Early morning ride fuel

Carton wrote:

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

If you want to lose weight, the trick is to burn as many calories as you can in a sustainable way... i.e. training as hard as you can, for as long as you can, as often as you can. 

It's the most fun way to go about it, as well.

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

Truth is, your body will work better fueled. You can not argue that a starved body will outperform a fueled one. 

Sure, but the OP isn't talking about replacing rides, or fasted training as the cornerstone of a proper training plan, but about how to fuel up for an early morning ride. It seems that the big thing that you can quickly digest in time to have an impact on your training is sugar. But, assuming you're not skipping meals, you should have more than enough glucose stored in your muscles to get you through even moderately intense rides. And your body won't be warmed up enough for a maximal effort at that point anyway. What I was getting at, if anything, is that if you're riding early, and it doesn't impact your enjoyment of riding (or you just want to try something different, which I think can also be useful), riding fasted doesn't seem to hurt (at least not in my particular case). In fact, from the research, it looks like at the margins it could actually help. Not that I'm too fussed about it personally, as I'm just looking at trying to get as many rides in as I can. But YMMV, as ever.

It also means more time in bed (good sleep being important for lots of physical - and psychological - reasons!).

I eat breakfast at work principally because it saves my own time in the morning. If gently riding to work beforehand helps me burn a bit more fat then that's great too.

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

Man I hate all the publicity around fasted state riding.

I guess you only watch BBC, since the adverts on other channels would blow your head off.

Surely it's only "publicity" when it's produced by a company trying to make money. Sometimes it's people doing something differently (although there are lots of people producing similar content for money, but that applies to everything on the internet nowadays). Some of us resent the way people regurgitate sports nutrition marketing blurb as The Only Way.

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

Personally speaking, I'd be at the absolute end of my training tether to start replacing fueled rides for fasted ones.

That's fine but it would be more constructive if you didn't simply dismiss other opinions or experiences.

Simon E wrote:

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

Man I hate all the publicity around fasted state riding.

I guess you only watch BBC, since the adverts on other channels would blow your head off.

Surely it's only "publicity" when it's produced by a company trying to make money. Sometimes it's people doing something differently (although there are lots of people producing similar content for money, but that applies to everything on the internet nowadays). Some of us resent the way people regurgitate sports nutrition marketing blurb as The Only Way.

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

Personally speaking, I'd be at the absolute end of my training tether to start replacing fueled rides for fasted ones.

That's fine but it would be more constructive if you didn't simply dismiss other opinions or experiences.

Not so - here is some non-money making "publicity"

https://www.northumbria.ac.uk/about-us/news-events/news/2013/01/lose-fat...

And just like Actimel it's scientifically proven. Consequently I stuff myself before every morning ride but still find myself sliding south of 10 stone.

Simon E wrote:

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

Man I hate all the publicity around fasted state riding.

I guess you only watch BBC, since the adverts on other channels would blow your head off.

Surely it's only "publicity" when it's produced by a company trying to make money. Sometimes it's people doing something differently (although there are lots of people producing similar content for money, but that applies to everything on the internet nowadays). Some of us resent the way people regurgitate sports nutrition marketing blurb as The Only Way.

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

Personally speaking, I'd be at the absolute end of my training tether to start replacing fueled rides for fasted ones.

That's fine but it would be more constructive if you didn't simply dismiss other opinions or experiences.

My point around publicity is simply that a lot of people are focusing attention in this one area, when there are probably better and more enjoyable ways to achieve goals.

My post was questionning whether the fasted route, like many other 'new' methods that come about is stiffling other opinions and opinions being considered... so essentially I was suggesting the publicity about fasting is doing exactly what you are accusing me of.

I wouldn't say I 'simply dismissed' anything, I thought I'd explained why I don't advocate the approach... what more would you like me to add to make my point. 

And when I am taklking about publicity, I'm not moaning about anyone on this htread, I'm simply saying that from the comments on this thread, fasting seems to be seen as the way forward, which is a result of all teh publicity out there on this subject currently.

You are right about the nutrition blurb though... far toomuch emphasis is spent looking at something that for the majority is a minor thing. 

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

My point around publicity is simply that a lot of people are focusing attention in this one area, when there are probably better and more enjoyable ways to achieve goals.

When you say "better and more enjoyable" how does that relate to whether someone eats before an early morning ride? What other areas do you feel are missing out on because of this?

The reason I started commuting empty was because I didn't enjoy the sensation of being full of breakfast before hopping on the bike (and often peckish again a short time after starting work). That was 10 years ago. I didn't get tricked into it by an internet LCHF guru. I've recently taken to eating less and less during longer rides and find I am also not as hungry when I get back from a ride. If I came home feeling worse I'd reconsider my feeding methods.

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

My post was questionning whether the fasted route, like many other 'new' methods that come about is stiffling other opinions and opinions being considered... so essentially I was suggesting the publicity about fasting is doing exactly what you are accusing me of.

It's popular at the moment but is it really new? Also, contradicting other popular advice (e.g. to take in carbs every 20 minutes) is not stifling anything. Isn't it merely an alternative POV? Nobody's suggesting we all must do it. My experience in these discussions is that it's more often the people saying that you need gels and powders on a ride that don't like to read anything that contradicts this assertion.

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

And when I am taklking about publicity, I'm not moaning about anyone on this htread, I'm simply saying that from the comments on this thread, fasting seems to be seen as the way forward, which is a result of all teh publicity out there on this subject currently.

I'm not sure I quite understand. If people are trying it and liking it does it matter how they first heard about it?

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

Man I hate all the publicity around fasted state riding. Yes, there is some evidence that there is a marginal gain to be had in fat utilisation from doing some fasted riding, but we are talking about tiny percentages.

Personally speaking, I'd be at the absolute end of my training tether to start replacing fueled rides for fasted ones.

Personally speaking, I've noticed that during the past year I'm less hungry on my longer (60 miles+) rides, and need to take in much less fuel. Over the last year I've done similar overall mileage to previous years,  with actually fewer longer rides. Main difference? Fasted morning commutes - easy, HR zone 2/3, 15 miles. Possibly other factors, but that's the only big change.

I've shifted a bit  of timber too (7lbs-ish), which can't have done any harm (pretty confident it's been flab that's gone).

To be fair, my training routine is very much influenced by my commuting. Ideally, I wouldn't choose 2 x 15 miles daily as the basis for a routine, and, given that I don't want to get to work in bits, I need to get as much value from an easy morning ride as I can. The home legs I mix it up a bit, throw a few sprints in, go full(er) gas all the way,  take minor detours etc.

So, I gave fasted riding a go on that basis. Pretty happy with (what I perceive to be) the results.

Simon E wrote:

My suggestion: eat nothing beforehand, just have warm water.

Take a couple of things to eat with you - flapjack, malt loaf cut into slices/chunks, fig roll or whatever you like to nibble. If you get peckish after an hour or so then have one.

After doing this for a while you may feel you can go longer before needing to eat. It shouldn't be too long before you can easily ride for 2 hours at a medium pace without needing any food.

+1.  I used to be totally useless in the morning before breakfast, I couldn't function or even think about functioning without at least a bowl of cornflakes.  I now frequently go out early and can ride for up to 2 and a half hours without eating.  I always take small snacks with me like Simon says above, and will tuck in to them any time after an hour depending on how far I am going or how I feel on the day.

I'd try doing different things, try fasting some times, try some of the other suggestions.  

I believe a fasted ride is only properly beneficial if you stay in z1 or z2.  Apparently if you go into z3, your metabolism cranks up a notch and you're not just digesting stored fat.  I find it VERY hard on the road to stay under z3, a small hill or turn into the wind and you're up out of z2.

Daveyraveygravey wrote:

Simon E wrote:

My suggestion: eat nothing beforehand, just have warm water.

Take a couple of things to eat with you - flapjack, malt loaf cut into slices/chunks, fig roll or whatever you like to nibble. If you get peckish after an hour or so then have one.

After doing this for a while you may feel you can go longer before needing to eat. It shouldn't be too long before you can easily ride for 2 hours at a medium pace without needing any food.

 

 

I believe a fasted ride is only properly beneficial if you stay in z1 or z2.  Apparently if you go into z3, your metabolism cranks up a notch and you're not just digesting stored fat.  I find it VERY hard on the road to stay under z3, a small hill or turn into the wind and you're up out of z2.

Is this true?

Was going to get into fasted early rides, but this would make me think twice about it.

Google brought up this T-Nation article, but it's low on the science stuff.

https://www.t-nation.com/training/fasted-cardio-eats-muscle

unconstituted wrote:

Is this true?

 

Was going to get into fasted early rides, but this would make me think twice about it.

This Men's Fitness article quotes the study researcher which states that the exercising participants carried out intense exercise, the study showed that weight-loss was greater for those in a fasted state and they hypothesised that it should also work for less intense exercise.

Sounds like Z3 is fine, even Z4 & 5.

http://www.mensfitness.com/nutrition/what-to-eat/breakfast-before-or-after-a-workout

Nudecyclist wrote:

unconstituted wrote:

Is this true?

 

Was going to get into fasted early rides, but this would make me think twice about it.

This Men's Fitness article quotes the study researcher which states that the exercising participants carried out intense exercise, the study showed that weight-loss was greater for those in a fasted state and they hypothesised that it should also work for less intense exercise.

Sounds like Z3 is fine, even Z4 & 5.

http://www.mensfitness.com/nutrition/what-to-eat/breakfast-before-or-after-a-workout

That does sound good, but it doesn't help with the muscle loss charge re: cortisol and catabolism that T-Nation put out. Also those guys were on a calorie surplus in that MH referenced study which lets face it - you wouldn't do that if you were fasted riding in the morning as the purpose is to lose bodyfat. 

This isn't looking clear cut now. Going to see where this muscle loss claim is coming from later today, must be a study kicking around about it.

unconstituted wrote:

Daveyraveygravey wrote:

I believe a fasted ride is only properly beneficial if you stay in z1 or z2.  Apparently if you go into z3, your metabolism cranks up a notch and you're not just digesting stored fat.  I find it VERY hard on the road to stay under z3, a small hill or turn into the wind and you're up out of z2.

 

Is this true?

 

Was going to get into fasted early rides, but this would make me think twice about it.

I don't find those kind of efforts have any impact on how well I go further into the ride.

The only way to be sure is to try it for yourself. Nothing ventured...

unconstituted wrote:

Daveyraveygravey wrote:

 

 

 

I believe a fasted ride is only properly beneficial if you stay in z1 or z2.  Apparently if you go into z3, your metabolism cranks up a notch and you're not just digesting stored fat.  I find it VERY hard on the road to stay under z3, a small hill or turn into the wind and you're up out of z2.

 

Is this true?

Yes, but it doesn't negate the fact you are still using stored fat, but as your effort increases you also utilise glycogen stores.

 

Was going to get into fasted early rides, but this would make me think twice about it.

 

Google brought up this T-Nation article, but it's low on the science stuff.

https://www.t-nation.com/training/fasted-cardio-eats-muscle

Tnation is a lifting site and though they have some guys who do know their stuff, there is ittle science to back up this claim in the real world. I suggest you do a google scholar search. You will find that there is plenty of evidence that fasted exercise can improve your rate of fat utilisation. Phinney and Vorlek are a good place to start. 

For endurance performance it is quite possible improve fat utilisation to the point it is the primary energy source in zone 3-4. I went on a 112 mile ride last weekend. It was made up of 8,000 ft of climbing and we averaged 17.5 mph. I had no breakfast before leaving and consumed a total of 600 calories on the ride (2 meusli bars, 2 gel shots and 1 sports drink mix). My average HR was at the lower end of zone 3 for the ride, but all the climbs were done well into zone 4 (within 5 bpm of threshold). The majority of energy for the ride was from fat utilisation 

 

Daveyraveygravey wrote:

...

I believe a fasted ride is only properly beneficial if you stay in z1 or z2.  Apparently if you go into z3, your metabolism cranks up a notch and you're not just digesting stored fat.  I find it VERY hard on the road to stay under z3, a small hill or turn into the wind and you're up out of z2.

A fasted ride is beneficial for fat burning at any level (z1 - 5+) however once out of zone 2 you are also using glycogen reserves (the stored form of carbohydrate). Your contribution of fat to your total energy consumption from reserves may drop as a percentage, but the absolute value will drop very little. A steady state ride that is generally in z1 +2 will use the most fat as a %ge of energy supplied. However, broaching Z3 + will not negate this.

BrokenBootneck wrote:

Cheers for the replies guys, I'm looking at 40 miles I suppose, though probably starting at 30 as since knee surgery I've not been doing too many long rides and need to start building up again, there will be some fasted 20ish mile rides, but looking to do a couple of longer rides early doors too. 

For 20 - 40 miles there is really no need to eat prior to training, and certainly not 3 hours before hand. However, if you want to provide fuel for your ride anything with carbohydrate will be fine. A friend of mine who is a former pro rider and now one of NZ's top sports physiologists says "anything with peanut butter"

Eating post ride is more important physiologically speaking than pre-ride. Post ride if you have done a hard workout, then a simple form of protein soon after the ride followed by something with carbs an hour or so later provides 'the best' support for recovery.