[kil0ran]

I recently swapped my Defy Advanced (carbon) for an aluminium Domane (because winter). The bike fit is almost identical on the Domane, and I’m rather foolishly still running summer wheels/rubber (Fulcrum DB4s with exposed bearings, GP4000s tyres) – same combo as I had on the Defy. There’s not a huge amount in it weight-wise and yet the Domane just feels so damn slow compared to the Defy. This is borne out by Strava times on my regular routes.

So what it is that makes a bike dull, slow, and lifeless? Or is it all in the mind and body of the fool pedalling it? Granted I’ve been off the bike for most of the month due to a virus but I wouldn’t expect to be over 2mph average slower on routes I’ve ridden for years. It just feels like the Domane needs more coals piling on constantly and doesn’t respond to increased effort in the way the Defy did.

Topic

[Judge dreadful]

The ‘short crank’ trend in

The ‘short crank’ trend in the pro pelotons is more about making it easier to maintain form / position on the bike, and therefore increasing aero gains, than anything else. Personally, I like shorter cranks, because injuries mean that my range of motion, particularly in my ankles, isn’t what it once was, and therefore I find that the more comfortable I am, the more I can increase my power. Unfortunately ( for me ) my best bike runs a Carbon chain / crankset, and they really aren’t cheap, so I’m making do with 172.5 mil, when my preference is for 170 mil. There are also big issues with supply chains at the moment, and 170 SR chain / cranksets are like hen’s teeth right now.

[belugabob]

Judge dreadful wrote:

Judge dreadful wrote:

No one in their right mind will ride on a wet road, with poor visibility, the way they ride on a dry road, with good visibility. .

I was thinking along similar lines, for driving in the current icy conditions, but it would appear that lots of motorists are not in their right minds.

[Judge dreadful]

A lot of the differences in

A lot of the differences in winter and summer riding, come down to conditions ( road and weather ). No one in their right mind will ride on a wet road, with poor visibility, the way they ride on a dry road, with good visibility. Add in the increased propensity for stronger gustier winds, and lower average temperatures during the winter months, and it all adds up to slower riding. As you ride faster in the winter, you ( tend to ) find that you’ll get colder quicker. Your muscles stiffen up, and ( without realising it ) you’re just not getting the figures you do in the summer. Winter kit tends to be more restrictive too. All in all, if you want to get summer speeds in winter, you have to push harder, and be braver ( more stupid ). If you can, get decent power meters, and base your efforts on NP, not speed. There’s a good reason for the saying “winter miles for summer smiles”.

[Awavey]

My winter bike is my summer
My winter bike is my summer bike, so it’s the same setup but I always suffer lower back problems in winter with it, even riding the same routes. Someone told me its just because its colder and your body just doesnt like spending hours in the cold and damp, and your back gets the worst of it, plus your weight changes both through excessive eating and fat retention to stave off the cold and you are inevitably more tired fighting off colds/flu viruses, plus I find it harder in colder air to breathe due to asthma, so it’s just harder efforts to ride in winter, generally takes more out of me and I’m largely slower most of the time.

[kil0ran]

Well, another ride for me

Well, another ride for me today and further improvement.

Now I need to work on finding a suitable bar tape for the wide tops of the Venturemax. I’m wondering if I might just use grip tape, or maybe even go retro and use Tressorex.

[kil0ran]

Bike fit for me is like cat

Bike fit for me is like cat herding. You get something right and that in turns puts something else out of whack. So off you go and chase that, and it then something else goes wrong.

On the plus side I’ve got a box of stems from 80-120mm, all pro-style gaffa taped so I don’t end up with brand/colour clash. Same applies to seatposts. Currently experimenting with flared bars (Ritchey Venturemax)

[Simon_MacMichael]

Thanks for kicking off this

Thanks for kicking off this thread Kiloran, some very interesting replies, will be flagging it to our tech team, lots of interesting angles that they can get their teeth into for articles.

 

[IanEdward]

Ha! I’ve moved to 100mm on
Ha! I’ve moved to 100mm on road bikes and 90mm on gravel, at least 10mm shorter than average for my height (6ft).

In fairness I’ve moved saddles back too which I find helps unweight hands and forearms, although recent back pain episodes have got me thinking about shuffling saddles forward 10mm again ?

[kil0ran]

It’s complicated but as I

It’s complicated but as I understand it the fit starts with the feet and moves up the body. So cleat position comes first, then crank length (based on hip flexion and knee tracking), then saddle height. That sets your bottom half up and then it’s just a question of finding a comfortable body angle. First fit I had done I was surprised that the solution to my back pain was to go longer on the stem, felt counter-intuitive but it completely solved it, to the point I did RideLondon the next weekend with zero issues.

[kil0ran]

Yeah, there’s a bit of thing

Yeah, there’s a bit of thing about shorter cranks in general. I think potentially like most things (oval chainrings) it’s quite rider-specific. As you said so much of bike fit wisdom is based on race rather than real-world fit. Guy who did my recent one is an ex-Pro Conti and national team rider and he was very adaptable – takes the view that speed comes with comfort, not slamming and stretching everything. First thing he did was shorten me up 20mm on saddle position. He also said that the current gravel vogue is leading to 10mm being shaved off the typical stem length which is great for control but will end up giving people back issues if they do long road rides. He’s also expecting shoulder and neck issues if people use flared bars for longer rides if they’ve been used to road bars.

[IanEdward]

Ah OK, sounds very ‘you’
Ah OK, sounds very ‘you’ specific!

I’d asked as I’ve seen some interesting stuff on YouTube (Road Cycling Academy) recommending shorter for virtually all riders. I’m always on the lookout for things to reduce back pain although changing cranks on 4 bikes would be an expensive business ??

[mark1a]

That’s interesting regarding

That’s interesting regarding the fitter’s recommendation with cranks – I’m a similar age to you (53), similar height (180cm) and old knee injury from a c1982 BMX incident (tabletop, succesful launch, unsuccessful landing), and the fitter (Gary from GA Cycles, not far from you and highly recommended) said 172.5mm were perfect. I’ve had zero fit issues since visiting them.

Other measurements as follows:

 

[kil0ran]

178cm so by rights I should

178cm so by rights I should be riding 172.5mm cranks. But 165s were recommended by a fitter 5 years ago, and by a different fitter this year. I’ve got reduced hip flexion from an old injury (an OTB moment involving loose wheel nuts and a Raleigh Grifter c. 1982). I find them better for hills, I’m more able to get over the top of the stroke with them. Fitter noticed that at my preferred saddle height I was getting a lot of knee splaying on standard length cranks. Should note that I run my saddle lower than average for my height too – I’ve got a pretty narrow fit window as an unfit 52yo and I’m particularly sensitive to saddle height. 9 hours a day at a desk doesn’t help with the back pain either.

[IanEdward]

To be fair I lifted that
To be fair I lifted that point about moving around less on winter rides from somebody on Singletrackworld ?

Curious about your 165mm cranks, what height are you, what prompted the change?

[kil0ran]

Good point about position for

Good point about position for winter riding, I too am less dynamic on the bike in winter months.

As far as the drivetrain goes the Domane is probably slightly better specced now. New chain and cassette and it’s an Ultegra R8000/105 5800 mashup compared to Tiagra 4600 on the old Defy. Same brakes, rotors and wheels/tyres. Oh and the cranks are the same because I run 165s so I swapped them over when I sold the Defy.

This thread has been an interesting read over the past few days, I think I’m ultimately going to put it down to a combination of factors – weather, health, a drop in fitness and frame differences.

I’ve had fast/comfortable ally bikes in the past – Triban 3 and a Merida CX bike spring to mind – but there’s just something about this Domane frame that makes it dull and lifeless. It’s a lovely bit of kit and probably the best engineered bike I’ve owned – utterly silent even with full mudguards installed – but it just doesn’t put a smile on my face. Of course Trek market it as an entry-level road bike and so perhaps I should expect it to be like that, otherwise they wouldn’t have the opportunity to upsell riders. I guess I’ve been a bit spoilt by riding “boutique” frames and very high quality carbon frames like the Defy.

What this all means is a return to a Defy in the spring I think. If I was just commuting on it I’d put up with it but cycling for me now is leisure, and leisure should be fun and enjoyable. If only Giant had better colour schemes.

[Author]

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