Cycle helmets save lives says a consultant paediatric neurosurgeon from Bristol – just a fortnight after a brain surgeon in London said that there was no point in riders wearing “flimsy little helmets” to protect their heads.
Michael Carter of Bristol Children's Hospital says he treats an average of three children a month who have suffered a head injury while cycling that he believes would not have happened if they had been wearing a helmet, reports the Bristol Post.
His views conflict with those of Henry Marsh of St George’s Hospital in Tooting, South London, who as we reported last month said that helmets had not benefited patients in his care who had been involved in bike crashes.
Mr Marsh told the Hay Festival: “I ride a bike and I never wear a helmet. In the countries where bike helmets are compulsory there has been no reduction in bike injuries whatsoever.
“I see lots of people in bike accidents and these flimsy little helmets don’t help.”
He also cited research by Dr Ian Walker from the University of Bath who found that motorists gave less space to riders wearing helmets, because they perceived them as being safer than those without the headgear.
But Mr Carter insisted that the case against wearing helmets was “weak” and often founded on research that was small in sample size. He also said his experience at work contrasted with that of Mr Marsh.
In support of his views, he cited Cochrane Review studies which combine the results of a number of studies from around the world.
He said: "We get an enormous number of cycling accidents coming in here. The vast majority of head injuries seen are not life threatening. But often [they are] painful and disruptive and require inpatient treatment. Generally it's easy to see that they could have been reduced or prevented if they were wearing helmets."
Among criticisms levelled at Cochrane Reviews in the area of cycle helmets, however, is that they are not truly independent since some reviewers have focused on their own studies and discount others, and that they do not address rotational injuries.
Another concern expressed at some studies from jurisdictions where helmets are compulsory is that they fail to analyse any perceived drop in head injuries among cyclists in the context of reduced levels of riding bikes once people have become legally obliged to wear a helmet.
CTC and Sustrans both oppose compulsion in the UK because they believe the overall health benefits associated with cycling in relation to the population as a whole outweigh any reduction in the number of cyclists they believe would follow helmets being made mandatory.
Mr Carter cited one recent instance where a youngster was struck in the head by a wing mirror and he maintained that had they been wearing a helmet, they would have been uninjured.
The circumstances of the incident were not reported, so it is unclear whether the child rode into the car, or the vehicle struck the youngster, in which case the incident could perhaps have been avoided altogether had the driver given the cyclist more room.
Unlike Mr Marsh, who has been cycling for 40 years and sports a cowboy hat while on his bike, Mr Carter no longer rides one following three separate incidents last year in which two of his friends were seriously injured and another killed.
While some might see that decision as being one based on his individual experience, unfortunate as it is, rather than looking at the wider picture, he asserts that his home city is unsafe for bike riders.
"Bristol is advertised as a cycling friendly city,” he said. “But it's actually an old Victorian city with small narrow roadways and a large volume of traffic. The roads were never designed for motorists and cyclists to use together.
"Cycle paths are incomplete throughout the city and this poses a real risk to cycle traffic. Wearing a helmet is simple and cheap. It's a minor inconvenience that at worst might be uncomfortable on a hot day, but at best might save your life."






















122 thoughts on “Cycle helmets save lives says Neurosurgeon – in ongoing helmet row”
Quote:Mr Carter insisted that
Which is, of course, the case for wearing helmets too.
I’m sure specific data is
I’m sure specific data is quite difficult to find but the cochrane review mentioned above is a meta analysis covering several papers with good sample sizes. In the end both articles are based on the opinions and experiences of two neurosurgeons and count for a lot less than papers with large samples. There is a good amount of evedence in favour of wearing helmets, you just need to know where to look.
They really do cover
They really do cover everything when you study to become a brain surgeon don’t they? I wonder how many days they spend reading ANSI specifications on helmets, protection levels, impact speeds, etc…
I have had too bad falls in
I have had too bad falls in the last 18 months where I have trashed the helmet yet had no head injuries. In both cases I hit the ground hard and I believe that without the helmet someone would have been calling an ambulance for me. Of course a helmet won’t protect against everything but I can’t understand why you would not wear something that’s adds protection without interfering with the enjoyment of cycling.
Fipzee wrote:I can’t
You wear it when in a car and urban walking too, to be consistent?
vbvb wrote:Fipzee wrote:I
I don’t – but then when I drive, I drive a car with air-bags and whilst wearing a seat-belt… perhaps some type of neck restraint might be more appropriate should I take further measures.
As a pedestrian I try and pay particular attention when crossing roads and much of my urban walks are in 20mph zones. So for me, the risk factors are radically different and wearing a helmet for all three activities would not be ‘consistent’.
fukawitribe wrote:
As a
some numbers
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/269601/rrcgb-2012-complete.pdf
So getting worse for non drivers?
Definitely not looking good is it?
Pretty crap that, can’t even drive and not safe on the roads…
are cars safe in an urban environment with that sort of breakdown?
that is a lot of accidents!
and people keep on banging on about helmets, I would suggest there are more pressing concerns if you want to tackle road safety!
mrmo wrote:fukawitribe
Indeed, some old favourites there and some new ones which are interesting. Not sure the relevance to my point mind, but still all good.
fukawitribe wrote:
Indeed,
F*** helmets, they are a distraction from the real debate, why do www allow car drivers free reign, why do we accept that killing people is acceptable?
Lets have a real debate, how can we stop people dying, not this phoney debate about hi viz and helmets.
mrmo wrote:fukawitribe
Fine – quite agree with your feelings. I was merely responding to a comment which I felt was mis-applying statistics to make a point. Not sure why I happen to be the lucky one you chose to jump down their throat.
Fipzee wrote:I have had too
That you think the fact you can’t understand is relevant is why you are a tosser. It isn’t, for others it does make things less enjoyable and convenient and more expensive.
Why is it that almost all the stupidity is on the side of helmet-promoters? You can say “there is statistically significant evidence they are useful” and leave it at that.
nuclear coffee wrote:Fipzee
Do you have to be so offensive towards other peoples views? Why are you right, the other person wrong?
nuclear coffee wrote:
Why is
Oh I don’t know – I think some might consider calling someone a ‘tosser’ because they disagree, in a perfectly polite manner, with your view as a pretty good indicator of stupidity.
At last. Some common sense.
At last. Some common sense. That wearing a helmet made you more at risk from car drivers has never had anything to do with the impact of head on pavement versus head encased in polystyrene on pavement argument. That Marsh wears a cowboy hat doesn’t surprise me. He probably wears a bike helmet on a horse and a beret in the bath. 8}
Those that think helmets can’t make a difference under any circumstances have either yet to hit their head on the road – of have hit the road with their head already.
I refer you to my footer…
MercuryOne wrote:
Those that
Hit the ground plenty of time, hit trees, branches, rocks etc as well.
So from my experiences. on two occasions i have had glasses take a chunk out of my cheek, i have had stitches twice on my chin, i have had my upper lip supper glued back together, i have had an iodine soaked brillo pad used to scrub my face*
So obviously my head has hit the ground a few times.
and how many helmets have i actually damaged, one, the last crash didn’t leave a mark on the helmet even though i broke my Oakleys and that was on a muddy road. Was i wearing a helmet for all those other crashes? no.
Other injuries, well neck pain when i missed judged the height of a branch, the helmet got caught and i got my head yanked back. a bee sting when a bee flew in the vent and didn’t go out again.
I suppose it did stop me getting a bat caught in my hair i guess when i hit one when heading home after a late shift.
Helmets make a decent place to mount head lights, obviously a small metal lump strapped to the shell makes a very effective impact magnifier.
To be clear if you want to wear a helmet do so, if you don’t do so. I would rather you ride a bike than worry about helmets, hi viz, etc. Why should pedestrians and cyclists play the drivers game and let them off for their shit driving?
* very odd sensation, they used local anathesthetic so whilst it should have hurt just a bit messy as the blood got splattered around.
MercuryOne wrote:Those that
All well and good, but who’s actually trying to stop you from wearing a helmet? If we’re going to have the whole helmet debate at all, can we at least stick to what that debate is really about – the proposition of a compulsory helmet law? There are really very few people who’ll claim that a helmet will never offer any protection whatsoever in any circumstances. And nobody – literally nobody – is trying to stop you from wearing a cycle helmet if you choose to do so.
However, there are very vocal groups actively campaigning to stop you from legally getting on a bike if you’re not wearing a helmet. And that, right there, is the debate. Whether or not cycling in even it’s most innocuous form is, statistically, so inherently dangerous that it should be enforced by law that protective head gear needs to be worn at all times. (It isn’t). And whether cycle helmets are such an effective preventative measure against the majority of causes of serious injuries inflicted on cyclists on our roads that they justify their specification in such a law (they’re not). And whether or not a compulsory helmet law would discourage significant numbers from taking up cycling in the first place, and whether or not that would have implications for public health, road congestion, pollution and the environment…
Yes wearing a helmet is not a bad idea and will offer you some protection in certain circumstances. By all means wear one if you want to (I nearly always do), and recommend them to others if you feel that way inclined (I sometimes do that too). But recommending something and making it a legal obligation are two very different things. And the second one shouldn’t happen unless the statistical, scientific, societal and political considerations in it’s favour are absolutely compelling. Which, as far as legal helmet obligation goes, is not even close to being the case.
Oh, and until the case for obligation is compellingly made, please stop vilifying those who choose not to wear helmets. It’s their choice and they’re really not doing anything wrong.
No problem with not wearing a
No problem with not wearing a helmet. I’m all for choice. What I don’t accept is the twaddle that they never make any difference when in certain circumstances they do.
As for wearing them in a car or on foot? Red herring time wasting nonsense. Grow up.
MercuryOne wrote:
As for
Why?
vbvb wrote:MercuryOne
Indeed. if we want to reduce serious head injuries we should talk about fitting helmets to the people most likely to receive one, and that’s people inside cars.
So why would we say that was a waste of time? Well the obvious reason being, it’s never going to happen. We’re never going to make car occupants wear helmets because then travel by car might be perceived as dangerous or something we should stop doing and we can’t have that. Every argument we apply to cycling (which is an intrinsically safe activity) for safety equipment, we can easily apply to driving but the resistance to those suggestions is immense. Even on a cycling forum presumably occupied by cycling aficionados, the resistance is high.
What is really pointless is listening to neurosurgeons talk about helmets. They’re not helmet experts, they only get to see people who’ve been in certain types of accidents, they don’t see dead people or people who just get back up and carry on. They see a tiny fraction of people who bang their heads and see an even tinier fraction of people who happily cycle about the place completely free of injury and harm.
That’s red herring, time wasting nonsense.
MercuryOne wrote:No problem
Someone who thinks throwing insults will do as a substitute for a rational argument, tells _others_ to grow up?
MartinH wrote:… nobody –
+1000
MercuryOne wrote:At last.
First off, I usually take references to ‘common sense’ as meaning ‘what I am about to say will consist entirely of unsubstantiated assertions and will be a waste of your time’. That term really needs to die a death.
And who thinks ‘helmets can’t make a difference under any circumstances’? That’s a classic straw-man, no?
All sorts of things might make a difference under all sorts of circumstances, that’s completely besides the point, or you’d wear a helmet for getting out of the bath and stab-proof vest when going for a walk round London.
Anyway, neither this guy nor the previous anti-helmet one are authorities on the topic of road safety and public health in general, regardless of how many bad brains they’ve looked at. Its odd the way professionals get treated as experts on things that are only tangentially related to their day job.
(Not to say they shouldn’t express a view or construct an argument, just that the media and people in general seem to attach peculiar levels of significance to them just ‘cos they have something to do with brains)
doctors only push stuff the
doctors only push stuff the manufacturers pay them too so wouldn’t take this Carter fellow to seriously if I were you however given the abuse the NHS metes out to its patients wearing a helmet during a hospital stay might well reduce injuries. Take your camelbak in too so you don’t need to drink the flower water out of the vase
The pros wear helmets. Your
The pros wear helmets. Your argument is invalid.
J90 wrote:The pros wear
As do professional racing drivers, so do you wear a helmet in your car?
J90 wrote:The pros wear
The pros are going really fast and pushing the boundaries because they’re racing. I wear a helmet when I’m racing or training, because it’s a risky activity. I’ve crashed when racing, or training for racing, many times.
Riding on the road is a different matter. I wear a helmet sometimes, sometimes not.
J90 wrote:The pros wear
The pros wear what the sponsors tell them to wear. There’s a lot og money in selling helmets.
the neurosurgeon merely “believes” that some head injuries could be avoided by children wearing helmets. Well children wearing them is probably reasonable. When the speed is very low and the children are very small and the head injuries are them falling off and banging their own heads on something then a cycle helmet is useful.
Helmets are rated for 50 joules of impact resistance. So lets say an average 6 year old weighing 20kg has a bash at 7mph (v =~3m/s). we use the good old energy impact formula you learned at school E = M x V(2) / 2
Half mass x velocity squared. Mass is 20 Velocity is 3. So it’s 20 x 9 = 180 /2 = 90.
So that will have an effect the helmet will absorb about half the impact of a 6 year old falling off a bike at 7 mph.
The trouble emerges when you increase the speed and the mass. Then they don’t get anywhere near protecting you from the forces involved.
So yeah ok kids on bikes might get some use from a helmet in a low speed impact.
Adult cyclists in any kind of impact with a car get such a tiny amount of protection as to be pointless.
Smart car with no passengers hits you at 20mph then the same calculation is
800Kg x 9 m/s squared over 2. =32400 joules. Your helmet is good for the first 50. That’s if it’s low speed and doesn’t actually crack.
Rabbits feet work almost as well as do St Christopher’s medals and a double splash of holy water.
I am sure that the
I am sure that the neurosurgen also took into account that the children would have been less likely to be involved in an accident if they weren’t wearing a helmet, oh wait. Probably not.
Once again, let us ignore the facts and stick to anecdotes, after all they make much better sound bites.
From NHS statistics the vast
From NHS statistics the vast majority of head injuries occur as a result of either falling over, assault, or being in a motor vehicle crash.
Also most child head injuries occur in the home, or in playgrounds.
About two thirds of adult head injuries involve alcohol.
The reality is that head injuries from cycling are a tiny fraction of what the NHS deals with.
However the medical profession continually bleats on about cycling helmets but never ever mentions head protection for going to the pub, walking down stairs, travelling in a motor vehicle, playing in a playground, etc.
I never quite understand the obsession with cycling helmets, if the medical profession wanted to reduce the incidence of head injuries in the general population then there are far better ways of achieving this.
When talking about helmets for cyclists, then you should also include helmets for pedestrians as well. No difference.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/23/duchess-cornwall-brother-mark-shand-dies-fall-new-york
There’s something askew in
There’s something askew in the arguments for and against helmets. For several years I rode motorcycles and no-one would argue against wearing helmets (although once upon a time some did). Bikers were very careful with their helmets, choosing bright colours (almost never black), testing standards in excess of the minimum and (increasingly) full-face. They never put stickers on them, as the glue risks weakening the structure. In cycling, the argument against seems to be they are flimsy and give a false impression of providing better protection than they do. If so, the response to this shouldn’t be not to wear helmets, but to improve the ones that are worn. With so much investment going into advances in cycle technology it’s a scandal that the industry continue to market helmets against a EU testing standard that is not fit for purpose (i.e. protects against impacts from a stationary fall rather than impacts at average cycling speeds). Volvo were a company that made their reputation from taking a different view of safety that the rest of the car industry. I wish one of the helmet manufacturers would do the same for cycling helmets, and I’m sure they would find that actually a lot of people care more about their chances of reducing injury than the merits of a argument against wearing protective headgear based on an inadequate safety standard used as a means to market high-margin low-efficacy wearable products.
Pro’s wear helmets for the
Pro’s wear helmets for the same reason I do. That they are mandatory for competition therefore you have to wear them, this extends to training, as you need to be conditioned to using it.
My kids wear them because I believe they do work at the low speeds and with less distance to fall.
The medical advice, like all medical advice, changes constantly.
I walked into a kitchen
I walked into a kitchen cupboard door a couple of weeks ago. I think that wearing a helmet would have saved my life.
Wearing helmets in the kitchen should be compulsory.
This guy isn’t talking about
This guy isn’t talking about compulsion, he’s talking about his experience and belief based on his expertise of head injury.
You’ll never get the statistics to give a definitive answer on this, simply because you can’t compare what would have happened to an injured child if the same accident occurred with/ without a helmet.
The experience and professional opinion of this guy is useful, and can’t be rubbished by quoting from google, as people are trying to do here.
As for arguments trying to rubbish ‘common sense’, well you would think people would understand that helmets offer some physical protection, however small, regardless of views on all the external factors, but certain people on here will argue white is black, so may as well save your breath.
All arguments about helmets
All arguments about helmets should include the simple question : what do the Dutch do?
They manage to do 10 times the cycling mileage we do without wearing helmets and without suffering carnage.
It’s pretty simple. People don’t just fall off their bikes and die. It’s incredibly rare for someone to suffer a fatal injury from a cycling (but not a motoring) related injury. It takes a serious impact. One incurred by a motor vehicle.
Ignore pro cyclists. Again, they weren’t dying in their droves when they didn’t wear helmets. Paris-Roubaix helmet-less was not some sort of Russian roulette. It’s a massive, helmet manufacturer-led con.
Pro cyclists are far, far
Pro cyclists are far, far more likely to be injured per hour riding than typical commuter cyclists. I used to think that this was DESPITE them wearing the latest helmets, having the best maintained bikes, information through race radio of hazards ahead, a vested interest in not crashing, high quality bike handling skills and superb back up medical care immediately available. I now think that one of the reasons for their very high rate is BECAUSE of wearing the latest helmets, having the best maintained bikes etc. Has helmet wearing resulted in reduced chances of serious injury (or even death) amongst racing cyclists?
So don’t forget risk compensation/ behavioural adaptation – I talk about as a reason for the negative effects of increased levels of helmet wearing following compulsory helmet wearing here: http://rdrf.org.uk/2013/12/27/the-effects-of-new-zealands-cycle-helmet-law-the-evidence-and-what-it-means/
I wonder how many children he
I wonder how many children he sees a month with head injuries from falling over whilst playing or whilst in cars?
Also basing your sample on the injured people who come though the door of your ED means it’s already flawed.
How many children ride bikes in his area?
How many suffer other injuries?
Do we know how the incidents occurred and who was at fault?
Safer streets would be a better call than helmets
I keep seeing the phrase ‘i
I keep seeing the phrase ‘i believe……’ both from this Michael Carter fella and from the “Ive got this mate who fell off …..”crowd
Its fair enough the helmet nazis justifying their delusional reliance on a bit of plastic and preface their anecdotes using the the phrase but when a man of science uses it they immediately undermine their own argument.
I believe in unicorns but it doesnt make them real.
When someone starts their sentence with “I *know* for sure after extensive and definitive research that helmets are effective….” then i may start to listen.
Do helmets cause more
Do helmets cause more injuries than they prevent? That’s the only question worth asking. From that, a rational decision can be made wether or not an individual wishes to wear a helmet.
All that other crap being argued above is the dumb part of the brain trying to justify crappy decision making. It’s the same kind of stupidity in action when you see people using their mobiles whilst driving or not wearing their seat-belts. Which is fine, but FFS, just admit your dumb brains aren’t working and stop trying to pretend there’s some kind of rational thought behind it.
LinusLarrabee wrote:Do
Helmet-specific advice or true also of ski goggles for head-on bee impacts?
LinusLarrabee wrote:Do
Simples, yes.
New Zealand, introduced a mandatory cycle helmet law. In ’94 there were just under 500 KSI per 100,000 cyclists. In ’11 this had almost doubled to just under 900 KSI per 100,000 cyclists. The worst part is cycling dropped from just over 250,000 to 130,000.
http://rdrf.org.uk/2013/12/17/the-effects-of-new-zealands-cycle-helmet-law/
LinusLarrabee wrote:Do
When riding a bike or just in general?
LinusLarrabee wrote:Do
Really? If that’s the criteria you’ll support wearing helmets, toesavers, safety googles, kevlar vests, fireproof clothing, etc ALL THE TIME. Best be safe.
I’ve not read all the
I’ve not read all the comments, so it’s possible that this point has already been said.
I think what the neurosurgeon from St George’s was saying has been taken out of context slightly. I believe what he said is that the helmets currently on sale are a waste of time wearing, as they offer little protection. £9.99 from Argos isn’t worth the money. How many helmets on sale have a BS Kitemark, or whatever it is these days?
4ChordsNoNet wrote:How many
from the CTC website
http://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/regulations/standards
‘Helmet Standards
Helmets for cycling are one thing where Trading Standards Officers have been keen to root out any dubious products, even though there is no law specifically prohibiting the sale of helmets that don’t conform to any standard. So you can be sure that any cycling helmet in the shops will at least claim to meet a reputable standard, probably BSEN1078. The “EN” bit signifies a European standard (or “Norm”) adopted by BS. But if you can find any helmets with a Snell Foundation B90 (or higher) sticker in them, that’s a substantially stronger standard.’
I’ve never seen a helmet without the EN marking (the kit was used for British Standards which have been superseded).
4ChordsNoNet wrote:I’ve not
I’m pretty sure all of them meet the EU standards or they wouldn’t be allowed to sell them. Not sure about small ebay sellers, say, but I think its a safe bet someone like Argos would have to obey the law.
Anyway, one major purpose of wearing a helmet is to avoid nagging by helmet-fixated people, and even the cheapest, most dubious, helmet can achieve that.
I would suggest that Michael
I would suggest that Michael Carter gets in touch with Dr Ian Roberts, who used to work in paediatrics A&E and was also of the opinion that all cyclists should wear helmets until he began his research with the CRASH trials.
He documents it all in his book ’The Energy Glut' and actually argues that we should be fighting against overuse of vehicles, cutting back on road building as the case for them increasing economic growth is not supported and redesign cities for people before we’re all too obese and riddled with related illnesses to move/breathe.
zanf wrote:The Energy Glut’
Is this because not doing some exercise causes obesity?
leqin wrote:Is this because
If you really want to reduce it to such a smartarsed comment, then yes.
zanf wrote:leqin wrote:Is
I was not being smartarsed and I am deeply offended that you should assume that I was being so, but not suprised – this is road.cc – it is overflowing with people who are
So I will now switch on my smartarse circuit and ask you another question and you can give me your smartarsed answer.
According to the BBC website last week, although it was it was reported elsewhere, scientific investigation seems to be showing with a great deal of correlation that our modern day exposure to artificial light is a major factor in humanity’s tendency to become fat and obese and that this, along with other factors, is why we are seeing a ever growing obesity epidemic – based on that would you propose that we should design our homes and citys so that we give up artificial light, which would have to include street lighting, headlamps, that multi megaton Cree LED mountain bike light you just armed your cheap MTB with – your smartphone – your TV – the screen your looking into at this moment… so, at a even more fundamental level and staying right within the bounds of science, we would have to give up things which produce electromagnetic radiation and, naming just one thing – just one thing – that causes you and me and indeed everybody here on road.cc to produce electromagnetic radiation then are you prepared to give up riding your bike so that you cannot become a lard arse.
smartarse mode switched off
‘I keep seeing the phrase ‘i
‘I keep seeing the phrase ‘i believe……’ both from this Michael Carter fella and from the “Ive got this mate who fell off …..”crowd
Its fair enough the helmet nazis justifying their delusional reliance on a bit of plastic and preface their anecdotes using the the phrase but when a man of science uses it they immediately undermine their own argumen’
Absolutely the opposite.
A man of science knows that using the phrase ‘I believe…’ is the ONLY and correct way to talk about this kind of thing.
It is his opinion, and only that. He is not claiming something as fact from anecdotal evidence and that is good science.
Absolutely right. (but bonkers to believe that).
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1081.html
thought I would throw this in,
mrmo
..and this a bit further down…
End of the first paragraph is telling IMO… but anyway, as you told me, we shouldn’t be talking about “F**** helmets”.
fukawitribe wrote:
End of the
Exactly, which is better being hit by a car not wearing a helmet, being hit by a car wearing a helmet, or not being hit by a car.
Which problem would you put the effort into solving?
Helmets are just a distraction, sometimes they help, sometimes they don’t. What the helmet debate does achieve is to allow the elephants to have a rave in the room.
I just love reading all the
I just love reading all the comments regarding helmets both for and against because there are some real plonkers.
When this govt or the next make helmets compulsory, because it will happen, due to financial reward by way of a ticket then it will be a nightmare to control / regulate in some areas.
However in a much earlier post about helmets i produced a set of results about helmet use in the area where i live and work. If my memory serves me correctly it was well into the 90% bracket that wear a helmet whilst on road bikes but the usage by mtb users was much much lower.
Obviously the road cyclists in the North East have a lot more sense than other areas 😉
I feel quite strongly about
I feel quite strongly about this subject after witnessing a friend of mine have a fall from her road bike on a corner, which didn’t involve a car. She knocked herself unconscious and cracked her helmet in the process – the crack in her helmet would have been a crack in her skull had she not been wearing it. I just don’t get why people are so arrogant to think it won’t happen to them. It’s just not worth it. You are not invincible. (I wrote a post on this over on my blog and was surprised to hear via twitter how many people are so against helmets…mainly mountain bikers, I might add). I value my brain and think it’s worth protecting.
Ordinary Cycling Girl wrote:I
Well said. Completely agree – the same happened to me, my life was saved by the presence of a helmet and since I’ve been a firm advocate!!
I’d say for adults to choose not to, fine, risky prerogative, but I’m of the opinion that regardless of those choices, young people should all be taught to wear them. I’m not sure I like the fact that role models come out with statements against their use.
mooleur wrote:Ordinary
But would you agree that young people should also be taught not to use cars unless absolutely unavoidable?
The choice to drive a car creates far, far more danger of adverse health consequences than the choice to cycle without a helmet (for the former, 5,000 premature deaths a year due to pollution alone).
I have a feeling you might “shoot my fox” by the clever trick of just agreeing – but why the greater emphasis on the helmets rather than the cars?
I don’t understand, in general, why some adverse health effects are mostly ignored while people bang on about others.
FluffyKittenofTindalos
But would you agree that young people should also be taught not to use cars unless absolutely unavoidable?
The choice to drive a car creates far, far more danger of adverse health consequences than the choice to cycle without a helmet (for the former, 5,000 premature deaths a year due to pollution alone).
I have a feeling you might “shoot my fox” by the clever trick of just agreeing – but why the greater emphasis on the helmets rather than the cars?
I don’t understand, in general, why some adverse health effects are mostly ignored while people bang on about others.— Ordinary Cycling Girl
I’m sure you understand really. We have constructed a society in which people believe that they MUST drive a car, and so are compelled to downplay the risks associated with this potentially lethal act in order to the pain that would result from recognising the truth.
FluffyKittenofTindalos
I absolutely think young people should be taught the dangers of cars, and motorbikes, just as they should be about the use of any other vehicle. But my point is 8 year olds aren’t given licenses to motor vehicles, they’re given their cycling proficiency – at this age why shouldn’t we begin teaching young people about the dangers (overall) of the road? Encouraging helmet use at this point in their lives gives them a firm glimpse into road safety of all aspects.
This is a conversation about helmets so that’s where my emphasis stems from here – my opinions on cars and young people (if you know anyone from the Isle of Man, they’ll probably have similar opinions to me…) are for a whole other conversation/day/year ;P
For the record I don’t drive. I’ve been hit by too many cars to be arsed about using one for getting around. I do, however, enjoy motorsports – so I’m not going to bang on about anything hypocritical on being anti emissions etc etc etc. People breathe in fumes, people get hit by cars, people ride their bikes into walls….some people drive their cars into walls, the list goes on – educating new cyclists/drivers/racers on the dangers and risks available to them is key, the choices they then make as adults is absolutely their own decision – if they choose to wear a helmet, great, if they choose to drive safely, even better.
I’m not a vehement “EVERYONE WHO ISN’T WEARING A HELMET IS SATAN” type, I’m also not fussed about other people’s choices, I do firmly believe setting a safe example to young cyclists is a good idea, though.
mooleur wrote:Well said.
Prove the helmet saved your life? It MAY have done, it may have reduced the injury, it may have saved you getting a graze.
You can’t know that in your crash your helmet was effective.
there is also the pro helmet question of which standard, why are helmets being sold today LESS effective than those being sold 20years ago. When I started mtbing, everything was buy Snell, it was the best standard, today, apart from Specialized?, you won’t find a snell helmet and the current EN-BS standard is far less demanding.
mrmo wrote:mooleur wrote:Well
The paramedics stated the impact on the helmet saved me from life threatening injuries which would have a strong likelihood of either ending or dramatically changing my life. TBF I took that as gospel, I ain’t no Dr but that squishy bit at the back of my head that the helmet just about protected is pretty much the most vulnerable bit, I’m damn glad I was wearing one and this isn’t a “pro helmet argument” here this is simply me stating the fact that I would never have liked to have known the outcome, be it negative or not, of that crash had I not been wearing one.
mooleur wrote:mrmo
The paramedics stated the impact on the helmet saved me from life threatening injuries which would have a strong likelihood of either ending or dramatically changing my life. TBF I took that as gospel, I ain’t no Dr but that squishy bit at the back of my head that the helmet just about protected is pretty much the most vulnerable bit, I’m damn glad I was wearing one and this isn’t a “pro helmet argument” here this is simply me stating the fact that I would never have liked to have known the outcome, be it negative or not, of that crash had I not been wearing one.— mooleur
Well my nephew is a paramedic and a lovely lad. But there’s nothing in the fact that he is a paramedic that gives him any more insight on the effectiveness of styrofoam to aborb impact or otherwise that the average man on the Clapham omnibus has. If he had the facts about what helmets are designed to do and how they work then your informed paramedic would probably be shocked about how very small the impact protection from a cycle helmet actually is. Many people are operating on the assumption that a cycle helmet is maybe a not very good motorcycle helmet in its efficacy. That’s wrong by any standard of measurement.
The laws of physics, cycle helmet design, the impact absorbtion capacity of styrofoam are not a matter of opinion. Helmets are rated for 50 Joules. and that’s it. I am 70Kg. so if you reverse the formula to give you the speed that the 50 joules of impact absorbtion will protect me at is 3mph
ie 50 = half of 70 x Vsquared. The answer is that V is ~ 1.18m/s.
1.18m/s = ~ 2.7mph.
People really do need to know just how little protection cycle helmets actually offer. And it’s easy. Do the maths.
I am pro choice by the way. Choose to wear a helmet if you want. But don’t do it because you “believe” that it offers much if any protection in a big impact.
And yes I have heard the would you like to be hit by a car wearing your helmet or not wearing your helmet, as if that is a clinching argumant. Something is better than nothing right? But that just indicates the scale of misunderstanding. It’s a a bit like saying would you like to be shot wearing your T shirt or bare chested.
Make your choice but the outcome is the same except the T shirt gets ruined.
oozaveared wrote:If he had
You’re right, they’re not brilliant at impact protection, no – although your maths is a little simplistic (instant deceleration at full load, e.g. landing vertically and rigidly on your head). That said, much of the reason I generally wear a helmet is to avoid small to mid-range bangs, cracks, bumps and lacerations – like when I dragged and bounced my head, arm, hip and ankle during a 20mph off on a roundabout – which they can seemingly help with quite well in my experience. I might be alone in that regard mind, difficult to say.
oozaveared wrote:
Well my
It split, rather than absorb and compress, which is what led our ambulance conversation to believe that this crack would have been the impact of hitting something sharp (we think probably the pavement corner). Said informed paramedic was certainly right that the split in the shell meant that the helmet, while not doing it’s designed job of compressing, was doing a worthwhile job in being there before my head. I’m definitely not denying the science of how road helmets are designed to work essentially renders them pretty poorly equipped for most scenarios, but in some cases – even if they’re rare – helmets can prove to be useful.
Might also be worth noting that while the equation relates to immediate impact, if we were to hit a car travelling at one speed while travelling at another, dependent on weight and environmental variables this would mean the possible final impact of the helmet/head would be reduced to, perhaps, an insignificant enough speed that would make its use viable.
Long and short – cyclist hits front of car, cyclist tumbles around 4-5 times before hitting road, tumbles again possibly 2-3 times before head reaches final impact… despite the reduced speed actually not causing too much damage, with there being important softer areas around the skull, the helmet could play a pretty significant role in protecting those. Then again, it might even do the opposite. 🙂
My choice is the fact that I want to avoid the risk of one of those few occurrences, even if it’s 1000 to 1. I’ve done the maths and despite the rare probability in my opinion I’d like to make every precaution I can to preserve my own life.
I’m rambling now!
Ordinary Cycling Girl wrote:I
Your mate binned it so that means everyone else must be arrogant?
Perhaps not the best way of making friends and influencing people don’t you think?
Ordinary Cycling Girl wrote:I
Maybe it would have been a crack in her skull, maybe it wouldn’t. maybe without the helmet she wouldn’t have lobbed the bike, or would have fallen better and not hit her head. The fact is that I don’t know and neither do you. You want to wear a helmet while cycling that’s fine, good for you. I can’t understand why you wouldn’t be equally keen on wearing one while walking, driving a car, standing in the shower, …
But no-one has to be rational all the time. The real issue is not whether you want to wear a helmet, the real issue is whether you have so mistaken the risks associated with different behaviours that you want to devote time and effort to compelling me to wear a helmet, instead of focussing time and effort on removing motorised traffic from our roads and providing safer options for cyclists and pedestrians
oldstrath wrote:…You want
My car has a lot of airbags which should help protect my head in case of impact. Opportunities for my head to hit the kerb/road at 30-40mph seem fairly low while walking or showering. Am I doing it wrong? :/
factor41 wrote:oldstrath
=P~
Don’t need to hit your head at 30 mph. Doubt the children Mr Carter saw had been doing 30 mph, and there’s little evidence a helmet would protect you if you were travelling at that speed when you landed. Go and ask your local neurosurgeon where most of his cases get injured – slipping in the shower will be high up there.
Ordinary Cycling Girl wrote:I
NO NO NO NO NO. This is nonsense on stilts. It completely misunderstands how a helmet is supposed to work. If the helmet cracks it is because it didn’t work. It was overwhelmed by the impact.
The way a helmet is designed to work is for the styrofoam to absorb the impact by compressing. It only works at between 50 to 100 Joules. The BS EC and US standard is 50 joules some of the better helmets brand new and perfectly worn may give up to 100 joules of impact protection.
If the impact is of such a force that the styrofoam is unable to contract quickly enough then it cracks, splits right open. In so doing it fails to absorb the impact.
Your friend was not saved by a helmet. Her head received exactly the same impact as it would had she not been wearing a helmet. She was concussed despite wearing a helmet because the helmet failed completely. It provided no protection at all and transferred the impact energy straight to the skull. It failed completely because it wasn’t designed to absorb that kind of impact. It is generally the speed of impact that causes the split. Lower velocity higher mass impacts of the same overall force don’t cause failure so often.
This velocity effect is the same effect as people that break bricks with a Karate chop. The effect is a shockwave through the material. You could send more force but more slowly ie increase the mass and reduce the velocity in the equation and the brick would not break.
Helmets do not fail and save your skull. They just fail and in failing don’t absorb any impact energy, they just transfer it.
After reading numerous
After reading numerous articles about this debate, two things stand out to me:
1. No incontravertible evidence exists that helmets save lives.
2. No incontravertible evidence exists that helmets do not save lives.
Any judgement formed on this basis is therefore a personal opinion. That your opinion and mine might be different, does not mean you are right and I am wrong.
I’ve said it before and I
I’ve said it before and I will say it again; I firmly believe in helmets. I speak from experience as I have had two significant accidents which would have been far worse if I had not been wearing one.
I don’t need convincing of the arguments either way, I don’t go out without one, not even round the corner……
OK, how about we have a
OK, how about we have a little straw poll? I reckon you can divide opinions down into four positions here. Just post which one you fall into:
1 – Pro compulsion: helmet use should be a legal requirement, you shouldn’t be allowed on a bike without one.
2 – Pro choice, pro helmet: helmet use should remain a personal choice as it is now, and I usually or always choose to wear a helmet.
3 – Pro choice, anti helmet: helmet use should remain a personal choice as it is now, and I usually or always choose not to wear a helmet.
4 – Pro helmet ban: helmet use should banned. No one should be allowed to wear a helmet when riding a bike.
My guess is that category 2 will be bigger than category 3, but I’m not sure by how much. I’m also willing to bet that practically nobody will fall into category 4. But what I’m intrigued about is how many people, here on a cycling website, would class themselves as category 1.
I’m 2 – Pro choice, pro helmet.
MartinH wrote:OK, how about
2.5 – pro choice, wear a helmet if I’m on a club run or technical offroad
MartinH wrote:OK, how about
2.5 pro choice, anti helmet but mostly wear one anyway out of superstition and a desire to minimise nagging/victim-blaming. This might constitute hypocrisy, not sure.
MartinH wrote:OK, how about
2. Pro-choice, usually helmet.
MartinH wrote:OK, how about
2 and a half – I wear a helmet when I’m racing or training, but very rarely for commuting
MartinH wrote:OK, how about
Well, thanks for taking part 😉 I know it’s hardly a scientific sample, but it’s interesting that everyone who answered said they were a 2-2.5 (if we’re going to decimal places, then I guess I’m about a 2.3). Which makes me feel a little better – maybe the cycling community isn’t as bitterly divided over this it sometimes appears. But doesn’t it make you wonder how we manage to disagree so violently over something that, on the face of it, we largely agree on…
MartinH wrote:MartinH
Well, thanks for taking part 😉 I know it’s hardly a scientific sample, but it’s interesting that everyone who answered said they were a 2-2.5 (if we’re going to decimal places, then I guess I’m about a 2.3). Which makes me feel a little better – maybe the cycling community isn’t as bitterly divided over this it sometimes appears. But doesn’t it make you wonder how we manage to disagree so violently over something that, on the face of it, we largely agree on…— MartinH
A lot of people said they were helmets for racing, myself included. That’s where the danger lies because racing inherently takes the bicycle to the limits of adhesion and sometimes beyond, resulting in an off. Riding on the road is a lot less dangerous and all the crash data available points to this. Bear in mind also that the full face MX lid I wear for racing (it’s a road legal motorcycle helmet) is rather more protective than any standard bicycle helmet. I’ve also got a skate lid I wear when I’m riding my BMX at the skatepark and again, it’s a lot more protective than any shell helmet.
I strongly oppose compulsion for helmet use for normal road cycling because all the statistics say this won’t help tackle safety for cyclists and that the real improvement will come from addressing motor vehicle driver behaviour.
Well even if the impact
Well even if the impact energy is not absorbed, surely the styrofoam distributes the force over a greater area of skull compared to bashing your head directly on concrete.
chokofingrz wrote:Well even
Though presumably regardless of how concentrated or distributed the impact on your skull is, your brain will still bounce around inside it in the same way? And isn’t that what causes the worst damage?
Am not sure at all about the medical/mechanical, as opposed to sociological/moral, side of it.
Where’s a brain surgeon when you need one? 🙂
FluffyKittenofTindalos
Most of what you want the helmet to do is slow the deceleration rate down, which will hopefully reduce the injury your brain receives when it smashes into (nearly) your skull. That can happen even if the helmet splits, see here for some more details and better explanations than i’ll manage
http://www.helmets.org/liners.htm
chokofingrz wrote:Well even
Yes its can spread the force, dependent on design, and the argument about not absorbing the impact is not strictly correct – there is energy absorbed my the compression prior to the split, and the split itself takes energy out of the system. The degree to which energy is taken from the impact will be effected by a number of factors, including the split, but to say it’s the same as not having the foam in the way is nonsense (even ignoring lacerations). The helmet may have contributed to potential rotational injuries however, another something which is not part of the statistics i’ve seen so far.
fukawitribe wrote:chokofingrz
Myth 33: The weight of bicycle helmet can increase the severity of rotational injuries in a crash.
Fact 33: A bicycle helmet weighs very little. It’s not like wearing a heavy motorcycle helmet. There has never been any evidence of increased rotational injuries caused by a bicycle helmet.
From the website link I posted ealier
Wesselwookie
Myth 33: The weight of bicycle helmet can increase the severity of rotational injuries in a crash.
Fact 33: A bicycle helmet weighs very little. It’s not like wearing a heavy motorcycle helmet. There has never been any evidence of increased rotational injuries caused by a bicycle helmet.
From the website link I posted ealier— chokofingrz
It’s not the weight i’m thinking of, see my post just above this.
Wesselwookie wrote:Myth 33:
The argument is not so much that the weight can increase the severity of rotational injuries, it’s that:
1. The helmet increases the size of your head. So there is a bigger chance of hitting the road with your (helmeted) head in such a way that your head rotates quickly.
2. Cycling helmets tend to grip the road, increasing rotational forces (see this study: http://www.bhsi.org/chinstrp.pdf ). Your skull is covered by fairly flexible skin (you can move it over your skull with your hand). This means that you are more likely to slide your unhelmeted head, rather than have it grab the road, while the rest of your body turns around it. There is a motorcycle helmet manufacturer trying to combat this by making helmets with a skin-like layer on it: http://www.phillipshelmets.com/
Because your website chooses to argue a straw man, rather than argue in good faith, it’s not a good source of information.
Aapje wrote:Wesselwookie
The argument is not so much that the weight can increase the severity of rotational injuries, it’s that:
1. The helmet increases the size of your head. So there is a bigger chance of hitting the road with your (helmeted) head in such a way that your head rotates quickly.
2. Cycling helmets tend to grip the road, increasing rotational forces (see this study: http://www.bhsi.org/chinstrp.pdf ). Your skull is covered by fairly flexible skin (you can move it over your skull with your hand). This means that you are more likely to slide your unhelmeted head, rather than have it grab the road, while the rest of your body turns around it. There is a motorcycle helmet manufacturer trying to combat this by making helmets with a skin-like layer on it: http://www.phillipshelmets.com/
Because your website chooses to argue a straw man, rather than argue in good faith, it’s not a good source of information.— Wesselwookie
Then I would suggest you contact the website and ague with him. Most of the arguments against the use of cycle helmets also fall into the straw man category. And if rotational forces are a factor then this would show itself in the pro peloton. I am not aware of a single incidence of this within cycle racing however I am willing to be proved wrong.
Wesselwookie wrote:Then I
You need to man up and own the stuff you post. Posting stuff and then saying that you don’t stand behind it is trolling-like behavior.
I’m not against the use of helmets, but rather against the silly arguments used by helmet-advocates. In my opinion/experience, the people who really believe in helmets (despite the lack of convincing evidence) tend to be the most illogical. Saying that people are against the use of helmets when they also want to look at the downsides of helmets is a good example.
The reporting of cycling accidents doesn’t go into that level of detail. Or can you tell me which injuries of Weylandt were translational and which were rotational? Regardless, the number of fatal racing accidents is pretty low, not high enough for statistics. Especially since we are really talking about edge cases, where a helmet has a chance to save a life.
fukawitribe wrote:chokofingrz
I hear rotational injuries cited frequently, but have never read about an instance of one. Surely if they are so prevalent, professional cyclists would be getting them all the time? Mark Cavendish seems to hit the deck regularly, but never seems to be suffering a ‘rotational injury’ afterwards.
JeevesBath wrote:I hear
‘Stiff neck’ might get some more hits. It’s one of those things i’ve heard discussed and which, on the surface, make sense – e.g. the helmet is wider than your head, so if something slows it down relative to the direction of travel of your head then it would exert more force than the same slowing down at the surface of your skull; helmets have loops and holes which can catch things and cause twisting and so on.
What i’ve not seen yet, but i’m still looking for, is any good data about whether this actually happen.. so i’m not fully swayed one way or another even though it might make ‘sense’ on the surface. If anyone *does* have any links, i’d be very interested in seeing them tah.
2 – pro choice pro helmet.
2 – pro choice pro helmet.
2.5 – on the fence, just wear
2.5 – on the fence, just wear one for “proper” rides, not town trips.
I’m in the 2 Camp
Myths and
I’m in the 2 Camp
Myths and facts cycle helmet website:
https://sites.google.com/site/bicyclehelmetmythsandfacts/
2 – Pro choice, pro
2 – Pro choice, pro helmet
Like others all I can talk about is personal experience (I’m not a professor!) I’ve been riding bikes and commuting to work in London for 25 years. In that time I’ve had quite a few scrapes and been knocked off my bike a couple of times; a few years back I came off my bike on black ice and literally did a complete 180 and smashed my head shoulder and arm on the tarmac, it caused a sizable dent in my helmet and I’m pretty sure if I hadn’t been wearing it that dent would have been in the side of my skull. Oh before one of you professors tells me ‘NO NO NO your helmet didn’t absorb the impact and I have a graph to demonstrate the fact’, it did, I was there and I felt the force as I hit the ground (btw my unprotected shoulder and elbow didn’t fare so well, they were heavily bruised and hurt for work weeks after, unlike my head). I’m all for wearing helmets and certainly wouldn’t try and persuade someone not to (although if you don’t feel the need then good luck to you) as for this argument about drivers give less space to cyclists wearing helmets; seems like a bit of a red herring if you ask me, the driver that sees you isn’t the one you need to worry about!
rich_b wrote:as for this
Correct it is:
Myth 10: Helmet wearing causes more car/bicycle accidents
Fact 10: One person in the U.K. measured the distance vehicles gave him when he was wearing a helmet versus not wearing a helmet and proclaimed that he got 3.5” more space when he was un-helmeted. Of course no cars hit him in either case. This is another “study” that has taken on a life of its own and that is constantly taken out of context by those opposed to helmet use.
Wesselwookie wrote:rich_b
See, this is the sort of thing that makes me suspicious of the pro-helmet contingent. Its the unnecessarily loaded way they make their case.
Note the use of the disparaging ‘proclaimed’ rather than ‘reported’. That’s quite obviously highly loaded language. Note also the use of ‘person’ and careful elision of the fact the ‘person’ was an academic and the study was published in a peer-reviewed journal.
This was not ‘one person’ ‘proclaiming’ something, this was one paper appearing in a journal, reporting the results of a study.
Now I absolutely accept that is far from conclusive evidence – one single paper does not constitute an established ‘fact’ (not usually, anyway). Science doesn’t really work that way. I’d want to see repeated by others before accepting it as necessarily a real effect.
But why try and minimise it even further than that with the borderline-insulting language?
And the argument that it only matters if they hit you doesn’t do it for me- if they’d hit the guy he wouldn’t have finished the study at all, so any such study that gets published is going to be biased towards the not-being killed case.
And forgive me if I find close passes objectionable even when they graciously fail to hit me. Its not just the drivers who don’t see you who can be a danger, there’s the one who sees you but passes close anyway just as you hit a pothole.
What such close passes do is make cycling less attractive to people, which in turn adversely affects health in any number of other, non-impact-related, ways.
rich_b wrote:2 – Pro choice,
if your helmet didn’t split or break and has a dent in it then it worked. ipso facto the impact was ~ 30 – 100 joules depending on whether it was an old cheap helmet badly worn, or a top notch helmet straight out of the box and perfectly fitted.
It did protect you from a minor impact, and the “off” that you described is roughly what it was designed to mitigate. ie your own body weight (low mass) at reletively low speed (low velocity).
The issue is not that they don’t protect you against anything, it’s that they don’t protect you against the things that most people think they do or to the level that they think they do.
Some confusion comes from cycle racing. I raced many a season and cycle helmets protect most racers from most the sort of offs and impacts that they might have from a bike race though not by any means all. Most of the offs I have ever seen or had have resulted in the rider sliding along the road or track. The main impact has been, as in your case, a shoulder more usually a knee, thigh or hip. (ie very few are head first) The last thing to hit the deck is the side of the head. By the time that it does most of the impact energy is gone. But they’ll stop you getting a head wound or a maybe a pedal in the head. Now if you are racing that sort of thing can happen quite often. It’s sensible to do somtheing to mitigate it.
If you are talking about the real dangers to cyclists on the road it doesn’t come from regular sliding offs. If you are off and sliding the big danger is anycase any following vehicles or road furniture. The main danger is an impact with a vehicle. In that case even a small vehicle at low speed is generating tens of thousands of joules of impact energy. Your helmet is good for 50 to 100. so utterly useless.
I don’t wear a helmet riding on the road. I do wear one riding MTB on trails where I am more likely to be off and at the low speeds where a helmet might save me a small bump. On the road the chances of being off where a helmet can help are slim to nil. And last winter I was off and sliding twice. No impact to my head whatsoever. So it’s a small chance of being of limited use in an infrequent sort of of specific accident at low impact.
oozaveared wrote:if your
Even if it broke it will have worked to a degree, what that degree is is impossible to say from anecdotal evidence.
I think that’s fair to say in general. As far as the audience on here is concerned, I think that is less of an issue.
It can happen quite a bit when not racing.
Interesting statistic – citation ?
..and I had an off winter before last and another this spring and in both cases had a side head impact. Eventually our anecdotes will become statistically significant, but we’re quite a way off from there currently, aren’t we ?
a falsis principiis proficisci.
fukawitribe wrote:oozaveared
Even if it broke it will have worked to a degree, what that degree is is impossible to say from anecdotal evidence.
I think that’s fair to say in general. As far as the audience on here is concerned, I think that is less of an issue.
It can happen quite a bit when not racing.
Interesting statistic – citation ?
..and I had an off winter before last and another this spring and in both cases had a side head impact. Eventually our anecdotes will become statistically significant, but we’re quite a way off from there currently, aren’t we ?
a falsis principiis proficisci.— oozaveared
Good post. I am probably getting a hard time from some because my proposition is in 3 parts.
Part 1 that for most cyclists (and a lot of people here are the more adventurous or avid cyclists rather than average ones) a helmet offers such little protection that it is hardly worth bothering. The facts is that most people over estimate their efficacy.
Part 2 based on the over estimation of their efficacy a lot of people even cyclists advocate compulsory use. I heard one mouthy chap at the Charlotteville call an old bloke twiddling along on a touring bike a “numpty” for not wearing a helmet. Totally out of order.
Part 3 Compulsory helmet wearing for cyclists is an overreaction to the relative risk and has the effect of making cycling, ordinary everyday cycling, appear to be a dangerous activity requiring special protective gear. This appearance is likely to deter more people from cycling.
I am quite happy to get as detailed on the science as anyone wants regarding rotational forces or oblique impacts or secondary impact mitigation when it comes to the helmet itself. But whatever way you slice it the fact is that most people massively over estimate the protection that is provided and thay also massively overestimate the risk of head injury whilst cycling which runs at about the same as for pedestrians.
I have been cycling properly now for 40 years most of it without a helmet. In my early days racing in the 70s the helmets were simple soft foam in various quality of plastic. I have phots of cyclo cross races in Wessex Region in the mid 70s which show none of the competitors wearing a helmet. I cannot remember a single incident in either Cyclo Cross, Track, or Road racing nor any any club run or anywhere else where a cyclist has suffered a major head wound. It happens sometimes of course.
But my point is that currently damage to helmets is seen as averting serious damage to skulls. The same crashes decades ago didn’t result in serious head injuries.
I am not against helmet use. I am against compulsory helmet use on a false prospectus which overestimates the risk of head injury and and then compounds that by over estimating the efficacy of helmet wearing.
oozaveared wrote:I am not
I’d go along with that.
2.5 *Pro choice*, sometimes
2.5 *Pro choice*, sometimes wear a helmet, sometimes dont.
A helmet will stop your head from being badly scratched or grazed. It will do little to absorb large amounts of energy in a serious collision or fall
oozaveared
Scientific studies
oozaveared
Scientific studies have proved helmet work. Don’t take my word for it read the link I put up ealier.
Myth 11: Helmets are just foam hats and foam isn’t going to protect your head.
Fact 11: EPS (Expanded Polystyrene Foam), the material used in helmets, car bumpers, and packaging materials is designed to absorb impact, which is what it does. Hint: Look at how fragile eggs are packaged in many areas. Any time you see someone using the “foam hat” shtick in an effort to convince someone that helmets don’t work because, you know, they’re just made out of “foam,” it’s an excellent indication that they’re about to lie again. They have utter contempt for the concepts of facts, logic, science, and statistics because in contradicts what they want, but know isn’t, true. There’s an easy way to test their beliefs. Tell them you’re going to throw a ten pound chunk of concrete at their head at 14MPH and ask if they’d like to put on a “foam hat” or not.
If you’re in a vehicle crash and your airbag deploys, and nylon and nitrogen save your life do you claim that it’s “magic nitrogen?” Or magic nylon. How could some gas and nylon possibly protect you? Oh wait, in a 60mph head-on crash, you’d still be dead even with an airbag, so clearly air bags are under-designed for the forces involved and are hence worthless. In fact the mere presence of air bags in cars has reduced the number of cars sold as people give up driving–just look at car sales figures for the last two years.
The “magic foam” and “foam hat” shtick are used by those that either unintentionally uninformed or intentionally dishonest, with the latter being more probable. No doubt they really do understand why EPS foam is used in a plethora of products, including helmets, where the need for impact protection and light weight are key requirements. They’ve lost the argument based on statistical and scientific fact, so being smarmy is their only choice.
Wesselwookie wrote: There’s
Trouble is, the cars that worry me are going at 50mph or higher, not 14mph.
2.5
Wear for racing,
2.5
Wear for racing, sportives etc. I don’t if I’m wearing normal clothes (Brompton, shopping etc).
…but once again we’re going over the same old ground regarding helmets as if they make any significant difference to safety. A helmet might provide some protection, for some impacts; probably not as much as many believe, but something. They don’t do anything to stop left hooks, smidsys, or many other causes of serious accidents. To my mind the biggest counter-argument to helmets is that the Dutch and Danes seem to manage perfectly OK with a massive majority not wearing helmets. We should be working towards doing whatever it is that enables them to do this, rather than get distracted with helmets.
How about real deterrents and consequences for bad driving?
How about presumed liability?
The key negative to helmets, especially enforced helmets is that they increase the perception that ‘cycling is dangerous’ and reduce cycling rates.
Quote:Helmet use is one of
http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/3413.html
I wear a helmet and I totally agree with Boardman. When I’m out on the road bike the times I feel most threatened I can guarantee that a helmet isn’t going to save my life or me from serious injury.
It’s a non-argument and a convenient diversion from the real problems.
Fatwa on articles that so
Fatwa on articles that so much as mention the merits/dismerits of helmet wearing.
3, don’t use one for normal
3, don’t use one for normal everyday use (cycle couriering/commuting). And I dare say I know more about road safety and risk avoidance strategy than most of the people who keep being quoted.
I can only post what I posted
I can only post what I posted on the original story’s website:
“Mr Carter is suffering from “observation bias” where he only sees a tiny fraction of the population, and bases his view on that and using the disgraceful Cochrane review as proof merely shows that he understands nothing about the problem.
Cochrane reviews have very tight criteria to ensure balance and the elimination of bias, but the review of cycle helmets ignored all of them and has seriously damaged the reputation of such reviews. This review was done by the biggest helmet promoters on the planet who looked at their own work and excluded any research which didn’t agree with their pre-conceived conclusions. By using this review as his sole source, Mr Carter proves beyond doubt that he is completely misinformed.
Mr Carter is also guilty of exaggerating the problem “We get an enormous number of cycling accidents coming in here.” Just how many is “enormous” and what proportion of the total number is that? Without those figures Mr Carter is just scaremongering and deliberately deterring people from healthy, safe exercise.
According to him, cycling is incredibly dangerous, but regular cyclists, those most exposed to the risk, live longer and are fitter, healthier and slimmer than general. Cycling has about the same risk as walking, so will Mr Carter be promoting walking helmets?
It’s difficult to believe that a professional person could be quite so misinformed on a subject, but unfortunately all too believable that they would broadcast their lack of knowledge to the world.
Mr Carter can find out the facts, not the fairy stories and Cochrane reviews, at cyclehelmets.org”
1.5. Pro helmet. Particularly
1.5. Pro helmet. Particularly the one that save my head, and possibly my life, whilst I was smashing up my collar bone. And not opposed to compulsion.
As for the idea that helmets being mandatory would put people off cycling. The same nonsense was spouted in the early 80’s when seatbelts became mandatory. Did anyone give up their car? Not a single one. Would you expect to drive around today without a seatbelt? No, and let’s face it, if you got in a taxi tomorrow and there were no seatbelts you would probably get straight back out.
The culture has to change!
And if anyone is going to quote the studies, read all the data sources in them before looking at the conclusions of someone who had grant money to spend proving a case in the first place. The countries that enforce helmets all have completely different cultures of cycling and driving to the UK. Not least, most of them drive on the wrong side of the road meaning 90% of them are steering primarily with their weaker hand whilst we drive on the sensible side and only the 10% of lefties are steering with their weaker hand.
kevinmorice wrote:
As for the
And the evidence we have from Australia and NZ is that compulsory helmets led to less cycling. Driving is normal, cycling is something weirdos with a death wish do…
Do the dutch and the danes wear helmets?
Do we want to encourage utility cycling or not?
Is cycling, utility cycling, dangerous?
Here in New Zealand we’ve had
Here in New Zealand we’ve had a compulsory all age helmet law since 1994. As a percentage, cyclist fatalities have remained unchanged at 4.6% of road fatalities and injuries have INCREASED. Meanwhile cyclist modal share has dropped from 4% to 1%.
90% of cyclists killed are wearing helmets.
I was a little surprised to find a couple of deaths in a recent coronial enquiry involved helmet wearing cyclists hitting objects at relatively low speeds (32 and 45 kph).
I commute 20 kms on a main road without much in the way of cycle lanes. A helmet for me is a complete waste of time as any accident will involve a vehicle weighing anything from 1 tonne to 50 tonnes travelling at 100 kph.
It’s really interesting that here, we have widespread support for compulsory helmet wearing for cyclists but almost nothing for a minimum passing distance. I’d much rather not be hit by 40 tonnes of moving steel than try and mitigate that sort of force by wearing a couple of cms of polystyrene.
kevinmorice wrote:1.5. Pro
The two countries that have a compulsory all age helmet law are both essentially English (Australia and New Zealand) and drive on the same side of the road as you do. Both countries have considerably worse accident rates than England (probably due to the roads and the number of English tourists).
It’s interesting that in both countries any study that claims a reduction in head injuries always fails to mention the dramatic drop in cyclist numbers after the introduction of the law… wonder why that is?
I’d be really interested in hearing about a country that has increased ridership after helmet laws were introduced… after all there’s plenty of information about dramatic increases in safety and ridership after infrastructure is built – surely it must be the same for helmets?
Am I the only person who
Am I the only person who noticed and understood the adjective PAEDIATRIC? This Neurosurgeon is talking about children falling off their bikes and that is who cycle helmets are designed to protect.
Yeah I noticed that.
Yeah I noticed that. Interesting that there’s a recent study out of the States that looked at compulsory helmet wearing for children. That study found that States with a compulsory law for children had a drop in cyclist numbers as kids changed from biking to other wheeled devices… and the head injury rate remained unchanged.
Apparently scooters and skates cause head injuries as well…
I hit a rut in the road, I
I hit a rut in the road, I fell and severely wacked the side of my head, people following said I was out for a minute or so, once up and about slurred speech made it was obvious I was suffering concussion, an ambulance was called CT scan followed no lasting damage except for a bust helmet, me just a couple of weeks off the bike for the concussion. The fact is the helmet gave me a vital margin of extra protection.. worth it you bet it was and is, otherwise I might be dead now. Martin
nitram wrote:I hit a rut in
First of all, I’m glad that you’re OK. And I’m just trying to make a rational point here, not trying to have a go, so don’t take the following personally, but…
The problem with drawing conclusions from anecdotal experience like this though, is that no, that’s not a fact; not a proven fact anyway. It’s conjecture. Without reconstructing the exact circumstances of the accident, down to the speed and trajectory of your fall, only this time without a helmet, you can’t know for sure whether the helmet made a significant difference or not. It’s a natural assumption to make, that things would have been worse without the helmet, but think of it a different way for a moment. The fact that you were wearing a helmet but were knocked out and concussed anyway, raises a question over whether your helmet worked at all. Maybe it was subjected to forces beyond those it was designed for, failed and you suffered basically the same injuries you would have done without the helmet.
I’m not saying that’s definitely the case, but it’s a possibility. Others further down the thread have explained the crash physics to support that possibility better than I could. And I’m not saying that you shouldn’t wear a helmet either. Another possibility is that your helmet did help to protect you, and you’re clearly happier wearing one, so you should. What I am saying is that, when we get as far as discussing a compulsory helmet law, laws have to be based on more than just assumptions drawn from isolated incidents. The science and statistics need to unequivocally support the case for a helmet law, and at the moment, neither one of them do.
The fact that the medical
The fact that the medical profession continues to remain divided over the efficacy of cycle helmets should ensure there should never be legislation to compel cyclists to wear them.
It should remain a personal choice.
Stop it, all of you. Just
Stop it, all of you. Just stop it.
surly_by_name wrote:Stop it,
Is there some equivalent to Godwin’s Law for cycling articles ? I dunno, maybe something like “That’s the sort of thing i’d expect from Boris Johnson” ?
surly_by_name wrote:Stop it,
You could always just stop reading it…
Wow, you guys have been
Wow, you guys have been busy!
I’m a 2.8 by the way.
I’m not really anti-helmet, however it concerns me that too much focus is placed on helmets, when addressing other areas will make a greater positive difference to cycling in the UK.
Also, by their very existence, helmets promote the idea that cycling is dangerous. Now for the enthusiast, that’s great, we all want to feel a bit ‘hard’ and ‘risky’ when doing our hobby, but for the chap just wanting to pop to the shops, he doesn’t need, or want to be told that he is risking his life in doing so.
And that’s my point… cycling is not a dangerous activity. It is ludicrously safe.
To me that’s the message that we need to be shouting all day and every day. Suggesting it is dangerous will not only put people off, but will justify to certain car drivers that they can neglect their duty of care around cyclists as ‘after all, its so dangerous, these cyclists are taking their lives in their hands every time the straddle a bike, its not my fault I just happened to be the poor car driver they ended up hitting’.
And now I’ll shut up.
helmet for children seems
helmet for children seems fair enough, for adults there are interesting and complex trade offs. I wonder if i feel safer with a helmet on despite the fact that most types of accident would not be ameliorated by it. This extra sense of safetly might diminish my actual safety as it means i might be less cautious than if i didnt wear a helmet. But perhaps as i always wear one, not doing so would feel more exposed. A person who never wears one may not feel this extra exposure.
Get away from your computer!
Get away from your computer! Lie down on the floor and put your hands on your head! Don’t move!
We’re not due a helmet story forum shitstorm until at least March.