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Boatsie.
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October 6, 2019 at 10:20 am #30179
David9694
Lots here I was only hazy on, e.g. growing trade in second hand Leafs and Zoes and how far the improving batteries will get you (nb deduct 10% if you use the fan). No real answer yet to how to recharge at home if no driveway and how to re-charge away with the same assured ease of access and speed as lovely petrol. £/mile, it looks increasingly attractive for shorter journies – the one you’d make to/from the train station, for example
interesting chicken and egg puzzle here : which came first, the Audi/BMW/Subaru driver or the Audi/BMW/Subaru car? what will be the effect on these people of going electric?
Anyway, the article was all flowing along nicely until the end paragraph:
“the fact that there are zero exhaust emissions means that you can jump in the car to drive across town with a much clearer conscience.” Entirely clear conscience, anyone?
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iandusud
Simon E wrote:
They are not, and they don’t address many of the problems of car use – congestion and parking, danger to vulnerable road users, while tailpipe emissions are only part of the transport pollution problem. For example:Rick_Rude wrote:Yep, electric cars are not that green at all when you look at the overall picture.https://policy.friendsoftheearth.uk/insight/more-electric-cars
Driven to disaster: The major flaw in Labour’s Green New Deal plans
https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1137985246845120512 and https://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/on-demand/69180-001
https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-10-02/california-microplastics-ocean-study
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/07/cars-killing-us-driving-environment-phase-out
And that’s before we get onto the obesity crisis in this country while a huge proportion of car journeys are under 3 miles.
None of these publications promote e-bikes or electric mopeds, both of which are far smaller and cheaper than an e-SUV and would be a brilliant option for many households instead of a second car.
Yes I’d like to have an electric car instead of my dirty petrol one but I’ve never paid more than £2k for a car; with my modest salary, a mortgage and a family to support that’s unlikely to change. I would also like to have solar panels on the roof of my house so I could charge my car etc with sunlight but no-one’s giving those away cheaply either.
Perhaps the article is advertorial.
From the Friend of the Earth link.
“Cancel all new road schemes and use the funding for public transport, walking and cycling.”
This!
Boatsie
Rick_Rude wrote:
Rick_Rude wrote:Yep, electric cars are not that green at all when you look at the overall picture.
In my opinion the worst polluters on the roads in the UK are school buses. How those pieces of black smoke belching pieces of crap get through MOTs is beyond me.
The black smoke ain’t that bad.. It’s diesel and a lot less harmful than petrol, just looks thick initially.
Lithium ion battery discarding down here has been done disgustingly. I’m pretty sure I read that the government managed to foolishly pay a less monetary customed country into accepting our toxic waste and hence dump it as landfill. By now it would have leached into the mighty Pacific ocean. Pacific =peaceful. Not sure how much peace fullness is with Pacific nowadays, tonnes upon tonnes of ‘green’ toxic landfills leaching into a system that contains an island the size of France made of fantastic plastic.
Our children have a debt that is nowhere near the size of their future grandchildrens debt if consumption to meet demands of wants continues to strengthen as it appears to be such.
The carbon projectile was gifted a heave on many years before our man recognized the ease to use tools yet if we lose that we are all dead. It’s that simple.
Glad to ride bikes.Anonymous
Rich_cb wrote:
Rich_cb wrote:Read a recent review of the new Renault Zoe, they were quoting lifecycle CO2 per Km of 60g. That’s pretty impressive and an indication of where EVs are headed in terms of CO2 emmisions. (Obviously depends on which country you’re driving it in). EVs aren’t going to change any of the behavioural problems associated with mass car ownership but they can make motoring less harmful in terms of local pollution and CO2 emissions. A step in the right direction at the very least.Does that 60g/km include the CO2 from mining Cobolt – most of the worlds cobolt comes from DRC* where children digging by hand isn’t uncommon in artisanal mines, how about that from Lithium mining , does it take into account the CO2 generated from dirty energy production – we in the UK use over 46% carbon based fuel over the whole year (averaged out so higher winter/lower summer) to generate our electricty? Does it also take into account the Lithium that is not recycled because it’s cheaper to mine/use virgin?
*Minerals from DRC are now considered to be ‘conflict’ minerals by some organisations whilst other motor manufacturers talk about ethics but won’t actually say where they get their resources from cough Mercedes/VW/VOLVO etc, at least Jaguar LR admitted that they did as did BMW.
sizbut
“Furthermore, they cost
“Furthermore, they cost around 30k for a small EV. ” – Sorry, but possibly the very definition of having not read the specific article being quoted, ie. the burgeoning market of second hand sub-10K EV cars.
hobbeldehoy
Electric cars as a mode of
Electric cars as a mode of mass private transport is pie in the sky. The infrastructure to support the mass uptake of electric cars is not there and no attempt has been made to begin the countrywide installation of charging points. Furthermore, they cost around 30k for a small EV. Few can afford that. Not only that charging points would have to be installed across rural areas including the trunk roads connecting towns and cities. Then you have to consider charging time. Even rapid chargers take the best part of an hour to provide a full charge. I can imagine a lot of tailbacks waiting to charge. Then there is the 20 or so new nuclear power stations needed to provide the energy. Those take around 20 years to build at around 15 billion pounds each. Perhaps the reality is that less car ownership is the objective and people being pushed onto public transport.
Rich_cb
Read a recent review of the
Read a recent review of the new Renault Zoe, they were quoting lifecycle CO2 per Km of 60g.That’s pretty impressive and an indication of where EVs are headed in terms of CO2 emmisions. (Obviously depends on which country you’re driving it in).
EVs aren’t going to change any of the behavioural problems associated with mass car ownership but they can make motoring less harmful in terms of local pollution and CO2 emissions.
A step in the right direction at the very least.
Simon E
Further thoughts:
Further thoughts:
1. Will electric cars mean that there are no longer 1,00,000 uninsured drivers on British roads? Uninsured drivers kill 130 people a year and injure another 27,000.
2. Does driving an electric car mean people change their habits and decide to obey speed limits? Do they tailgate less often? Do they drive more cautiously on narrow country lanes? Does it have a calming effect on driver aggression, including towards women?
Simon E
They are not, and they don’t address many of the problems of car use – congestion and parking, danger to vulnerable road users, while tailpipe emissions are only part of the transport pollution problem. For example:Rick_Rude wrote:Yep, electric cars are not that green at all when you look at the overall picture.https://policy.friendsoftheearth.uk/insight/more-electric-cars
Driven to disaster: The major flaw in Labour’s Green New Deal plans
https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1137985246845120512 and https://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/on-demand/69180-001
https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-10-02/california-microplastics-ocean-study
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/07/cars-killing-us-driving-environment-phase-out
And that’s before we get onto the obesity crisis in this country while a huge proportion of car journeys are under 3 miles.
None of these publications promote e-bikes or electric mopeds, both of which are far smaller and cheaper than an e-SUV and would be a brilliant option for many households instead of a second car.
Yes I’d like to have an electric car instead of my dirty petrol one but I’ve never paid more than £2k for a car; with my modest salary, a mortgage and a family to support that’s unlikely to change. I would also like to have solar panels on the roof of my house so I could charge my car etc with sunlight but no-one’s giving those away cheaply either.
Perhaps the article is advertorial.
FluffyKittenofTindalos
I had no idea we had such
I had no idea we had such things as ‘school buses’ in this country, I thought they were purely an American thing. Clearly I live in an urban bubble. Odd, though that popular culture has long featured the US version, but I’ve never encountered reference to the UK version.
I really can’t figure out the full environmental accounting for electric cars and how it compares with conventional cars – it’s clearly very complicated.
Trouble is it’s surely clear that if there’s a choice between properly solving a problem and trying a workaround ‘fix’ with lots of unexamined hidden costs (mostly for people other than those who cause the problem), we all know which one our society, public and government will pick.
building the infra for EVs is
building the infra for EVs is going to cost hundreds of bilions and it will be private not government so that will be even more complex/expensive, where all the extra electricity is going to come from no-one has yet figured that either.
Oh wait, spend more billions on large windmills – well investment/energy companies being allowed to rape the landscape/seas with them will build them, AAAND more nuclear, becaue that’s cheap/clean!
That said I wouldn’t mind something like this with pedal assist and minus the trimmings and ridiculously expensive looking wheels for longer journeys to visit family/friends and can carry sizeable luggage possibly even a normal bike. Something like that doesn’t need a driveway and could be charged easily using solar (solar panels on the unit would be even better) or a 240v socket without the need for modifications.
It’ll certainly get you a lot, lot further for same amount of energy and have massively less environmental impact as well as the obvious in terms of less threat of harm to people. For shorter journeys I could never envisage using a car.
Oh and buses carrying 40/50 kids is a lot less pollution than 40/50 cars, buses are quite well regulated so not sure which buses you’ve seen belching black smoke out? I know my sons old high school took kids from the villages, some of which would put them 10 miles away, all country lanes, simply not doable for most kids even if it was safe so buses are still necessary in some instances.
Rick_Rude
Yep, electric cars are not
Yep, electric cars are not that green at all when you look at the overall picture.
In my opinion the worst polluters on the roads in the UK are school buses. How those pieces of black smoke belching pieces of crap get through MOTs is beyond me.
Griff500
Anyone who thinks they can
Anyone who thinks they can drive an electric car with a clear conscience needs to read up on the environmental damage being done in Tibet and Chile by lithium mines, and in central Africa through cobalt mines. -
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