Astana used acupuncture

jason.timothy.jones wrote:it

jason.timothy.jones wrote:

it actually is irrefutable evidence, these are not studies, they are meta analysis of ALL the available research, this is not cheery picked information from a part of a study, how can you even say that without reading the research

Have you read it all? I very much doubt you have even clicked on the link because its just a list of summaries of studies.

I’m sure that by shoehorning in technical sounding language you’re making yourself feel very intelligent, but all you’ve really done is gone to the Cochrane website and searched for the word “Acupuncture” and provided a link to the search result.

Using your logic, I can prove that Ghosts exist:
http://www.cochrane.org/search/site/ghosts

and also magic:
http://www.cochrane.org/search/site/magic

farrell

farrell wrote:

jason.timothy.jones wrote:

[quote=Farrell]I am more willing to be proved wrong and hold my hands up to it just being a placebo effect if you can point me in the direction of such evidence?

410 meta studies here showing no measurable effect http://www.cochrane.org/search/reviews/acupuncture%5B/quote%5D

That’s hardly irrefutable evidence, that’s a merely link to a list of 412 studies relating to acupuncture, for a multitude of different reasons. Reasons which include, from a quick glance:

Acupuncture for induction of labour,
Acupuncture for mumps in children,
Acupuncture for people with autism spectrum disorders
Acupuncture and assisted conception

So even if those studies/reviews showed that there was absolute zero value in acupuncture for those treatments (and I don’t even know if that is the case as I’ve not had the time to read them), you’d be comparing apples and oranges.

The first study I found that is related was Acupuncture for neck pain, which appears to conclude:

Individuals with chronic neck pain who received acupuncture reported, on average, better pain relief immediately after treatment and in the short-term than those who received sham treatments. Individuals with chronic neck pain with symptoms radiating to the arms who received acupuncture reported, on average, better pain relief in the short-term

So even though you condescended people about Cochrane reviews whilst comparing acupunture to having tattoos, it appears that that even they are inconclusive, although still leading to the positive for acupuncture for that particular study.

That’s hardly the same as magic anti-bear rocks now is it?

it actually is irrefutable evidence, these are not studies, they are meta analysis of ALL the available research, this is not cheery picked information from a part of a study, how can you even say that without reading the research, or understanding what inconclusive or significantly significant actually mean in scientific terms. I can find thousands of pages of information that ‘proves’ acupuncture works, but until it has been through the peer review process or compared to other similar results and then duplicated, it is worthless.

I can write a paper that (using someone else’s post) shows drinking a bottle of scotch cures the common cold, I have the appropriate qualifications, and the contacts to have this published, it wont go into a reputable journal, I will have to pay a small fee, and dodge the peer review process, but it will be published, and if I am a true scum bag I will send it to the print media as a press release first.

If you don’t believe this is what happens read Bad Science and Bad Pharma, its all in there and all backed up by actually experts in medicine and science, not just some guy with a blog on the internet

The busiest and most
The busiest and most requested GP at my surgery before he left was a family man with who felt there is a place for complementary therapies alongside pills and potions.

My parents’ GP, who recently retired from running his NHS practice, used acupuncture where he felt it would help. He too would prescribe all the usual drugs that doctors dish out.

For each of these trained and very experienced professionals you can decide if he is:
1. a ‘ real’ doctor (whatever you think that is)
2. a drug-pushing stooge paid to boost Omega Pharma’s vast profits, or
3. a self-appointed guru or quack selling snake-oil to gullible celebrities.

Tony Martin was wearing kinesiology tape during the Tour, not the first time, I believe. I know the sports therapist that works with the Atherton siblings in the GT racing team and he uses kinesio tape on the athletes. I don’t know how (or whether) it works as claimed but these professional athletes are still winning races at the highest level so I remain open-minded. I will quiz him next time we meet.

However, I always felt that Power Balance bands, as worn by numerous athletes, are a complete ripoff.

faceplant wrote:When it has

faceplant wrote:

When it has been objectively shown that it is not.

Where and when?

For a couple of years I had
For a couple of years I had regular acupuncture sessions followed up with a massage to help release tension in my shoulders and back. It was cheap, low-risk and I always felt much better afterwards – I wouldn’t have continued so long had I not. I really don’t care in the slightest if the benefits were physical or just psychological. Why would I? All the folks on a desperate crusade to point out that it’s all bunk are missing the point that the man who just won the TdF (what races have YOU won btw?) is also receiving some benefit and nobody is forcing you to have pins shoved in you so what’s the big f%#king deal?

I have some protection rocks
I have some protection rocks for sale for £20 that I guarantee with keep you safe from wild North American Brown Bears, but you must keep it on your pocket at all times, and never take it out of the UK as the chi in other regions is not powerful enough to trigger the anti North American Brown Bear defence aura

If at any time you are attacked and killed by a North American Brown Bear in the UK I will happily refund your £20

Firstly, there have been many
Firstly, there have been many studies that have proven something, that have later been disproved or found to be fraudulent, the best so far is the MMR study by Dr Andrew Wakefield, as a result of this study it is approximated that over 100,000 children have dies as a result of not being vaccinated, and millions have suffered from conditions that were easily prevented.

Secondly, the 2009 study is contentious as the control results were quite high and close enough to the acupuncture results that it was concluded that where the needles were placed may not be relevant, however acupuncture is based on needles being placed in certain areas to achieve a result.

Thirdly, the Cochrane meta analysis of acupuncture shows overwhelmingly that acupuncture does not work, if you are unaware of what a Cochrane review is, I suggest you find out, in basic terms, this is the go-to organisation for medical research and data analysis.

Fourthly, I have suffered for 20 years with chronic back pain as well as sever pain in most of my joints as a result of doing silly things like joining the Army and getting blown up and shot at a lot, I also have lots of tattoos. If you consider getting a tattoo is the equivalent of getting acupuncture at a gamma scale, not only should I never feel pain again, neither should the next 10 generations of my offspring.

Finally, as much as the placebo effect is real and largely not understood, you must remember that people get better, there are several quality studies that even show the color of a tablet increases the perceived response from a patient, but this is all self reported, there are no studies that show a placebo response to anything that can be measured by an isolated observer or by instrumentation, for instance a broken bone or open wound, so it is clear that the placebo response is controlled in the brain, not at the location of the injury or pain.

Finally-Finally, that attitude of “well whatever works” is a pile of crap, as I have said, the placebo effect is real, and is the corner stone of Alternative Therapy. The bigger problem is when celebreties or high end sports people use such treatments, the general pubic take this as an endorsement and end up wasting there hard earned cash on treatment that does not work, or works just as well as mind over matter, have a look back over the past few years, and especially the past 2 Olympic Games with the use of Kinesiology Tape which as been proven time and time again to do absolutely nothing, however more and more people are using it.

I remember a Chinese
I remember a Chinese Acupuncture doctor from France. She felt my wife’s pulse and told her that she was pregnant, and indeed she was (she wasn’t showing any visible signs of being pregnant at that time).
In Chinese medicine the pulse is measured in a different way, not just bpm. I was at the clinic to be treated not my wife at that time, the doctor was just being friendly.

In martial arts, methods were developed to target certain areas of the body with certain force. Knowledge of human body mechanics and manipulation of nerve function and blood flow. Just as acupuncture does but for beneficial function. Not really complicated, if you have the knowledge.

In essence, learn to cure first before you learn to harm. That is much harder.

That’s all for today 😀