Do we challenge red light jumpers/green man means cyclist

I used to get fired up with
I used to get fired up with moral indignation when cyclists/bike riders went through red lights. Now I really don’t care as I watch someone disappear into the distance as I wait for the lights to change, it don’t affect me that they get to work three mins before me. What does affect me is, putting on a bit of speed to get through a set of green lights on a sharpish corner, with traffic waiting at a set of oncoming lights around the corner, only to be greeted by a cyclist, head on who has jumped a red light. I don’t want to dissemble and untangle myself from him and his bike. The funny thing is these riders aint always kids by any means at all.

Matt eaton wrote:In other

Matt eaton wrote:

In other words, if I jump a red light on a deserted junction on a Sunday morning my wife will know that I either a. went though on red or b. waited for green by my arival back at home as she intuitivley knows that one of the lights must have been on when I passed through the junction.

I’m going to go and feed that cat……..

I think it’s more that if you ride through traffic lights when no one is around and you have your eyes closed, you may or may not have jumped a red light, but the universe knows which one, and so presumably does your wife as they tend to know everything else that’s going on in the universe.

Matt. You should know that
Matt. You should know that the Mrs is all seeing and all knowing and nothing. Absolutely nothing gets past her radar. Even that bike you surreptitiously added to n+1. She knows. But let’s you live in that sense of false security waiting to unleash the dreaded question of it’s very existence.

sim1515 wrote:Your first

sim1515 wrote:

Your first sentence did make me chuckle though as it reminded me of that old question, if a tree falls and there’s no one to hear it…

Does it make a sound? Answer: Yes; the universe is observing it. It is easy to anthropomorphize the process but in reality humans don’t observe an event, you passively receive the event by receiving particle of light or pressure waves. So whether it is a tree, bear, or a dead cat in a box you are not interacting with it. Meanwhile on a atomic level the event/object is being bombarded by particles, particularly light and heat from nearby sources (like the Sun) or air particles. It is these particles that ‘observe’ the event by effecting its quantum state. This is why Schrodinger’s Cat is a though experiment only, in reality the universe has already observed the cat before you open the box which is why you intuitively know the cat can’t be both alive and dead at the same time.

Perception

drfabulous0 wrote:

If you run a red and there is nobody there to see it, does it matter? I’m not one for running red lights myself, except maybe the odd one in the wee hours of the morning when no-one is around, but it’s just a bloody bike for God’s sake, being safe and courteous is more important than obeying the letter of the law.

A lot of non-cyclists see red light jumping as the opposite of safe and courteous (regardless of the reality) and if they happen to see it will get annoyed by it. I guess the grey area of no one being around/some people around but not looking/some people around but not affected/etc is taken out by not jumping lights full stop, and if a car was in the same situation, would you expect them to stop?

Your first sentence did make me chuckle though as it reminded me of that old question, if a tree falls and there’s no one to hear it…

Lights

daddyELVIS wrote:

No, not saying that at all. This is the only set of lights I regularly jump (fully) as they tend to be on my Sunday morning route, and they tend to be completely clear – why would I wait, get cold, and then potentially set off again with a car behind me?

There is another set of lights that I regularly ride through, but not fully – just to get well ahead of the cars waiting behind, to give myself room to set off, clip-in and turn right as safe as possible. If anybody knows Bristol, it is the junction at the end of the suspension bridge road, opposite the Ashton Court entrance. You have to turn right into a pinch-point.

I have ridden through others, but not many, and I can’t even remember the last set I rode through except the 2 regulars. So I wouldn’t say I’m a serial offender with no respect for a red light. I would say I ride with my own safety in mind, and I put that above any law.

I’m still not sure how your first set of lights is different from any other set of lights apart from the fact you pass them on a Sunday morning so will get cold waiting for the lights to change. “Why would I wait” – because the light is red, simple. It shouldn’t matter if you’ll get cold, or if there are no people around, or if you could potentially have a car behind you, as I mentioned, having a car behind you isn’t inherently dangerous and is a possibility on any road whether you’ve stopped at lights or not, you waiting at those lights doesn’t seem any different to you waiting at any other set of lights, you may try and justify it all you like but you haven’t mentioned anything compelling to make waiting at those lights more dangerous then other lights you don’t jump.

I don’t know Bristol so can’t judge the second set you mention with a pinch point from actually riding it but a quick streetview shows there is an ASL there with a cycle lane leading up to it so you should be in front of the traffic there anyway, and if you take the lane you should be arriving at the pinch point ahead of them. I admit though you may get the odd driver trying to overtake in that central section before the island, it doesn’t seem that well thought out for cyclists wanting to turn right. As I’ve never ridden it, it’s hard to know exactly what goes on but it does seem like a prime candidate for the separate cyclist headstart lights as they would ensure you get past the pinch point ahead of the cars. The only other thing I’d point out is that if you feel that strongly about your life being in danger that you’re willing to break the law due to that junction, you could take the road on the right before the junction (Church St), turn left at the T junction and pop out a bit further down thus avoiding the area altogether, I miss known blackspots in London out as I’d rather change my route than put myself in that kind of situation if possible.

In my opinion, breaking the law regularly still makes you a serial offender, and you use the words “regularly” and “regulars”. If you don’t jump other red lights, it shows you do have some respect for red lights, but it seems just not for the two you mention, one for no given reason and one due to the pinch point.

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sim1515 wrote:

How is this different to any other light? Take away all of the specifics and you have that you stop at a light and when you pull away there may be a car behind you that may overtake you dangerously. Or are you saying that you don’t stop at any lights as cars may be behind you if you do?

No, not saying that at all. This is the only set of lights I regularly jump (fully) as they tend to be on my Sunday morning route, and they tend to be completely clear – why would I wait, get cold, and then potentially set off again with a car behind me?

There is another set of lights that I regularly ride through, but not fully – just to get well ahead of the cars waiting behind, to give myself room to set off, clip-in and turn right as safe as possible. If anybody knows Bristol, it is the junction at the end of the suspension bridge road, opposite the Ashton Court entrance. You have to turn right into a pinch-point.

I have ridden through others, but not many, and I can’t even remember the last set I rode through except the 2 regulars. So I wouldn’t say I’m a serial offender with no respect for a red light. I would say I ride with my own safety in mind, and I put that above any law.

vbvb wrote:sim1515 wrote:I

vbvb wrote:

sim1515 wrote:

I would be guessing but I think there are more people involved than just them. So, in your eyes, if we just start breaking laws they’ll change them for us? That seems a bit naive and very wishful.

Ha, yes, maybe, lots of people involved. Civil disobedience works sometimes though. Poll tax, for example. I may be naive in this, I grant you, it’s not impossible.

I don’t think that’s relevant to this situation (red light jumping), but it is a perfectly valid point in general – the poll tax failed because so many people refused to pay it and because that refusal caused huge problems.

In some cases mass law-breaking works and the law gets changed, but in others it doesn’t, it depends on the specific situation, you can’t make a blanket statement about it.

But I don’t think it will work for red lights becuase cyclists are too small a group and also their defying that law doesn’t actually cause huge problems for society. Society will either tolerate it or randomly fine people doing it.