[Shades]

I was listening to 2 cycling podcasts recently, one involving Geraint Thomas and the other David Miller; whilst not the main podcast topic, both had a dig against the latest bike technology.  G had problems with his electronic shifting, presumably whist training at home, and had contacted his mechanic who told him to check the batteries in the shifters.  He was a bit WTF (all the charging up etc)!  David Miller remarked that bikes previously just had cables and air; now it was fluids and electronics and was just, well, complicated.  I was recently riding with a friend who had electronic shifting, tubeless etc; putting his bike away he removed all the batteries ready for charging.  I asked what happens if the tubeless business doesn’t work; he said he’d call his wife to rescue him.  My wife gave me the ‘good luck with that one’ look.  Someone else was raging that, on a gloriously sunny morning, her husband said that a bike ride wasn’t on as his DI2 batteries weren’t charged; he needed 24 hrs notice.

I’m pretty handy with bike maintenance; of the more recent innovations, hydraulics seems reliable and, apart from new pads, maintenance free, although maintaining cable brakes is dead easy.  Tubeless; I get it, but if you keep an eye on tyre wear and invest in decent tyres, then, hopefully, punctures are pretty infrequent.  Electronic shifting; is that necessary?  Just a trip to the LBS (booked up for weeks) when it goes wrong, wishing you had a simple cable system.  I often think to when you’re on holiday with your bike; if there’s a problem then sorting it yourself (if you’ve driven and have some tools/spares) means there’s no impact so why not keep the bike simple.  On a 2 week holiday in France I noticed my rear wheel had a slight buckle caused by a spoke nipple being pulled out through the rim.  A LBS couldn’t have been more disinterested if they’d tried when I enquired about a replacement wheelset (probably because I was a Brit); fortunately the rim held out although I was considering an emergency Decathlon purchase and sell the bike when I got home.  All this considered, I sense the bike industry has other ideas.

Topic

[Yorkshie Whippet]

Because YouTube and twitter

Because YouTube and twitter is full of “this went wrong and not have” rants. When was the last time you sat down and watch a five ride where nothing happened on YouTube?

[Awavey]

theyd love my bikes then, I

theyd love my bikes then, I havent touched the cabling on either of them for years 🙂

[Recoveryride]

I’m not sure ‘complicated’ is

I’m not sure ‘complicated’ is the right word – just different. I don’t think routine maintenance of discs, electronic shifting, or tubeless is innately harder or more frequent than rim brakes, mechanical, or tubes.

I’ve run electronic on and off for a few years and, on the whole I’m a big fan, and haven’t had any major problems, one flat battery aside (though that was 100% user error). Ditto tubeless, which I now wouldn’t go without. Yes, I’ve had 1 ride-ending sidewall cut, but that’s in 2 years, and truth be told, I think that would have finished off a tubed tyre as well, as it was too long to boot.

On road, I’m a bit agnostic on discs, but given you have to go out of your way to get rim brakes these days, that’s a moot point. Actually, having issues with hydraulics needing to be bled (often at inconvenient times) was what forced me to learn how to bleed them myself, and it’s not a very long or complicated task, even for a very average mechanic like me.

What I do think is that when riders do switch over to the ‘new’ stuff, it’s worth spending a bit of time researching how to maintain them and how to get yourself out of the common pickles.  I can well imagine if tubes were new, for example, plenty of riders complaining about the hassle and difficulty of changing them!

[wtjs]

There are a few bike
There are a few bike mechanics wincing at the idea of a cable shift without any maintenance for 6 months
I don’t know why! If the bike wasn’t used and was kept in the dry, it certainly would soon start working properly after a few shifts. If the bike was in use, it’s just ‘pull the inner out, get external outer up in the air by removing it from the cable guides, drop in oil, and replace’. That’s worked for mine with one replacement inner for both front and rear for over 3 years of all weather use.

[IanMSpencer]

There are a few bike

There are a few bike mechanics wincing at the idea of a cable shift without any maintenance for 6 months 😉

[wtjs]

my rear wheel had a slight
my rear wheel had a slight buckle caused by a spoke nipple being pulled out through the rim
Bloody modern rims!

[Miller]

E-shifting means keeping an
E-shifting means keeping an eye on battery charge levels. I am not saying that is difficult. Just that if you leave a cableshift bike alone for six months the shifting will probably still work whereas a battery may have gone flat. That is the entirety of my point.

[mike the bike]

kil0ran wrote:

kil0ran wrote:

 …… Similarly, as a heavy rider, I find that road tubeless doesn’t work for me. I still need to ride high pressures (80psi) and despite paying attention to sealant quality and quantity I’ve never had a puncture seal properly……  

I share many of your opinions sir, in particular the shortcomings of tubeless road tyres.  But, in contrast to your no-doubt magnificent physique, I am but a knock-kneed lightweight and yet Uncle Stan’s finest sealant let me down at every opportunity.  It would appear some of us are fated to stay with tubes.

[IanMSpencer]

I was querying this comment:
I was querying this comment: “I love e-shifting and tubeless but both require routine maintenance in a way that previous cycling tech did not.”

It was the comparative suggestion that e-shifting maintenance was somehow more complex than a cable set-up I am querying. I genuinely cannot see what there is that makes Di2 harder for you or an average less confident user. I mean there are people in our club who have been riding bikes for 50 years still take their cable gears to a bike shop if they need adjusting.

[Miller]

IanMSpencer wrote:

I am genuinely intrigued at what Miller perceives as being a major negative maintenance issue over cable gears. It may be a SRAM thing???

I just dropped in to see what condition my perception was in… and your perception of my perception is incorrect. As I said, I am fine with routine maintenance. 

[kil0ran]

I’m sure we had this debate

I’m sure we had this debate when Shimano invented indexed gearing and then dual control shifters but the difference for me is that those things were making things easier, not harder. I’ve run Di2 and tubeless, rim and disc, in both hydro and cable forms. I’ve had frames with external, partly internal, and fully internal routing. I’ve had clutched and unclutched mechs. I’ve done 1x and dealt with various flavours of BB.

For me, I like the simplicity of cable-operated everything, with external cabling. My winter hack did a couple of thousand miles of commuting in all weathers and I never had to change cables, brake blocks, etc. I even prefer TRP Spyres to road hydros and once set up correctly they offer enough power to haul up my considerable bulk on a descent. So the moar hydro, moar electronics, moar integration fashion doesn’t even make sense from a practical perspective to me. 

In comparison, when I ran Di2 I remember the rear mech lost contact with the brains of the system, which necessitated removing the crank to get at the B junction box buried in the BB area. That was a good couple of hours work.

Similarly, as a heavy rider, I find that road tubeless doesn’t work for me. I still need to ride high pressures (80psi) and despite paying attention to sealant quality and quantity I’ve never had a puncture seal properly. Maybe I’m just unlucky living in the flinty goodness of chalky Hampshire. 

What all these innovations really do is make work for the LBS and money for the bike manufacturers. We’re at the point where cars got to in the early 2000s where suddenly they weren’t maintainable with home tools and a Haynes manual. I remember my 2003 Golf needing the front bumper removing to replace a headlight bulb, that’s a bit like the major job replacing headset bearings on a bike with integrated routing has become. Ten mins plus an allen key vs a couple of hours and an internal routing kit.

As a home mechanic who also works on other peoples bikes I don’t mind the complexity because it generates business, but I can’t say I enjoy fettling a modern bike as much as I do one that’s cable everything.

[IanMSpencer]

Riding both cable (gravel)

Riding both cable (gravel) and Di2, the reality there is little difference in enjoyability – I simply adjust to the effort and unreliability of the gear change (Di2 will change the front change under pressure, GRX needs TLC and timing).

Disc for me has given enjoyment. Too many instances of inadequate stopping in bad weather on rim brakes and the expense. I think they go with the electronic ignition argument – problems are hard to deal with, but generally they don’t occur. I don’t recognise your experience of disc pad wear being worse thatn rim brakes and the reality is that if I don’t check them for a while, I know they are starting to wear because they get noisier – but at least it is a rotor I am damaging not a wheel.

The internal cable routing – not being a marginal gain sort of a person, that certainly hasn’t increased my pleasure, but a good quality carbon frame and decent wheels are more enjoyable, as have riding softer tubeless tyres – which I reckon are safer too as if I hit a pothole due to a late call from in front, I’m happy to ride through it rather than swerve around in a panic. 

I’d like to see threaded BBs come back. There is little end user benefit in press-fit. On the other hand, modern drop-in oversized headset bearings are a joy compared with 10 years or so ago. I also prefer sealed bearings in wheels – loose ball bearings might be user friendly in theory but usually when they fail they do damage to the surface and the hub is a write off. And I enjoy the challenge of remembering how on earth each hub comes apart (it’s been a long time since you undid a lock nut).

BUt you are right, tech seems to be targetting performance that few riders are asking for or looking for. Test features against enjoyablity of the riding experience, which will of course vary from person to person – I want endurance and choices stem from that. 

[Reggie Perrin]

I’ve been thinkin this myself

I’ve been thinking this myself over the last few years as tech moves on and I start to wonder if I can afford a new bike. One of the things I love about bikes is (was) the simplicity. When I was young I had a BMX, like a lot of us no doubt, and even in my early teens, I could strip the whole thing down myself (and put it back together, I hasten to add!) When I stepped up to a road bike, the tech wasn’t that much different, just the addition of gears, easy to access and exciting to learn. But I could do it myself and the appeal was riding this simple machine, maintained solely by me that brought me so much pleasure. I’d love to get home and tinker away; in fact, I’d tinker even when it wasn’t needed, I just enjoyed it so much. I don’t look forward to it quite so much any more.

I’ve absolutley nothing against new tech such as electronic gears or disc brakes – my CX bike has hydraulic disc brakes – but my road bikes are rim brakes. Yes, most agree discs are better and arguably they are, but prior to discs, I never heard anyone complain about rim brakes so much that they demanded discs – apart from carbon clincher rim brakes which are awful. Like it or not, that’s the way the industry wants us to go and we’ve mostly got to bite the bullet – would just like the choice.

My next road bike will no doubt be disc brake as I’ll have little choice assuming I want something higher end. Whether it will be electronic gears as well depends firstly on my bank balance and then what the frame choice allows. Factor bikes claim that public demand means all their bikes are electronic gears only. I’d love to see the thousands of emails that demanded it. I don’t believe for a minute that angry customers demanded it. I’d guess it’s more down to internal cable gears compromising their frame design.

My S-Works Tarmac (admittedly a bit old now, but still a brilliant bike) allowed me to buy the framset and move items across from an older bike and upgrade as and when funds allow. Can’t do that anymore. Effectively I have to start again.

As for maintaining bikes myself these days, up to a point, yes, but any future disc brake bike will have to go to the LBS certainly for hydraulic brake maintenance. Maybe I could learn it and shell out for more tools, but I know that it will seem like a hassle rather than a pleasure. Replacing cables and changing brake blocks is child’s play in comparison as you can see clearly when blocks are wearing out or cables are looking iffy. I actually enjoy maintaining brakes. Maybe it’s psycholgical thinbg as if I know I’ve done it correctly, I know I’m safe.

So for now, I’ll try and stockpile what I can for my current crop of bikes whilst I try and save for what will be the standard in the not too distant future. By the time I get there, some other piece of tech will have take over.

[mtbtomo]

Not to criticise anyone’s
Not to criticise anyone’s ability to maintain their own bikes, but pro’s often won’t need to maintain their own bikes and a lot of people won’t know how to maintain their own bikes. Some people don’t have the desire to learn either and that’s fine too.

Swapping tubed and mechanical for tubeless and and electronic just creates different maintenance requirements. Might be a slightly bigger issue when things go wrong but barring firmware issues on electronic groupsets nothing on tubeless, electronic or hydraulic disc technology is particularly hard to maintain and that maintenance seems less frequent than mechanical cabled systems and tubed tyres.

Like one of the other posters, I’ve had one puncture that wouldn’t seal in 8 years of running road tubeless across numerous bikes and wheels. And it was perfectly easy to swap a tube in when it was clear I’d let the sealant dry out over time forgetting to top it up. It wasn’t a call to ask for a car journey.

[Griff500]

The anti-electronic argument

The anti-electronic argument reminds me of a similar debate back in the 80s when those unreliable carburettors and contact breaker ignitions systems which you coud fix yourself were replaced by sealed electronic ignition and fuel injection, to the cries of “oh, but what happens when it goes wrong”.  We soon found that there were no more flooded carburettors, no more wet weather starting problems, or contact points to replace and tweak, whilst the electronics for the most part last the life of the car.  As for missing a ride because your batteries are flat??  Is that really a thing? My only experience of electronic shifting is SRAM, which gives me various warnings (message on my computer plus red led’s) long before the battery condition is so low as to cause problems. I have however been stranded by a cable break on a mechanical system.

With disc brakes however, I find these a complete PITA, and high maintenance.  My old Ultegra rim brakes just worked, simple as that. I moved to disc this year, and along with most of my ride buddies using discs, SRAM or Shimano, I face the ongoing challenge of trying to keep the discs quiet, while the pads last 25% of the time of my rim pads and cost more to replace. I would happily return to rim brakes.

I guess the big question as a leisure rider who rides a high tech bike, is do all the expensive innovations make me enjoy my riding more?  In all honesty, probably not.  

  

[Author]

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