Your views please

MKultra wrote:stumps

MKultra wrote:

stumps wrote:

Everyone, please I don’t want this to end up in a slanging match I only wanted peoples views as I thought it was important to see how people felt.

One point though that does raise my eyebrows is the numerous comments about children and crb etc.
Yes he’s a convicted rapist but of an adult and not a child and is in no way a danger to children. I completely understand the role model bit for kids and he will have some who follow him but in the end he’s an average footballer and not the likes of Rooney et al with thousands if not millions of fans.

A great deal of sex offending is about power and the gratification it brings not just the act it self. The age matters not one bit. Yes he is a danger to people under 18 as he is playing for a large club that trains a lot of younger players. The culture of entitlement and the shitty attitude towards women rubs off on younger players and leads to further sexual offending. I think it’s only a matter of luck that his victim was not under 18 either – or do you think they go through the handbags looking for ID before they decide to have group sex with a girl so drunk she can hardly stand up?

We have a premier league team in the city and one of the 18 year old players was locked away for stabbing his 15 year old girlfriend to death at a party for no other reason than that he was a controlling little shit who thought he could treat women how he liked because he had made it as a professional footballer.

Don’t over simplify rape, it’s just the end result of an entire toxic culture.

I don’t normally agree with you on some topics – but on this one I do.

stumps wrote:Everyone, please

stumps wrote:

Everyone, please I don’t want this to end up in a slanging match I only wanted peoples views as I thought it was important to see how people felt.

+99, this is a really interesting discussion – as said by someone else, it’s a bit more than “what tyres for wet weather”, so it would be a shame to degrade it into a slanging match or to start using personal insults.

Bikebikebike wrote:Joeinpoole

Bikebikebike wrote:

Joeinpoole wrote:

Prompted by the wide variety of views expressed here I’ve been doing a bit of digging in an attempt to find out what actually happened.

Having done a bit of research I am now astounded that CE was convicted at all. From what I’ve read I wouldn’t even have concluded that he was guilty of the very serious crime of rape by ‘balance of probability’ … but *beyond reasonable doubt*? No way.

The complainant had never said she was raped (although apparently she may have made a previous accusation of rape). She phoned the police (12 hours after she woke up) because she awoke alone in a hotel room and her handbag and phone were missing. As it happens she’d left them in a kebab shop the night before. When the police investigated the hotel room they realised they were dealing with a couple of footballers … and a drunk girl … and went on to try and build a case of rape. There was no actual evidence of a crime having been committed so, if CE and his friend when interviewed by the police had simply replied “No comment” to all the questions, apparently the police would not have been able to charge them.

I’m still struggling to understand how the jury found one footballer guilty and the other not guilty. The girl says she can’t remember anything so it’s simply down to whether the jury accepted that each footballer had grounds to believe whether the girl was consenting to have sex with them. It seems very flimsy ground on which to convict a man of such a serious crime and ruin his life.

I have to say I’m a lot more sympathetic to CE now.

The chances of getting a rape case to trial is tiny, let alone getting a conviction. The guy’s girlfriend’s father is rich and funding a campaign to get him off. You appear to have fallen for this. He undoubtedly had top notch lawyers on his side and still got convicted, which takes some doing if you’re innocent.

More generally, the guy is a fucking rapist and I don’t want him on my telly entertaining me or my family. I guess the people on here saying he should be playing football again will all be queueing up for tickets to the Gary Glitter and Rolf Christmas comeback special at the Albert Hall. Once they’ve ‘served their time’ obviously.

Having now read the first link you gave, I am frightened that you think there is any question it was rape. Maybe you should read it again and have a little think.

Joeinpoole wrote:Prompted by

Joeinpoole wrote:

Prompted by the wide variety of views expressed here I’ve been doing a bit of digging in an attempt to find out what actually happened.

Having done a bit of research I am now astounded that CE was convicted at all. From what I’ve read I wouldn’t even have concluded that he was guilty of the very serious crime of rape by ‘balance of probability’ … but *beyond reasonable doubt*? No way.

The complainant had never said she was raped (although apparently she may have made a previous accusation of rape). She phoned the police (12 hours after she woke up) because she awoke alone in a hotel room and her handbag and phone were missing. As it happens she’d left them in a kebab shop the night before. When the police investigated the hotel room they realised they were dealing with a couple of footballers … and a drunk girl … and went on to try and build a case of rape. There was no actual evidence of a crime having been committed so, if CE and his friend when interviewed by the police had simply replied “No comment” to all the questions, apparently the police would not have been able to charge them.

I’m still struggling to understand how the jury found one footballer guilty and the other not guilty. The girl says she can’t remember anything so it’s simply down to whether the jury accepted that each footballer had grounds to believe whether the girl was consenting to have sex with them. It seems very flimsy ground on which to convict a man of such a serious crime and ruin his life.

I have to say I’m a lot more sympathetic to CE now.

The chances of getting a rape case to trial is tiny, let alone getting a conviction. The guy’s girlfriend’s father is rich and funding a campaign to get him off. You appear to have fallen for this. He undoubtedly had top notch lawyers on his side and still got convicted, which takes some doing if you’re innocent.

More generally, the guy is a fucking rapist and I don’t want him on my telly entertaining me or my family. I guess the people on here saying he should be playing football again will all be queueing up for tickets to the Gary Glitter and Rolf Christmas comeback special at the Albert Hall. Once they’ve ‘served their time’ obviously.

The second link you put up is
The second link you put up is entirely from his pov, so not exactly undisputed at all. Both players were charged, both tried, yet one is convicted and one not…you conclude therefore that evans was convicted on flimsy grounds…perhaps theyall had apersonal grudge against evans …
The evidence came from what the players said, dont forget two others were also outside filming what happened…evans got a key card by subterfuge and afterwards left by afire escape and mcdonald told the night doorman to keep an eye on the woman who was ill…thus emphasising how drunk she was…she didnt even go to the hotel with him, he turned up after getting atext from mcdonald,evans was on his way home in ataxi…the prosecution case was that the room had been rented for the purpose of taking awoman there, somewhat supported by the fact that evans was goinghome, and they both went to evans home afterwards .
What does it have to do with this case if she had made aprevious complaint? And where do you get that ‘apparent’ bit of info from?

Jimmy Ray Will

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

Bikebikebike wrote:

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

This subject… wow its a bit more engaging than ‘what tyres for a wet day’ isn’t it?

So many things to think about…

Personally, I think yes, he should be allowed back into football, his job, if his employers are willing to have him back, and as commented above, if he meets all employment requirements… i.e. does he need a CRB check in place.

I am not sure ‘role model’ is an accurate description for a footballer, however I accept that a footballer is a publicity tool so I fully understand why teams/sponsors would want to distance themselves.

So for me, its up to the club and the club alone.

As for laws stopping him returning to the game, I am not sure that is necessarily fair. His conviction and sentence was based on what was felt appropriate, once he’s done his time, he has done his time IMO.

Similarly, he was sentenced on the basis that he was unrepentant and believed his innocence. If he had admitted guilt, his sentence would have been different… so again, he has done his time in relation to his stance.

As for the crime itself… wow what a shit storm. The lesson for all men is surely stay clear of proper pissed women.

And thats maybe where the chap can save some face… I wouldn’t say he should admit his guilt, but he should get out there and tell his story for good… he was convicted of a crime he believes he is innocent of because he allowed himself to get into/take advantage of a situation that exposed him to the charge put against him… avoid.

I echo the comment above however, that the current law is rather sexist… whether a women says yes or no, its up to the man to decide if that decision is made with a clear mind… ridiculous really.

So you’ve got yourself absolutely mortal and some guy fucks you up the arse. What would you be saying at that point? I imagine you’d have a pretty good idea about who was responsible.

I can’t imagine I’d be massively happy about that.

Sorry I may have gone off on a slight tangent…regarding a previous comment. If a women says no or any derivative that is implied as no, if a woman is unable to say anything at all, basically if its anything other than a yes, its a no.

Where I question my understanding of consent if a woman says yes, or clearly acts in a favourable way, but is pissed out of her head, a man can still be culpable if she changes her mind in the cold hard light of a hangover.

The above is not in direct relation to the specific case, as I have not read the details of the case, but more a general statement in relation to comments about consent.

This is also what I was trying to say as regards the discussion re consent. Of course anything other than YES is a no.

No that is not true…
No that is not true… Consent has to be clear, and the alleged offender must have had a reasonable belief that there was consent…an absence of no does not mean yes. However if there had been consent, there is no changing the mind the next day.there is plenty of scope for changing the mind during however…

He was in a position of trust
He was in a position of trust IMHO.

Footballers at the top of the game have a huge influence on how young followers of football, in particular boys and young men see them self. Letting a rapist continue to be held up as a hero is not on. I am also bemused as to how football clubs that employ apprentices under 18 think that it’s OK to also employ a sex offender. He was a leader of men who was meant to set an example to those younger men coming up through the club, he has shown how unsuited he was to that task.

He has every right to be employed, just not in football. He should have thought of that before he thought it was clever having his way with young women who are so drunk they are throwing up and falling over. That’s not “consent” as far as I know.