[David9694]

Lots here I was only hazy on,  e.g. growing trade in second hand Leafs and Zoes and how far the improving batteries will get you (nb deduct 10% if you use the fan). No real answer yet to how to recharge at home if no driveway and how to re-charge away with the same assured ease of access and speed as lovely petrol.  £/mile, it looks increasingly attractive for shorter journies – the one you’d make to/from the train station, for example

interesting chicken and egg puzzle here : which came first, the Audi/BMW/Subaru driver or the Audi/BMW/Subaru car? what will be the effect on these people of going electric?

Anyway, the article was all flowing along nicely until the end paragraph:

“the fact that there are zero exhaust emissions means that you can jump in the car to drive across town with a much clearer conscience.” Entirely clear conscience, anyone?

 

Topic

[Boatsie]

Philh68 wrote:

Philh68 wrote:

Rich_cb wrote:

Read a recent review of the new Renault Zoe, they were quoting lifecycle CO2 per Km of 60g. That’s pretty impressive and an indication of where EVs are headed in terms of CO2 emmisions. (Obviously depends on which country you’re driving it in). EVs aren’t going to change any of the behavioural problems associated with mass car ownership but they can make motoring less harmful in terms of local pollution and CO2 emissions. A step in the right direction at the very least.

lifecycle CO2 is very much a function of where in the world you live and the type of power generation used. In my neck of the woods coal fired generation dominates and as such the lifecycle CO2 is far less favourable. Here a Nissan Leaf has a lifecycle CO2 rating of 154g/km, on par with my diesel Berlingo van. Tailpipe emissions is one thing, but the power they use has to be generated and they’re only as clean as the source of electricity.

Likewise, oil will still be mined given the myriad uses. There are literally hundreds of products produced from oil, even pharmaceuticals and cosmetics. I don’t expect that to stop.

It can be more effective to replace car use with bicycles, even pedelecs or ebikes. I’ve done that, one because electric cars are unsubsidised and expensive (Leaf or Zoe are fifty thousand dollars) and because they’re still inefficient compared to bikes. They’re using 15 kWh per 100km, my Tern GSD covers that in eco mode on a 400 Wh battery with a bit of help from me. I’ve cut my car use by around two thirds. I can recharge it in a few hours from rooftop solar.

This is where the value equation comes in, I reduce emissions and save money by riding instead of driving. Because I drive much less, it’s harder to justify an EV car. Eliminating consumption is more effective than substitution.

Eliminating consumption is more effective than substitution.
That’s beautiful dude.

[CXR94Di2]

Griff500 wrote:

Griff500 wrote:

CXR94Di2 wrote:

Griff500 wrote:

CXR94Di2 wrote:

I’m an EV convert. I have been using a 40KW Nissan Leaf for 18 months. We have driven 30000miles. Our electric is sourced on renewable tariff. We have moved over to Tesla now, the eldest gets the Nissan

They may not be the perfect, solution but are a step in eradicating ICE vehicles. Also they go like stink and are super smooth to drive.

I have to agree on the driveability. I recently had an i3 for a day, and despite being an ugly duckling, was great to drive. And if you stick to urban and motorway use, the infrastructure is getting there. But last time I looked at places I might want to go on holiday, like the Highlands of Scotland, or the alps, charging options seem to be limited to random hotels.

We have a 15 meter extension lead plus the 5 meters of charger lead when stopping at remote places. plug it in to wall socket. We are going beyond Inverness in our Tesla, the nearest Supercharger is Inverness. after that we will use 13amp plug

Interesting, didn’t know that was doable. How long for a full charge from a wall socket?

Quite a while, it’s around 11 miles per hour. You generally don’t go below 20% and above 80… Dedicated 7kW chargers around 10 hours and Supercharger 35 mins

[Griff500]

CXR94Di2 wrote:

CXR94Di2 wrote:

Griff500 wrote:

CXR94Di2 wrote:

I’m an EV convert. I have been using a 40KW Nissan Leaf for 18 months. We have driven 30000miles. Our electric is sourced on renewable tariff. We have moved over to Tesla now, the eldest gets the Nissan

They may not be the perfect, solution but are a step in eradicating ICE vehicles. Also they go like stink and are super smooth to drive.

I have to agree on the driveability. I recently had an i3 for a day, and despite being an ugly duckling, was great to drive. And if you stick to urban and motorway use, the infrastructure is getting there. But last time I looked at places I might want to go on holiday, like the Highlands of Scotland, or the alps, charging options seem to be limited to random hotels.

We have a 15 meter extension lead plus the 5 meters of charger lead when stopping at remote places. plug it in to wall socket. We are going beyond Inverness in our Tesla, the nearest Supercharger is Inverness. after that we will use 13amp plug

Interesting, didn’t know that was doable. How long for a full charge from a wall socket?

[CXR94Di2]

Griff500 wrote:

Griff500 wrote:

CXR94Di2 wrote:

I’m an EV convert. I have been using a 40KW Nissan Leaf for 18 months. We have driven 30000miles. Our electric is sourced on renewable tariff. We have moved over to Tesla now, the eldest gets the Nissan

They may not be the perfect, solution but are a step in eradicating ICE vehicles. Also they go like stink and are super smooth to drive.

I have to agree on the driveability. I recently had an i3 for a day, and despite being an ugly duckling, was great to drive. And if you stick to urban and motorway use, the infrastructure is getting there. But last time I looked at places I might want to go on holiday, like the Highlands of Scotland, or the alps, charging options seem to be limited to random hotels.

We have a 15 meter extension lead plus the 5 meters of charger lead when stopping at remote places. plug it in to wall socket. We are going beyond Inverness in our Tesla, the nearest Supercharger is Inverness. after that we will use 13amp plug

[Griff500]

CXR94Di2 wrote:

CXR94Di2 wrote:

I’m an EV convert. I have been using a 40KW Nissan Leaf for 18 months. We have driven 30000miles. Our electric is sourced on renewable tariff. We have moved over to Tesla now, the eldest gets the Nissan

They may not be the perfect, solution but are a step in eradicating ICE vehicles. Also they go like stink and are super smooth to drive.

I have to agree on the driveability. I recently had an i3 for a day, and despite being an ugly duckling, was great to drive. And if you stick to urban and motorway use, the infrastructure is getting there. But last time I looked at places I might want to go on holiday, like the Highlands of Scotland, or the alps, charging options seem to be limited to random hotels.

[Griff500]

pastyfacepaddy wrote:

pastyfacepaddy wrote:

I’m quite surprised by the degree of whatabouttery and misinformation being floated around on here with regards EV’s. .

This from the same guy who said lithium is produced commercially from seawater!

[CXR94Di2]

I’m an EV convert. I have
I’m an EV convert. I have been using a 40KW Nissan Leaf for 18 months. We have driven 30000miles. Our electric is sourced on renewable tariff. We have moved over to Tesla now, the eldest gets the Nissan

They may not be the perfect, solution but are a step in eradicating ICE vehicles. Also they go like stink and are super smooth to drive.

[Griff500]

pastyfacepaddy wrote:

pastyfacepaddy wrote:

Griff500 wrote:

Anyone who thinks they can drive an electric car with a clear conscience needs to read up on the environmental damage being done in Tibet and Chile by lithium mines, and in central Africa through cobalt mines.

Have you got a link to that as I understood that modern Lithium was extracted from sea water with an increasing amount of energy provided by solar.

 

< .

Just Google lithium production ffs! There is minimal commercial production from seawater. Most comes from onland salt deposits, using huge amounts of water to extract, which in Chile is stealing water from agriculture. Tibet has large scale pollution from chinese effluent.

[FluffyKittenofTindalos]

hawkinspeter wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

I’d say they’re both valid types of logical fallacies.

 

I don’t think I agree.  The latter (like Godwin) gets misused almost universally.  Pointing out hypocrisy, or pointing out that there are drawbacks to both of two possible choices, are valid things to do, but tend to get dismissed as ‘whatabouttery’ (the latter seems to be the way it’s used in this thread).  Why should hypocrites get to use the term to avoid acknowledging or addressing their hypocrisy?

 

The term has very political roots, after all, as wiki demonstrates.

 

(The fallacy is surely Tu quoque, and that term doesn’t carry the same political undertones and whiff of concealing hypocrisy or ignoring the drawbacks of the proposed alternative choice…the ‘whatabouttery’ term has too much extra baggage for my liking…it irritates me…almost as much as the overuse of the word ‘narrative’)

[Philh68]

Rich_cb wrote:

Rich_cb wrote:

Read a recent review of the new Renault Zoe, they were quoting lifecycle CO2 per Km of 60g. That’s pretty impressive and an indication of where EVs are headed in terms of CO2 emmisions. (Obviously depends on which country you’re driving it in). EVs aren’t going to change any of the behavioural problems associated with mass car ownership but they can make motoring less harmful in terms of local pollution and CO2 emissions. A step in the right direction at the very least.

lifecycle CO2 is very much a function of where in the world you live and the type of power generation used. In my neck of the woods coal fired generation dominates and as such the lifecycle CO2 is far less favourable. Here a Nissan Leaf has a lifecycle CO2 rating of 154g/km, on par with my diesel Berlingo van. Tailpipe emissions is one thing, but the power they use has to be generated and they’re only as clean as the source of electricity.

Likewise, oil will still be mined given the myriad uses. There are literally hundreds of products produced from oil, even pharmaceuticals and cosmetics. I don’t expect that to stop.

It can be more effective to replace car use with bicycles, even pedelecs or ebikes. I’ve done that, one because electric cars are unsubsidised and expensive (Leaf or Zoe are fifty thousand dollars) and because they’re still inefficient compared to bikes. They’re using 15 kWh per 100km, my Tern GSD covers that in eco mode on a 400 Wh battery with a bit of help from me. I’ve cut my car use by around two thirds. I can recharge it in a few hours from rooftop solar.

This is where the value equation comes in, I reduce emissions and save money by riding instead of driving. Because I drive much less, it’s harder to justify an EV car. Eliminating consumption is more effective than substitution.

[Boatsie]

iandusud wrote:

iandusud wrote:

Simon E wrote:

Rick_Rude wrote:

Yep, electric cars are not that green at all when you look at the overall picture.

They are not, and they don’t address many of the problems of car use – congestion and parking, danger to vulnerable road users, while tailpipe emissions are only part of the transport pollution problem. For example:

https://policy.friendsoftheearth.uk/insight/more-electric-cars

Driven to disaster: The major flaw in Labour’s Green New Deal plans

https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1137985246845120512 and https://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/on-demand/69180-001

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-10-02/california-microplastics-ocean-study

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/07/cars-killing-us-driving-environment-phase-out

And that’s before we get onto the obesity crisis in this country while a huge proportion of car journeys are under 3 miles.

None of these publications promote e-bikes or electric mopeds, both of which are far smaller and cheaper than an e-SUV and would be a brilliant option for many households instead of a second car.

Yes I’d like to have an electric car instead of my dirty petrol one but I’ve never paid more than £2k for a car; with my modest salary, a mortgage and a family to support that’s unlikely to change. I would also like to have solar panels on the roof of my house so I could charge my car etc with sunlight but no-one’s giving those away cheaply either.

Perhaps the article is advertorial.

From the Friend of the Earth link. 

“Cancel all new road schemes and use the funding for public transport, walking and cycling.”

This!

Nice 1.

When I was studying bachelor of Engineering Electrical and Electronic , electric cars were not fashionable. Yet our head professors father in-law made his own using a small 4 cylinder car. Basically the engine was replaced with a machine, the gearbox was locked into 3rd forward ratio and 5 car batteries were placed in the boot. Range about 80km. Recyclable.
Obesity crisis.. Definitely. My friends wonder why I walk in the rain between our houses yet the distances are less than 1 km.
Never winning an argument with an idiot. Obesity is sometimes body. Lots of unneeded home medicines exist nowadays too. Fit able body people that don’t understand they are trending towards obesity of the head.
I might ride that distance if dry but even if hammering down, wearing clothes that come off before or after walking in the door isn’t difficult.

Seems like people want to win without the enjoyment of needed effort.

7 years of battery is where I think. Can they be recycled now?
Lead acid, AGMs seem nice but they don’t like high current and prefer a longer life by being kept charged. Lithium is far superior regarding memory, high current applications such as larger horsepower machines, the older lithium ions had a preference of 4 ℃at 40% charge which is why I rotate my head light batteries at start of dimming and keep all (charged and low energy batteries) in my fridge door.

Too bro. A cheap vehicle. Uses 5litres /100km yet has a wide body

[hawkinspeter]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

I’d say they’re both valid types of logical fallacies.

[FluffyKittenofTindalos]

hobbeldehoy wrote:

When our local council uses an electric car it frequently has to be towed back by a diesel powered tow truck because the battery couldn’t make the distance. But councillors and the council management don’t have to live in the real world. Electric car peters out on a cold, wet, windy day? No problem just call out the tow truck, council tax payers will cover it and we can continue to feel ever so warm and special with our morally superior attitude.

 

That’s one of those things I can either believe or be skeptical about, and I just can’t tell, dammit. 

 

Pointless gestures by councillors who want to feel virtuous vs dodgy Daily-Mail-style anecdotes that are misreported or true but not at all representative?  Both are entirely possible.

 

  Needs some properly-conducted study on use of electric vehicles by councils generally to work out where the truth lies.

[FluffyKittenofTindalos]

pastyfacepaddy wrote:

Wish people would stop using those terms/phrases. Like strawman? 🙂

As you can see I didn’t use it to avoid any of the points but I think it fits perfectly when something is used as a distraction away from the question being asked such as uninsured drivers and whether increases of EV’s would impact that completely unrelated issue. I also don’t mind using  the other terms you’ve listed as I think they absolutely have a place  in calling out fakery and distracting from the initial question being asked.  (yes I acknowledge the irony there given the reason for your dislike of them) 🙂

Ideally i think the move away from private ownership is key especially in urban areas as you mention and for the remaining I’d prefer to see Hydrogen fuel cells as the preferred fuel for transport but that seems to be a long way away and I honestly think EV’s are a useful and necessary step towards honing the technology required and adjustment of people’s attitudes and habits.

EV’s should not be allowed anywhere near a bus lane unless the bus is an EV. 100% agree on that one.

I’m not sure why the skepticsm about green tariffs though? I use X amounts of units and my supplier (Bulb who supply 100% green energy) either generates or acquires that same amount of units from other generators produced using renewables.  The more demand for green energy the more energy is produced using green means. The level of micro generation is increasing and some people now are producing over 90% of their own energy using storage. They produce and charge battery storage during the day while they’re out and then use that to power their homes during the evening including topping up their EV’s at night.

 

I’m going totally off-topic, but I’d suggest “straw man”  is a well-defined, long-standing label for a logical fallacy, whereas “whataboutery” is a much more recent invention (Americans seem to think it’s to do with Russia and the Cold war, while here the term clearly came out of arguments about Northern Ireland) that 90% of the time isn’t a valid objection.  It’s perfectly reasonable to point to analogous issues in order to try and clarify what general principle, if any, the person making an argument is appealing to, and that’s what usually seem to elicit an accusation of ‘whataboutery’.  In this case I just am not clear what you are referring to by the term.

 

Anyway, with environmental issues the main thing is I believe they have to be addressed at the governmental/legal level or above, not left to individual lifestyle choices.

 

  With green energy, most cases when you pay a ‘green tariff’ the supplier still produces the same amount of renewable or non-renewable power, they can’t distinguish between different types of electricity they are sending you.  The whole competitive market in utilites is weird anyway, all they are are competing billing agencies, for the most part, they don’t send individual customers their own special electricity, it’s all thrown in together.  _Maybe_ its a sort of ‘signal’ to indicate a desire for more renewable generation, but that really needs to be done through the ballot box and government/legal action, it seems to me.

 

I  also distrust the ‘feed-in tafiffs’ thing – that seems to come down to those who don’t have large houses with roofs, and the capital to pay for solar panels etc, having to pay a premium to subsidise those who do.  It can become a very regressive tax.

 

  And I don’t think micro-generation is generally much use, micro-wind in particular seems to be useless in urban areas (what’s that big building at elephant and castle with wind turbines that I’ve never seen move since the building was constructed?).

I’m sure it’s cost-effective, even without subsidies, for people fortunate enough to live in the right places, where there’s a lot of sun and/or wind).  But I don’t think it should be subisidised to the point where it’s more about regressive redistribution than actually helping the environment.

[Simon E]

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

I had no idea we had such things as ‘school buses’ in this country, I thought they were purely an American thing.  Clearly I live in an urban bubble.  Odd, though that popular culture has long featured the US version, but I’ve never encountered reference to the UK version.

The cost of school transport is a significant issue in rural counties. In Shropshire buses, provided by local companies contracted by the council, run on specific routes and pick up children within the school’s catchment (this may be up to 10 or more miles from a secondary school, usually less for primaries). Some routes are along narrow country lanes.

In neighbouring Powys the situation is worse as the population density is lower so an even greater proportion of school pupils travel by bus from outlying areas. This is a significant issue for the council in an area where wages are particularly low.

Most post-16 colleges also have transport provided. Many of them charge for transport where it is provided. However, Reaseheath college in Nantwich has free transport from all points of the compass 5 days a week during term time, some buses collect from up to 50 miles away. I have no idea how it is funded.

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Trouble is it’s surely clear that if there’s a choice between properly solving a problem and trying a workaround ‘fix’ with lots of unexamined hidden costs (mostly for people other than those who cause the problem), we all know which one our society, public and government will pick.

I’d describe it not as a workaround but more of a refusal to acknowledge the harm done by cars, both socially and environmentally. I suspect the status quo is maintained due to a combination of the fear of voter rebellion and the unrelenting industry lobbying.

The vast majority of people in this country would rather lose a limb than reduce their car use for the sake of other people’s health (or even their own) or something as nebulous and distant as the threat posed by climate change to the future of humanity: “Yeah, of course I want to save the planet but not right now, I have booked a foreign holiday for the family, a group of us are off to Mallorca for a week in March then going on a cycling trip to the Alps in July, and how am I supposed to do my work every day when I live 40 miles from the office? And none of the events I like to do are local so I drive half way across the country to do a bike ride”.

Even if none of the new cars are manufactured in the UK there is a huge amount of money invested and people employed in vehicle dealerships, component suppliers and dealers, repairs and maintenance, even things like tyre depots and the secondhand market. And that’s before we consider the roadbuilding sector. That’s a lot of voters to upset as well as a lot of spending power (and therefore taxation) to lose.

[Author]

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