Guardian spread on electric cars (5 October)

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

pastyfacepaddy wrote:

I’m quite surprised by the degree of whatabouttery and misinformation being floated around on here with regards EV’s. For a moment I almost mistook this for the Daily Fail website!

There is no magic bullet to solve the climate change issues or congestion issues. Yes we need an increased emphasis on and enabling of public transport, we need to remove the sense of entitlement towards the right to owning a car etc but EV’s are a valid step towards minimising the environmental impact of transport as a step along the way. Battery technology is constantly developing as are charging technologies and battery recycling with the two former leading to massive increases of range, efficiency and reductions in charge times. Also increasing is the green generation sector meaing many EV’s will be powered by renewable sources.

The fact that many of these new EV’s have additional safety features such as pedestrian detection and increasingly autonomous functionality is all leading (hopefully) to increasingly safer roads for all of us whether we can afford the new EV’s or not.

I’m currently looking at an EV as a replacement for a deisel and having a green tariff already in place means there would be no running CO2 costs for it.

 

I hate the term ‘whattabouettery’, incidentally.  Like Godwin’s Law or accusations of ‘politicial correctness’ or ‘virtue signalling’ or invocations of ‘common sense’, it might have a rare valid use, but 90% of the time it gets used a a lazy short cut to avoid addressing actual arguments.   Wish people would stop using those terms/phrases.

 

And talk of ‘magic bullets’ is a straw man.  The question is to what degree electric vehicles are going to help or distract from the better solutions.  I honestly don’t know, but in urban areas I’d put far more emphasisis on restricting the use of cars of any kind.  Increasing fuel tax and congestion charging, and installing more bollards.  I’m not opposed to EVs, but I’m just not wildly evangelical about them either.

 

 

  The proposal that they be allowed to use bus lanes, for example, was disengenous, and clearly about the profits of the manufacturers rather than doing anything for the environment.  Taking resources from the least polluting travel modes and giving it to more polluting ones (and at the same time freeing up more space in the rest of the road for the most polluting ones) would not be a ‘green’ policy.

 

Also I’m skeptical about ‘green tafiffs’.  There’s no specifically ‘green’ electricity, it’s all interchangeable.

Wish people would stop using those terms/phrases. Like strawman? 🙂

As you can see I didn’t use it to avoid any of the points but I think it fits perfectly when something is used as a distraction away from the question being asked such as uninsured drivers and whether increases of EV’s would impact that completely unrelated issue. I also don’t mind using  the other terms you’ve listed as I think they absolutely have a place  in calling out fakery and distracting from the initial question being asked.  (yes I acknowledge the irony there given the reason for your dislike of them) 🙂

Ideally i think the move away from private ownership is key especially in urban areas as you mention and for the remaining I’d prefer to see Hydrogen fuel cells as the preferred fuel for transport but that seems to be a long way away and I honestly think EV’s are a useful and necessary step towards honing the technology required and adjustment of people’s attitudes and habits.

EV’s should not be allowed anywhere near a bus lane unless the bus is an EV. 100% agree on that one.

I’m not sure why the skepticsm about green tariffs though? I use X amounts of units and my supplier (Bulb who supply 100% green energy) either generates or acquires that same amount of units from other generators produced using renewables.  The more demand for green energy the more energy is produced using green means. The level of micro generation is increasing and some people now are producing over 90% of their own energy using storage. They produce and charge battery storage during the day while they’re out and then use that to power their homes during the evening including topping up their EV’s at night.
 

pastyfacepaddy wrote:

I’m quite surprised by the degree of whatabouttery and misinformation being floated around on here with regards EV’s. For a moment I almost mistook this for the Daily Fail website!

There is no magic bullet to solve the climate change issues or congestion issues. Yes we need an increased emphasis on and enabling of public transport, we need to remove the sense of entitlement towards the right to owning a car etc but EV’s are a valid step towards minimising the environmental impact of transport as a step along the way. Battery technology is constantly developing as are charging technologies and battery recycling with the two former leading to massive increases of range, efficiency and reductions in charge times. Also increasing is the green generation sector meaing many EV’s will be powered by renewable sources.

The fact that many of these new EV’s have additional safety features such as pedestrian detection and increasingly autonomous functionality is all leading (hopefully) to increasingly safer roads for all of us whether we can afford the new EV’s or not.

I’m currently looking at an EV as a replacement for a deisel and having a green tariff already in place means there would be no running CO2 costs for it.

I hate the term ‘whattabouettery’, incidentally.  Like Godwin’s Law or accusations of ‘politicial correctness’ or ‘virtue signalling’ or invocations of ‘common sense’, it might have a rare valid use, but 90% of the time it gets used a a lazy short cut to avoid addressing actual arguments.   Wish people would stop using those terms/phrases.

And talk of ‘magic bullets’ is a straw man.  The question is to what degree electric vehicles are going to help or distract from the better solutions.  I honestly don’t know, but in urban areas I’d put far more emphasisis on restricting the use of cars of any kind.  Increasing fuel tax and congestion charging, and installing more bollards.  I’m not opposed to EVs, but I’m just not wildly evangelical about them either.

  The proposal that they be allowed to use bus lanes, for example, was disengenous, and clearly about the profits of the manufacturers rather than doing anything for the environment.  Taking resources from the least polluting travel modes and giving it to more polluting ones (and at the same time freeing up more space in the rest of the road for the most polluting ones) would not be a ‘green’ policy.

Also I’m skeptical about ‘green tafiffs’.  There’s no specifically ‘green’ electricity, it’s all interchangeable.

I’m quite surprised by the

I’m quite surprised by the degree of whatabouttery and misinformation being floated around on here with regards EV’s. For a moment I almost mistook this for the Daily Fail website!

There is no magic bullet to solve the climate change issues or congestion issues. Yes we need an increased emphasis on and enabling of public transport, we need to remove the sense of entitlement towards the right to owning a car etc but EV’s are a valid step towards minimising the environmental impact of transport as a step along the way. Battery technology is constantly developing as are charging technologies and battery recycling with the two former leading to massive increases of range, efficiency and reductions in charge times. Also increasing is the green generation sector meaning many EV’s will be powered by renewable sources.

The fact that many of these new EV’s have additional safety features such as pedestrian detection and increasingly autonomous functionality is all leading (hopefully) to increasingly safer roads for all of us whether we can afford the new EV’s or not.

I’m currently looking at an EV as a replacement for a deisel and having a green tariff already in place means there would be no running CO2 costs for it.

Simon E wrote:

Further thoughts:

1. Will electric cars mean that there are no longer 1,00,000 uninsured drivers on British roads? Uninsured drivers kill 130 people a year and injure another 27,000.

2. Does driving an electric car mean people change their habits and decide to obey speed limits? Do they tailgate less often? Do they drive more cautiously on narrow country lanes? Does it have a calming effect on driver aggression, including towards women?

1. I wouldn’t expect it to be any worse than ICE cars and possible as most people will be leasing EV’s I would expect less chance of them being uninsured.

2. Not specifically but yes in so much as most EV’s are newer cars and as such they come with much more safety built in such as crash assist systems, adaptive cruise control, lane keeper, Blind spot warnings etc. 

Also due to the less moving parts and servicing requirements it’s likely that EV’s have less to go wrong with them so represent safer vehicles on the roads.

Sriracha wrote:

Sriracha wrote:

I think you’ll find the human misery remains long after oil is replaced. That’s because it’s not the oil that causes the misery.

We’ll have to wait and see.

The damage to societies may be permanent.

Hopefully it won’t be.

Griff500 wrote:

Griff500 wrote:

Depends who’s data you believe. No need to go into the detail here as there are some very detailed analyses online supporting both sides of the debate, all of course generated by bodies with vested interests in one side or the other. One of the biggest points argued over is assumptions made on battery recycling, which currently is not taking place. A bit like all that supermarket packaging carrying a recycling label (black plastic, plastic film etc), correct in theory, yet your local council says otherwise.

As for your comparison of cobalt mining with oil production? I don’t think you’ve read about the kids in DRC.

I have read about the mining.

I’ve also read about the ongoing atrocities in the Middle East.

Oil production is associated with huge amounts of human misery.

The sooner we wean ourselves off it the better.

CyclingInBeastMode wrote:

CyclingInBeastMode wrote:

Does that 60g/km include the CO2 from mining Cobolt – most of the worlds cobolt comes from DRC* where children digging by hand isn’t uncommon in artisanal mines, how about that from Lithium mining , does it take into account the CO2 generated from dirty energy production  – we in the UK use over 46% carbon based fuel over the whole year (averaged out so higher winter/lower summer) to generate our electricty? Does it also take into account the Lithium that is not recycled because it’s cheaper to mine/use virgin?

*Minerals from DRC are now considered to be ‘conflict’ minerals by some organisations whilst other motor manufacturers talk about ethics but won’t actually say where they get their resources from cough Mercedes/VW/VOLVO etc, at least Jaguar LR admitted that they did as did BMW.

Apparently, yes, it does take all that CO2 in to account.

It doesn’t state what country the car would be based in to generate those figures so can’t comment on whether they would be true in UK.

An EV in the UK will, however, see its CO2 emissions decrease year on year as more and more renewable electricity comes on line.

Oil production has enough ethical implications of its own so I’m not sure the impact of cobalt/lithium mining is any different in that regard.

Of course it would be better if everyone walked and cycled as much as possible but that sort of cultural change will take decades, switching to EVs is a very useful interim measure that should reduce a lot of the harm associated with car use.

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

I had no idea we had such things as ‘school buses’ in this country, I thought they were purely an American thing.  Clearly I live in an urban bubble.  Odd, though that popular culture has long featured the US version, but I’ve never encountered reference to the UK version.

Not a specific design of vehicle like they have other there, but buses/coaches on specifically school runs. Usually run by smaller private operators from what I see. That’s in addition to minibuses owned and run by schools themselves, for driving sports teams to matches, geography field trips, etc.