[JLasTSR]

Do some motorists dislike cyclists because they think our use of the roads is without a legitimate purpose? 

While we see going for a bike ride to enjoy an hour or so riding out as normal behaviour, do they see that as not a legitimate reason for using the road? If someone is dressed in lycra is this antipathy further exacerbated as they are clearly dressed for a sporting endeavour not for going to the shop, place of work, pub, friend’s house? 

If cyclists were perceived as being on essential or unavoidable journeys would it change the perception?

I am not sure it would entirely but I do think there is a feeling among some motorists that cyclists lack legitimacy hence the repeated calls for Tax and Registration and Insurance. Then Cyclists would have to obey the rules of the road wouldn’t they? I mean no car driver has ever sped, jumped a light, have they? People that behave less than well exist in every class of road user. 

I do think the advent of 20mph limits for cars will see cyclists eventually having to observe the 20mph limit as well. When 20mph roads were uncommon it did not matter but as they become more common I think it is inevitable. How they bring it in I don’t know, speedometers on a bike fitted from new would have to happen but what about people like me riding bicycles built in the 1970’s I do have a phone but I don’t always have it with me or turned onto a bike computer app especially if I am miles from home it is then probably on google maps so I don’t get lost.

 

 

Topic

[chrisonabike]

To remix Mark Twain – get a
To remix Mark Twain – get a shopping bike *. You will not regret it, if you Lidl.

* or convert an existing one – but my experience has been that there is a reason why Dutch bikes are designed how they are. That includes not *just* “practical and very low maintenance” but something about the upright position being really cheerful for shorter trips (yes, if you’re doing a tour stage to get there or are just unhappy below 18mph something else is more suitable).

‘ve done shopping on every bike I’ve owned but my most upright one is now my go-to and I actually enjoy the mundane chores!

[chrisonabike]

Two Good Books in one post!
Two Good Books in one post!

I go for the simple explanations here. I think humans are big chimps (the mimic chimp if you will) with some (very impressive) icing / sprinkles on top – much of which is reuse of existing cognative / emotional abilities.

We definitely have to deal with “we don’t like cheaters” and “in-group” (we’re better / I aspire to be like x) vs. “disdain for out-group”. I think that explains most of it in the UK. Cyclists are in the way, they’re not us, they’re a weird minority so I’ll find reasons to say they’re not good (lowering their social status to boost that of me / my group).

Media and politics are just big advertising boards for that – after all most people don’t cycle so expect for “media interest” I bet most people only think about cyclists very rarely if at all.

[hawkinspeter]

GMBasix wrote:

But that blatent utilitarian function is helpfully outweighted by the FACT that every single Deliveruber rider is trained to ride fat bikes with 7kW motors at spine-chilling speeds along the footway and through every traffic light (but only on red).

We are also obliged to overlook the economic pressures that encourage both work-related cycling and delivery van drivers* to take shortcuts with the rules in order to bring home the bacon.

(* their defence is, of course, that they are doing a hard day’s work, and where would your Amazon tat come from if every 3rd vehicle on the road wasn’t a delivery van #waronmotorists)

Therefore, riding for work is a Bad Thing.

I’d interpret all the bad behaviour by Deliveruber riders as being an indictment of our roads and how designing them primarily for cars isn’t working as well as we’ve been promised. If you want to get around the place quickly (and cheaply), then a car isn’t going to be of much use.

[GMBasix]

JLasTSR wrote:

Good point about deliveroo and courier riders, that rather shoots my idea down. Ho him back to the drawing board. 

But that blatent utilitarian function is helpfully outweighted by the FACT that every single Deliveruber rider is trained to ride fat bikes with 7kW motors at spine-chilling speeds along the footway and through every traffic light (but only on red).

We are also obliged to overlook the economic pressures that encourage both work-related cycling and delivery van drivers* to take shortcuts with the rules in order to bring home the bacon.

(* their defence is, of course, that they are doing a hard day’s work, and where would your Amazon tat come from if every 3rd vehicle on the road wasn’t a delivery van #waronmotorists)

Therefore, riding for work is a Bad Thing.

[hawkinspeter]

JLasTSR wrote:

Where I am it is very rarely congested traffic, if ever. Equally I never do any filtering. I still get passed at 60mph and less than a metre very occasionally, not too often though thankfully. By and large I cause little hold up and I don’t break rules of the road.

I hear people say though how much they dislike cyclists and when I ask why I get told about: how it isn’t safe to cycle,  how we hold people up, how we jump red lights, how we are there for no good reason, how entitled we are. Most of these know I cycle a fair bit, they all know I drive cars. They too are seldom in traffic except if they go to a biggish town when you expect it to happen. 

I do see in Cambridge some people driving and cycling that is just frankly dangerous. I will relate one anecdote from when I worked in Cambridge which perhaps illustrates the entitled bit. 

Three cyclists were travelling abreast up a motoring cul de sac which had another road the otherwise of some bollards that you could cycle through to access that road. 

There was a dustcart parked in the middle of the road while the chaps fetched bins and fed the back of it. 

The three cyclists were talking with each other. The two on the outsides split to go round the truck. Their friend in the middle never looked forward he did not deviate nor slow down but sailed straight into the back of the truck. Everyone looked aghast. 

He jumps up looks at his bike hurls it at the ground in fury and then proceeds to berate the driver and the entire dustcart crew for being in the way, blaming them wholly and squarely. The chaps on the receiving end looked at one another and tried to stop laughing. Is that an entitled cyclist, I think perhaps it is. 

Well, if someone doesn’t spot a whole dustcart and crew in the road, then maybe even a bike is too much speed for them, though I suppose he probably learnt an important lesson that day.

[JLasTSR]

Where I am it is very rarely

Where I am it is very rarely congested traffic, if ever. Equally I never do any filtering. I still get passed at 60mph and less than a metre very occasionally, not too often though thankfully. By and large I cause little hold up and I don’t break rules of the road.

I hear people say though how much they dislike cyclists and when I ask why I get told about: how it isn’t safe to cycle,  how we hold people up, how we jump red lights, how we are there for no good reason, how entitled we are. Most of these know I cycle a fair bit, they all know I drive cars. They too are seldom in traffic except if they go to a biggish town when you expect it to happen. 

I do see in Cambridge some people driving and cycling that is just frankly dangerous. I will relate one anecdote from when I worked in Cambridge which perhaps illustrates the entitled bit. 

Three cyclists were travelling abreast up a motoring cul de sac which had another road the otherwise of some bollards that you could cycle through to access that road. 

There was a dustcart parked in the middle of the road while the chaps fetched bins and fed the back of it. 

The three cyclists were talking with each other. The two on the outsides split to go round the truck. Their friend in the middle never looked forward he did not deviate nor slow down but sailed straight into the back of the truck. Everyone looked aghast. 

He jumps up looks at his bike hurls it at the ground in fury and then proceeds to berate the driver and the entire dustcart crew for being in the way, blaming them wholly and squarely. The chaps on the receiving end looked at one another and tried to stop laughing. Is that an entitled cyclist, I think perhaps it is. 

 

[JLasTSR]

A very Peter Gabriel Not One

A very Peter Gabriel Not One of Us position. Groups feeling stronger by excluding others. 

[mattw]

That tends to be a trope

That tends to be a trope alongside “hobby” and “recreation”.

IMO it’s just an attempt to avoid addressing the issue of travel equality, and the need to look in the mirror and ask some self-questions.

Marvin in H2G2:
“If human beings don’t keep exercising their lips, he thought, their mouths probably seize up. After a few months’ consideration and observation he abandoned this theory in favour of a new one. If they don’t keep on exercising their lips, he thought, their brains start working.”

or, if you prefer, Matthew 13:15 !

[wycombewheeler]

giff77 wrote:

…I’ve had enough and I’m not going to put friends and family through the trauma of my not coming home because of some distracted or vindictive motorist. 

Unfortunatelely I’ve come to the conclusion that between house equity, my pension fund and death in service insurance, my children (now young adults with almots no hope of buying a home) would be better off financially if some distracted motorist did stop me coming home permanantly. So I only now worry about the chance of coming home with permanant disability from a distracted driver.

[giff77]

I did have a work colleague

I did have a work colleague comment on would it not be better to come to work in a car rather than a toy. He shut up when I told him my bike was worth more than his car. 

[brooksby]

Every now and again I catch a

Every now and again I catch a glimpse of myself in a mirror or in a window as I ride past, and I think, “Oh – sh!t – yeah, I’m old, aren’t I?”

(I’m 53)

What is it they say – it’s weird to think that I’m the same age as old people.

[JLasTSR]

I am pretty sure the

I am pretty sure the Telegraph has a wider range of readers with interests that encompass a huge range of activities. However you are right it is often that like most papers when you take a position of; outraged at what is going on; you are more likely to appeal to your audience. “Nothing to see here” is a terrible headline. 

While I do a little shopping on the bike it is not really great for shopping as I have nowhere to put anything, but then I have never tried to make it a load carrying machine. Quite a good idea that, I might equip one with shopping carrying accoutrements.

[JLasTSR]

Totally agree with this. 

Totally agree with this. 

[mattw]

Agree with much of the post.

Agree with much of the post.

My point is that it is important to distinguish between eg:

– trolls (Who inhabit parts of eg twitter, facebook and nextdoor),
– unthinking followers of the trolls,
– the readers of the trolls who may be convinced,
– those with platforms who are looking for personal or political advantage (eg Telegraph journos, Mr Poophole, IDS),
– those with real concerns which must be addressed not dismissed (eg visually impaired people who have been hit by people riding cycles, hacked e-cycles etc on footways),
– those who may have a point but need to be educated,
– those making ill-informed assumptions from lack of knowledge (eg who support broad-brush PSPOs that ban ‘cycling’ rather than implement appropriate enforcement on ASB),
– those who cannot see how they can credibly do less driving in 2024 given the state of the roads.
– those who have embraced pieces of conspiracy theories, or swallowed them wholesale.

And sometimes there are mixes of these. All that can give an ida of how particular people or groups can be influenced.

For example I’d see IDS and his allies as both ill-informed and ignirant, and proposing a measure that looks attractive to some who he wants to vote for him, but which is ill-conceived and will not work. Can any of his followers be influenced by proposing something better, rather than saying “nah nah nah” and dancing on his political grave? How much of this is is fear or silo thinking rather than dedicated ideological opposition? The former are easier to address imo.

In Change Management, different groups with different attitudes are addressed by different tactics eg encourage, engage and educate, emoliate, exclude, eviscerate – depending on the attitude, and the desired outcome.

I tend to block drive-by trolls on twitter, as irredeemable, but they may have readers who can be educated or convinced, or indeed may educate me.

There are imo useful ideas around these in how we handle public debate. 

The Telegraph need to be treated harshly because they are shit-shovellers who know exactly what they are doing, but their ‘supprters’ may have narrower real concerns which can potentially be stood down from “bloody cyclist – bash the lot”, to something more focused. IDS can imo be treated as a soon-to-be-sunk-cost, who will leave a potentially-to-be-filled gap in the debate.

I think one area where good work has been done on social media is around demonstrating that a large majority of cyclists have insurance, for example.

There is a good presentation over at Active Travel Cafe by the leader of the Green Group in Darlington Council about the problems caused by timidity and conservatism amongst Officers and Councillors, and some tactics they have used. One is ‘cycle safari’ – putting a colleague on a cycle and getting them to do ordinary things eg “go and buy a loaf of bread from Tesco”, aiming  to let them see in a mirror that their own policies are not serving elements of the community.

Worth a listen.
https://youtu.be/nw_gBxUx_ss?t=598

[arckuk]

I think a lot of this would

I think a lot of this would be fairly inconsequential – I don’t really care hugely whether as a cyclist I am perceived poorly – but for the fact that the potential outcomes of interaction between cyclists and motorists are important. Risk of injury and worse increase pretty quickly as the amount of care that others take around us reduces slightly, so even a slight feeling of antipathy from those whom we are sharing roads can have really important consquences. Those stirring up and encouraging these feelings need to reflect on this an awful lot harder than they appear to be doing now.

[Author]

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