One argument sometimes used to counteract accusations that cyclists “don’t pay road tax” is to point out that even if vehicle excise duty applied to people on bikes, they would pay nothing, just as drivers of the least polluting motor vehicles do.
The common assumption underpinning that is that someone pedalling a bike must by definition produce lower emissions than any motor vehicle.
But a climate change researcher at Harvard University’s Keith Group has challenged the idea, and says that some cyclists may actually be more harmful to for the environment than some cars.
Specifically, graduate student Daniel Thorpe singled out cyclists who follow the Paleo Diet, which have menu plans that are focused heavily on meat and animal protein, as contributing more to global warming than someone following a different diet who drives a fuel-efficient, low-emission vehicle.
His detailed findings are in published on the Keith Group’s blog on the Harvard website. He starts by noting the energy required to power a bike – 0.2 MJ/km against a typical car driven in the US, 3.3 MJ/km, and a Toyota Prius 1.7 MJ/km.
Thorpe’s hypothesis instead uses a measure called carbon dioxide equivalents (CO2e) which enables scientists to provide a like-for-like measure of different kinds of gases based on their “Global Warming Potential” (GWP) and thereby gauge the environmental impact of complex scenarios, such as here where both mode of travel and type of diet are being compared.
As an example, 1 gram of methane, associated with livestock, is equivalent to 300 grams of carbon dioxide in terms of global warming potential, giving a reading of 300 gCO2e. Nitrous dioxide, also a factor in agriculture, has a value of 30 gCO2e. Thorpe writes:
This doesn’t matter a lot for estimating the impact of cars, where 90+% of the emissions are CO2, but it does matter for the agriculture powering a bike ride, where there are substantial emissions of N2O and CH4, which have GWP’s around 30 and 300, meaning we usually count 1 gram of CH4 emissions as equivalent to ~30 grams of CO2 emissions.
By Thorpe’s calculations, typically a car in the US will emit 300 gCO2e per kilometre driven, while a Prius emits 150 gCO2e/km. Based on average daily calorie intake of a cyclist in the US of 2,600 kcal/day he says the typical cyclist will have a reading of 130 gCO2e/km.
Someone following the Paleo Diet, however, will emit 190 gCO2e/km, “likely higher than the Prius, though the uncertainties in these estimates are large,” admits Thorpe, who adds that a vegan’s emissions will be much lower at 80 gCO2e/km.
The researcher said that his calculations suggested that two cyclists following the Paleo diet would actually do less damage to the environment than if they car-pooled.
He acknowledges that there are some qualifications, writing:
The first is that we found biking to have a surprisingly similar impact to driving on a per kilometer basis. But of course, cars enable you to travel much faster and much farther than bikes, so someone with a bike and no car almost surely has a much lower impact by virtue of covering a lot less distance. When I owned a car in rural Virginia I drove 20,000 km/yr, and now that I only own a bike in urban Cambridge, Massachusetts I bike about 1,500 km/yr.
The other qualification is that while GWP is based on a 100-year cycle, the period of radiative forcing of individual gases differs; 10 years for methane and 100 years for nitrous dioxide, but millennia for carbon dioxide.
That means that while nearly all of the impact of methane and nitrous dioxide is captured in the GWP calculation, it “ignored hundreds of years of CO2’s influence after this century.
“There are reasons to think we should care more about short-term warming, since we’ll have an easier time adapting to slower changes farther in the future, but it seems odd to completely neglect everything more than 100 years away,” Thorpe argues.
He concludes that “agricultural impacts on the environment really matter,” and that “biking has a surprisingly similar impact to driving on a per kilometre basis, and depending on your diet can cause noticeably more emissions and land use.”
He adds: “Our analysis certainly doesn’t prove that you shouldn’t do more biking instead of driving, but it does help us know more clearly the environmental impacts of making the switch.”




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111 thoughts on “Cycling can contribute more to global warming than driving, argues Harvard researcher”
A Prius may emit 150 gCO2e/km
A Prius may emit 150 gCO2e/km. It’s occupants have emissions too, even at rest.
Is the chemical and material cost of manufacture neglected in these calculations?
Jharrison5 wrote:
And apparently the car driver doesn’t take aerobic exercise. This really is an incredibly simplistic bit of arithmetic.
If you have to attribute a
If you have to attribute a funny diet to ‘cyclists’, it’s probably a sign that the research is total bollocks.
HarrogateSpa wrote:
Exactly. WTF is the Paleo Diet anyway? I’ve never heard of it.
brooksby wrote:
In four words “eat like a caveman”.
It’s the latest fad diet with a long list of rules, when most of the problem is simply that we’ve normalised heavily processed foods high in carbohydrates.
brooksby wrote:
Where have you been? Living in a cave….? Oh, hang on…
HarrogateSpa wrote:
What about all those motorists who drive in for a Big Mac or KFC ? Millions of em in USA alone ! Their meaty diet plus co2 emissions make this survey mighty suspect !
And apparently drivers do not
And apparently drivers do not eat either. Americans consumer 122 kgs of meat a year, reckon a fair few of those are at drive thru McDs.
Compare the bike to the car.. or the driver to the cyclist. Not the banana to the apple. If he wants to compare the fuels then he needs to look at the entire supply chain for fuel (research, discover, drilling, transportation, processing) not just the cost at the point at which it is burnt.
Great work from the Ed Koch
Great work from the Ed Koch school of Environmental Sciences. But I believe that Chocolate, cake, coffee and crisps are all vegetable based products. Or is a Greggs Steak bake paleo?
I knew one day it would be
I knew one day it would be proved that Alberto Contador was responsible for destroying the planet.
Because people only eat their
Because people only eat their required energy expenditure..
Who funds this shite. Some right-wing nutjob lobby no doubt.
unconstituted wrote:
Sadly, the funding seems to come from respectable sources. He seems to have cooked up this simplistic twaddle all by himself, without any prompting.
unconstituted wrote:
Much more likely to be a left wing nut job
tonyleatham wrote:
Really, how do you work that out?
unconstituted wrote:
Climate change is DEFINITELY a poster child of the left. I can’t see any right wing organisation funding any kind of research into climate change, even if the intended outcome is to demonstrate that cars are more virtuous than bikes. They’re much more likely to want to disparage the entire notion of AGW.
tonyleatham wrote:
Yeah I guess.
If you’ve been living under a rock and missed the constant right wing lobby funded research papers that have been in the press constantly for years on end.
Be serious.
Specifically, graduate
Specifically, graduate student Daniel Thorpe singled out cyclists who follow the Paleo Diet.
Presumably this also applies to pedestrians who follow the paleo diet.
So this has nothing to do with cycling, it’s to do with diet!
Wasn’t there that other idiot
Wasn’t there that other idiot that said something about cyclists breathing more? Is this the son?
Really interesting research.
Really interesting research. It just goes to show that environmental problems are wicked and there rarely are simple solutions.
I have just enrolled on the online course: https://www.edx.org/course/energy-within-environmental-constraints-harvardx-engsci137x
to learn more and discuss the details with the authors.
I do hope some of you thicky bricky, back of a fag packet, stick a thumb in the air researchers with your oh so superior Diplomas from the University of Life will be enrolling to show these Harvard Professors and Research Fellows their schoolboy errors …. =))
L.Willo wrote:
Oh god. OK, bit of real world arithmetic for you. I cycle 12 miles each way, so roughly an hour of aerobic exercise. I emit whatever CO2 equivalent. Now imagine my colleague who drives, maybe in a Prius, the same distance. IF I were eating a paleo diet and he were a vegan, maybe my CO2 equivalents would be similar to his. Very nice.
But this ‘analysis’ omits the CO2 costs of construction, it omits the CO2 emissions my colleague makes while sat in his Prius, and omits the CO2 emissions he makes while taking the aerobic exercise I have already taken. More generally, as even the researcher admits in his discussion, he ignores the fact that car driving allows much longer travel distances, and requires an energy-expensive road building and maintenance programme.
So yes, environmental problems are indeed ‘wicked’, and this simplistic comparison of the most damaging cyclist, with the most virtuous Prius driver (who takes no exercise and eats no excess food), really doesn’t help.
L.Willo wrote:
I’m sure you appreciated his simplistic assumptions.
Don’t forget to ask him to factor in the impact of cyclists deferring to every other category of road user at each interaction, and to clarify which segment all your emissions should be grouped under.
L.Willo wrote:
Were you able to transfer credits from your previous studies?
handlebarcam wrote:
Were you able to transfer credits from your previous studies?— L.Willo
I could be arguing in my spare time……!
L.Willo wrote:
El Dildo,
As a fully graduated and qualified researcher, with 17 years real life experience in the field, I feel qualified to question their methodology and the interpretation of the findings. Fortunately, the “thicky bricky” people of the forum have shown either a superior level of intelligence than you credit them with, or the research is indeed very flawed.
The data may actually be really interesting and provide some really interesting points, when you consider shared journeys things can quickly start to look different (so long as there’s no de-tour for the sharing). Maybe it suggests that if you could get 20, 30 or even 40 people onto a mode of transport, with a pre-determined route, all sharing the cost, we may have hit gold. I’m not sure what this idea could be, I’ve reacked my brain but it’s like waiting for a bus.
The main flaws are the paramters and comparisons used and extrapolating things from a tiny sub sample of the population which has lead to a conclusion that “some cyclists may actually be more harmful to for the environment than some cars” as the lead in the piece allowing those that are deliberately feckless to ignore the standard. I can find a mass murderer that has contributed a greater imapct on reducing carbon emissions than a tree hugger, it doesn’t make murder the preferred approach.
And soon to appear on the Ig
And soon to appear on the Ig Nobel nominations.
This would all make perfect
This would all make perfect sense if all those car drivers were vegetarians who never travel by aeroplane, used air conditioning etc
“Assumptions are dangerous
“Assumptions are dangerous things to make, and like all dangerous things to make — bombs, for instance, or strawberry shortcake — if you make even the tiniest mistake you can find yourself in terrible trouble.” – Lemony Snicket
He’s underestimating the fuel efficiency of your average commute (25mpg, for rush hour in the US), overestimating the energy demands of cycling (apparently, I’ll expend 5,000 calories in order to complete my next metric century – at commuting pace, no less – I’ll keep my fingers crossed), discounting the idle energy expenditure of your average driver (the average US male weighs 200 pounds, and contrary to popular opinion they don’t produce their own energy) and, (at least admittedly) not taking into account that people who use their bike will end up travelling less (I know someone in the US who had a 200 mile roundtrip commute, that’s going to be quite hard to do on a bike). When you combine all that, it gets really fun. Someone who trades his car in for his bike and starts commuting 20 miles (average US commute) to work is going to get fairly fit compared to someone who just drives in. He’s certainly going to get much more efficient than 50 cal/km cycling. Also, the bike-commuter is on average going to end up losing weight (as per previous studies), which means that not only is his additional intake going to be less than the estimate, but his maintenance intake is going to be less, while average Americans are going in the opposite direction. Which means that even discounting for idle expenditures, the exercise will likely significantly overestimate the caloric intake difference.
Also, if you’re going to include second order effects like land usage, not only is the cyclist more likely to relocate closer to work, but also somewhere where other things are close by. So he’s going to make his whole life more efficient. And as more people do the same, transportation energy expenditure would going to go down significantly. Add that to other second-order effects not being taken into account, including infrastructure maintenance and congestion.
I think it’s good to discuss these notions, even when they’re not fully thought out, but it gets dicey if/when more mainstream outlets start picking it up without understanding that it’s not a proper study.
Carton wrote:
What is more interesting to me is how this research affects my attitude to sport. Clearly the Tour de France is a pointless Greenhouse Gases catastrophe when you consider all of the extra meat and dairy sourced calories consumed in training and in the race to allow the athletes to perform? Would it look so benign if that was a huge convoy of Ford Focuses driving 150Km every day for no purpose whatsoever? How many TdF stages equals one Formula one race or is that question the wrong way around? Hopefully by the end of the course I will learn how to make those calculations.
What about Ride London and the London Marathon? I have completed both and now feel quite ashamed when I consider the totally unnecessary calories I consumed in training as well as during the events, the concommitant increase in greenhouse gases and land usage.
Can you claim to care about sustainability and NOT be a vegan?
Lots of food for thought …ahem. That is what good quality research should provoke …. in the open-minded that is ……….
L.Willo wrote:
New research suggests commenting on road.cc is extremely calorie intensive. For the sake of the planet, you should cut back.
bikebot wrote:
…. temporarily deactivate ignore filter …..
Says the spambot who has made 1853 poor quality ‘posts’ …. =))
…. reactivate filter
L.Willo wrote:
Ever going to answer the question on who provided your training?
Or will you run away again?
It’d probably be more helpful
It’d probably be more helpful to compare the effects of different transport modes across existing populations than go all the way down to an individual on an specific diet?
E.G. If Los Angeles cycling modal share replaced car use for 10/20/30/40% of in-city journies, what would the effects on emmisions, polution, conjestion, short and long term health etc.
One on one only tells you much at the extreme, where it’s the average you want to know about for any policy choices?
His research makes as much
His research makes as much sense as Paleo diet itself.
This ‘Paleo’ bloke, is he a
This ‘Paleo’ bloke, is he a cyclist?
I would not have the audacity
I would not have the audacity to question someone so learned in his field without equivalent credentials. I know my place.
I do however look forward to observing the debates in the forum where you lot take these two Harvard / MIT educated shysters to task with your rules of thumb, back of a fag packet calculations and combined double digit IQ. =))
L.Willo and Ronnie Corbett
I look down upon you.
Leviathan wrote:
Only as you are crossing a bridge?
Leviathan wrote:
Doesn’t everyone?
L.Willo wrote:
What are you on about? No one is disputing the “findings”, only pointing out that they are so narrowly drawn as to be basically meaningless. It’s like pointing at the ThrustSSC and saying “Some cars use more fuel than a Boeing 747.”
L.Willo wrote:
Sadly not true
L.Willo wrote:
I can’t decide if L.Willo is being sarcastic or not. Poe’s Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) strikes again.
Anyhow, that quote up there is a lovely example of argument from authority (a common logical fallacy): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
L.Willo wrote:
Huh? If I’ve read this right, he’s a grad-student, not a tenured professor. Even I’ve been a grad-student, as have huge numbers of people. I’ve known lots of grad students (including in this very field), they are ten-a-penny, particularly in the US as the US system very much depends on their cheap labour.
And the article was on a blog, not a peer-reviewed journal, so anyone can question it, no ‘credentials’ required. You need to get over your fawning towards the ‘Harvard educated’, (my Yale-educated friend would beg to differ on that one!).
if it isn’t in a reputable peer-reviewed journal it’s probably not intended to be taken entirely seriously.
Sounds like a, as you put it, ‘back of a fag packet calculation’, made for fun and publicity, given the weird assumptions about diet and calorie expenditures (how many cyclists follow ‘paleo diets’? like 0.01% of them?) – though it might be partly about drawing attention to the valid point that meat-production is a significant producer of greenhouse gases.
FluffyKittenofTindalos][quote
You missed the point that the research was backed and assisted by Professor David Keith and published on the latter’s blog. You also missed the point that both are teaching on the edX course referenced in the article.
I can guess your next question, who is this Professor David Keith environment hater with no more credibility than your average below the line road.cc poster?
Well see for yourself:
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5264256ae4b0b34efecab6b7/t/56faa8eb27d4bde557611e00/1459267819202/DWK+CV+Jan-2016.pdf
… and I would invite any of the “he doesn’t know what he is talking about!” brigade to post your own credentials so we all can see exactly what you have contributed to furthering environmental science.
I won’t be holding my breath …..
L.Willo]
You missed the point that the research was backed and assisted by Professor David Keith and published on the latter’s blog. You also missed the point that both are teaching on the edX course referenced in the article.
I can guess your next question, who is this Professor David Keith environment hater with no more credibility than your average below the line road.cc poster?
Well see for yourself:
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5264256ae4b0b34efecab6b7/t/56faa8eb27d4bde557611e00/1459267819202/DWK+CV+Jan-2016.pdf
… and I would invite any of the “he doesn’t know what he is talking about!” brigade to post your own credentials so we all can see exactly what you have contributed to furthering environmental science.
I won’t be holding my breath …..
— FluffyKittenofTindalos
Congratulations on missing the point quite so well. Actually quite a few points. Ranging from the relatively trivial (the numbers are weird, they really are, go look at a sports science text or your own Garmin after a ride) through your authority worship (crap science there!) through to the weirdness of the comparison between a meat munching cyclist and a vegetable eating Prius driver.
But the biggest issue you miss is that this work is so narrowly focussed on one consequence of exercise that it has the potential to be seriously misused by car salesmen and evangelists. As I and others have tried to explain, even if all the numbers were believable, they ignore completely the other consequences of shifting from cycling/walking to car driving.
In summary, I don’t doubt Dr Keith’s credentials as a climate engineer. I do, however, believe that his specialised knowledge has led him to ignore important consequences of his work.
oldstrath]
You missed the point that the research was backed and assisted by Professor David Keith and published on the latter’s blog. You also missed the point that both are teaching on the edX course referenced in the article.
I can guess your next question, who is this Professor David Keith environment hater with no more credibility than your average below the line road.cc poster?
Well see for yourself:
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5264256ae4b0b34efecab6b7/t/56faa8eb27d4bde557611e00/1459267819202/DWK+CV+Jan-2016.pdf
… and I would invite any of the “he doesn’t know what he is talking about!” brigade to post your own credentials so we all can see exactly what you have contributed to furthering environmental science.
I won’t be holding my breath …..
— L.Willo
Congratulations on missing the point quite so well. Actually quite a few points. Ranging from the relatively trivial (the numbers are weird, they really are, go look at a sports science text or your own Garmin after a ride) through your authority worship (crap science there!) through to the weirdness of the comparison between a meat munching cyclist and a vegetable eating Prius driver.
But the biggest issue you miss is that this work is so narrowly focussed on one consequence of exercise that it has the potential to be seriously misused by car salesmen and evangelists. As I and others have tried to explain, even if all the numbers were believable, they ignore completely the other consequences of shifting from cycling/walking to car driving.
In summary, I don’t doubt Dr Keith’s credentials as a climate engineer. I do, however, believe that his specialised knowledge has led him to ignore important consequences of his work.— FluffyKittenofTindalos
So your attitude is don’t publish the outcome of research in case other people misuse it? Nothing would ever be published in that case.
By all means constructively criticise those who misunderstand, misinterpret or attempt to misuse information.
What is however completely intolerable are the posters who are not fit to lace the authors’ shoes denigrating them personally, their motives and their work because they do not like the outcome. One barely sentient clown has actually sent an abusive and offensive email if he/she is to be believed. The chutzpah!
But censorship? No. Attack the messenger? No.
Uncomfortable truths are better than obfuscation and downright lies.
L.Willo wrote:
Where to begin?
Firstly, you’re constructing a straw-man argument (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) as you’re mis-representing Fluffy’s position. He never said about non-publication of research – suspect he probably thinks that dodgy research should be pointed out and not celebrated.
Secondly, you seem obsessed with researchers’ reputations and not focussing on the actual research. It’s largely irrelevant who performs experiments as long as valid methodology is used. This particular research has very questionable choice of data sets to focus on and we should recognise that and point it out. To think that because someone is a professor that they are infallible is not a particularly effective way of evaluating research.
I don’t know what kind of personal attacks have been made and I agree that attacking research simply because you don’t like the outcome is wrong. However, I don’t think that is happening here. From what I’ve read, it sounds more like criticism (not all constructive).
I also think uncomfortable truths should be preferred to obfuscation, but this research looks more like using cherry-picked numbers to hide what typically happens with CO2 and modes of transport. It seems to me that he was using the outliers (i.e. Prius and paleo-diet) to make a point and that is more politics than science.
L.Willo]
No, my attitude is that people should care about accuracy, should do work which covers all the system, not just a tiny bit, and should think hard about the consequences of their work.
I’ll accept that the last of these can look a bit like self censorship, but 35 years of working in medicine probably also induces specialist disease, and there is no way I could let this dubious work, with its scary implications if used thoughtlessly, go unchallenged.
And yes, I’ve also written to Professor Keith, pointing out the because,nd my concerns. From my academic address, because alas, excessive respect for titles is not confined to L Willo.
L.Willo wrote:
This is so naive. You clearly know little about how academia works, and particularly how it has changed over recent decades.
As it happens I don’t think this single post on a blog is really an example, but there _is_ a problem with an ever-increasing pressure to publish-or-be-fired – and there does seem to be an ever-increasing tendency of university press-departments to misrepresent research in order to gain the attention of the media. And sometimes this even seems to creep back up the chain to affect what gets into papers themselves.
But putting tenuous work on the web is fine, what isn’t so fine is when people like you misinterpret it and fail to look at what it actually consists of, in favour of just looking for conclusions you like.
It says something that you presume something to be an ‘uncomfortable truth’ even when it hasn’t been established to be ‘true’ by the normal process of peer-review. Which does exist for a reason you know? Otherwise we could just let anyone with credentials Willo finds impressive publish anything they want on the web and take it as being necessarily ‘true’. Would make ‘science’ much cheaper and easier, that’s for sure, could do away with the whole business of journals and peer-review and replication.
Actually, given your utter nonsense about ‘personal attacks’ on the authors and the idea that its inherently wrong for an academic to disagree with another, I really should accept you are just a classic-troll and stop bothering.
Can we _please_ have a kill-file/ignore-list facility on here?
L.Willo wrote:
— L.Willo
From the man who won’t even tell us where he received his cycle training.
Oh go on.
L.Willo]
[quote
You missed the point that the research was backed and assisted by Professor David Keith and published on the latter’s blog. You also missed the point that both are teaching on the edX course referenced in the article.
I can guess your next question, who is this Professor David Keith environment hater with no more credibility than your average below the line road.cc poster?
Well see for yourself:
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5264256ae4b0b34efecab6b7/t/56faa8eb27d4bde557611e00/1459267819202/DWK+CV+Jan-2016.pdf
… and I would invite any of the “he doesn’t know what he is talking about!” brigade to post your own credentials so we all can see exactly what you have contributed to furthering environmental science.
I won’t be holding my breath …..
— FluffyKittenofTindalos
Oh for God’s sake! Its the work of a grad-student. And you acknowledge this is something on a BLOG, not a peer-reviewed journal. People can put almost anything on blogs. If he wants the argument to be taken seriously he needs to publish it in a proper journal, otherwise it’s just something someone wrote on the internet.
Furthermore it says what it says, not what you want it to say. You don’t have a publication history as far as I am aware, so people are free to disagree with your misinterpretation of the blog.
Have you ever heard of the fallacy of ‘argument from authority’? Your fawning over someone’s credentials and desperate attaching yourself to the coat-tails of someone who you think has better credentials than you is a bit embarrassing (some of my friends are fully-tenured professors, doesn’t stop them constantly being wrong about things! ).
Its really not complicated – just because the conclusion fits your car-worshipping agenda doesn’t make the argument sound, not until its gone through the proper scientific process of peer-review. But, as I said, I am sure there is a valid point in there about the environmental-impact of meat-production and consumption.
FluffyKittenofTindalos][quote
You missed the point that the research was backed and assisted by Professor David Keith and published on the latter’s blog. You also missed the point that both are teaching on the edX course referenced in the article.
I can guess your next question, who is this Professor David Keith environment hater with no more credibility than your average below the line road.cc poster?
Well see for yourself:
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5264256ae4b0b34efecab6b7/t/56faa8eb27d4bde557611e00/1459267819202/DWK+CV+Jan-2016.pdf
… and I would invite any of the “he doesn’t know what he is talking about!” brigade to post your own credentials so we all can see exactly what you have contributed to furthering environmental science.
I won’t be holding my breath …..
— L.Willo Oh for God’s sake! Its the work of a grad-student. And you acknowledge this is something on a BLOG, not a peer-reviewed journal. People can put almost anything on blogs. If he wants the argument to be taken seriously he needs to publish it in a proper journal, otherwise it’s just something someone wrote on the internet. Furthermore it says what it says, not what you want it to say. You don’t have a publication history as far as I am aware, so people are free to disagree with your misinterpretation of the blog. Have you ever heard of the fallacy of ‘argument from authority’? Your fawning over someone’s credentials and desperate attaching yourself to the coat-tails of someone who you think has better credentials than you is a bit embarrassing (some of my friends are fully-tenured professors, doesn’t stop them constantly being wrong about things! ). Its really not complicated – just because the conclusion fits your car-worshipping agenda doesn’t make the argument sound, not until its gone through the proper scientific process of peer-review. But, as I said, I am sure there is a valid point in there about the environmental-impact of meat-production and consumption.— FluffyKittenofTindalos
“some of my friends are fully-tenured professors, doesn’t stop them constantly being wrong about things! “
Guilty!
At first, as pointed out
At first, as pointed out above, I believed that a school-boy error had been committed: not considering how many gCO2e the occupants produced per kilometre.
Let us assume that the car driver averages 60 km/h (37.5 mph), which is in-the-middle compared to other choices for simple “back-of the-fag-packet calculation”: 30 km/h or 90 km/h. 30 km/h, which will double the following result. 90 km/h (56 mph) will reduce it by a third. The choice of speed isn’t that important.
Allow our average American to consume their 2600 kcal/day, which works out at 108 kcal/hr. At the 60 km/h the occupant will produce 1.8 gCO2e/km, which is fairly insignificant compared to the CO2e from the car. I think that is why the CO2 produced by the occupants is not included, regardless of their vegan or other credentials. I was rather hoping to be able to prove a point.
I do have a concern, which is how the figure of 50 kcal.km was obtained. A cursory search led to a calculator http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/cycling.htm. Thanks for tribology for that. I am sure that, as the Beeb would say, other cycling calculators are available. A quick play with play with their default values gave a figure somewhat less than in the article, but I am sure within a suitable range depending on a cyclist’s weight, efficiency etc.
The next part of the article is rather confusing – referring to land use. The person, whether driver, cyclist or both (though not at the same time :)) both eat – I assume. Both make use of the petro-chemical industry – one rather more than the other. However, that does neatly bring us back to J Harrison, for the second statement is not without merit as a car.
It’s a few years’ old, but I’ve quoted scientific papers older than that; this article in The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car) gives that half of a car’s emissions occur during manufacture. I must admit that I only skimmed the article, as I have to go to work tomorrow. However, if that is for an average car, the figures per km for a car are out by a factor of 100% and those of the Prius would therefor be more inacurrate. No figures are available per kilometre for the manufature of a bicycle, but they are more simple machines.
This would give 600 gCO2e/km to the average car, 450 gCO2e/km to the Prius. Compared to roughly 200 gCO2e/km to the meat-munching Paleo cyclist, through to about 150 gCO2e/km for the average American cyclist and 100 gCO2e/km to the vegan cyclist. So it seems to be several times worse to drive than cycle.
As the author pointed out – cars allow one to travel many more miles, so in using one one tends to have a higher gCO2e footprint.
“Specifically, graduate
“Specifically, graduate student Daniel Thorpe singled out cyclists who follow the Paleo Diet”
Jharrison5 wrote:
I think you’ll find more car drivers on the Paleo diet…
Please show a little sympathy
Please show a little sympathy for Mr Thorpe. I strongly suspect that he has to create some original research to progress academically and he has demonstrated some imagination in sweating his sources (tiny data sets etc) to reach this conclusion.
It is not pretty, but it is the reality of academic life in the twenty first century. Simply regurgitating the known health, financial, social benefits etc of cycling will not pass muster.
Unless he can show that
Unless he can show that cyclists eat more meat tHan drivers this is questionable in the extreme.
Also most people are not on the paleo diet, and most cars are not a prius.
Pretty sure my meat consumption hasn’t gone up since starting cycling, sugar yes, meat no.
wycombewheeler wrote:
Agreed. What sort of Venn diagram would you end up with?
If the researcher is going to use this kind of argument, then I’d have thought those that expend calories in a gym without gaining a yard in transportation would be a worse ‘culprit’ than a cyclist (only by using his logic and not any I subscribe to, in the world of the sane). Surely combining your exercise with transportation is the perfect, most efficient combination possible?
[[[[[ If 3 cyclists eat 3
[[[[[ If 3 cyclists eat 3 cans of beans in 3 minutes and then ride a 50-mile T.T., surely their emissions will guarantee a 3-minute beating of their (3) PB’s? Off-message, I know, but I’m fartoo confused by El Willio to concentrate…
A major assumption being that
A major assumption being that car drivers don’t eat…
Can’t wait to see what facts the Daily Mail can get from this bullshit.
don simon wrote:
The French and Jeremy Corbyn ride bikes, pollute the planet so we have to leave the EU.
To be fair I don’t think this
To be fair I don’t think this research is as bad as people are making out.
It does not need to factor in the food eaten by motorists as it only studies the extra calories required to power the bike.
Obviously the environmental impact of manufacture is not included but overall the findings seem reasonable.
There are of course many other benefits to cycling in terms of mental and physical health, reduction in particulate pollution and reduction in harm caused by accidents but
for those of us who cycle for environmental reasons I think it gives us a lot to think about in terms of diet choices.
Rich_cb wrote:
I think the study is very suspect. Why concentrate on a Paleo diet rather than looking at typical cyclists’ diets vs typical motons’ diets?
I’d suspect that on average cyclists are fitter/healthier than car drivers. This would most likely affect their diet choices (e.g. the car driver rolling round to the drive-in McBurger and the cyclist munching on organic artisanal carrot sticks) but would also affect their resting heart rate. This could easily skew the results the other way as the moton is performing heavy mouth breathing all day long whereas the cyclist just merely sips at the air in the most efficient method possible. (This is similar to the effect where, by raising your heart rate through exercise, you tend to reduce your average heart rate throughout the whole day).
I’m also concerned about the missing external costs. The infrastructure required by cars is considerably more time and labour intensive than that required by bikes. If the roads are designed purely for bikes, then we wouldn’t need traffic lights running all day long or speed cameras. Also repair costs would be less, but that’s probably not too relevant is it’s only really the heavy vehicles (buses, trucks) that cause significant damage to the roads.
I wonder what the CO2 comparison would look like if they factored in the extra health care required for the burger munching motons?
hawkinspeter wrote:
The study looks at vegan diets (lowest carbon) , paleo diets (highest carbon) and a typical American diet.
You can roughly guesstimate where your own footprint lies.
Rich_cb wrote:
Fine, except that the research then uses those extra calories required as a straightforward measure of extra calories consumed, from which it then extrapolates CO2 emissions. But calories required is a problematic way of measuring calories consumed in this scenario, because it assumes that the drivers and cyclists are consuming calories directly proportionate to their energy needs. But in practice we know that – in the West at least – large numbers of people consume more calories than they actually need to meet their energy requirements; this is the reason we have such high levels of obesity. Without taking into account how much of the additional energy requirements of cycling are already mirrored by the excess calorie consumption of the average driver, the applicability of these findings to real world scenarios is highly problematic.
To give a real-world example; when I shifted from driving to cycling to work, I was already recording my calorie intake. My calorie consumption did not increase to meet the additional energy requirements of cycling, because the excess calories I was already eating were sufficient to cover that. All that happened was that I burnt more of those calories off and slowly lost weight over a 6 month period until I reached a new equilibrium. This is just one example, not intended to refute the findings of this research, but rather to point out the limitation of basing measures of energy consumption on measures of energy requirements.
Of course, this limitation of the research is obvious from reading it. But let’s be honest, the methodological limitations are not what is going to be focused on, only the headline message that ‘cycling emits more CO2 than driving’. It would have been nice if the author could have drawn more attention to the limited real-world applicability of his findings in the accompanying commentary.
slow_going wrote:
Bingo.
The major fallacy, is the idea that cycling would lead to a 1:1 increase in calories consumed to match energy expended. America (this being a US report) has a huge surplus of dietary energy, and our increasing sedentary lifestyle is a major public health problem.
Well, that and the specific calculations and focus on Paleo diets is rather odd (and markedly out of line with existing research).
bikebot wrote:
Exactly: he was chasing a headline/abstract and came up with research to fit it.
slow_going wrote:
Great point. And one born out by own measurements.
I rather suspect that the author does not particularly care about the impact on cycling. My suspicion is that this is part of the current wave of vegan propaganda.
Ush wrote:
Nothing wrong with a vegan diet. The problem comes if this tosh is picked up by MSM, and spun as ‘see, cycling’s no better than driving’.
oldstrath wrote:
I never made any judgement on the “wrongness” or otherwise of vegan diets. Merely speculated that the reason we’re seeing this is as part of the uptick of promotion of veganism that seems to have been doing the rounds lately.
While the study appears to be
While the study appears to be taking into account the average 20 mile commute, are they including the two or three stops for food or over priced coffee along the way?
The wording of the study though from the outside appears to point to the majority of cyclists being on the Paleo diet. A quick google gives this definition…
a diet based on the types of foods presumed to have been eaten by early humans, consisting chiefly of meat, fish, vegetables, and fruit and excluding dairy or cereal products and processed food
Now nowhere within this do I see any mention of cake or coffee, both staple foods of cyclists. For those reasons im rejecting the findings within this study.
Even if driving was clearly
Even if driving was clearly more CO2 efficient, the fossil fuels are a limited resource, whereas farm produce is renewable.
There is a logical flaw in
There is a logical flaw in Daniel Thorpe’s argument is that he is comparing the energy consumpion of the human cyclist to the motorised vehicle which is a fallacious.
The challenge is which which has the higher carbon footprint, (cyclist + bicycle) or (driver + car).
Just like journalists reporting crashes, Daniel Thorp’s car seems to be driverless. It’s not, and it’s a big assumption that the difference between the cyclist and the drivers food consumption will be greater than the cars carbon footprint. He hasn’t shown that.
Also missing from Thorps argument is type of journey, which for some a cyclist only needs only one journeys which if done by car needs two or more (think school run, taxi journey etc.)
Thorpe’s argument seems to be just too full of assumptions. I think I’ll go Occam’s razor on this one.
My whole beef (yes, pun
My whole beef (yes, pun intended) with this finding is that the low-carb Paleo diet isn’t exactly ideal for an activity as energy-intensive and as heavy on endurance as cycling.
On the outset, at least, high-carb vegan diets look better suited to cycling than Paleo is.
Then again, what do I know…I’m just a “dumb cyclist”
TypeVertigo wrote:
Leaving aside some other side effects, some low carb diets can help with endurance (not necessarily ketogenic diets), but are generally ill-suited to shorter, peak intensive efforts where the superior energy conversion of carbohydrates is usually a better bet.
TypeVertigo wrote:
Depends on the category of cycling (meaning avg speed and distance). What for convenience I’ll call “utility cycling” would be journeys of up to 10km under an avg speed of 20kph, and like walking shouldn’t need any dietary consideration. Whatever the diet, no one will exhaust their glycogen at that distance unless they’ve got a medical condition.
The thing is, although he defines specific types of car use (a prius, carpooling), he doesn’t define the cycling beyond the diet. Of course energy use in cycling varies massively as air resistance rises to the square of velocity (not quite as simple as that at cycling speeds, but it’ll do). I assume he’s referencing sports data, which would explain why his numbers are so off compared to other sources.
Basically, it’s a complicated way of saying the following. Something that is energy efficient can still produce more CO2 than something that is less efficient, if it uses an energy source with high enough CO2 emissions.
To whch I would add “duh”.
Whilst I have not read the
Whilst I have not read the study in detail, I would question the figures for CO2 from the Prius. Whilst it might be able to run on 150 gCO2e/km would it be able to achieve this efficiency in doing a cycle of 2km journeys rather than long trips on trunk roads/motorways?
Nobody in the cycling lobby would advocate for all journeys to be undertaken by bike and no-one in the car lobby believe that cars are as efficient as the published industry figures suggest.
Cars and bikes are very different. It is at the extreme end of the cars usage ie. very short journeys that the bike lobby would like to see less car usage. To be meaningful the motoring figures need to be relevent at this profile and I suspect the Prius would be much more inefficient and cyclists would not need specific diets to manage them.
Since I can’t be arsed to
Since I can’t be arsed to redo his calculations I’m going to make the dodgy assumption that they’re somewhere near OK.
Stacking up the dodgy assumptions, this site http://thepaleodiet.com/the-atlanta-journal-constitution-qa-with-dr-cordain/ suggests the number of people on a Paleo diet is ‘in the millions’ (presumably worldwide). Let’s be generous and say 5m. Out of a global population of 7.3bn. So about 0.068%, or about 1 in 1500. How many people cycle? Random guess – 20%.
So 1 in 7500 cyclists are Paleo.
Wiki says 0.1% of cars are plug in, let’s be really generous round that up to 0.5% to include hybrids.
Basically the ‘worst’ 1 in 7500 cyclists cause more emissions than the best 1 in 200 cars.
How to fund a research grant.
How to fund a research grant.
1. Have a theory.
2. Design your experiments to fit your theory.
3. Get Degree/PhD/whatever.
And before you moan at my very simplistic rubbish.
1. I’m taking the Pee
2. I spent the first 22 years of my working life in R&D.
Twonk!
The study is nonsense based
The study is nonsense based on my own experience. When I cycle more I actually eat less. All midweek rides are done fasted on water. I’m not on the paleo diet and none of the cyclists that I know are. 50 kcal per Km, and this is the work of a qualified researcher. The average cyclist working at a tempo pace would be using more like 30-40 kcal per mile (ie 30-40 per 1.6km or 18.75 to 25 per km) meaning this learned fellow has overestimated calorie use by at least double. In addition the recent emissions scandal has highlighted that no production cars are close to test emissions under real world conditions.
Cyclists have a huge Co2, all
Cyclists have a huge Co2, all those post office van deliveries for kit, gear and gadgets
Just sent the email below to
Just sent the email below to David Keith, head of the Keith group which published this research.
“Dear David,
having an environmental degree and an MSc in Transport Planning, I have to say I was amused by this piece of research, which is so full of holes it could serve as a collander.
“Paleo-diet cyclists warm the planet more than Prius drivers — but under the usual (but crazy) assumption that nothing matters beyond 100 years in the future”
That is far from being the only crazy assumption; perhaps you might like to read some of the comments on the road.cc website –
http://road.cc/content/news/193523-cycling-can-contribute-more-global-warming-driving-argues-harvard-researcher#comment-1313045“
I’ll post any responses here.
Isn’t the vehicle emmision
Isn’t the vehicle emmision ADDITIONAL TO that of its occupants, rather than instead of? Which nullifies the whole nonsensical theory!
RMurphy195 wrote:
In short, no.
The study looks at the additional calories that a cyclist would burn relative to a driver.
Well I’m astounded!
Well I’m astounded!
I can’t believe that not only the author of the original report got it wrong but so have all of you!
CO2 emissions are higher for cyclists for the following reason.
Bananas.
They cost shit loads to import.
Beer.
It costs shit loads to make.
I’m not even going to mention coffee.
And!
We all know Prius drivers all share with three of their friends.
However fuck it all. I’ll continue enjoying my hobby/pastime until it’s banned.
and let’s not forget how much carbon cyclists now take out of the environment via their lush new bikes.
Even by road.cc standards
Even by road.cc standards there is a spectacular level of thickery below the line.
For the hard of thinking, pay close attention to the following:
Store away all of your daft assumptions, it will stop you making a knee-jerk ass of yourself.
This research pure looks at the energy required to power a car and the energy required to power a bicycle and compares the emissions and land use required to do both. Last time I checked, driving (not for sports) is not considered to be exercise and therefore it is perfectly reasonable to ignore the emissions from an activity that barely impacts on the metabolism.
So compared with a vegan cyclist a Prius is more polluting. Compared with a meat and dairy hound, a Prius is less polluting. A Nissan Leaf powered by clean energy wipes the floor with both.
Yes the production, transport and distribution of cars and bicycles cause pollution, your fat mate in accounts might eat more than you even though he drives to work and someone in the US eats burgers, these facts are 100% irrelevant to the actual research. You have missed the point, … spectacularly.
Why is this research important? There are all sorts of initiatives aimed at getting people to exercise more. That means eating more. Which means greater emissions if those extra calories are sourced from meat and dairy. Methane is worse than CO2 for the environment.
Also, as mentioned previously and studiously ignored by the ostriches on here, there are huge implications for sport. There is a huge irony that Formula One has been carbon neutral since 1997 while the Tour de France continues to be an environmental catastrophe.
http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/blog/tour-de-france-sustainable-carbon-footprint-leeds-yorkshire
Even worse, the first line of that article turns out to be spectacularly wrong:
Cycling is as green as it gets. There are no emissions,…….
WRONG, Think again. Excellent research makes you do that. Assuming you have an open mind, admittedly a crazy assumption in these parts …..
L.Willo wrote:
No, that doesn’t necessarily follow. As has been alluded to before here and elsewhere, the reason for the reduction in obesity when moderate excercise regimes increase (such as walking and cycling) is that the existing excess calorific intake is being used to fuel the activity. There is no mandatory requirement for more energy input in general, and indeed the opposite may be true in some cases as excercise can promote less un-necessary snacking, better diets and a reduction in perceived hunger.
fukawitribe wrote:
No, that doesn’t necessarily follow. As has been alluded to before here and elsewhere, the reason for the reduction in obesity when moderate excercise regimes increase (such as walking and cycling) is that the existing excess calorific intake is being used to fuel the activity. There is no mandatory requirement for more energy input in general, and indeed the opposite may be true in some cases as excercise can promote less un-necessary snacking, better diets and a reduction in perceived hunger.— L.Willo
That is a fair point as the relationship between food consumption and energy output is a complicated one. For sure examples like Michael Phelps eating 6000 calories per day while in training are not relevant to a massively obese person starting an exercise programme.
But I do still think that this sort of research adds to our collective pool of knowledge and might, perhaps should, influence the types of exercise that is promoted using public funds. Bodybuilding? Probably not.
L.Willo wrote:
This is the point that really concerns me about this, and about which I get very angry: “might, perhaps should, influence the types of exercise that is promoted using public funds. “. I spend my professional life trying to get people to take aerobic exercise, and running studies on how best to get people to take aerobic exercise. Both experience and the trials suggest that getting people to incorporate walking or cycling into their daily activities is by far the best method, and ‘research’ that puts this at risk pisses me off thoroughly, particularly this sort of ‘research’ based on fantasy numbers andmeaningless comparisons.
Yes, aerobic exercise necessarily involves CO2 emission, both directly and from the food consumed. It is also, so far as we can tell, essential for healthy life, and giving it up in favour of a Nissan Leaf ‘because of CO2’ is bonkers. By all means, switch to a vegan diet, you may well reduce your impact on global warming, and may well be healthier. But that is a different argument from the one this ‘research’ will be used to support (indeed that you are perilously close to supporting).
The hyper-specialisation that allows Mr Thorpe to produce work focussed so narrowly on immediate climate change effects, with no thought for consequent effects, other pollutants, or human health is, of course, a familar hazard of academia. That doesn’t excuse his, and your, deliberate blindness to likely consequences.
L.Willo wrote:
Shitting hell – 230 posts in and you have made a half decent one!
I only ride a couple of miles each day to work and certainly don’t increase my intake for this, 60 to 100 miles on the weekend and I do have a few more carbs, pack a banana. You can certainly state that my travel to work routine is far better than any motorised transport and extropolated across 64m or so UK adults my research finds 100% of people should travel to work by bike.
As a counter argument, my weekend miles are pointless as they fall under enjoyment, let’s extropolate again. All the Prius drivers are making essential trips to garden centres and Frankie and Benny’s whilst moaning on Facebook about sitting in a jam or not finding a parking space. We should all be this person, and book a one way ticket to Swizerland!
fukawitribe wrote:
No, that doesn’t necessarily follow. As has been alluded to before here and elsewhere, the reason for the reduction in obesity when moderate excercise regimes increase (such as walking and cycling) is that the existing excess calorific intake is being used to fuel the activity. There is no mandatory requirement for more energy input in general, and indeed the opposite may be true in some cases as excercise can promote less un-necessary snacking, better diets and a reduction in perceived hunger.— L.Willo
Exactly as fukawitribe says. Me personally. I’m cycling roughly 200 miles a week. And that’s base mileage. I don’t eat any extra food to sustain this and my weight sits at a steady 65kg. The only time I bulk up is when I do a long weekend cycle followed by a juicy steak as my reward. Oh I should add that I’m on my feet all day at work doing lots of lifting so I’m not sedentary at all in fact I possibly walk around 10 miles a day (work and out of work)
The vast majority of people who are being encouraged to exercise are those who are overweight/obese and actually need to reduce their calorie intake to allow exercise to be effective in assisting weight loss. And in some cases a brisk walk unless supervised could be dangerous to their heart. As things balance out you will find that these same people will be able to continue to exercise and not increase their calorie intake once the unnecessary snacking and processed food is cut out. And unless you are going to be moving towards competitive sport only then will your diet change to facilitate this.
giff77 wrote:
Of course you do eat extra food to support your cycling otherwise your weight would be falling. The questions for you are:
That is a very interesting question, a complex one, but the answers do have implication for public planning.
L.Willo wrote:
Wow! What a huge assumption. That to maintain my weight I would be having to consume more because I cycle 200 miles per week. I’m speechless. I didn’t realise you had access to my fridge and larder or sit and watch me having my various meals over the week. My commutes which make up my base miles aren’t mashed out. I go out. Enjoy myself. I smile if it’s sunny and grumble about the wind and have a wry smile when it rains. My long rides are the same. I go and enjoy the countryside or the coast or wherever I find myself. There’s absolutely no need to up my intake to 5000+ calories.
To answer your questions:
If I jacked in cycling and maintained my current diet. No I wouldn’t loose weight. Because I’m eating a balanced diet and I’m not a desk jockey. And my cycling doesn’t involve mashing out sweaty 6.7mile commutes. As I said I only load up with carbs for my long cycles.
if I reduced my intake I would actually start to loose weight especially if driving the Nissan Leaf. As for expending CO2 the levels would be negligible between my sitting on my arse behind a wheel and on a saddle. Meanwhile the emissions caused by having to charge up said vehicle would be pretty high compared to my bikes which are both over 10 years old and have paid for themselves.
giff77 wrote:
So you manage to cycle 200 miles a week without consuming any extra calories?
Someone get thermodynamics on the phone.
vonhelmet wrote:
So you manage to cycle 200 miles a week without consuming any extra calories?
Someone get thermodynamics on the phone.— giff77
Yep, I am that machine
But in all seriousness. Day to day cycling. The miles do add up. The commute, the shopping run, trip to the cinema. And when you’re not strava hunting, mashing a big gear or doing some serious training then you don’t really need to up your calorie intake. As I said further up the thread it’s only when I’m doing big rides I load up on carbs and even then not by much.
giff77 wrote:
Unless you’re freewheeling downhill, then you are using more calories than you would be otherwise… That’s just physics.
giff77 wrote:
But surely all that cycling irrespective of how fast or hard it maybe has to be fuelled in the same way that just existing has to be fuelled. So the question is if you weren’t doing 200 miles a week cycling (which for sake of argument less say burns 1000 calories) and ate the same amount food each week then surely you would put on weight because you are not using the ‘extra’ 1000 calories that the cycling used, unless of course you replaced the cycling with some other activity that burned the same 1000 calories.
L.Willo wrote:
I’d agree that excellent research can make you question previously held beliefs, but this is not an example of excellent research. This is an example of someone armed with a calculator and using lots of assumptions. He hasn’t really performed any research as there wasn’t any experiment performed – he just ran some numbers.
I’d be more interested if someone evaluated diet/lifestyle choices over a course of weeks/months/years to figure out the relative carbon footprints of different modes of transport (e.g. train, bus, car, cycle, scooter, walking). This particular “research” is just some cherry-picked numbers which might as well be a political statement for all the value that it has.
L.Willo wrote:
Well it appears that L Willo has now completed his correspondence course with Harvard that he signed up for yesterday, and now is able to lecture us from his far more superior understanding of environmental issues, sports nutrition, public health policies and the scientific method.
I for one, with my mere Diploma from University of Life have been put firmly in my place and will from now on defer to his superior intellect and reasoning.
Oh no, we get that Willbert.
Oh no, we get that Willbert.
We understand that devoid of all context and rationality you can make a case for anything in the name of science. The only thing that’s interesting is the motivation behind it. There’s nothing new or profound about the study in the slightest.
Bunkum is bunkum. Right up your street though Willbert. No surprise you got on well with it.
There are qutie a few long
There are qutie a few long term members of road.cc, who else remembers Northstar? Previous title holder of greatest bellend. I seem to remember that eventually he was “muted” rather than banned, and was left to yell abuse at people that they never got to see, which of course annoyed him no end.
Anyhow, just raising that now as there’s a problem with a new bellend. It’s fairly obvious that if you join a community solely to insult that community, sooner or later they’ll invite you to fuck off.
I’ve got ‘O’ level woodwork.
I’ve got ‘O’ level woodwork. Can that count as a credential?
efail wrote:
What’s an ‘O’ level?
I think someone on this forum is underestimating the scientific literacy of the posters. If this paper was rigorous it wouldn’t be so easy to criticise. After all the beauty of science is if it is correct it can’t be proved wrong. Or perhaps someone is just a contrarian and wants the attention of getting replies and stirring the pot. It wouldn’t b the first time.
efail wrote:
Compared to Willo, you’re a genius.
efail wrote:
Hypothetical case, but if Willo needed brain surgery, would you be available?
burtthebike wrote:
I hear Ben Carson is available.
burtthebike wrote:
I’ve got my apron on and auger sharpened!
burtthebike wrote:
Presumably micro surgery?
burtthebike wrote:
Presumably micro surgery?
Given that Mr. Thorpe’s blog
Given that Mr. Thorpe’s blog post proved to ignite some interesting conversation, I’ll run the same calculations under slightly different assumptions. A 200lb male (average US weight) at a light cycling (10-12mph) level of excercise would consume 455 Cal/hour vs 91Cal/hour driving (which would seem to work out at basically less than the average caloric expenditure for an american male, but nevermind). That leaves a delta of 364 calories/hour (what you would burn instead of driving/idling), which works out to 33Cal/mile @11mph or 20.5Cal/km. Let’s furthermore adjust those fuel efficiency numbers to include all cars (not just new cars that average 25mpg) which works out to 22.7mph, plus, since this is a commute we’re talking about, lets add a 37.5% additional fuel usage factor. That works out to about 16.5mpg for a normal car and 3.6L/100km for a Prius.
Your results matrix would look as follows:
Biking, vegan diet: 33 gCO2e/passenger-km
Biking, avg US diet: 53 gCO2e/passenger-km
Biking, paleo diet: 78 gCO2e/passenger-km
Prius, double occupancy: 103 gCO2e/passenger-km
Prius, single occupancy: 206 gCO2e/passenger-km
Typical US car, single occupancy: 454 gCO2e/passenger-km
Again, this does not include all sorts of second order effects like the cost of infrastructure, manufacture and congestion. But under any assumption, I’d rather focus on getting people on bikes or at least hybrids, rather than making sure every Prius has five people crammed into it and every cyclist is a vegan. But YMMV.
GCN made a video comparing
GCN made a video comparing cycling vs an electric car a while ago…
https://youtu.be/YN1i2a5wtuo4
of course, it wasn’t peer reviewed research published in a scientific journal so make of it what you will.
This is so much bullshit.
This is so much bullshit.
If you look at the original blog, they use a value of 50 kcal per km for the cyclist.
This is about a factor of 3-4 out. Check out bikecalculator.com, it’s more like 15 kcal per km.
An example, a cyclist, who weighs ~80kg, on 12kg, doing around 12 mph, uses around 70 watts, which is around 13,000 joules per km. Assuming food is only 20% efficient this is 65,200 joules of food energy, which is 15.6 kcal/km.
But lets how highlight how stupid this all is by considering the energy it takes to acclerate a car, beause the numbers quoted in the blog are for steady state driving, and it’s important to look at the starting of stopping of cars.
A car weighing 2000kg, needs to gain 180,000 joules of energy to get from 0-30 mph (1/2*m*v*v). Assuming petrol is around 20 % efficient this is around 818,000 joules of petrol energy.
How many kilometres can a cyclist travel using that energy if it were food?
818,000/65,200 = 12.5 km.
So the energy it takes a typical car to make one single acceleration is the equivalent of what might be the cyclist’s entire commute to work and back.
And yet the blog tries to convince us using exceptionally skewed data that a cyclist can be more deterimental to the enivornment that a 2000kg car. Are you kidding me. And this is from “climate scientists”. They really should take the blog down before other scientists start ridiculing them.