they were very fast and very silent).

[ClubSmed]

davel wrote:

davel wrote:

ClubSmed wrote:

crazy-legs wrote:

This idea of collective responsibility, of “giving the rest of us a bad name” needs to be countered every time. What someone else does on a bike is not my fault, my responsibility or my problem. When another driver breaks a law, that does not reflect on me as a driver. When a customer steals something from a shop, that does not reflect on me as a customer.

Having worked for a bank during the banking crisis I have experienced the wrath of people who do believe in collective responsibility. The actions of a few banks/bankers during that time being left unchecked definately gave the rest of them a bad name.

I worked for a bank then and I still do (a different one). I had zero responsibility for what some (a lot, as it turned out) bad apples did in the same industry, or, in some cases, the same (very large) bank. That morons tar us all with the same brush doesn’t validate the morons’ opinion. And that’s exactly how feeble that argument is: posters here are saying we need to do something because some morons are judgemental bellends. Behave how you want: unless you can give them brain transplants or put them through some serious education they will still be judgemental bellends. And definitely don’t use it as an excuse to preach or judge others who disagree with the collective responsibility shite.

I agree with you that we have no control over what others do, only what we do ourselves. This may or may not influence others, but we have no control over this.

I also agree that there is no collective responsibility for cyclists, though there should be a collective responsibility as humans to try and be better and more considerate to other people.

I was just trying to point out that tarring with the same brush does happen and I believe that it is naive to think otherwise. The banking crisis is a perfect example of this, so when others say that actions of the few can’t/don’t effect the mass perception of the whole of the group I believe they need to think again.

[davel]

ClubSmed wrote:

ClubSmed wrote:

crazy-legs wrote:

This idea of collective responsibility, of “giving the rest of us a bad name” needs to be countered every time. What someone else does on a bike is not my fault, my responsibility or my problem. When another driver breaks a law, that does not reflect on me as a driver. When a customer steals something from a shop, that does not reflect on me as a customer.

Having worked for a bank during the banking crisis I have experienced the wrath of people who do believe in collective responsibility. The actions of a few banks/bankers during that time being left unchecked definately gave the rest of them a bad name.

I worked for a bank then and I still do (a different one). I had zero responsibility for what some (a lot, as it turned out) bad apples did in the same industry, or, in some cases, the same (very large) bank. That morons tar us all with the same brush doesn’t validate the morons’ opinion.

And that’s exactly how feeble that argument is: posters here are saying we need to do something because some morons are judgemental bellends. Behave how you want: unless you can give them brain transplants or put them through some serious education they will still be judgemental bellends. And definitely don’t use it as an excuse to preach or judge others who disagree with the collective responsibility shite.

[ClubSmed]

crazy-legs wrote:

This idea of collective responsibility, of “giving the rest of us a bad name” needs to be countered every time. What someone else does on a bike is not my fault, my responsibility or my problem. When another driver breaks a law, that does not reflect on me as a driver. When a customer steals something from a shop, that does not reflect on me as a customer.

Having worked for a bank during the banking crisis I have experienced the wrath of people who do believe in collective responsibility. The actions of a few banks/bankers during that time being left unchecked definately gave the rest of them a bad name.

[alansmurphy]

Htc wrote:

crazy-legs wrote:

Fish_n_Chips wrote:

Highway Code should be followed to protect you and other road users including pedestrians.

Idiots giving the rest of us a bad name.

So please, if you’re thinking that “gives others a bad name” argument, go away and revise your arguments because you’re wrong.

… In your opinion!

 

… Unless you’re a moron!

 

[ClubSmed]

hawkinspeter wrote:

The ultimate goal is to have as many people travelling swiftly and safely to where they want to go and I think that getting as many people onto bikes as possible is part of the solution. Remember, every idiot on a bike is an idiot not in a car.

More people on bikes is great goal to aim for. The thing that is stopping most from getting on a bike is concerns over safety. It is possible that people on bicycles not following the rules are a part of what is causing this sense of cycling not being safe.

It is possible that for every 1 non rule following cyclist out there, more are put off from picking up a bike for safety fears.

It is also possible that this is not the case, but I believe that belief that any cyclist on the road is heading in the right direction is not necessarily the right one.

If, however, you are suggesting that an idiot on a bike is preferable to that same idiot in a car so it is forgivable I would dissagree. If rule breaking on a bicycle is transfered to the car when that person changes mode of transport then the issue definately needs to be addressed whilst they are a cyclist and of little danger than when they are behind the wheel of a death machine.

[Htc]

crazy-legs wrote:

Fish_n_Chips wrote:

Highway Code should be followed to protect you and other road users including pedestrians.

Idiots giving the rest of us a bad name.

Did you not read any of the above? This idea of collective responsibility, of “giving the rest of us a bad name” needs to be countered every time. What someone else does on a bike is not my fault, my responsibility or my problem. When another driver breaks a law, that does not reflect on me as a driver. When a customer steals something from a shop, that does not reflect on me as a customer.

So please, if you’re thinking that “gives others a bad name” argument, go away and revise your arguments because you’re wrong.

… In your opinion!

[hawkinspeter]

ClubSmed wrote:

“We but mirror the world. All the tendencies present in the outer world are to be found in the world of our body. If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. This is the divine mystery supreme. A wonderful thing it is and the source of our happiness. We need not wait to see what others do.” – Mahatma Gandhi
Or as it is commonly misrepresented “be the change you want to see in the world”
I believe in this, so because I want to be respected on the road I give others respect. I want other road users to follow the rules, so I follow the rules.
If you are not part of the solution then you are probably part of the problem
I also think that as over 80% of cyclists are said to also be car drivers and it is not hard to believe that any breaking of highway laws on the bicycle are carried into the car by those same people.

I do appreciate your view on that regarding following the rules.

Personally, I’d be more than happy to see hoards of unruly cyclists travelling safely yet not always obeying the laws. I think the problem is that the traffic laws could do with some improvement – simple things like allowing bikes to go the opposite way up one-way streets  or turning left on red lights, but with the proviso of giving way to any other traffic. I’d also go for allowing unpowered cycles through red lights when safe to do so as that can alleviate traffic congestion and can be safer for the cyclists in some conditions.

The ultimate goal is to have as many people travelling swiftly and safely to where they want to go and I think that getting as many people onto bikes as possible is part of the solution. Remember, every idiot on a bike is an idiot not in a car.

[ClubSmed]

“We but mirror the world. All

“We but mirror the world. All the tendencies present in the outer world are to be found in the world of our body. If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. This is the divine mystery supreme. A wonderful thing it is and the source of our happiness. We need not wait to see what others do.” – Mahatma Gandhi
Or as it is commonly misrepresented “be the change you want to see in the world”
I believe in this, so because I want to be respected on the road I give others respect. I want other road users to follow the rules, so I follow the rules.
If you are not part of the solution then you are probably part of the problem
I also think that as over 80% of cyclists are said to also be car drivers and it is not hard to believe that any breaking of highway laws on the bicycle are carried into the car by those same people.

[crazy-legs]

Fish_n_Chips wrote:

Highway Code should be followed to protect you and other road users including pedestrians.

Idiots giving the rest of us a bad name.

Did you not read any of the above? This idea of collective responsibility, of “giving the rest of us a bad name” needs to be countered every time. What someone else does on a bike is not my fault, my responsibility or my problem. When another driver breaks a law, that does not reflect on me as a driver. When a customer steals something from a shop, that does not reflect on me as a customer.

So please, if you’re thinking that “gives others a bad name” argument, go away and revise your arguments because you’re wrong.

[Author]

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