Nick Freeman, the lawyer nicknamed ‘Mr Loophole’ for obtaining not guilty verdicts for celebrities charged with motoring offences, has secured the acquittal of a London cyclist who had been accused of causing a crash.
Paul Crompton, aged 54, appeared at Bexley Magistrates’ Court yesterday charged with riding his bike “without due care and attention” following an incident in Lewisham on 24 October 2020, reports the News Shopper.
Oct 2020 I was rammed from behind by a motorist as I was cycling. Unbelievably, @CPSUK decided to take me to court for “cycling without due care and attention”. Today I was given a NOT GUILTY verdict. I was represented by @TheMrLoophole who made sure justice was done. pic.twitter.com/QV3HIN5NVI
— Paul Crompton (@major_rawls) January 6, 2022
The prosecution had claimed that Mr Crompton – a television producer whose credits include the Channel 4 show Escape to the Chateau – had braked suddenly in front of 74-year-old driver Derek Pipe, causing him to crash into the back of his bike.
Mr Crompton, who sustained soft tissue damage in the incident on Ladywell Road, described the charge against him as “insane” and told the court that he had feared being “sandwiched in” between Mr Pipe’s Ford Focus and a row of parked cars and that he knocked on the driver’s window to try and make him aware of his presence.
“I wanted to warn him that he’d done a dangerous manoeuvre and I would hope that a warning would mean he would think about it next time,” he explained.
“I knocked on his window and shouted, ‘Didn’t you see me?’ very loudly.”
He said he then rode in front of the car, but was “catapulted” over his handlebars after the driver crashed into the back of his bike, destroying the rear wheel.
“He had no idea I was there,” he added.
Mr Pipe had claimed that Mr Crompton had clipped his wing mirror and hurled abuse at him during the incident, and that he had then stopped twice in front of his car and given him no time to avoid the crash.
He told the court: “The cyclist came up the outside of me and then put his bike across the front of my car towards the windscreen and started hurling abuse, shouting, going off in a very intimidating, aggressive manner.
“I was just proceeding safely behind him then all of a sudden he stopped again a second time,” said the motorist, who claimed he was driving at five miles per hour when he struck Mr Crompton.
“The distance we both travelled was so short it was impossible for me to hit the brake in time,” he added.
Mr Freeman, who described Mr Pipe’s version of events as “littered with confusion,” said that even if the cyclist had come to a halt suddenly, Mr Crompton had not allowed adequate braking distance between his vehicle and the rider.
He said the claim that his client meant to cause the collision was “ludicrous,” bringing about “this rather unique and bizarre situation Mr Crompton finds himself in accused of riding without due care and attention.”
Christina Pride, chairing the bench, said: “We’ve heard two differing accounts of the incident.
“The prosecution has not proven the case so that we are sure beyond reasonable doubt. We therefore find Mr Crompton not guilty.”
Following the verdict, Mr Crompton said that he was “utterly, utterly relieved.”
He added: “Although it sounds farcical you still question which way they will go because it’s one person’s word against another.”
Mr Freeman, whose past clients include Sir Alex Ferguson, David Beckham and Jeremy Clarkson, said: “The whole case has been bizarre,” and described it as “a complete waste of people’s time, trouble and money.
Happy to report a successful outcome for my client #cycling https://t.co/TFOUKQxa1I
— Nick Freeman (@TheMrLoophole) January 6, 2022
“This has taken up three hours of time,” he continued. “It’s cost the taxpayer probably thousands of pounds.
“Mr Crompton will now be commencing civil proceedings against Mr Pipe,” he added.
Last month, the Government responded to a petition posted by Mr Freeman last June on the Parliament.uk website in which he called for cyclists to be registered and wear visible ID, be subject to penalty points if they commit offences and be forced to ride in cycle lanes where applicable.
In response, the Department for Transport said: “The Government has no plans to introduce any such requirements for cyclists. The current trials of rental e-scooters will inform future policy on them.
“The Government considers that the costs of a formal registration system for cycle ownership would outweigh the benefits. The safety case for such a system is not as strong as that for drivers since, by contrast with motorised vehicles, cycles involved in collisions on the highway are highly unlikely to cause serious injury to other road users.”





















166 thoughts on “Mr Loophole secures acquittal of cyclist accused of causing crash”
Hmm. Mr Loophole defending a
Hmm. Mr Loophole defending a cyclist. This will cause a disturbance in the space-time continuum.
Seems like a case that shouldn’t have gone to court.
That sounds really bizarre –
That sounds really bizarre – trying to prove “without due care and attention” when it’s just one person’s word against another. I don’t understand how the police took it further without other witnesses or video footage or maybe that only applies to when cyclists report road crime.
hawkinspeter wrote:
WE know the old codger is lying from the outset
No witnesses are required. For anyone who knows the slightest thing about HWC, cycling and driving, it’s plain the driver is a lying c$nt. Therefore no case to answer, as it seems the magistrate rightly discerned
I personally don’t believe
I personally don’t believe that a car doing 5mph and in the process of stopping would do that damage to a back wheel. If they were that fragile, one fenland pothole combined with my enormous post-solstice festival bulk would see me needing a new wheel too.
Just can’t understand how CPS decided there were grounds to proceed.
Just keep an eye out for Crompton producing an independent balanced factual programme featuring Mr Poophole on hi vis, bicycle registration, road tax etc.
Riding without due care and
Riding without due care and attention is a criminal change, no? Obvs. we’re missing a lot of the detail as to why this ever went ahead and probably will never see it.
Maybe someone played heavily on the “threats and fear” and the age difference? Maybe there was some other evidence of beef between them or some other point the driver could advance suggesting this situation had come up before for him?
I agree on the face of it it seems as extraordinary as a mugger launching a claim for someone’s face wounding his fist. I’m just trying to understand how this could have flown (requiring the nod from both police, CPS and the court).
Either that or the driver was well-connected or someone in the police / CPS was getting unduly personally involved?
Not against the principle that a cyclist could be in court for e.g. riding into a car but this one seems a bit strange when it looks like the vulnerable party took most if not all the damage. I mean, you could as easily frame it as “driver was warned about dangerous manoever, took umbrage then deliberately assaulted cyclist by riding into them.”
PRSboy wrote:
WTF the CPS were thinking pushing this one – no realistic chance of conviction, not in public interest.
Sounds like an institutionally anti-cyclist police and CPS. Facking d!cks
WTF? Someone stops, another
WTF? Someone stops, another road user who wasn’t paying attention and/or leaving a suitable stopping distance crashes into them.
The person who stops gets prosecuted???
WTAF???
The Magistrates came to the only correct verdict – the defence barrister could have been a manatee for all relevance to the outcome, yet somehow poophole gets kudos????
Fack my old boots
Captain Badger wrote:
Mind you, the comments are a scream….
Crompton is in TV so probably
Crompton is in TV so probably has a few quid and went for someone he’d heard of (or maybe that his mates have previously used) but any lawyer would have got the same verdict. I’m pretty sure he could have defended himself and got off. In employing Nick Freeman he’s lined the pockets and generated more publicity for the vampiric mercenary, making the roads less safe for us all.
This rather adds credence to
This rather adds credence to the theory that the reason Freeman wants more regulation for cyclists is so that he will be able to generate more work from them.
Yep, he isn’t bothered who
Yep, he isn’t bothered who pays his 10k a day fees, whether it is someone who drives 80mph through a school zone whilst on a mobile phone or someone who gets hit from behind whilst cycling. He takes the totally holistic view that cash is cash and whilst one is inherently more dangerous to passers-by then another, (apparently so dangerous that even cycles do the former), he goes “look at my wonga”.
Edit: He apparently did it for free. Obviously trying to cultivate an image he is not against cyclists even though he released a video claiming cyclists cycle 60mph through school zones and 40mph on pavements. Why would someone lie about such absurd claims for? Or claim a group of cyclists were cycling illegally when they were on the correct side of the road and cycling safely.
Perhaps now as it has been
Perhaps now as it has been revealed that Nick Freeman represented his client for free, you’d like to withdraw your unfounded and libellous remark?
“The first one is free…”
“The first sample is free…”
Garage at Large wrote:
The alternative would appear to be that he is stupid enough to actually think the things he’s suggesting are a good idea, which seems far more libellous to me.
I’m confused. Mr Crompton
I’m confused. Mr Crompton doesn’t seem to have been wearing a hi-viz tabard with a registration number on it . How on earth were the authorities able to identify the reckless “tax” dodging miscreant? After all, to quote an apparently top tier road safety expert:
“Without some kind of registration scheme we have no idea who may be riding a bike or an e-scooter.”
Nasal Forage wrote:
In this specific case it looks like it was quite hard for the cyclist to ride off into the sunset anonomously.
A challenge!
A challenge!
wycombewheeler wrote:
Because it happened in the morning?
Not as confused as me! I had
Not as confused as me! I had to google your new user name.
Pesky millenials and their cultural references, where’s FlintshireBoy with a nice Dire Straits song when you need one?
Hello Simon this is Clem
Hello Simon this is Clem Fandango, can you hear me?
Nasal’s job is done. So I’m taking a leaf out of Nige’s book re the user name. I’m reverting to just ignoring the so & so now.
I wish I was a millenial, my teeth are a bit longer than that unfortunately.
Clem Fandango wrote:
Yes, I can hear you Clem Fandango
It looks like the CPS has an
It looks like the CPS has an unconscious or even conscious bias problem towards cyclists.
If it had been two cars in collision would they have found grounds to prosecute, without video evidence, the driver in front or would our informal presumed liability mean that the car behind woud be presumed liable or the incident be seen as a 50/50 by insurers.
Fantastic result once again
Fantastic result once again for highly regarded lawyer and road safety expert Nick Freeman.
Perhaps now that people can see that Nick is merely giving people their best defence regardless of their form of transport, the childish – and quite frankly jealous – insults will stop.
Mr Freeman is taking a holistic, transport-agnostic view on road safety, and for that he should be applauded.
.
.
If you don’t have anything
If you don’t have anything productive to say, why reply? I never reply to you or the other people on this site who write abuse or engage in cyber bullying, and I find it a matter of deep regret that the site admins/moderators don’t do more in this regard.
You’ve set up an account for the sole purpose of harassing another person – I find that sad but unsurprising for the militant wing of cycling. Take a look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why you do what you do.
Garage at Large wrote:
Got you Nigel.
If someone pokes fun at you its “cyber bullying” but when you do it “its clearly a joke”.
(No subject)
Garage at Large wrote:
Finally bitten.
Excellent. I claim the win.
Your lack of irony is hilarious.
One for Rendel to add to the
One for Rendel to add to the library.
Garage at Large wrote:
Nigel are you going to follow your own advice
Is that you joking or actively engaging in Cyber Bullying?
It’s surely just banter, like
It’s surely just banter, like asking people with weight problems when the baby’s due, or calling grown women silly little girls and saying they should be beaten on the bottom. It’s all just good-natured joshing, of course, how could it possibly mistaken for the misanthropic misogynist ramblings of a very sad bitter individual?
Rendel Harris wrote:
Indeed, his comment is in reference to someone wearing a face covering in their profile picture……. it’s almost like he doesn’t know that there is a global pandemic going on.
He does, just he is
He does, just he is politically against such things like society protecting each other no matter what he states for road usage. Same reason he is against cycling clubs and pensioners.
Interesting, have the got a
Interesting, have you got a quote of the comment I was replying to, per chance?
Garage at Large wrote:
You mean this?
But Nige….. do you not regularly complain that the reason for cyclists being close passed is the fact that they respond to drivers that have close passed them. And that you don’t get angry.
So by your logic….. you are at fault for responding to the comment….. or is it one rule for you and one rule for the rest of us?
So if you were actually a man of your word…. which you are not because it has been proved that you repeatedly make stuff up…… You would have replied that you weren’t going to take the bait….. but instead you reacted
You are like any typical bully….. you are quite happy to dish out but complain bitterly when you are on the receiving end of similar.
TriTaxMan wrote:
If think you’ve got the cause and effect the wrong way round there I’m afraid – I was responding in a light-hearted manner to something silly which I assume was made in jest. A bit of counter-banter never hurt anyone!
Now, if I set out with the sole intention of denigrating someone else by imitating their username and posting nonsense in reply to everything they wrote (aka “thread-wrecking”), that would be a different matter.
Garage at Large wrote:
In all fairness, Nige, you do a pretty good job of thread-wrecking all by yourself…
Garage at Large wrote:
I have cause and effect the wrong way round????
That’s interesting coming from you. You repeatedly try to argue that where a driver close passes a cyclist…. the cyclist then shouts or reacts….. then the driver retaliates….. you try to argue that the cyclist reacting is the cause of all of the problems.
You keep getting told that the cause is the unwarranted close pass and that the effect is the reaction from the cyclist…… but that doesn’t suit your narrative
No, I’ve never said that a
No, I’ve never said that a cyclist has caused the close pass in the way you describe – what I say is that by cursing and acting aggressively on camera unnecessarily, two things happen which act contrary to our interests as cyclists:
Obviously if someone is frightened by a close pass they might act in an involuntarily manner, but all too often we see someone trying to exact revenge by chasing the motorist or shouting sexist abuse. In those times I’m reminded of the poem “If” by Rudyard Kipling:
“If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating…
You’ll be a man, my son!”
It’s by the standards of Kipling and other greats that I measure myself, and it’s a great yardstick for others to follow too.
Ps. thanks for reporting that rude comment on the other thread, I note it has now been removed.
Not just close passes, he
Not just close passes, he stated it was a cyclists fault for someone driving into the back of them deliberately because they stated “what the fuck” as they realised the driver was about to hit them.
I do find it also amazing that if he is so upset with social attitudes of cyclists being angry ranty men, why does he fund and support the people who perpetuate that myth like the DM, Freeman, Express and Telegraph.
Still let him think he has never lied at all and his delusions in his own private echo chamber.
Worse than that. The claim
Worse than that. The claim was the words were “you effing c ” Then the cyclist came on here and put them right to what we could hear anyway.
Nasal Forage wrote:
Nice one Nasal. The only productive and to the point response to racist misogynist odious turds (apart from silence that is)
The same goes for you. When
The same goes for you. You’ll note I never reply to you, all I ask is that you don’t post lies and abuse in reply to me.
Perhaps if you went on a bike ride instead of making the excuse that the roads are too dangerous your attitude would improve.
A bit touchy young Nigel!
A bit touchy young Nigel!
Nige Nige Nige maybe if you
Nige Nige Nige maybe if you didn’t continiually Sea lion then people may be prepared to engage. But then wheres the fun in that eh? You Tw*t.
Would prefer the silence. One
Would prefer the silence. One of his obvious “provoke” points and not one reply after it is better then anything on here. He will then start to get into a tizzy about it and hopefully leave in a huff, probably after claiming cyber-bullying for the nth time and five more name changes.
I know crash for cash is a
I know crash for cash is a thing, but the idea is to have a crash and claim compensation for injuries you don’t have, not for injuries that are very real.
The idea that anyone would cause a collsion with a car deliberately when they were on a bike is farcical. Surely to make this decision the CPS must have reviewed the dashcam footage from the car? Amazing that it was not presented at the trial to convince the magistrates.
Two things that the article
Two things that the article fails to mention:
1) A Met police officer driving behind claims he witnessed Mr Crompton deliberately braking in front of the driver. This sounds like nonsense, but might explain why the CPS prosecuted. However, the witness didn’t bother to show up in court.
2) Mr Loophole took on the case pro bono. Whilst I don’t like his views on cycling in general, I have to give him credit for that.
Thanks for the clarification,
Thanks for the clarification, and hopefully the article can be amended to include your important detail.
Thank you for this. Would
Thank you for this. Would you mind sharing the source of the info?
Sure, they’re from posts made
Sure, they’re from posts made to the Lewisham Cyclists Facebook group by Paul Crompton himself yesterday.
AidanR wrote:
WTF?
He managed to see Mr Crompton applying the brakes through Mr Pipe’s car
Impressive, isn’t it? I guess
Impressive, isn’t it? I guess coppers must have superior senses to us mere mortals.
Is that the guy who waited
Is that the guy who waited until the defendent had placed his bike against the car and take a photo before he got out of his car to approach in the picture above?
Also did he not want to commit perjury in court or just couldn’t be bothered to attend as part of the legal system?
You mean you don’t have a
You mean you don’t have a high level brake light fitted to your bike, shame on you.
wycombewheeler wrote:
WTF?
He managed to see Mr Crompton applying the brakes through Mr Pipe’s car— AidanR
Amazing, especially when according to our Nige a driver can’t be expected to see a cyclist if there is another, slightly larger, cyclist in between them.
wycombewheeler wrote:
WTF?
He managed to see Mr Crompton applying the brakes through Mr Pipe’s car— AidanR
He probably saw a red light flash at the back of the bicycle. Must have been a brake light, right?
AidanR wrote:
Thanks for additional info. The source of the first part would be interesting. I wonder if that comes back to the driver and “me and my invisible friends” – otherwise a) as mentioned how could he have seen the cyclist braking (if the cyclist was so close that Mr Crompton “had no time to react” as he says) and b) with a police witness I’m amazed that the prosecution didn’t make more effort to get them heard (e.g. if they weren’t there do all they could to hunt them down, apply to reschedule etc.)
Same source – Paul Crompton
Same source – Paul Crompton on Facebook. I was just being lazy and only screenshotted the 2nd part.
Thanks! Alas the mystery
Thanks! Alas the mystery continues – we don’t know if this chap popped up at the scene offering his services or Paul Crompton is reporting that he’s heard that there is same (eg. as reported via driver / lawyers). So all we can say is “Not in court so didn’t happen”…
The presumption is that the
The presumption is that the CPS prosecuted due to a Met copper providing witness of the cyclist brake checking the motorist; to those who think this couldn’t possibly be so, I have seen quite a few dashcam videos showing just that sort of scenario and as a former traffic cop, I developed the ability to accurately assess vehicle speed before my speed checking device confirmed the speed, which is typical of most traffic cops; so I don’t doubt the ability of a cop to notice a cyclist in frontal view, suddenly braking without good reason.
grOg wrote:
If you actually read more carefully, you’ll see that the officer was behind the car which struck the cyclist, i.e. diametrically opposed to a frontal view. At best s/he could have seen perhaps the cyclist’s head, or maybe an obscured view through the two panes of glass of the involved vehicle’s windscreens. Quite how the officer was able to judge that the defendant braked hard from that viewpoint is anybody’s guess; the fact the officer did not appear in court and that their evidence doesn’t even appear to have been cited by the prosecution speaks volumes as to credibility.
grOg wrote:
As they didn’t turn up as a witness, their observations are surely irrelevant. It does sound to me as though the involvement of a cop as a witness is probably why this went to court.
AidanR wrote:
Bastard. Braking on purpose. How dare he?
Captain Badger wrote:
Bastard. Braking on purpose. How dare he?— AidanR
It’s very rare for me to ever brake by accident…
Out here in the fens we
Out here in the fens we rarely brake at all. The 360 degree head wind is usually sufficient to stop you.
AidanR wrote:
Whilst he may not have charged the client, we do not know from this story whether he applied for a costs order upon the acquittal and then submitted a claim for costs to be paid from central funds.
I particularly like the
I particularly like the description in the original article of the damage to the wheel as a ‘dent’.
It’s wonderful how he gets
It’s wonderful how he gets celebrated for winning a case that Lionel Hutz could have won…..
I’m sure Nigel will be happy to see me highlight one of his old quotes.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/mr-loophole-hyman-steinberg-court-7212080
Where he had the gall to say “if the pedestrian was wearing HI-Viz” the driver would have seen him
Wearing brightly coloured
Wearing brightly coloured clothing at night allows pedestrians to be seen more easily. How is that even controversial?
Garage at Large wrote:
So lets see whats controversial. A driver commits a crime of causing death by careless driving including driving in excess of the speed limit in an urban area (30mph – therefore has a legal requirement for street lights) yet your hero comes out with the gem that the pedestrian should be wearing Hi-Viz.
It’s controversial in a few ways – firstly it attempts to suggest that the pedestrian was partly at fault for the careless driving perpetrated by the motorist. As opposed to actually accepting that the driver was to blame. Edit his argument was that the Rabbi dressed in black clothing was invisible to the driver, despite the street lighting.
Secondly… he “called on the government to ‘require’ pedestrians to ‘light up’ at night.”, now bear in mind this was in response to a fatal accident in an area which is covered by street lighting. Having a requirement for all pedestrians to light up in a street lit area would be entirely counter productive by introducing a sea of reflective/brightly coloured pedestrians milling about at the side of the road none of which would stand out.
I agree that, at face value,
I agree that, at face value, the report looks controversial. However, you must remember that you’re not looking at primary evidence, it’s a report created by the Manchester Evening News to sell newspapers.
The actual quote attributed to Nick Freeman was “Pedestrians along with motorists and cyclists all share road space, and in my view therefore must assume some responsibility to ensure their visibility.” I think that sounds broadly correct – if I go for a jog at night, I ensure that I wear something reflective and highly visible.
If I instead wear black clothing in a badly lit area and get hit by a car that was otherwise travelling legally and paying attention, then in my view I have contributed to the accident.
In the case of the report, the driver is at fault as he was clearly not paying attention and speeding, and indeed he pleaded guilty – presumably on the advice of Mr Freeman. I think Mr Freeman’s point about visibility was therefore more broad than implied by the article.
Garage at Large wrote:
Sorry Nigel. Let’s put the full quote not your selectively edited version of his quotes
The actual quote was “I’m not suggesting everyone must wear a hi-viz jacket, but something reflective that would give them a visible presence, such as a vest, arm bands or belt. Pedestrians along with motorists and cyclists all share road space, and in my view therefore must assume some responsibility to ensure their visibility. Sadly, because he was ‘invisible’, Mr Steinberg has lost his life”
And yet again you are making things up to try and justify your argument…. “If I instead wear black clothing in a badly lit area “…… but Nick Freeman’s quotes were NOT made in response to a pedestrian being killed in a badly lit area. They were made in response to someone killed in a well lit residential area.
So why is Mr Freeman suggesting that pedestrians in well lit residential areas should wear something reflective?
He’s suggesting pedestrians
He’s suggesting pedestrians should wear something reflective at night because they will be safer in such circumstances. I think we’ve already trodden the path as to why that is the case. I don’t see any reference in what Mr Freeman said as to whether the area where it occurred was well-lit or not, or whether the area was residential, so I’m assuming that’s speculation on your part. However, regardless of street lighting, I don’t believe it’s a controversial to assert that it’s more difficult to see pedestrians at night than during the day. A pedestrian dressed from head-to-toe in black at night is clearly less visible than one wearing day-glo.
As I’ve already pointed out, the driver – who was represented and advised by Mr Freeman’s firm – pled guilty in the case, and so admitted full criminal liability for what happened. I therefore don’t see any aspect of “victim-blaming” that you’re keen to push. Mr Freeman, as a road safety expert, is merely dispensing general advice on safety at night to the general public.
Garage at Large wrote:
Not speculation on my point just using common sense. The report provided the street where the victim lived and where they were going. And a simple look on google maps shows that the Synagogue that the Rabbi was walking to was one street away from where the victim lived. And street view shows that the area has plentiful street lights.
Mr Freeman was making the statements as part of his post trial press reports. Therefore in this instance 1 and 1 makes 2 not the 7 you want it to
Garage at Large wrote:
Is that part of being a lawyer, nowadays?
brooksby wrote:
No that’s part and parcel of being a road safety expert, which as we know is Mr Freeman’s second speciality.
Garage at Large wrote:
His first speciality is victim blaming, but not according to you. However his own words disagree with you.
Mr Freeman said “because he was ‘invisible’, Mr Steinberg has lost his life.”
Please tell me how that statement is not victim blaming… his words put a direct correlation between the fact that he was killed and the fact that he was wearing black
So Freeman suggested that an
So Freeman suggested that an elderly Jewish man ought to have been wearing something such as an armband to make himself visible. And would welcome a government making this a requirement. Kin ell.
markieteeee wrote:
Indeed. Perhaps some sort of hi-viz star could have been suggested.
Freeman clearly has zero awareness
Garage at Large wrote:
If you are driving to the conditions (eg 20 on dry residential roads at night for example) You will see and be able to stop for anyone dressed in dark clothing. We should not be building a world (oh too late) where the car is king and we must do all we can to protect ourselves. The car should be a guest and be driven accordingly. A sane driver does not collide with inanimate unlit objects. Though social media it seems highlights alot of insanity!
visionset wrote:
Can we throw rocks and things, as a pre-emptive act of self defence?
brooksby wrote:
Only if we are very annoyed, or have the red mist….
Captain Badger wrote:
…and driving a car.
brooksby wrote:
Can we throw rocks and things, as a pre-emptive act of self defence?
Although that obviously
Although that obviously supposes the person was not looking at their phone at the time. I wonder if the GPS of the phone being changed whilst a text is being sent is an ability the Police could use?
And also, again, the Court and CPS accepting driving 12 mph over the posted limit in a residential street when people might be obscured in darkness is careless and not dangerous. Sounds like £10k well spent by the dangerous driver.
Sorry but that is simply
Sorry but that is simply untrue. By your logic, cars would also not need any lights at night as they are ‘inanimate objects’. It seems blindingly obvious (pardon the pun) that objects are impossible to see in complete darkness unless illuminated in some way! Not even a reasonably competent driver can evade the laws of physics. That is not the same as holding pedestrians responsible for a collision.
Visionset was not talking
Visionset was not talking about areas of complete darkness; it’s a residential area lit by streetlamps. People who choose to drive through at night are required to do so with lights on and according to the conditions. This is not controversial.
Just as cars ought not crash into fence posts, trees and all of the other unlit objects on their route, the same standard of driving ought to avoid slow-moving humans too. There was no claim that the man was an inanimate object, just that responsible driving reduces road violence. Even Freeman’s fanboys aren’t screaming for every single object on or alongside a street to be hi-viz (yet), even if it very much fits their victim-blaming position.
Parked cars are indeed inanimate objects and do not require lights on at night, even when parked on the road or roadside.
markieteeee wrote:
Entirely agree with your points, but just on a point of order:
Rule 249
All vehicles MUST display parking lights when parked on a road or a lay-by on a road with a speed limit greater than 30 mph (48 km/h).
True. I was thinking about
True. I was thinking about residential streets in general and the road in the article, which is 30mph
Some time ago, I was driving
Some time ago, I was driving at a legal speed, along a side road at night, so not brilliantly lit but with streetlights, when a male suddenly appeared in my headlights, crossing the road.. I swerved just in time to miss hitting him; it was very close to this bloke becoming grille furniture, with only my good reaction saving him from serious injury or death; no question, the pedestrian would have been completely at fault if that had occurred.
grOg wrote:
Probably not.
You are required to drive to the conditions. One of the conditions of this case is that you are in a built up area where there are likely to be pedestrians, and another is that visibility is poorer than in daytime. A third is that other road users often don’t wear what we might wish then to.
The “male” (not sure the relevance of your perception of the gender here) did not “appear”, but traversed into the road in the usual manner, obeying Newton’s laws of motion. What you mean is you failed to see them until the last second, and were going at such a speed that coming to a stop was not even considered – “legal speed” is not necessarily safe speed, as demonstrated aptly in your account.
This situation is largely down to you not looking out for other road users – you have the means of killing people, it is for you to ensure you don’t.
I’m not condemning you for your initial situation. I imagine most drivers can relate a similar story, myself included.
The difference is the take away. Mine would be “slow down and pay more attention especially at night”
Yours seems to be that you heroically and selflessly saved a life, your driving style doesn’t need reviewing cos reactions, and if/when the situation occurs again it’s someone else’s fault.
Drivel, there is no rule that
Drivel, there is no rule that says you have to drive at less than 30mph at night, just like there is no law (unlike the French) that you have to slow down when it’s raining. As long as you aren’t driving in a careless or dangerous manner (like in this case) and obey the law you are fine.
I think the context is where
I think the context is where you would expect a pedestrian to be; on a footpath or a pedestrian crossing, there’s no expectation for a pedestrian to have a responsibility legally to wear reflective items but if a pedestrian chooses to be in the roadway otherwise, eg jogging along the road or jaywalking, then they should share responsibility for being hit by a motorist who is legally driving along the road.
Why do you write about the
Why do you write about the laws in a country you don’t live in ?
There is no jay walking and pedestrians can cross anywhere. Drivers should expect pedestrians to cross and use the road at any point and it is their job not to hit the pedestrian.
hirsute wrote:
Translation: “Shut up, foreigner”.
Grog, your views will always be welcome here in the Garage household – ignore the xenophobe
A bit like drivers that get
A bit like drivers that get away with killing cyclists because they were momentarily blinded by a setting or rising sun, when they in fact are admitting they drove without due care and attention by not driving to the prevailing conditions, ie, slow down when visibility is restricted by sun, fog, etc. Personally, there is no way I would ride a bicycle on a public road where oncoming vision is affected by blinding sunlight.. not the sort of dice I want to roll.
Colours don’t really work in
Colours don’t really work in the dark.
Cars have headlights and
Cars have headlights and roads have streetlights..
Garage at Large wrote:
The same applies to all the car drivers who fail to turn their lights on at night, or the ones who drive dull grey cars on overcast days.
Well there’s lots of evidence
Well there’s lots of evidence that driving grey / low visibility cars causes crashes, so perhaps you have a point. I have a white car, which have the best statistics in terms of visibility and accidents.
Garage at Large wrote:
There is also lots of evidence of Garage at Large being so smitten with his love for Nick Freeman that he won’t accept that Mr Freeman has attempted to blame the victim of one of his upstanding clients for their death. When it gets pointed out to him Garage at Large just buries his head in the sand.
Mr Freeman said “Sadly, because he was ‘invisible’, Mr Steinberg has lost his life.” which is straight up victim blaming. Hell, he never even tried to argue it was a contributory factor…. just a straight forward statment which is Mr Steinberg was killed because he was wearing black.
There is also lots of evidence that Garage at Large makes stuff up to attempt to further his points. When it gets pointed out to him…. he goes silent on it….. or tries to say that his statements were taken out of context.
For example he knew that a set of 4 way temporary traffic lights were broken from a 30 second clip where the lights from the viewpoint of a cyclist were at red. He didn’t say he thought they were broken… he KNEW they were broken
Well, that is quite
Well, that is quite extraordinary. His client pleaded guilty to causing death by dangerous driving by doing 42 in a 30 and was given a jail term (albeit suspended) and ban, and Freeman still said it was the elderly gentleman’s fault (“Sadly, because he was ‘invisible’, Mr Steinberg has lost his life”).
It would be interesting to see Freeman in other criminal cases beyond traffic law, wouldn’t it? “Your honour, although my client did randomly fire an Uzi down the street, the fact remains that if Mr.Smith had put on a kevlar vest before leaving the house the bullets would not have killed him; sadly, because he neglected to take this precaution, he lost his life.”
ETA in full support of your point and in contradiction of anyone stupid/desperate enough to claim that we don’t know if the area was residential or well lit, here is the scene, Leicester Road, Broughton, with, as we can see, standard streetlighting. I daresay some idiot will still say “How do we know it was on at the time?”
Rendel Harris wrote:
Exactly the point made by Mark Treasure in this excellent blog post:
https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2018/03/28/from-the-specific-to-the-general/
marmotte27 wrote:
Thanks for that link – there’s some excellent arguments made on that blog.
I am SO conflicted about this
I am SO conflicted about this story…
brooksby wrote:
It feels so wrong but it feels so right….
LOL!
LOL!
Dire Straits, Expresso Love:
Well I feel so good because I feel so good
And I feel so good because it feels so right
I was made to go with my girl
Just like a saxophone was made to go with the night
You’re showing you age now…
You’re showing you age now…
I can feel a revisit of Making Movies in the not too distant future!
Dire Straits: timeless.
Dire Straits: timeless.
Going to listen, too.
Is it April 1st already?
Is it April 1st already?
eburtthebike wrote:
Felt like I was in the Twilight Zone reading this article…
Hopefully the first of many
Hopefully the first of many more, leading to Mr Loophole being able to change his terrible nickname to something more rightous where he is ensuring that dangerous drivers are properly prosecuted and their victims properly compensated. But I doubt it, I sense this will lead onto something like ‘see, I do look after cyclists and I think they should wear helmets and hi-viz to protect them from 2 tons of metal smashing into them’. I wonder, if having seen the damage a car does to the bike at only 5mph , if he will change his opinion that a polystyrene helmet will protect the rider from a car travelling at 40mph? As an aside, I’m flabbergasted that the CPS thought the cyclist should be prosecuted unless they had good video evidence of the incident. But even then they mostly regard video evidence as being insufficent (cyclist close passes). I wonder where Mr Pipe used to work…
Brake checking is actually a
Brake checking is actually a traffic offence but you are correct that prosecution without independent witness evidence is ridiculous, when you consider the normal course of events would be the motorist colliding into the rear of another vehicle be found at fault for the collision. I was defending myself in a civil case where a woman that collided with the rear of my parked car while attempting to pass, had told her insurer that I had reversed into her; I pointed out that her car was on the wrong side of the road at the point of collision, clearly showing she was passing my stationary car but to no avail; the ancient male magistrate decided that the middle aged lady was truthful and the 18 yr old male was lying..
Has anyone had the courage to
Has anyone had the courage to dip into Heil’s comments section? Must be confusing for them. To have one of their anti-cycling heroes who they went out and “defended” a cyclist who was definitely at fault just for being on the road must be confusing. Extra points on the bingo if anyone mentions Channel 4 as well as a derogatory reason.
I note Nick Freeman has
I note Nick Freeman has sprinkled a bit of his stardust on Road.cc by name checking this article on Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/TheMrLoophole/status/1479427717372252163?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Fantastic to get this recognition – wouldn’t it be great to have him on a road.cc podcast or catch-up, where I’m sure he would convince many of the nay-sayers of his wholesome and positive intentions regarding road safety and cycling safety?
Nick, you know fuck all about
Nick, you know fuck all about cycle safety. If you cycled to work during peak times instead of being chauffeured, you would learn what safety measures are needed. Guess what? Getting dangerous drivers off criminal charges by exploiting loopholes is the exact opposite of what is needed to improve cycle safety, you tosser.
Nigel not equal to Nick
Nigel not equal to Nick (although one is generally bigging up the other). But agreed – may be worth listening to lawyers on their view of road law but they’re certainly no more “expert” on “road safety” (cycles or otherwise) than lawyers, civil engineers, politicians or the police. Blind men and elephants and all.
Considering the ‘use a thief
Considering the ‘use a thief to catch a thief’ rationale, getting a formidable enemy to swap sides is no bad thing..
Then you have fallen for the
Then you have fallen for the hype.
Garage at Large wrote:
I note how you think that posting on his twitter feed a short video following a small group of cyclists on winding country roads, decrying the cyclists for not riding single file saying that “Took this video(from passenger seat) on 60mph road. Forced to travel in line of traffic at 20mph due to obstruction caused by cyclists ahead riding 3 abreast. Anonymous and cycling with impunity. Law should be changed to force them to drop into single file when vehicles behind” show he has positive intentions regarding road and cycling safety.
Despite the fact that it was pointed out that nowhere was it safe to travel at 60mph on the road in question, nowhere during the short clip was it safe to overtake cyclists due to repeated 90 degree bends in the road. And if the group had been forced to drop into single file as he suggests ….. it would have been equally unsafe to overtake, if not more unsafe to overtake as they would have had to be on the wrong side of the road for longer.
Or how about the “spoof” video where he rolls out anti-cycling bingo accusing cyclists of riding through 20mph school zones at 60mph amongst others to
enhance road safetystir up anti-cycling hatred… all the while he specialises in getting people off on speeding charges…. for exampleIf Nick Freeman was so concerned about road safety surely he would be working with the government to ensure the Loopholes he frequently exploits are closed, rather than working with people who are serial offenders to get them to keep their driving licence.
One of these days the renowned road safety expert that you think he is will no doubt be in the news when one of the clients he has kept on the roads puts someone in hospital or kills them.
But Mr Freeman *has*
But Mr Freeman *has* frequently campaigned to have these loopholes closed. There’s a plethora of information, indeed newspaper articles that he wrote himself on closing loopholes, retesting people over 70 etc. A whole range of sensible and proportionate measures for road safety.
You just have to open your eyes and read it – you might learn something!
Garage at Large wrote:
Your defense of Nick Freeman is laughable. He is akin to a donor to an “Environmental Charity” spending most of their time jetting around the world in their private jet and driving their fleet of expensive petrol supercars as if one balances out the other. Do as I say don’t do as I do.
Has Nick Freeman ever once suggested any road safety measures of any worth.
His idea of sensible and proportionate measures for road safety are make cycling so utterly prohibitive then no one will want to do it.
You need to do more research
You need to do more research on Nick Freeman rather than believe the picture being painted here by cyclists who don’t like him because they themselves are reckless law breakers.
Nick has campaigned on many of the points you raised, I’ll leave it for you to look them all up.
For example https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6332745/Celeb-lawyer-Mr-Loophole-says-bad-law-allowing-dangerous-drivers-stay-road-change.html.
Do more research
Garage at Large wrote:
I’ve just done some more research on him
So do you agree with his stance on upskirting? As I have said one or two good things don’t make a good person
https://twitter.com/TheMrLoophole/status/1007573280096751616?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1007957600397340672%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-3081335564656871840.ampproject.net%2F2111242025001%2Fframe.html
Dare I say more proof that he is a victim blamer?
I’m not here to defend every
I’m not here to defend every single thing Nick Freeman (or anyone else for that matter) has said or written in their entire life, and I think in that case it was clumsily written.
The point holds that if you actively do things to make yourself less safe, then if something bad happens you’ve contributed to your own downfall. I don’t see that as controversial at all.
Garage at Large wrote:
Oh Nigel, you are vehemently against riding two abreast, which is widely recognised as being a safer way to cycle when you ride in a group….. but somehow you agree with Mr Loophole that riding two abreast should be demonised.
I mean if I am cycling in a group on a road where riding in primary position or riding two abreast is safer for the cyclists, and we move into single file as you and Nick Freeman think cyclists should. Then a driver makes an ill advised attempt at overtaking the group of cyclists, bails out half way through and wipes out one of the group… what in your opinion is safer, is abjectly unsafe….. but yet you continue to bleat about riding two abreast or in groups.
And I will bring this one up again.
You want to give the police power to stop groups of more than 4 cyclists and seize their bikes and sell them at auction. Do you still hold that viewpoint?
Garage at Large wrote:
Clumsily written? Is that all? I guess I’ll have to assume that you agree with the underlying sentiment that women should accept being violated by strangers as the cost of wearing a skirt, and that prosecuting perverts and sex offenders is a waste of the courts’ time.
Wingguy wrote:
I refer to my previous quote about Nigel….
So he uses the same arguments in defence of Nick Freeman. Clumsily written is just another way of Nigel trying to say that Nick never meant what he tweeted……
However, the fact that his tweet is still live on his Twitter feed shows that is exactly what he believes. If he thought differently he would have deleted the tweet.
Garage at Large wrote:
So please enlighten myself and others on this forum who have all gone out our way to make ourselves visible with kit, reflectors and decent lights and yet some of us have been left with life changing physical and mental trauma due to the inability of motorists to see us. The same motorists consistently demonstrate their inability to make use of an empty lane 2 or oncoming lane. The same motorists sit less than a car length from our back wheel. They overtake on blind bends in the dark. They undertake when you move right out to the line due to the shoddy surface that even a gravel bike would struggle with. They enter/exit single lane roundabouts when we are on them or joining/exiting All things I was taught not to do when learning to drive 35 years ago.
So please. Tell us why all this crap happens to me and the others on a daily basis when we cycle responsibly and dress appropriately Stats consistently demonstrate that the motorist is the greatest contributor to KSI’s on our roads and yet gets away scot free. I don’t dispute that there are irresponsible peds and cyclists out there. The onus though is on the motorist to be continually making risk assessments while they’re behind the wheel and not switch to auto pilot.
You can be perfect in your
You can be perfect in your conduct but just be unlucky in what happens to you – no one denies that. I myself have been close passed although fortunately never hit by a car when out on my bike, and I understand that some motorists’ conduct is simply unacceptable. That’s why Nick Freeman has campaigned to strengthen the law around all forms of transport, including car drivers by proposing several loophole-closing legislation changes such as changing the oft-abused “totting up” and “exceptional hardship” arguments, regular retests for people of the age of 70, and other interventions to make the roads safer. Anyone of a sound mind agrees with you.
However, that doesn’t mean that other cyclists can’t do more to keep themselves and others safe. If you have other cyclists who ignore traffic controls, the highway code, ride without lights at night, etc, then they are putting themselves in danger. If they are abusive to others as they ride or ride in a dangerous fashion, they are tarnishing the image of cycling, undermining the goal of diversifying the cycling case, and making the roads more dangerous for everyone, you and I included.
You wouldn’t go out into a thunderstorm with a metal umbrella and stand under a tree would you? The same is true of going out at night in black clothing on a dimly lit street, it’s about minimising risk. Take control of what you can control
Garage at Large wrote:
Seriously Nigel?
You began your comment so well…. You really should have just stopped after your first sentence.
Then you descended into your Nick Freeman Loveathon anti-cyclist bingo/whataboutery ending with your personal favourite of going out at night wearing black….. Yet you get all defensive when cyclists point out that the very things drivers accuse cyclists of doing…. drivers do as well.
I mean you STILL wont admit that you lied about the fact that you KNEW the lights in the Thursday blog post were broken. You expressed your opinion as fact, a fact that could not be proved.
You still haven’t explained
You still haven’t explained to me why I and others have been left with life changing mental and physical injuries even while we take the appropriate steps to protect ourselves. All you have done is deflect your answer back to those who are irresponsible cyclists.
All Mr Freeman does is fan the flames of intolerance that motorists hold towards cyclists especially those who cannot think critically or objectively.
I again refer to my driving lessons where it was impressed on me by both my father and instructor that I had great responsibility due to my operating a piece of machinery of greater weight, horsepower and less agility than those on foot or two wheels. This has stuck with me all the years I’ve been driving and I struggle to understand why many motorists fail to follow the most basic concepts of care, consideration and courtesy.
So please. Answer my original question of why motorists fail to see visible, considerate cyclists and go out of their way to bully them off the public roads.
You won’t get an answer from
You won’t get an answer from Nigel. He will continually deflect and lie because he himself wants to flame the fans of intolerance, and when he gets called out on his nonsense he claims that he is being bullied or his words get taken out of context.
An important life lesson that
An important life lesson that everyone should know is that you can only control what you can control.
Motorists are people. Some people are idiots, whereas most are perfectly law abiding citizens. Of course we want dangerous drivers to be taken off the road, and that’s what the law aims for, but it’s an imperfect system where some people who shouldn’t be driving are able to drive as they either flout the law or haven’t been caught.
So to answer your statement, you’ve unfairly homogenised all motorists in your head as a single law-breaking monolith, much in the same way as some drivers homogenise all cyclists into aggressive, angry large pelotons of overweight white men who malevolently hold up everyone else by riding inconsiderately across the entire highway.
While it would be ideal to remove terrible / aggressive / dangerous drivers off the road, we cannot always do this efficiently as we don’t know who they all are, and we cannot simply ban driving, which is the only way much of society can function.
Garage at Large wrote:
also you
Which is it to be? Are we to be responsible only for the things we can control….. or for the actions of all cyclists? I’m confused
We’re on a cycling website
We’re on a cycling website which is presumably read by quite a lot of other cyclists. If I can act as a positive role model for others and influence their behaviour I will do, but I do understand the limitations of that influence.
We are clearly not responsible for things outside our control, that would be ridiculous. My point wasn’t that we can control everything, but to understand that the way other cyclists behave (or misbehave) influences other people’s perceptions, and therefore impacts on how I -myself – am viewed when I’m out on a ride
Garage at Large wrote:
Positive role model?
Last time I checked positive role model’s don’t make stuff up, especially not as often as you do.
You still haven’t accepted that you made up the whole “I know the traffic lights weren’t working”….. or that you made up that the woman who was subject to the vile abuse at the hands of a deranged cyclist was “Suffering from PTSD” when the news article you quoted said she was distressed.
If you wan’t I will go back further and find more instances of you making stuff up.
TriTaxMan wrote:
Positive role model?
Last time I checked positive role model’s don’t make stuff up, especially not as often as you do.
You still haven’t accepted that you made up the whole “I know the traffic lights weren’t working”….. or that you made up that the woman who was subject to the vile abuse at the hands of a deranged cyclist was “Suffering from PTSD” when the news article you quoted said she was distressed.
If you wan’t I will go back further and find more instances of you making stuff up.— Garage at Large
From last week there was the lie that “With Omicron there is little to no difference in terms of infection or spread whether you are vaccinated or not” when the evidence clearly shows a vaccine effectiveness over 50% after 3 doses for 8 weeks and possibly longer”
I also remember another covid thread where he claimed the risk from the vaccine was equivalent to the risk of long covid – and was out by 4 orders of magnitude…
With Omicron there is little
With Omicron there is little to no difference in terms of infection or spread whether you are vaccinated or not. It can’t be a lie if it’s a fact.
You enjoy getting 7 boosters a year on top of your vaccines though, if it makes you feel happy for… checks notes… an alleged 50% booster effectiveness against Omicron. I’d personally contend that you’d be far better served doing something about your BMI – the average ICU patient with COVID has a BMI of over 30.
You will recall a couple of months ago, cyclingmikey calling himself “fully vaccinated cyclingmikey”. To confirm, was he fully vaccinated or wasn’t he?
Garage at Large wrote:
Oh wrong again Nigel. It isnt a fact; you yourself posted an article that links to a study proving you wrong. And your reading comprehension is as bad as ever.
I get the fact that you don’t understand what a peer reviewed scientific paper is, and therefore this debate is sadly one sided, but thank you for reminding me of another of your covid related mistakes/lies as you have repeatedly failed to grasp the nature of the J shaped curve relating BMI to covid.
If cyclingmikey had 2 doses of vaccine he was vaccinated against the delta (and many other) variant of covid. If he had 3 he was vaccinated against omicron as well. Not too hard to understand surely??
This is – sadly – false.
This is – sadly – false. “Fully vaccinated” according to https://www.gov.uk/guidance/countries-with-approved-covid-19-vaccination-programmes-and-proof-of-vaccination (i.e. the official government website), means having 2 doses of the mainstream UK vaccines.
The UK government definition overrules your fake definition I’m afraid.
As for ICUs, there are official statistics for BMI from the ICNARC, which is responsible for health statistics. This showed an average BMI of 30.2 across the last six months of 2021 for ICU admissions for COVID.
Garage at Large wrote:
Ah yes the notoriously unreliable BMI whic looks at height vs weight and nothing else. I could pick plenty of elite athletes who have BMI at or in excess of 30.
Ah yes…. how would you propose people do that? They could perhaps join a cycling club. Nope you don’t want that…. Remember you want to give the police powers to seize and sell bikes if people go out in groups of more than 4 which coincidentally would ban social rides and school bike trains for example.
You do realise that the social aspect is part of the reason that a lot of people cycle but you think everyone should be a sad bitter loner when they go out on their bike and should only go out if it is a worthwhile journey.
Are you now saying that a leisure ride in order to lose weight is something you agree with? Or do you want to add caveats such as only solo riders who are only allowed to ride on very quiet roads and if the are approached by a vehicle they should immediately stop and climb off their bike and bow to their motoring overlord?
I think this is a cunning
I think this is a cunning scheme to reduce congestion of the park and bike kind. Everyone leaves their car in car parks around the edges of big connurbations. They then simply cycle – singly – to their car. Thereby reducing congestion, pollution, obviating the need for inflammatory LTNs and incidentally fulfilling the all important “genuine journey” criterion. They can then drive wherever they have work, shopping, picking up the kids, dropping in on the relatives, accessing medical services – all those things that you can’t do by bike. If use of the bike were limited to certain times of the day you wouldn’t even need to have an unpleasant encounter with a discourteous cyclist en-route either! Except for the lagging slow or unfit who you’d be doing everyone a favour if you flattened.
Garage at Large wrote:
Ooh Nigel you’re a queer one aren’t you? I get my definitions from dictionaries not government websites. According the the OED vaccination means “The inoculation of an individual with any vaccine in order to induce or increase immunity”. Therefore if they do not have immunity they are not vaccinated.
So your original statement is incorrect with regards to Omicron as either
A. 2 doses as per the UK schedule do induce immunity vs omicron so you are wrong or
B. 2 doses do not induce immunity and therefore people are not vaccinated vs omicron (but 3 do) and you are again wrong.
Also I am interested as to why you picked ICU admission and not mortality for your point around BMI.
What relationship does mortality show with respect to BMI?
I suspect you know you are wrong about your statements on BMI vs covid risk but are just unwilling to admit it. I’m not sure why though as you have been proven wrong so many times now that you should be used to it surely?
Garage at Large wrote:
I can almost go with you at the start (!) but the differences are rather important and I’ve highlighted – at the cost of this being a bore now:
…you can only control what you can control.
Motorists are people. Some people are idiots, whereas most more or less follow laws. More where they know about them, can understand them and don’t feel that they are irrelevant, petty and / or there are no consequences to breaking them in which case they very often don’t obey them. Of course we want dangerous drivers to be taken off the road, and that’s what the law aims for, but it’s an imperfect system. Indeed the system is – and most people are – generally biased to consider driving the norm and other modes of transport on the road as “lower status / only there as ‘guests'”. We consider road “accidents” as inevitable. Breaking certain laws and driving in a manner that would lead to a failure of the driving test is judged to be not just standard but only fair – because once you’ve “earned” your licence you have a right to drive for the rest of your life. It would be an excessive hardship to limit that for very long. Also some people who shouldn’t be driving are able to drive as they either flout the law or haven’t been caught. This is because we don’t prioritise these crimes due to the biases noted above. Not only do we not pro-actively consider the licence of people with e.g. health issues who should not be driving. There is almost never any feedback for dangerous drivers to become aware they’re dangerous – or haven’t kept up with changes in law – until a crash. Finally again motorists are people and people occasionally make terrible, inexplicable mistakes, don’t pay attention when carrying out habitual activities etc. so even “perfectly law abiding citizens” will collide with each other / other road users / the environment. When they’re driving a motor vehicle and make such a mistake the consequences to others can be drastic.
So (before I changed my statement) I guess I wasn’t really addressing your question as to why even when cyclists takes steps to protect themselves they are still harmed at all. Nor much why cyclists feel bullied. I think I was getting caught up in some kind of “us and them” dialogue, with me thinking the fundamental issue was the law – and I felt that this was “a given” and mostly OK as it is now. I felt that you unfairly homogenised all motorists in your head as a single law-breaking monolith, much in the same way as some drivers homogenise all cyclists into aggressive, angry large pelotons of overweight white men who malevolently hold up everyone else by riding inconsiderately across the entire highway. I even catch myself doing this sometimes!
While it would be ideal to remove terrible / aggressive / dangerous drivers off the road, we cannot always do this efficiently as we don’t know who they all are, and we cannot simply ban driving, which is the only way much of society can function. Luckily as with much of life this is actually a false dualism and there are signs that it is slowly beginning to be made irrelevant. Society is changing – as it always does – on multiple levels. We have recently had a rather major change in our travel patterns, not least with commuting. Through this and other current issues we can start recognising that we have over-prioritised driving as a mode of transport – and it’s not making us all happier, healthier or wealthier. However we can start changing to more appropriate modes immediately – indeed this is relatively simple and inexpensive. Getting more people out of cars and onto other modes of transport allows a virtuous circle to come in to being. This can facilitate fewer journeys by car, better driving, demonstrate the benefits of changing the infrastructure (and legal system) to prioritise safety and convenience for all on our roads and even make it simpler to enforce it!
In all fairness I haven’t
In all fairness I haven’t homogenised motorists into one guilty monolith. My only crime is my poor grammar and lack of indefinite pronouns. I would have hoped that you would have picked up on that from other posts that I have made in the past. I’ve pretty much made a determined effort to make the distinction between responsible and irresponsible motorists.
Sadly as the country eases itself from the pandemic I have noticed as a road user regardless of whatever mode of transport I use on the public roads the skills and attitudes of many motorists have shockingly deteriorated. This last few days has seen some horrific instances which would have earned an automatic fail if the individual was sitting their test at the time.
Society managed to get by quite successfully even up to 50/60 years ago without the motor car. People walked, cycled or bused everywhere. They were fitter and suffered less from obesity. While the car has been benificial to the modern era it has also been a curse in many ways.
They are not all guilty,
They are not all guilty, there is always that virtuous 15% who manage not to break the speed limit on 20mph limit roads.
Unfortunately a third of them become lawbreakers at the weekend…
Example of Good and Bad
Example of Good and Bad drivers in one section recently.
One of the dashcam videos I watched recently showed a car being driven along (speed shown as 28mph). The occupants were moaning about people not keeping to the speed limit with the following mini already caught up to them. Road turns to 50mph and car behind sales past them literally at the speed change sign. The cammers car goes up to 48mph and it is obvious the mini is going faster then 50. So cammer is going at speed limit and does not accelerate to the new speed limit until after the signs change which is text book driving especially as GPS speeds are normally shown as a lower then car speedomters
Comment in the section: Cammer moaning about people not keeping to the speed limit when they are going slower then it and holding up traffic. And then are travelling at 20mph slower then the speed limit. They are the bad drivers.
I said roads, generally they
I said roads, generally they are 20mph limit streets.
Garage at Large wrote:
Nick Freeman can control what he can control too.
No matter what he says about ‘road safety’ he has made an active choice to contribute to the dangers faced by vulnerable road users by fighting to keep dangerous drivers on the road. No one made him choose that line of work. No one made him boast about his supposed ability to do it well in order to get even more dangerous clients he can keep on the road.
Unless you can admit the blatantly obvious fact that Nick Freeman decided to build his professional career around fighting to make the roads less safe the there really is no common ground for anyone here to have a reasonable discussion with you.
Garage at Large wrote:
If you’re stood under a tree when it happens to get struck by lightning, holding a metal umbrella is likely to make precisely no difference to the outcome.
Much like your choice of clothing will have pretty much no effect if someone in a car isn’t looking where they’re going.
mdavidford wrote:
That is true but the best evidence available suggests you’re significantly less likely to be in a collision if you’re wearing bright clothing (or running daytime lights) so it likely has some effect.
I’m not arguing for these things to be mandatory but it’s worth knowing what works and what doesn’t so you can make an informed decision.
Wow, that’s quite a find. In
Wow, that’s quite a find. In case anyone hasn’t got Twitter, I’ll take the liberty of providing a screenshot.
To be fair, that’s not really
To be fair, that’s not really surprising. There’s likely only one person here that considers him not a complete waste of oxygen.
Rendel Harris wrote:
You are facking kidding me
Captain Badger wrote:
I had to actually google that cos I thought that nobody was that much of skank.
And to think that some people even admire the overgrown schoolboy….
“Hi Nick, my daughter wears
“Hi Nick, my daughter wears her skirt as her compulsory school uniform so well played victim blaming. I’ll show my 15 year old daughter your hot take and photo so she’ll know what an entitled dick head looks and sounds like.”
‘skankygelato’
I was going to bring up that
I was going to bring up that his victim blaming when his client had acted criminally on the roads was along the lines of blaming a woman for being sexually assaulted because she left the house in a skirt. However I thought that might be too crass. I never actually realised he had done that exact thing.
I thought just the same –
I thought just the same – never fails to disappoint, does he?
Rendel Harris wrote:
The best of it was…. it was at Nige’s request that I did a search on Google for “Nick Freeman Law Change”…. and that little gem came up, along with all of his other Cyclist Helmets/Tabards yadda yadda yadda petitions…. and the one Daily Heil article that he found was on about page 3 of the google search.
Sounds like Mr. Freeman might
Sounds like Mr. Freeman might be needing some groin protection himself with that kind of line. Let’s deploy Mannerly on that tweet:
This is totally unacceptable conduct. #upskirting
Better.
I’m sure Mr ‘Safety’ has
I’m sure Mr ‘Safety’ has loads of petitions out there for government debate and not just one. Of course he might just be doing newspaper articles in most cases for publicity and to try to cover the fact that most people see him as a Cnut who gets rich people off actual criminal acts that put other people in danger. Essentially the equivalent of Greenwashing like Ineos and all the other top polluting companies do. Now people have laughed at his Anti-cyclists “safety” videos he might even jump at some new publicity by representing a cyclist in a case that would have been laughed out of court anyway, then tweeting out all the news reports covering this.
” had braked suddenly in
” had braked suddenly in front of 74-year-old driver ”
Well if the age of the driver is an issue, then I look forward to the day when cars are colour-coded according to the age of the driver. Cyclists will know then know not to brake in front of purple and puce coloured cars.
zero_trooper’s rule of thumb…
zero_trooper’s rule of thumb…
If an article has over 50 comments, our Nige has been posting
Mr. Loophole wrote:
Cumulative time amassed in the comments – days. Thank god we’re all volunteers / generously funded by our employers / parents.