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Speed issues on flat stretches of road

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  • January 15, 2018 at 8:46 pm #28026
    slippy62

    I’m 5’11, 70kgs and fortunate enough to ride good quality, lightweight bikes.  I’ve been cycling a little over 3 years now.  I average 100 miles a week.  I live in the Cotswolds.  Lumpy when I need it to be, or flatish over towards the Malverns.

    I ride with two other ‘enthusasitc amateurs’ on a frequent basis and can hold my own on the climbs, but have always struggled on the downhills (I am very cautious, and sit on the back brake all the way down).  No problem so far (I’ll never master going fast downhill, and that’s fine by me).

    Where I seem to fade, or at least, drop back consistenly on my group rides is on flat stretches of road.  I just can’t figure out what I am doing wrong!  It’s very frustrating.  I am fit, have an FTP of 255w and I can easily hold a cadence of 95/100 for 8-10 minutes.  

    The guys I pedal with seem to make it look effortless, yet I am pushing threshold just to keep up, having to sprint to catch up and then work hard to keep with them.  It’s disproportionate in effort compared to climbing.  I would be much happier at a permanent 8-13% incline that suffer the misery and embarrasment of 2 miles of 1% open road.  I know the segments locally that cost me time.  I’ve gone out solo to try and crack them and just can’t get quicker.   

    Fellow Roaders, please help – your candid views are appreciated (e.g./ man up, pedal harder, do more miles)… but even better would be useful advice about how I can train to be better at this.

     

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  • January 19, 2018 at 8:12 am #910051
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    andyp
    BBB wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    BBB wrote:
    250w is too little and 90PSI (for 28mm tyres) way too much.  

    what a strange answer. 250w is way too little for *what*? and 90PSI for 28s is way too  much…why?

    It’s not a strange answer. It’s a very simple one. 

    Objectively 250W is a moderate amount of power and clearly not enough to keep up with the other guys.

    90 PSI in 28mm tyres at 70kg is simply too much pressure. On typical UK roads it’ll slow you down, reduce comfort and distrupt the pedaling rythm. Far too many people still don’t understand what pneumatic tyres were invented for.

     

    That’s much better. Well done for qualifying your answer with some thought.

    January 19, 2018 at 8:02 am #910049
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    Pilot Pete
    alansmurphy wrote:
    700c wrote:
    Jimmy Ray Will wrote:
    As an aside, I have always marvelled at how better climbers automatically assume they are simply better riders (I say this as an embittered flat lander), or more accurately that poor climbers are simply poor riders. Horses for courses innit?  

    Lol yes I’ve often thought this. In group rides I’ve sometimes found myself going off the front on the flats or descents and getting ‘told off ‘ for it, only for the same riders to drop me on every climb without any quarms! As you say, horses for courses.

    It’s because climbers think flat is the place to reassemble and don’t figure it as a challenge, as I say I am guilty of it and learnt the stupidity of it, I mean Ian Stannard’s a beast!

    I’m the same – pummel my climbing mates on the flat where they expect us to stay together and I sit on the front and I can have them on climbs up to about 6-7% using my TT background, but when it ramps up I have to dig really deep to keep them in view!

    Funny thing was we had a conversation over coffee whilst away on a week cycling trip regarding who would actually win if we raced the routes (which were undulating/ hilly predominantly). They came to the conclusion that I would be able to drop them and gain enough advantage on the flatter stuff to still be ahead by the top of the climbs!

    As you say, funny how they expect to sit on my wheel for most of the day, with me waiting for them until the road ramps up…!

    PP

    January 18, 2018 at 8:32 pm #910047
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    dottigirl
    BBB wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    BBB wrote:
    250w is too little and 90PSI (for 28mm tyres) way too much.  

    what a strange answer. 250w is way too little for *what*? and 90PSI for 28s is way too  much…why?

    It’s not a strange answer. It’s a very simple one. 

    Objectively 250W is a moderate amount of power and clearly not enough to keep up with the other guys.

    90 PSI in 28mm tyres at 70kg is simply too much pressure. On typical UK roads it’ll slow you down, reduce comfort and distrupt the pedaling rythm. Far too many people still don’t understand what pneumatic tyres were invented for.

    You saved me typing the same thing.

    You’re bouncing off the road, and fatiguing yourself.

    I’m around 70kg and I’m running 28s – currently 60 front and 70 rear.

    January 17, 2018 at 5:58 pm #910045
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    alansmurphy

    700c wrote:

    700c wrote:
    Jimmy Ray Will wrote:
    As an aside, I have always marvelled at how better climbers automatically assume they are simply better riders (I say this as an embittered flat lander), or more accurately that poor climbers are simply poor riders. Horses for courses innit?  

     

    Lol yes I’ve often thought this. In group rides I’ve sometimes found myself going off the front on the flats or descents and getting ‘told off ‘ for it, only for the same riders to drop me on every climb without any quarms! As you say, horses for courses.

     

    It’s because climbers think flat is the place to reassemble and don’t figure it as a challenge, as I say I am guilty of it and learnt the stupidity of it, I mean Ian Stannard’s a beast!

     

    January 17, 2018 at 5:46 pm #910043
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    700c

    Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

    Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

    As an aside, I have always marvelled at how better climbers automatically assume they are simply better riders (I say this as an embittered flat lander), or more accurately that poor climbers are simply poor riders. Horses for courses innit?  

    Lol yes I’ve often thought this.

    In group rides I’ve sometimes found myself going off the front on the flats or descents and getting ‘told off ‘ for it, only for the same riders to drop me on every climb without any quarms!

    As you say, horses for courses.

    January 17, 2018 at 3:50 pm #910041
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    alansmurphy
    Jimmy Ray Will wrote:
    As an aside, I have always marvelled at how better climbers automatically assume they are simply better riders (I say this as an embittered flat lander), or more accurately that poor climbers are simply poor riders. Horses for courses innit?  

     

     

    Guilty as charged. Before I became a weekend warrior I was a commuter, before I was a commuter I liked sports that hurt. As a weekend warrior and being relatively light, I started to escape my mates on hills and enjoyed it, thought I might be naturally talented. Then started to work on hill ‘training’ and got even better, whether it be short sharp attacks or really chilling on long climbs then putting a kick in.

     

    A bigger rider joined our group and really spinned the hills. As we became a bit mock competitive it was obvious he had more power and would hurt me on flats and even slight inclines, I’d escape on those over 5%. We ‘trained’ together and it reduced the differences in each discipline, unfortunately he learnt the way to drop me on the flat was to lift the power in small increments over a long time, this resulted in me trying to suck his wheel and him gapping me when my HR was at 180 (i.e. over max). As I do the route planning though, I can still feel like King if I map correctly 🙂

    January 17, 2018 at 2:31 pm #910039
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    PRSboy

    @Slippy – How fast are you

    @Slippy – How fast are you mates going on the flat?  255w should be enough for 37kmh…

    It could be that they are just making it look easier- keep the upper body still, then its a better ‘platform’ to push power through the legs.

    I would stay in the saddle too and just wind the effort up to get back on the wheel rather than sprinting, unless you have a good aero sprint position, otherwise the extra drag from standing will offset the extra power, as well as pushing you into the red.

     

    January 17, 2018 at 1:46 pm #910037
    0
    BBB
    andyp wrote:
    BBB wrote:
    250w is too little and 90PSI (for 28mm tyres) way too much.  

    what a strange answer. 250w is way too little for *what*? and 90PSI for 28s is way too  much…why?

    It’s not a strange answer. It’s a very simple one. 

    Objectively 250W is a moderate amount of power and clearly not enough to keep up with the other guys.

    90 PSI in 28mm tyres at 70kg is simply too much pressure. On typical UK roads it’ll slow you down, reduce comfort and distrupt the pedaling rythm. Far too many people still don’t understand what pneumatic tyres were invented for.

    January 17, 2018 at 1:00 pm #910035
    0
    Jimmy Ray Will

    The obvious question that’s

    The obvious question that’s yet to be asked is what power are you running at when you are struggling to keep up on the flat? Are you running at your FTP, above or below?

    The answer to the above will dictate the relevance of the next question; was you FTP established climbing a hill, or on the flat / stationary trainer. If a trainer was the resistance set high (i.e. to simulate climbing)?

    My initial thoughts are that you are not exactly small (you’ll be punching a decent sized hole), nor are you that light, nor is your FTP exceptional. 

    For you to be dishing it out to your mates on the hills for me, means that your mates are going to be fairly heavy. The problem with heavy mates is that they have to work pretty hard on the hills, all the time. Which means they are working on their power, all the time… so they tend to naturally gravitate to being stronger on the flat when they get there.

    There could be an argument that you are not riding in the wheels effectively (your stated caution on descents is a red flag in relation to this), but personally speaking, I think you are simply better on the hills than your mates, and your mates better on the flat than you.

    As highlighted, this can be trained.

    As an aside, I have always marvelled at how better climbers automatically assume they are simply better riders (I say this as an embittered flat lander), or more accurately that poor climbers are simply poor riders. Horses for courses innit?  

     

     

     

    January 17, 2018 at 12:38 pm #910033
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    peted76

    Just another thought… and I

    Just another thought… and I might get poo poo’ed for it.. but a heavier and or more aero set of wheel rims/tyres is easier to ‘maintain speed’ than that with than a lighter or less aero rim/tyre combo. 

     

    January 17, 2018 at 12:08 pm #910031
    0
    Acm

    IanEdward wrote:

    IanEdward wrote:
    The way I’ve always understood it is that wind/air resistance punishes the lighter rider more, something to do with the F=ma equation when F is the force caused by the air pushing on your body, m is your mass and a is the (backwards) acceleration caused by the wind.

    Just to clarify, F=ma applies to anything that’s accelerating/decelerating. Riding on the flat at a constant speed, your acceleration is 0, so there’s no force due to acceleration. All the force you’re producing is to overcome air resistance, which follows a more complicated equation.

    The reason lighter riders tend to struggle more on the flat is because they’ll produce less power than a heavier rider with the same power-to-weight ratio. The percentage increase in aerodynamic drag is less than the increase in required power uphill for the heavier rider, so heavier riders do better on the flat, lighter riders in the hills

    January 17, 2018 at 11:16 am #910029
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    peted76

    Madcarew has more than nailed

    Madcarew has more than nailed what I was going to say about vo2 max and interval training, so here’s another angle.. 

     

    I ride with some fast lads,  some are monsters on the flat some are monsters up hill, most things being even, any given day one of those fast lads can be dropped on a sunday bash. That sunday group is so well formed now that they play to each others strengths, so flat monster puts in a bigger turn on the flat, hill monster leads out up the hills and keeps the pace even over the top. 

    You’ve been riding three years, although that’s probably a lot of miles, it’s not a lot of time, I’d question whether that’s just with your two mates smashing your legs up, or are you regular rider in pacelines where the group is working for the group, as a group?

    I’d refer to one of the points above and add in ‘old age and treachery will always beat youth and exuberance’.

     

     

    January 17, 2018 at 6:59 am #910027
    0
    slippy62

    Sheesh, thanks everyone for

    Sheesh, thanks everyone for their input.  In particular the detail provided by madcarew!

    For the avoidance of doubt, I can hold 95 RPM for hours – no problem.  My areas of focus are to get more aero and simply get more power through the pedals, so that I can give myself a chance of tucking in behind them and hanging on.  It’s unlikely I’ll lead from the front on this stuff!

    I also take onboard the bit about varying the training to build better legs for this.  I am Zwifting twice a week, at least during these (UK) difficult months, so I’ll try and get a workout session in to this.  And to keep myself cheery, I can always head out to the hills around me and get some elevation.

    Thanks once again, road.cc community!

    January 17, 2018 at 6:41 am #910025
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    Charlie-CarbsAndCycling

    I’m 60kg so flats can be

    I’m 60kg so flats can be tough, no1 i would say practise doing intervals on the flat

    20mins at 300w on the hills was not too hard for me but 300w on the flat was a lot harder. After 2 months of doing intervals on the flat my power is now the same on the flat and the climbs.

    Also getting aero is very important obviously and also practise holding the wheel, if you are new it can be a bit hard to hold the wheel and maintain consistent power.

    Also ask your riding partners what numbers they are doing to see if they are just doing more power than you or no

    January 17, 2018 at 1:37 am #910023
    0
    wknight

    What chain rings and casette

    What chain rings and casette are you using compared to them? They may have rings more suited for the flat. Remember the pros often change theire dependant on the route. I remember watching G struggle a bit going up the climb, but coming down he beat everyone because he had rings suitable for flatter terrain. 

     

    Look at a technique call the limit point or vanishing posint, its used om motorbikes but works just as well for bikes and teaches you how to measure your speed going into a bend so you never over cook it. If you have ever wondered how a police motorbike takes bends at high speeds, this is the answer

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