Online cycling giant Wiggle got into a spot of bother yesterday when it emerged that the company had posted a blog supporting the mandatory wearing of helmets.
It all started with this message, subsequently deleted, from the @WiggleCulture Twitter account: “Should cycle helmets be compulsory? WE SAY YES! http://blog.wiggle.com/2013/08/05/cycle-helmets/ ”
The blog entry – originally posted in August – backed Sir Bradley Wiggins’ support for mandatory helmet use. It was credited to Wiggle employee Tim Wiggins and was therefore interpreted as reflecting Wiggle policy.
Reaction from the cycling community on Twitter was swift and less than laudatory.
The GB Cycling Embassy tweeted: “Newsflash – company that sells lots of bike helmets thinks you should be forced to buy helmets.”
Guardian reporter and cycling columnist Peter Walker commented: “@wigglebikeshop argue for compulsory bike helmets. Not sure I'll want to shop with them again immediately “
Cycling blogger David Arditti added: “@wigglebikeshop A company that opposes freedom of choice & spreads misinformation on bike helmets loses my custom.”
Wiggle found itself accused of an ill-informed contribution to the helmet debate because of passages like this:
“With a surge in the amount of cyclists on the roads there is always the worry that there will also be an increase in the number of cyclist deaths and number of cyclists injured from road accidents: it is usually the use of a helmet that dictates who falls into each of those two categories.”
And this:
“In the early 90’s, Australia passed a law for compulsory helmets which saw cycling rates plummet, particularly in teenage girls who thought that helmets were not fashionable: in fact cycling rates in this group fell by around 90 per cent. But is this initial drop in cycling rates worth the risk to save hundreds of lives? I think so.”
Cycling blogger Stan F was one of many who attacked the content of the article, calling it: “Poor science, scaremongering and linked to a buy a helmet button.”
The blog was swiftly modified to indicate that it was a guest post from the Ryan Smith Foundation, which campaigns for mandatory helmet use. The company also added: “Wiggle’s stance on the helmet debate remains neutral.”
Tim Wiggins posted: “I did not write this article. It was just published on my account. It's not my personal view. Thanks.”
Wiggins also said he had deleted the original tweet from the @WiggleCulture account. “It was a miscommunication within our team and didn't reflect my own or Wiggle's view,” he said.
But while the blog is now correctly credited, not everyone is happy with the end result. Wiggle have been criticised for the buttons on that link to Wiggle’s helmet pages and @ShoestringCycle commented: “still not clear enough it's written by that charity”.
Others have commented that it’s odd for a cycling retailer to appear to back helmet mandation at all, as cycling has decreased in jurisdictions such as New Zealand and Australia that have made helmet use compulsory. Wiggle might sell more helmets, but their sales of everything else would therefore probably go down if helmets were mandatory in the UK.





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180 thoughts on “Wiggle rides into Twitter storm over ‘make helmets compulsory’ blog”
This just in: people on the
This just in: people on the internet severely overreact to someone’s opinion. Conspiracy theories abound and reason is ignored; details to follow, but all will be forgotten by then.
DavidC wrote:This just in:
This.
DavidC wrote:This just in:
Seems like ‘social media’ is the modern term for ‘rampaging angry mob’ – now seen brandishing smart phones instead of pitchforks and flaming torches…
Genius move from Wiggle.
I’d
Genius move from Wiggle.
I’d suggest it’s very very stupid for bicycle retailers to advocate helmet laws. Helmet laws reduce cycling. Shrinking the market is a *dumb* business move. That a higher percentage of cyclists would have to buy helmets won’t make up for all the money they’d lose from there being far fewer cyclists.
Bicycle retailers: Supporting compulsory helmet laws will likely *HURT* your business – both in terms of goodwill *now* and fewer cyclists should your campaign succeed. Don’t be so stupid!
If they are going to come out
If they are going to come out and use all their social media and advertising powers to call for compulsory helmets, then they are themselves just a bunch of helmets.
The way they ploughed into this inflammatory topic with such gleeful naivete suggests one of two things;
They either do not have a clue about cyclists or they simply do not give a fuck about cyclists.
Either one of those reasons is offensive to me as a customer, so my money will be going elsewhere. Wiggle can stick it up their arse.
Noise. Wiggle/Wiggins and
Noise. Wiggle/Wiggins and other big cycling brands should wade into this *debate*, but it was just an opinion. It hasn’t lead to immediate Gulag-like enforcement of all the non-helmet wearers.
And to boycott a store for a comment like this (which could help avoid serious injury!) is hilarious. People are acting like Wiggle recommended the drowning of kittens.
Oh, to be bothered…..
Oh, to be bothered…..
Im not sure if the owners of
Im not sure if the owners of my local bike shop have an opinion about helmet use because they have never expressed one to me and i am grateful to them for that and, as such, will continue to go to them for bikes and bike related products. If i want a lecture on what i wear on my head whilst cycling i can go to my mums or just come on here and listen to you lot* whine on about it.
As a consumer in a liberal capitalist democracy i can choose where to do my shopping and an online retailer (who just happens to sell an extensive range of the product they wish to make mandatory) who upsets me, however trivial, will be demoted down my list of preferred retailers.
*i, of course, include myself in that whining
They’ve made themselves look
They’ve made themselves look a bit daft, but there’s some massive over-reacting going on here. Boycotts? Really?
Surprising naivety as far as social media goes though (depending on how you interpret the back-pedalling). It doesn’t matter about guest blogs or whatever- if it’s on Wiggle’s site, twitter account or whatever they can’t be surprised when people think the content reflects their position.
To my mind there are three
To my mind there are three issues here:
1. Wiggle publishing third party opinion
2. Wiggle supporting compulsion (which they now deny, but “WE SAY YES!” seems kind of emphatic)
3. An article which is based on spurious data, poor analysis and dubious “facts”
With the first, I have no problem.
With the second, I personally have sufficient problem to take my custom elsewhere – but that’s entirely my subjective view and I’d hardly expect everyone to agree.
With the third, however, I think we should *all* have an objective problem with the debate being polluted by poor data and flawed arguments, no matter which side of the fence they are shouted from.
i remember the good old days
i remember the good old days when people were entitled to an opinion. you may not have agreed with it (as is your right) and thought it was a load of cobblers,but they were entitled to view it.
Surely that is all part of a debate. i find it quite saddening on the compulsory helmet issue that if anyone calls for them to be made compulsory there is a vociferous/nasty reaction to what they are saying. When Brad, or Cav or Laura Trott voiced their opinion the reaction was frightening, as is the case everytime something like this occurs
Surely it is not much of a debate if everytime someone sticks their neck above the parapet they are machine gunned.
🙁
surely there should have been
surely there should have been the option of clicking another button ‘ Buy everything else besides helmets from Wiggle’
i remember the good old days
i remember the good old days when people were entitled to an opinion. you may not have agreed with it (as is your right) and thought it was a load of cobblers,but they were entitled to view it.
Surely that is all part of a debate. i find it quite saddening on the compulsory helmet issue that if anyone calls for them to be made compulsory there is a vociferous/nasty reaction to what they are saying. When Brad, or Cav or Laura Trott voiced their opinion the reaction was frightening, as is the case everytime something like this occurs
Surely it is not much of a debate if everytime someone sticks their neck above the parapet they are machine gunned.
🙁
fretters wrote:i remember the
If someone wants to impose a law on someone else against their will, a law that affects something that is important to them, a law imposed out of ignorance and spite, then what kind of reaction to you think they are going to get from the victim of their imposed restrictions? I have never heard anyone propose that helmets be banned but perhaps they should put that forward then we can see how well that proposal is accepted by your side. Perhaps it might make you understand how those of us on the receiving end of your desire to make everyone do something because you do it feel.
> Story features the H word
> Story features the H word in title
> Comments BTL go ballistic
I wear a helmet all the time,
I wear a helmet all the time, and for a simple reason.
I had a big accident many years ago, I wasn’t wearing a helmet. I was unconscious for about 5 hours, and smashed 3 vertebrae. That really hurt!!
I was told simply, if I don’t wear a helmet in future the out come may not be so good! So it is either cycle slower, or protect the parts that matter.
Can’t comment on the blog or twitter post as they have disappeared but if there was a referendum on this I would vote for compulsory helmet wearing.
So much has been said about
So much has been said about freedom of choice – what about freedom of speech?
oh FFS ! Wiggle dont make
oh FFS ! Wiggle dont make laws, they just express an opinion, which I do happen to agree with.
yes its personal choice, but having had one cracked helmet and seen one or two others saved head injury by them, i can honestly say I dont want to be confronting a post-off head injury suffered by one of my cycle buddies – or worse.
spindoctore wrote:oh FFS !
That’s fine and if you want to wear a helmet, go for it. I always do.
But I don’t preach to others about helmet compulsion and I certainly don’t use the blog of a major online retailer to air ill-informed, prejudiced, reactionary views.
The point here is that Wiggle stepped into a massive shitstorm entirely of their own making through extremely ill-judged use of social media. By all means allow a contributor to air their views but make it absolutely clear from the outset what you’re doing and allow another contributor to present the opposite view. That’s healthy debate, gets people to your site and engages with your audience.
Posting a tweet saying “WE SAY YES” [to helmet compulsion] is just asking for trouble, especially when “backed up” by flawed, inconsistent data.
I just simply wouldn’t ride
I just simply wouldn’t ride without a helmet – I understand others don’t want to and don’t feel they should have to, but considering on a motorbike you have a crash helmet, and in a car you have a huge metal shell around you, I figure a helmet is the least I can do on a bike. I just bought the Specialized Align in Flourescent Yellow. I seem to recall someone previously calling cyclists who wear high vis helmets as lacking “self respect” and “being stupid”. High quality arguement that, not wanting to be seen makes you more intelligent?!
No it might not save my life in a major accident, but it could just as easily do so.
I am ambivalent to the issue over Wiggle, although I don’t see how they thought they’d come out of it well as it could have been seen as a cynical ploy to sell more helmets.
By the way though, you can buy the same helmet as mine through Edinburgh Bicycle Co-operative (where I got mine) here http://www.edinburghbicycle.com/products/specialized-align-helmet 😉
The trouble is the more noise
The trouble is the more noise there is the more likely it is that the law makers hear it.
Everyone loves to say how our grandfathers fought for our freedom, and yet every day that ‘freedom’ gets further eroded.
Anyone who says helmets must be compulsory should also argue that walking is also dangerous and requires a helmet too.
And surely cycling in lycra is the most flagrant disregard for one’s safety?
So are we now having a debate
So are we now having a debate about whether there should be a debate? It’s a bit like the UCI congress in here… 😉
I don’t see why anyone thinks it is unfair/unreasonable for people to publicly disagree with views published by an online retailer and to state that they won’t shop there now. Wiggle is a commercial entity – their choice to publish the material (whether they agreed with it or not) will have been commercially motivated. They wanted to drive more traffic to their site and, hopefully, increase sales. It’s a perfectly reasonable reaction, if the material contains false claims or present unsupported opinions as facts, to (a) call out the issues in the material and (b) criticise Wiggle for publishing them and avoid buying from them because of it.
Personally, I don’t give a monkey’s what they think. I’m not looking for their opinion on the helmet debate (I have my own reasoned opinion on that), just for cheap cycle goods. But if others feel Wiggle is doing harm, why not publicly state their choice not to shop there? Wiggle started the debate in the public domain, for commercial reasons. The consequences of that are easily foreseeable and hardly unreasonable…
As George Michael once
As George Michael once said
Freedom of speech
Freedom of choice
Freedom to buy from Ribble instead
You don’t need data when
You don’t need data when you’ve seen a serious head injury of another cyclist, but hey who really cares what Wiggle’s opinion is on the matter. Over reaction of people who live their lives on social media… 8|
southseabythesea wrote:You
Yeah, who needs facts! You can use them to prove anything that’s remotely true.
FFS, the world is infinitely bigger than your limited, emotionally charged experience. That’s why we have statistics, and methodology, and the scientific method – to make sense of it all. Yes, even helmets.
More damage has been done by panicky idiots like you who revel in ignorance, than has ever been done by evil thinkers.
I am anti helmet compulsion.
I am anti helmet compulsion. I wear one on the odd occasion i go mountain biking, and extremely occasionally on the road. Helmets are designed for falling off at slowish speeds, not for being whacked by a 3.5T lump of metal at 40 miles an hour.
The problem with things like the Wiggle guest blog, is not the argument, but the extremely poor biased statistics and emotional blackmail that most of the helmet zealots push.
I’m all in favour of a reasoned debate, and virtually all reason is that compulsion is wrong and that it should be personal and free choice.
helmets are about mitigating the effects of a crash, usually a collision for most which as I have said above helmets are not designed for.
It is better to push for safer infrastructure and education to reduce the chances in the first place.
Also helmets would save lives of many pedestrians and car passengers, but there are no calls for them to be compulsory there.
Wibble.
Wibble.
Can Wiggins campaign to stop
Can Wiggins campaign to stop drivers knocking us over in cars, then we wouldn’t need to wear helmets all the time.
Wiggle could then write a blog about that.
Ladders wrote:Can Wiggins
Personally, I wear one, but then I cycle on poorly maintained country lanes. I know a helmet won’t stop me getting crushed under a car, but it would help me if I hit a pot hole at 20mph and pitched off (or into) the road…
Nobody is stopping anyone
Nobody is stopping anyone from choosing to wear a helmet.
However, if you choose compulsion, then you are forcing everyone else to wear one, regardless of whether they work or not, and that boils my p:ss
You are forcing people to wear something where the evidence and science are massively mixed and show no significant reduction in deaths. In fact some studies claim compulsion increased injuries and deaths.
Unless you’ve fully understood all the research and science how can you make a choice for compulsion, which affects everybody. Whereas if you choose to wear a helmet that choice affects only yourself.
To do this as a large influential retailer and then place a
“buy a helmet button” next to a scientifically dubious and misleading article is beyond a joke
The only bit of that blog
The only bit of that blog that annoys me is that bit where its says “What are your views?”, but there is no comment section. What do you do? E-mail them? To be honest, I wish they’d stop this gimmicky marketing stuff to promote themselves with blogs, polls and multiple Twitter accounts. They are, after all, an online bike retailer, not a cycling magazine.
Jesus what a black and white
Jesus what a black and white world we live in, you are a twat to support helmets and a twat if you don’t and jesus don’t ever tell anybody your views because they will have you hung drawn and quartered just like Wiggle now.
Why do we always take extremes to justify stuff, oh it won’t stop you being killed by and 18 wheeler running over you, no shit ! and because the helmet won’t save you from every accident then there is no point in having one, what complete and utter crap that is, lets remove airbags from cars, because you know what, it doesn’t always save you, lets get rid of seat belts.
I always ask this question, I’m going to ask you to headbutt the wall, will it hurt with or without a helmet, and falling off your bike and hitting your head on the floor is just like headbutting the wall, there are benefits there is no doubt, but of course it will not save you from the 18 wheel lorry.
I will never ride without a helmet, but I ride with people who don’t and you know what, I don’t care, I don’t batter them with facts or figures, I don’t say I’m not going to ride with you, its their choice and thats it, so stop having a go at people who have a view, stop making extreme views to justify stuff.
I am NOT in favour of a compulsory helmets, why ? look at motorbikes, they are already talking of compulsory hi-vis stuff, and this will come to cycling once restrictions such as helmets apply.
But I think cyclist who wear all black are stupid as they are not as visible… but its their choice and I would like to keep it that way.
mikeprytherch wrote:I always
And I always reply, since you’re the one proposing the supposed ‘safety’ intervention, why don’t you go and do it yourself and get back to me with the results?
Not that they’ll mean anything if you do, of course, as the exercise has nothing to do with cycling.
The reasons sportives usually
The reasons sportives usually give for their compulsory helmet rules are around insurance and risk assessments for the event license
Bog all to do with the sponsor, so rather off-topic I feel
If you wear one fine, if you
If you wear one fine, if you dont fine, its your choice.
However as a business why cant Wiggle or anyone other business for that matter have an opinion on something. If people dont like it thats ok but why should dissenters force a business to change just because they dont like it ?
stumps wrote:If you wear one
Because those dissenters are customers. Of course they can have an opinion; and they can face the financial ramifications. As someone earlier said, freedom of speech is not freedom from disagreement.
FFS, so many thickos forcing us to retread the same shit over and over again…
stumps wrote:However as a
Their opinion isn’t just “You should wear a helmet” it’s “You should be made a criminal for not wearing one”.
More importantly, why the fuck should people allow a business with a vested interest be a driver for having a countries laws changed?
farrell wrote:stumps
Thats life though mate, big business tries everything to influence our lives, but your right they shouldn’t.
Sent you an email 🙂
Helmet trolling; love it.
The
Helmet trolling; love it.
The best argument I heard was Chris Boardman (iirc), saying that had there been a spate of drive-by shootings, would you (a) legislate for pedestrians to wear bullet-proof vests, or (b) arrest the miscreants with Uzis and make them see the error of their ways?
Saying all that – I always wear a helmet, no matter how short the ride. It’s my choice. I will defend anyone else’s right to choose differently.
Just don’t impose your choices on other people. Then I get cross. Not as cross as Mr Stevenson, probably – but still.
i often see statements
i often see statements similar to this posted
“as cycling has decreased in jurisdictions such as New Zealand and Australia that have made helmet use compulsory.”
i would love to know where they come from. if you were to believe them then, you would think that cycling in Aus has declined since the 90’s. cycling in Aus has gone through a massive boom since then.
anecdotally,i also did not notice any decline in cycling when the laws were introduced.
dbb wrote:i often see
Then you’re blind. They were well recorded.
dbb wrote:i often see
Really? Can you show the evidence of this “massive boom”? Isn’t modal share still stuck somewhere around 1%?
You hear the same hype about the UK, mind. People seem to be working with different definitions of ‘massive’ and ‘boom’ than I have.
I would applaud Wiggle for
I would applaud Wiggle for sticking their head above the parapet on the helmet debate if only they were prepared to defend their position… But they weren’t prepared to so shame on them… I’ll still shop there though… I like haribos.
My own personal experience
My own personal experience leads me towards wearing a helmet at all times, having seen what happens when things go wrong without one.
Helmets shouldn’t be compulsory, but no-one gets my sympathy if they fall off their bike and suffer an entirely preventable head injury. Yes, I get it, a helmet won’t save you if you get sideswiped by a truck at 40mph but that’s not what they’re designed for. They’re meant to prevent you cracking your head open when you go down, which past helmets have done for me successfully both on and off-road.
With modern helmet design and lightness at record levels, there’s just no excuse if you value the contents of your head…
Linkinbassist wrote:My own
But what is this “when you go down” thing you speak of? I feel perfectly capable of riding my bike, which I do most days, without ever “going down”.
Judicious use of the Mk1 human eyeball and the brake levers are all that is required to ride safely.
Linkinbassist wrote:My own
This is fair enough. To the extent one worries one might fall off without motorist involvement then a helmet is a good idea, especially if you tend to cycle at speed.
Though the one time I went over the handlebars sans helmet I only suffered minor cuts and bruising.
(Learned the hard way its not a good idea to try and signal a left turn and brake for a downward slope at the same time – afterwards when I looked to see what the vehicular cycling solution was to this problem, _Cyclecraft_ usefully informed me “sometimes you have to choose between signalling and braking” – wow, what a font of insightful information that work is! Sometimes now I resort to sticking my left leg out instead and hope that will get the message across)
Though what do you mean by this? In what sense is ‘modern helmet design’ at record levels? Surely they offer no more protection than they ever did?
oo dear someone just got
oo dear someone just got sacked.
That reminds me, I must return them fault shoes.
If you’re riding without a
If you’re riding without a helmet there’s nothing in there worth protecting.
I’m all in favour of the law change, but I would also like to let Darwinism take it’s course and let the helmet-less riders get taken out of the gene pool.
William Black wrote:If you’re
Yawn. More meaningless abuse and poor logic.
If you are proud to expound social-Darwinism, fair enough, but you do realise its a fascist outlook, right? But I guess in your view any cyclist killed by a motorist deserved it for not being amongst the ‘strong’, right?
FluffyKittenofTindalos
Well if you’re not allowed to do it through Eugenics you’ve got to think out of the box.
William Black
The problem with your plan though that helmet-wearing is not a significant ‘selection’ factor.
Because most cyclist deaths are due to bad road design and bad driving. If the primary selection factor is not under the control of those being selected and essentially random, you won’t get any meaningful evolutionary effect.
Also, your dubious logic would suggest that its motorists who are going to be evolved out of existence, due to their high rate of heart-disease.
Do you really all not dictate
Do you really all not dictate that others should wear helmets?
How many of you have children that don’t wear helmets when cycling or on their scooter? Do we not make them wear them? And we cite “safety” as the reason yes?
I think helmets should be worn at all times. I won’t let my son even sit on his bike without a helmet.
Not because I think it will save my life if I get run over by a truck as that is clearly nonsense. But what it will do if I get knocked off or fall off and hit my head is hopefully put me in a position where I am not lying in the middle of the road waiting to be run over because I’ve been knocked unconscious!
I’m not aware anyone has said wearing a helmet will stop you getting run over. What it will do is prevent a head trauma which could save your life.
I do find it amusing all these “traditional” cyclists refuse to wear them because they won’t be told what to do. It’s very childish. It’s not setting a very good example to our young.
Simples!
Demazter wrote:
How many of
Just out interest – did you and your friends ride bikes and scooters when you were young and if so how many of you wore helmets?
Also – are you familiar with the term ‘risk averse’?
Quote:Just out interest – did
No, I didn’t wear helmets when I was a child. Which is why I ended up being knocked out going over my handlebars when my chain came off. Thankfully a passer-by moved me out of the road. Therefore avoiding being run over.
Risk averse? Small investment (helmet) guaranteed return (less chance if being knocked out if you fall off)
Or large investment with high risk and high probability of failure.
Not sure how this is even relevant?
I really for see what the issue is with wearing helmets? Maybe someone could spell it out?
Demazter wrote:
Risk averse?
I’m very worried that your children are going to suffer more neck injuries and more serious rotational injuries as a result of their helmet wearing. I shall be getting a grandstanding politician to propose Dematzer’s Law in which you can be fined for forcing these dangerous contraptions on to your innocent children.
Of course you will probably then force them to wear a bag of crisps sellotaped to their head(*): lightweight, cheap, _obviously_ reduces injuries (if you don’t believe me then try banging your head into a wall without a bag of crisps sellotaped on, then try it with and come back to me with the result), and it makes a good place to put a light.
Wearing a bag of crisps on your head has been proven in a variety of selectively reported trials to reduce cycling head injuries by an amazing 49.35%
I had a friend who was wearing a bag of crisps on his head and he has gone over the handlebars 13 times. Each time the bag of crisps was COMPLETELY BURST AND CRUSHED. He would have been dead if he hadn’t worn that bag of crisps.
Can someone please tell me why they would wear a seatbelt, which is a safety device, and not wear a bag of crisps, which is also a safety device.
Morons.
* Forgot to add: if you’re going mountain-biking you need to replace the crisps with something more appropriate, like hamsters.
Demazter wrote:
I think
The same here, Ours is two and it’s the first thing she does picks her helmet from the shelf and asks to get on her trike.
Having previously had a partner working in a major brain injury unit it’s pretty much a – excuse the pun – no brainer.
William Black wrote:Demazter
Did your partner never see any motorists with a brain injury? Or anyone who suffered such an injury after being hit by a car?
I trust then, by the same logic, you never get into a car?
(admittedly there are two different topics getting mixed up here – you are certainly free to take whatever precautions you think appropriate with your own child).
FluffyKittenofTindalos
Did your partner never see any motorists with a brain injury? Or anyone who suffered such an injury after being hit by a car?
I trust then, by the same logic, you never get into a car?
(admittedly there are two different topics getting mixed up here – you are certainly free to take whatever precautions you think appropriate with your own child).— Demazter
Chairs, Steps, Showers it doesn’t matter, the fact remains should for instance someone have been wearing a helmet when they were leaning back on a chair and fell to a concrete floor they may not have been confined to brain unit for the rest of their lives.
Do you wear a helmet when you balance a chair on two legs, or step into shower? Of course you don’t that would be ridiculous and an argumentative dead end.
Do you wear a protective clothing when opening an oven, riding a bike, going sailing or driving a car? Of course you do because one would hope you’ve got an IQ of over 80.
William Black wrote:
Chairs,
I have no clue what point you are attempting to make here. Nor how its supposed to relate to my question. You seem to be saying ‘wear protective clothing when I say you should, don’t when I don’t say you should’. This is not persuasive.
William Black wrote:
Do you
I see no reason why I would wear protective clothing for any of the above, driving a car ? Really?
Sure I wear a lid sometimes when riding, but it is pretty hard to imagine how I could hit my head when riding my three wheeled Bakfiets to the local shops, in fact riding a bike in almost any circumstances is probably far less dangerous than balancing a chair on two legs, that’s stupid.
drfabulous0 wrote:
I see no
Seriously you’d pull something out of a hot oven without gloves? sail a boat without wearing a buoyancy aid, drive without a seatbelt? These are all some form of personal safety devices.
You say you wouldn’t balance on a chair “That’s stupid” but that’s almost the same sort of injury / moderate speed blunt force impact that a helmet is primarily designed to protect you from.
William Black
Seriously you’d pull something out of a hot oven without gloves? sail a boat without wearing a buoyancy aid, drive without a seatbelt? These are all some form of personal safety devices.
You say you wouldn’t balance on a chair “That’s stupid” but that’s almost the same sort of injury / moderate speed blunt force impact that a helmet is primarily designed to protect you from.— drfabulous0
You are backtracking, you specified clothing, a seatbelt isn’t clothing and pulling a tray from ahot oven is not the same as openning it, for that a tea towel is sufficient and totally unnecessary when removing say a pizza, just as wearing a life jacket while sipping Martini on a yacht would be pointless, especially as I can swim, but sure I would wear one if I were sailing a small catamaran with the boom swinging around, just as I would wear a helmet if I go mountain biking, but nipping down the shops? There is just not enough risk to justify it. Do you want compulsory oven gloves too?
drfabulous0 wrote:…You are
I’m not backtracking if you read the post you would also have seen the intent of what was written, you are picking up on mere minutiae.
But hey, slow clap for the pedant.
William Black
Seriously you’d pull something out of a hot oven without gloves? sail a boat without wearing a buoyancy aid, drive without a seatbelt? These are all some form of personal safety devices.
You say you wouldn’t balance on a chair “That’s stupid” but that’s almost the same sort of injury / moderate speed blunt force impact that a helmet is primarily designed to protect you from.— drfabulous0
I often pull things out of ovens without gloves. I don’t, however, ever get into a car. There are millions of deaths and injuries ascribable to someone getting behind the wheel of a car.
How about you let me carry on occasionally pulling things out of ovens without an NBC suit (even if once in a blue moon I end up dropping my dinner on the floor) and I tolerate other people driving cars?
Even though the latter is both a much more dangerous thing to do and also puts others at risk which in my book makes it morally more problematic.
Or we can make oven gloves, and cycle helmets, compulsory, while banning driving.
FluffyKittenofTindalos
Seriously you’d pull something out of a hot oven without gloves? sail a boat without wearing a buoyancy aid, drive without a seatbelt? These are all some form of personal safety devices.
You say you wouldn’t balance on a chair “That’s stupid” but that’s almost the same sort of injury / moderate speed blunt force impact that a helmet is primarily designed to protect you from.— William Black
I often pull things out of ovens without gloves. I don’t, however, ever get into a car. There are millions of deaths and injuries ascribable to someone getting behind the wheel of a car.
How about you let me carry on occasionally pulling things out of ovens without an NBC suit (even if once in a blue moon I end up dropping my dinner on the floor) and I tolerate other people driving cars?
Even though the latter is both a much more dangerous thing to do and also puts others at risk which in my book makes it morally more problematic.
Or we can make oven gloves, and cycle helmets, compulsory, while banning driving.— drfabulous0
You really must congratulate such an absurdly tangential response, god bless the internet forum warrior!
William Black
Seriously you’d pull something out of a hot oven without gloves? sail a boat without wearing a buoyancy aid, drive without a seatbelt? These are all some form of personal safety devices.
You say you wouldn’t balance on a chair “That’s stupid” but that’s almost the same sort of injury / moderate speed blunt force impact that a helmet is primarily designed to protect you from.— FluffyKittenofTindalos
I often pull things out of ovens without gloves. I don’t, however, ever get into a car. There are millions of deaths and injuries ascribable to someone getting behind the wheel of a car.
How about you let me carry on occasionally pulling things out of ovens without an NBC suit (even if once in a blue moon I end up dropping my dinner on the floor) and I tolerate other people driving cars?
Even though the latter is both a much more dangerous thing to do and also puts others at risk which in my book makes it morally more problematic.
Or we can make oven gloves, and cycle helmets, compulsory, while banning driving.— William Black
You really must congratulate such an absurdly tangential response, god bless the internet forum warrior!— drfabulous0
The guy who brings in ‘taking things out of ovens’ as a topic accuses someone of being ‘absurdly tangential’? Right, OK, sure.
You never actually respond to any points made, instead you just throw insults and come up with weird non-sequitors. Why are you here?
FluffyKittenofTindalos
Seriously you’d pull something out of a hot oven without gloves? sail a boat without wearing a buoyancy aid, drive without a seatbelt? These are all some form of personal safety devices.
You say you wouldn’t balance on a chair “That’s stupid” but that’s almost the same sort of injury / moderate speed blunt force impact that a helmet is primarily designed to protect you from.— William Black
I often pull things out of ovens without gloves. I don’t, however, ever get into a car. There are millions of deaths and injuries ascribable to someone getting behind the wheel of a car.
How about you let me carry on occasionally pulling things out of ovens without an NBC suit (even if once in a blue moon I end up dropping my dinner on the floor) and I tolerate other people driving cars?
Even though the latter is both a much more dangerous thing to do and also puts others at risk which in my book makes it morally more problematic.
Or we can make oven gloves, and cycle helmets, compulsory, while banning driving.— FluffyKittenofTindalos
You really must congratulate such an absurdly tangential response, god bless the internet forum warrior!— William Black
The guy who brings in ‘taking things out of ovens’ as a topic accuses someone of being ‘absurdly tangential’? Right, OK, sure.
You never actually respond to any points made, instead you just throw insults and come up with weird non-sequitors. Why are you here?— drfabulous0
Slow clap for the slow one at the back of the class, keep ’em coming sunbeam you’re doing great job! =D>
William Black wrote:
Slow
Glad you concede the argument.
FluffyKittenofTindalos
Glad you concede the argument.— William Black
Oh not in the slightest, but there really isn’t much point in trying to continue with someone who quite clearly can’t grasp the concept of analogy.
William Black
Glad you concede the argument.— FluffyKittenofTindalos
Oh not in the slightest, but there really isn’t much point in trying to continue with someone who quite clearly can’t grasp the concept of analogy.— William Black
Indeed, there’s not much point my arguing with someone who just posts nonsense and insults and never answers any points at all!
You have no argument, analogy-based or otherwise, you just make imperious demands (“wear a helmet – and oven gloves – because I say so”) and juvenile insults.
William Black wrote:Demazter
I’ve worked for fifteen years in an intensive care unit. The majority of serious brain injuries are sustained inside a car, if mandatory car helmets were introduced the NHS would save a fortune by reducing the amount of money they have to spend on people like me
As a health professional I’ve got a pretty good grasp of the research around cycling and helmet use. I don’t wear a helmet when I ride and neither do my partner or child. The risks outweigh the benefits – thats the part thats a no brainer.
Sara_H wrote:As a health
What are these risks? Genuine question.
Sara_H wrote:
I’ve worked for
Thank you Sarah_H! That’s exactly the sort of information we need here.
So what are the risks of
So what are the risks of wearing a helmet, then?
Maciej001 wrote:So what are
I’d almost certainly die of embarrassment if someone were to see me wearing one.
I get this one!
I get this one!:-)
William Black wrote:Demazter
This partner, did they see pedestrians with brain injuries? Do you bemoan the fact that pedestrians aren’t wearing helmets?
kie7077 wrote:
This partner,
Or indeed drivers and passengers?
http://www.drivingwithoutdying.com/
felixcat wrote:kie7077
Or indeed drivers and passengers?
http://www.drivingwithoutdying.com/— kie7077
Or indeed people who use bathrooms, where the most fatal head injuries occur, do people seriously use the shower without a helmet?
And. Incidentally. We never
And. Incidentally. We never use to wear seatbelt either. Do you object to that? Do you also object to booster seats?
We are human beings. We learn, we adapt. These are ways we have adapted to modern way of life to help protect ourselves.
Demazter wrote:And.
On balance I do object to seat belts for drivers (though not very strongly). Because it tends to increase the risk they impose on those outside the vehicle.
And can we please drop this silly comparison with seat-belts? Are the helmet-pushers all incapable of ever listening?
Demazter wrote:And.
We learn from evidence and statistics … of which there are none to support your argument.
The safest places to cycle (by a country-mile) are Holland and Denmark where only about 0.6% of cyclists wear helmets. We should do what they do. That’s proper ‘learning and adapting’ for you.
Joeinpoole wrote:
The safest
Be interesting to see what the difference in pedestrian related bike injuries are. I’ve been to holland and it was terrifying in city centres. On a us side there was no cars.
Long flat straight roads in the rest of the areas will account for lack of bike related injuries.
Demazter wrote:Joeinpoole
WHAT??? You found city centres in Holland “terrifying”? I have been to Holland many times and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You sound painfully ‘risk adverse’. Surprised you actually dare to get on a bike at all __ you’d be much safer all wrapped up in a nice 4×4 where you could also wear your helmet. Just in case.
Joeinpoole wrote:WHAT??? You
As a pedestrian. YES!! Bikes everywhere. No control or segregation. I assure you I am not risk adverse. Maybe you have been to the flowery holland where they have safety crisp packers.
Are you for real? How many
Are you for real? How many more people are you going to call morons?
How is a bag of crisps a safety device? How many safety standards does it pass?
It’s sad you can’t have a decent debate without insulting people. Or without giving a proper rationale.
You are probably one of those cyclists that ride in the middle of the road just to annoy other road users and give the rest of us a bad name.
I asked a genuine question and you called me a moron. I think you need to take a real look at who the moron is.
Demazter wrote:Are you for
Mate, quit whilst your sort of ahead and read all the previous posts about helmets, its constant name calling by both sides – i hold my hands upto this -. Just accept that no matter what you type there will always be someone who disagrees from both sides.
Quote:Mate, quit whilst your
I just don’t get why people have to be so rude to each other. I get that people are passionate about their opinions but there’s no need for abuse.
I need to check my bike insurance but I’d be interested to know if I was insured against injury caused by not wearing a helmet.
In the same way I wouldn’t be insured if I didn’t have my seat belt on in my car.
The comparison between seatbelt and helmet will always be there because they are both designed to prevent serious injury whilst using a mode of transport
Demazter wrote:
The
In one case the risks to the user are intrinsic to their own choice of transport mode, in the other the main risks come from the choices of others.
The main risk to cyclists is not that due to cycling, its due to motoring, whereas the risk on motorists is due to motorists. Your wording conceals this difference, which I suppose is why you word it like that.
Legally forcing someone to take precautions against a risk they impose on themselves is different from forcing them to take precautions against a danger created by others.
FluffyKittenofTindalos
When motorists use the extra protection that seat belts (and air bags etc.) give them to improve their performance instead of accepting the safety bonus, they increase the danger to vulnerable road users but not to themselves.
http://www.john-adams.co.uk/2009/09/23/open-letter-to-executive-director-of-pacts/
Adams shows that seatbelts increased the casualty rate for cyclists and pedestrians. This is now accepted by members of the PACTS.
(Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety )
They say “the clear reduction in death and injury to car occupants is appreciably offset by extra deaths among pedestrians and cyclists.”
Helmets do not impose extra risk on other road users to any extent.
I agree with your last paragraph.
Demazter wrote:Are you for
I was just throwing “moron” out there to see who would apply it to themself.
It’s common sense: is it going to hurt more or less if you bang your head into a brick wall wearing a bag of crisps or without? Have you tried it?
The International Crisp Hat Manufacturers Guild has a publicly available testing standard Smell B-90 in which they demonstrate that a pumpkin with a bag of crisps sellotaped to it will withstand a 25cm drop onto a variety of surfaces. At exactly 25cm the bag of crisps bursts.
I don’t know what else you’re looking for.
I hear the kids are using a thing called the internet, which has “search engines” on it, which can be used to find answers to Frequently Asked Questions.
Ush wrote:
I hear the kids
Yes. And we apply safety measures to this as well.
It’s nice to see you are grown up enough to have a proper debate.
Demazter wrote:Are you for
Irony injection for Demazter nurse.
I’m one of those cyclists who rides in the middle of the road, not to piss motorists off as I’m one of those too, but to assert my right to be there and for my own protection. It’s called taking the prime position or defensive cycling. Cyclists pay for the roads as well and have as much right to be there as any other person.
jova54 wrote:I’m one of those
I totally agree!
jova54 wrote:
I’m one of
There is a big difference between prime position and deliberately being obstructive. I am a cyclist and motorist. A cyclist first. And as a cyclist I can see why we are tarnished by the behaviour of a few.
But. That’s a serious digression.
Listening to what?
I
Listening to what?
I genuinely don’t understand what the issue is with wearing a helmet? I’ve asked for it to be explained but all I get is called a moron!
Demazter wrote:Listening to
Read one of the many existing threads on it.
Seriously, I don’t understand
Seriously, I don’t understand all you people.
I cannot think of any reason why helmets should not be required by law. I cannot think of a single reason why one would not want to wear a helmet (Oh, sorry, I can think of one: it will ruin your coiffure!). Not a single of the arguments above sounds reasonable for me. And I absolutely cannot comprehend the rage you are all expressing towards anyone who supports this!
The only argument you all give is the freedom: it’s your head so it’s your business, my injury, your brain and spinal cord, and so on. You argue that no one tells pedestrians to wear helmets, nor the drivers. But… have you noticed that drivers are required to wear safety belts, turn lights on when it gets dark, stick to speed limits (even of they don’t), not to text while driving (even if they do)? I assume it means you do not wear seat belts and do eat your healthy breakfast while driving? Have you noticed that construction workers wear helmets, high visibility jackets, harnesses, and so on? Is it their choice, you think? It is as if you were saying that everyone is against the little vulnerable cyclists, putting restrictions and rules, when everybody else is enjoying their freedom of choice? Bulls**t. No, it is the law. What I am saying is that there are rules in this world, and thank god for that! And you know, many, many of there regulations are there to make the world a little bit safer. You will say that drivers cause threats to others and cyclist only to themselves? What a bulls**t! If you fall of your bike in the middle of the road, don’t you cause threat to all others around you??
You say they should concentrate on improving the infrastructure instead of coming up with requirements for cyclists. How does one relate to the other?? As if it one either-or. Sure, infrastructure should be improved, but how does this make up for personal safety?? These are not alternatives, these are complementary issues. Besides, what do you mean by infrastructure? Cycle paths? Come on, cycle paths are necessary, but I bet most of you–proper road cyclists–would curse all the kids and ladies on their shopping bikes jamming the narrow cycle paths, when you don’t like going slower than 20mph. You are saying that making helmets compulsory affects these who cycle but have no jobs? Don’t give me that. You don’t care about them, you are roadies / racers, you care about the great joy riding a road bike gives you. You say that this forces people to spend money? Sure, I bet most of you ride bikes for thousand(s) quid, so spending another 30. Besides, if you can’t afford to buy petrol, or pay for the MOT, you don’t buy a car. And there are requirements, not choices. Sorry, but there are limitations. You say that once they force us to wear helmets, they won’t stop and force us to wear hi-viz, lights, and whatever. I hope they will! A set of lights and a hi-viz jacket is really a tiny cost comparing to not being seen at night! And then you will blame the motorist that he/she hasn’t looked properly, and it was his/her fault! We all use the same roads, so we should do our best to live on them together, as well as possible. You don’t like when the car does not leave you enough space, the driver doesn’t like when he/she cannot see others. Don’t you think that a stressed driver means just more threat, also to the cyclists?
Cycling forums are full of cyclists complaining about the bloody motorists, or infrastructure. Sure, drivers are quite often horrible, they never stick to speed limits, write text messages and do their make-up while driving, don’t look, don’t indicate change of direction, and are… well, horrible. And you want to be respected cyclists and road user? Then do whatever you can to deserve this. Every day I see drivers not using their indicators, and every day I see cyclists jumping red lights, riding in town with no hi-viz or lights with earphones dressed all black on their fixies, or speeding through pedestrian areas. And it pisses me off, because no wonder motorists don’t like us. Also, of course, I see many pedestrians jumping on the road without looking. Everyone has his/hers sins, but first think of your own.
You say there is no sound proof that helmets save lives, reduce number of casualties and serious injuries. So.. OK, you don’t mind small injuries. Fine by me. But I prefer not to get one of those either. And whatever can be done to improve road safety, should be done.
I imagine many of you are much more experienced, stronger road cyclists than I am, with much better bikes (and helmets), and I envy you. But you sound like: oh, I am so good, I don’t care about anything/anyone else, I am such a good rider, I can escape any danger. It’s all of you who make my life difficult. I am vulnerable and delicate on my bike, and you still want to out restrictions on me. You all talk about bikes being healthy and eco-friendly and still want to make my life harder. Oh, poor, poor me. And the police keep harassing me, but I am cyclist, don’t you see!? I am the good character! Reading your opinions, I also imagine that once you drive a care (and most of you probably do, besides cycling) you are one of those drivers who also thinks that he is such a great and experienced driver that it’s always the other ones fault, so you can keep speeding.
And I am not saying all this, because I have an accident a couple of months ago (it was the driver’s fault), and the helmet got crushed against the road surface, instead of my head. So thanks to this helmet I am possibly sitting here writing all this.
On the “immoral” Wiggle theme: they are a retailer, for god’s sake, so why should they not do whatever (they think) will bring them more revenue!? They are not a charity or some publicly funded institution, they exist to make money, what do you expect!? They used their own blog, expressed an opinion, you can have your own. What do all of you care what some shop says!? If you don’t like it, buy somewhere else, perhaps paying more, if you prefer. Why are they suddenly the devil, this is ridiculous! I don’t understand why they backed off (I understand–the stupid pressure from the media and all of you).
Maciej001 wrote:Seriously, I
You’ve almost got it. Feeling the wind in your hair is surely one of the main reasons to cycle. Maybe you’ve never experienced that pleasure? Go on _ take your life in your hands and try it (just the once mind)!
Do you really want/need a namby-pamby state to take all decisions for you and stop you potentially hurting yourself? Where should they stop? Should they ban smoking, drinking, fatty foods, sugary drinks, restrict all motor vehicles to 25mph? After all far more lives (including those of cyclists) would be saved by restricting motor vehicles to 25mph than making cyclists wear a ridiculous piece of foam on their heads.
I understand you are against
I understand you are against compulsory seat belts, for that matter, as an example. But maybe you are right, the helmet should be voluntary, since it only protects your head. But lights, hi-viz and stuff that makes you visible, should be law.
And yes, I think there should be (and are) regulations regarding food ingredients to make life safer and healthier. And I think this is a good thing.
What good is reducing speed limits, if drivers don’t stick to them? I raised this too. Sure, I’d love them to stick to them. By the way, can you imagine the buzz if someone would suggest that?;-)
Smoking is banned to some extent already, and is that such a bad thing?
It is not a stupid piece of foam. It saved my head. So tell me, why would you not wear one?
Maciej001 wrote:
What good is
Indeed. What good _is_ reducing speed limits when drivers don’t stick to them? That’s why speed limits alone are nowhere near enough and why you need real physical changes to road layout to make speeding impossible (a lot more speed cameras would be good though).
Heck, the police openly refuse to enforce them, so they are indeed of limited use.
Maciej001 wrote:It is not a
Basically because I’d already been cycling for nearly 30 years before Halfords started selling helmets. Even then they were only intended for mountain bike use because of the danger of stunts going wrong or crashing into trees at high speed.
Don’t forget that even professional road cyclists largely didn’t wear ‘proper’ helmets until it became compulsory for endorsed races in 2003 following the death of Andrey Kivilev. Must admit that if I were riding in a peleton at 40mph or descending at 70mph … I’d definitely wear a helmet. But I don’t.
For the type of cycling that I do, mainly recreational, and with the experience that I have (to hopefully sense potential danger ahead and take appropriate measures) I don’t feel that strapping a piece of foam to my head is of much benefit.
There’s a Strava segment in my area which covers a 30mph descent down a narrow, winding country road. I am truly staggered at some of the times being recorded on it. The road starts relatively straight and the bends all come towards the end of the segment. The road is nearly always wet at that point too due to run-off from the fields. I know that I can’t improve much on my time because I HAVE to apply the brakes before entering the blind bends. If I didn’t and there was a tractor in the road (or a boy-racer coming the other way) then I’d probably be dead. The only way possible that the quickest times are being recorded is by people going balls-out and presumably just hoping for the best. They are probably wearing helmets though.
The piece of foam you all
The piece of foam you all hate so much, saved my head at only 25mph, and though it was the driver’s fault, I thank god I had one. Simple. So helmets do improve safety.
Maciej001 wrote:The piece of
I once touched wheels and banged my head on the tarmac but luckily I was wearing a Festina cap. I urge all cyclists to wear a cap, even if Festina ones are hard to come by.
You make think your anecdote is more valid than mine, but it is not.
No, I don’t think mine is
No, I don’t think mine is more valid. But is equally, and if my helmet was cracked under the impact, then I assume my head would be. Probably there are different ways a head can hit the tarmac, I am glad your was the one that could be saved by the Festina cap.
Maciej001 wrote:No, I don’t
I think you will find that your skull is a lot tougher than a scrap of expanded polystyrene. Cracking is a failure mode for a cycle helmet. It is meant to absorb energy by being crushed.
I take it that you will join my Festina cap promotion group?
Sorry, crushed, I used the
Sorry, crushed, I used the wrong word. Anyway, it worked.
And I don’t plan to check how hard my skull is;-)
I would have to find one first… and see if I like the colour;-)
Maciej001 wrote:Sorry,
All you can say is that it worked in the same way my Festina cap worked. i.e. you survived.
You will be lucky to find a Festina cap, all nine riders were thrown off the 1998 TdF for drug issues, (as they say these days).
Two things:
1. Polystyrene
Two things:
1. Polystyrene absorbs energy by crushing. It absorbs very little however when it cracks. Indeed, if the polystyrene cracks, the helmet loses structural integrity and loses its ability to spread impact forces over more of the polystyrene where they can be absorbed by its crushing.
A good helmet has a hard, crack resistant outer shell, to hold the polystyrene shell together in an impact and and spread the forces, as a motorcycle helmet does. Based on my observations, most roadies in the UK wear the much flimsier soft-shell types.
2. This means that if your helmet cracked into pieces it actually *failed*. It was exposed to loads that exceeded what it was designed for.
Given two polystyrene helmets after a similar crash, one cracked to pieces and the other not, the *uncracked* helmet may very likely have absorbed *more* energy – the uncracked helmet showing more crush deformation would confirm this.
Also, note that while helmets help prevent some types of injuries, they also *increase* the risk of others (neck and rotational injuries, which can be quite bad for your brain). This is because helmets add significant width to the human head. Because of that width, some accidents will result in significant blows to the head (perhaps even cracked helmets) where the rider would otherwise not have received any significant blow.
Meta-studies suggest the additional injuries caused are commensurate with those saved, such that, population wide, there is negligible benefit to injuries from wearing helmets. (See Elvik 2011).
Joeinpoole wrote:Maciej001
Yes to all of the above and it would save the NHS millions.
@Maciej001
Enforcing
@Maciej001
Enforcing more-and-more restrictions on cyclists helps to deter anyone from cycling, and hence hugely lessens the chance of ever getting better infrastructure or better driving.
Its symbolic of car-supremacy and reinforces a culture of victim-blaming, which would likely lead to even worse driving.
Which do you think is better: Enforcing better male behaviour on the streets and prosecuting harrassers, or passing a law saying women must all wear burkas if they go outdoors so as not to ‘provoke’ men?
Do you think the latter is somehow totally unrelated to the former and that doing the latter would not in any way reduce the likelihood of doing the former?
Also – nobody is saying you can’t wear a helmet. I think many of us against a mandatory helmet law do actually wear one.
Also – why should cyclists have to collectively ‘earn’ respect? That’s like the argument that says black people can’t object to racism until every single one of them has become 100% law-abiding.
It’s not victim-blaming. It’s
It’s not victim-blaming. It’s caring about safety of citizens, no matter how pompous it sounds (and selling more helmets by Wiggle;-). I am not saying we should be required to wear full body armour. You may as why, since I am pro other laws. No, the laws must be reasonable, just as no-one wants drivers to wear helmets. But if wearing a safety belt in a car is OK, why is wearing a helmet not?
As I say, infrastructure and driving should be massively improved, but this is a different issue.
Why earn respect? Just as I said. We would love the drivers and pedestrians not to do stupid things which put us, cyclists in danger. And we “collectively” hate drivers for not doing so. So let’s not do the same thing. All I said was, and what I always do, always look at your own sins first, before you blame others.
Ah, the usual sound and fury
Ah, the usual sound and fury signifying nothing much.
If you feel better for wearing a magic hat, be my guest. But don’t insist that I wear one. Thanks. :H
I often wear a helmet when
I often wear a helmet when it’s dark or wet, or on long journeys, but not pottering to the shops on a sunny day. I would not make it compulsory because I know that many, especially young, would simply not cycle if they had to wear a helmet. Increased cycling would make it safer for all, and our priority should be to increase active travel to reduce the truly shocking death rate from lifestyle health illnesses such as obesity and diabetes.
I really think you can crack

I really think you can crack it this time, folks.
kcr wrote:
I really think you
Spell it out here. I don’t want to trawl through other threads. I want to read it here in the one I’m already posting in!
kcr wrote:
I really think you
Not a patch on these guys…
We’ve got a long way to go to catch them. Keep typing!
Sarah H could you enlighten
Sarah H could you enlighten me on your actual profession and what you have studied in relation to cycling and helmet use and how the risks outweigh the benefits of wearing one ?
I only ask so that some other person does not have a pop at you about making things up etc etc.
Some people here have
Some people here have complained about the endless nature of helmet threads.
Speaking for myself, I feel forced to counter what I see as faulty arguments in favour of helmets because I see a real risk that they will be made mandatory. It has after all happened elsewhere.
I don’t want to be forced to wear a helmet because I do not think they do any good.
Australia, where they are compulsory, has a cyclist casualty rate more then twice ours, and this did not reduce when helmets were mandated.
I know that many people here disagree with what I say above.
No one is suggesting that helmets should be banned. If you want to wear one, thats fine.
But don’t tell me I should wear one, or make claims for them which I think are demonstrably wrong, unless you are ready to hear my reasons for not wanting to wear one.
Yes, I was asking for reasons
Yes, I was asking for reasons not to wear one.
Even if they don’t reduce the number of deaths, they may help reducing other injuries. As mine did. So don’t tell me they aren’t any good.
Maciej001 wrote:Yes, I was
The study most quoted by helmet proponents uses a method, which applied to the statistics in the study shows that helmets reduce leg injuries!
This is the study which shows 85% effectiveness for helmets.
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1027.html
OK:-
You are more likely to
OK:-
You are more likely to hit your head in a crash if you are wearing a helmet due to it being bigger than your head.
If your head doesn’t hit the ground in the correct way you are more prone to rotational injuries of the neck and spine.
The biggest safety improvement for cyclists is more cyclists, people don’t like having to wear a helmet for an activity which is far far less dangerous than say golf, therefore less people cycle where compulsion is introduced, making it more dangerous for the rest of us.
This is probably down to the attitudes of cyclists or drivers but statistics say that cyclist wearing a helmet are 14% more likely to be involved in a crash.
There’s more if you can be bothered to look it up, try cyclehelmets.org for the anti helmet view although it’s just as biased as the pro compulsion lobby. I often wear one, sometimes don’t, but at least I have taken the time to find out the facts and make an informed choice myself rather than trying to enforce a misinformed view on others. The main argument against compulsion is that cycling does not pose a serious risk of head injury.
Seriously? I am less likely
Seriously? I am less likely to hit my head? Going over the handlebars, my head will stop the inch or so away from the road, the thickness of the helmet? Come on.
So if my head in the helmet hits the road the right way, it will save me, if the wrong way, it won’t. Maybe. But if my head without the helmet hits the road, it doesn’t make a difference which way it hits.
Is cycling far less dangerous then, let’s say, golf?
So you give me these arguments against helmets and you still wear one, usually?
Maciej001 wrote:Seriously? I
You asked, these are not necessarily my own views. As I understand it most crashes at speed result in the rider tumbling along the ground rather than hitting the tarmac head first, which can potentially lead to the situation where the helmet is more likely to catch the ground than an unprotected noggin, which in turn can cause it to twist the neck violently. Personally although I can accept this I would prefer to be wearing one if I crash as I think this particular set of circumstances is quite unlikely, therefore my decision of whether or not to wear one is related to route, distance and choice of bike, no need if I ride a shopper half a mile down a Sustrans path but if I am commuting ten miles into Manchester on a road bike then I’ll definately have one on, along with other bike specific gear.
If you break down statistics in a certain way golf has more fatalities per total hours of participation than any other sport, most are heart failure but there are also occasional lightning strikes and Darwin Award winners, I know this is true because I read it on the internet.
The reason these debates go
The reason these debates go on endlessly is because some people seem to think that:
helmets may protect your head, I can’t think of a reason not to wear a helmet = helmets should be made compulsory.
Some fairly obvious reasons why not:
You may not see any reason not to wear a helmet, but lots and lots of people do meaning they give up cycling.
This in turn increases the risks of cycling, there is a lot of research showing that cycling risk is inversely proportional to the number of cyclists on the road.
There is not a lot of good research to show helmets reduce risk. On of the first studies purporting to show reduced risk here in NZ merely showed that , suprise, suprise, vastly reducing the number of cyclists by imposing compulsory helmet law reduced the number of cyclist admissions to hospital.
One of the key and seemingly overlooked reasons why helmets may not increase safety is because casual cyclists who do not particularly want to wear a helmet, tend to make no effort to wear the helmet correctly (ie loose straps, helmet on back of head). There was a massive campaign for many years to try and change this attitude here in NZ, but it has been entirely ineffective. It is also extremely common here to see people (particularly young boys) with their helmet clipped onto their handlebars. In short, you can force people to carry a helmet, but this in no way translates into effective use of helmets anyway, regardless of whether they are actually worn.
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/cycle-network-and-route-planning/img/3-3-novice-cyclist.jpg
typical NZ helmet wearer pictured on NZTA website
The bit that I don’t get is
The bit that I don’t get is how so many of the ‘pro-helmet’ cyclists almost invariably appear to have had near-death occurrences that apparently were only alleviated by their use of their precious helmets.
I’ve been cycling for nearly 50 years ( and my father for 50 years before that), with neither of us ever having used a helmet. Strangely, in all that time, neither of us have ever experienced one of these “if I hadn’t been wearing a helmet I’d have been dead” moments.
What’s going on here? Does the wearing of a helmet induce cyclists to take absurd risks or what?
Joeinpoole wrote:What’s going
Yes
FatFreddie wrote:Joeinpoole
No, not absurd risks.
The protection given by a helmet is marginal. This is accepted by most helmet believers. ( the 85% figure for protection is only usede by the most rabid and ill informed compulsionists)
In any trip there are many moments when a slight misjudgement might cause an accident. Should I take this corner abit more slowly, in case there is gravel on the road? It looks a bit icy, there could possibly be black ice so perhaps I should take it a bit easier. Is this gap in the traffic large enough to pull out? etc.etc.
If one believes the seatbelt and airbags, or the helmet, increase the safety margin one may be tempted to take a slightly bigger risk.
Accidents are rare.
The change in risk assessment required to negate any safety given by a helmet is very small.
felixcat wrote:FatFreddie
No, not absurd risks.
The protection given by a helmet is marginal. This is accepted by most helmet believers. ( the 85% figure for protection is only usede by the most rabid and ill informed compulsionists)
In any trip there are many moments when a slight misjudgement might cause an accident. Should I take this corner abit more slowly, in case there is gravel on the road? It looks a bit icy, there could possibly be black ice so perhaps I should take it a bit easier. Is this gap in the traffic large enough to pull out? etc.etc.
If one believes the seatbelt and airbags, or the helmet, increase the safety margin one may be tempted to take a slightly bigger risk.
Accidents are rare.
The change in risk assessment required to negate any safety given by a helmet is very small.— Joeinpoole
Why then do helmet proponents make (very common) statements like “I would never ride my bike without wearing a helmet”? Or why do they berate me for not wearing a helmet as though I am taking a massive risk? (answer – they need to validate their own decision process).
Surely, if they thought that helmets made only a small difference they wouldn’t have such a binary attitude.
I think you grossly underestimate how much protection people believe helmets provide.
FatFreddie wrote:
I think you
It is not so much that helmet users grossly overestimate the protection a helmet gives: I was pointing out that it does not take much change in behaviour to wipe out any small protection given.
If the protection is grossly overestimated we would be seeing noticeable increases in casualty numbers.
The data show that casualty rate change is very small in either direction, though there is sometimes a small increase.
This is where it all started
This is where it all started for NZ:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4031829/Aarons-tragedy-spurred-Helmet-Ladys-crusade
Her son had a crash and got brain damaged. She became a crusader for compulsory helmets touring the country and shocking kids (and parents) into wearing helmets.
Ironically, she wanted to protect the nations children, but ultimately harmed generations.
Quote:The reason these
That’s exactly it.
The problem is that there is no accurate data to go on.
You can’t go back and recreate exactly the same crash with and without a helmet and see what your injuries are each time. So all you’ve got is anecdotal evidence of the “I hit a tree and my helmet cracked but I’m still here therefore it must have saved my life” type. With respect, anyone posting stuff like that – sod off, you’re doing the debate no good. It’s not about one incident with you, it’s about the whole big picture.
Who enforces this kind of stuff and at what cost? What happens to cycle hire schemes? I use Boris Bikes whenever I’m in London – if I had to carry a helmet round with me in order to use it, I’d just get the bus or tube instead (or alternatively, what is the cost of equipping every Boris Bike with a “hire helmet”?). It’s impractical and unworkable on so many levels and detracts from the true argument.
Here’s some proper data though:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/woman-injured-by-lorry-at-oxford-circus-is-third-cyclist-hit-in-two-days-in-london-8925865.html
Three cyclists killed or seriously injured on London’s streets by lorries/coaches within 2 days.
Is the answer:
a) better infrastructure, getting rid of lorries at peak times, better education for all road users
b) give all cyclists helmets
Clue: it’s not (b)
Whilst i always wear my
Whilst i always wear my helmet i dont agree with compulsion as it would be nigh on impossible to regulate.
However whilst out in the car this morning there was an article on radio 5 about Hugo Lloris and the concussion he received the other day. There was a professor of neuro science and a consultant from a head trauma dept and both said that if you receive concussion (which most cyclists will get if they crash and bang their heads) then if you get hit again within 2 – 3 weeks then it can cause major internal brain problems.
Now this conversation was not about cyclists but i thought i would mention it to see if anyone else heard it and their opinions.
Every time someone mentions
Every time someone mentions helmets, the same old stuff gets trotted out by…
…oh, never mind, I can’t be bothered.
Move on. Nothing to see here.
ColT wrote:Every time someone
Are you familiar with John Adams’s work? Do you know it all already? Do you understand risk homeostasis?
I suppose you have made up your mind and will not change it.
felixcat wrote:ColT
Are you familiar with John Adams’s work? Do you know it all already? Do you understand risk homeostasis?
I suppose you have made up your mind and will not change it.— ColT
Nope you’ve lost me there. I’m an art historian.
Careful before you make assumptions, my friend. The point is precisely the opposite to what you are supposing; I have not made up my mind and will happily change it as and when incontrovertible evidence is presented one way or the other.
What I am getting at is that each time the H word comes up we get the same old stuff:
– anecdotal evidence about how ‘my helmet saved my life’. It may well have done, but there is no way of knowing this, so why keep trotting out this kind of information. I’ve previously cited evidence about people wearing hard hats on building sites and the increase in the occurrence of head banging incidents (head made bigger etc, etc.) to illustrate the point.
– rabid pro vs rabid anti helmet use. Let’s face it, the scientists and experts cannot agree, so why do so many spring up on some forum trying to berate/belittle others for not agreeing with their particular stance? By all means have an opinion, but keep it to yourself unless there is incontrovertible evidence. (See above re experts unable to agree.)
– the dropping a rock on a bare head vs helmeted argument. Meaningless.
– the perpetuation of the primacy of vehicle use. i.e. this is what demonisation of cyclists – with or without helmets – contributes to each time this comes up.
It is really unhelpful for we cyclists to be fighting amongst ourselves on this. Every post could simply be redirected at getting drivers to take more care and/or getting certain idiot cyclists to engage their brains.
For what it’s worth, I wear a helmet when training, largely because I have to wear one when racing. As a design engineer explained to me, in the event of a fall/accident, a helmet may save you, it may cause you injury, but most likely it will make no difference at all. My concern is that people continue to bang on about compulsory helmets as if they are always going to save your life.
In the end, what I find most exasperating in this debate (hence my initial ‘can’t be bothered’) is that so many seem able to accept that they could be wrong. I’d love to see this ‘evidence’ I’ve been alluding to, but I shan’t be holding my breath.
ColT wrote:Every time someone
There is a bit of a contradiction here. You would “love to see this evidence”, but you can’t be bothered to look for it. It is wise for you to not hold your breath.
You are sure, without being bothered to look, that there is nothing to see.
I asked whether you were familiar with Adams’s work because I thought it might be helpful, if it was new to you.
felixcat wrote:ColT
There is a bit of a contradiction here. You would “love to see this evidence”, but you can’t be bothered to look for it. It is wise for you to not hold your breath.
You are sure, without being bothered to look, that there is nothing to see.
I asked whether you were familiar with Adams’s work because I thought it might be helpful, if it was new to you.— ColT
Forgive me, but you are making assumptions again and, dare I say, missing my point. I have done plenty of looking, thanks. I put together a pros and cons dossier for the Royal Mail (a temporary employer while finishing my thesis) and concluded that – and forgive me for repeating myself – there is no incontrovertible evidence either way. The experts do not agree, so why should the ramblings and rantings of cycling laymen be of any greater worth?
Clearly, I wasn’t being specific enough for you, but the point I was making was that I couldn’t be bothered with countering the same old same old that crops up every time the helmet debate hits this site. That said, on balance, I can be bothered and I do care, but I do despair at the (often) really unhelpful nonsense that I force myself to read on here.
Is that a more acceptable response or am I still contradicting myself?
Thanks for the clarification.
Thanks for the clarification. I did not mean to offend.
I see the problem of contradictory evidence as there being a conflict between whole population studies and case controlled studies.
The case controlled studies depend upon the groups being compared having the same characteristics, which they quite evidently don’t. None helmet wearers tend towards being a different sort of cyclist to wearers. Attributing the whole of the difference in accident outcomes to the wearing or not of helmets is wrong. This is why the study method and figures can be used to show the evidently ridiculous conclusion that helmets protect against leg injuries.
But you must know this.
The whole population studies in the real life experiments in NZ or Oz seem to me to be much more reliable.
Why do you conclude that the two types of study are of equal validity?
Risk homeostasis seems to me to provide a feasible explanation of why helmets don’t reduce the casualty rate in helmet madating countries.
That is why I asked about Adams.
John, point taken mate, i
John, point taken mate, i missed a lot of the article but i just thought i would mention it because some people think that just banging your head is a risk worth taking for not wearing a helmet.
I just wanted to put it across how a couple of simple bumps can cause problems and it came from head trauma experts and not anecdotal.
Its everyone’s choice though and hopefully it will stay that way.
It makes me laugh that I,
It makes me laugh that I, just this week, bought £400 of high explosives and no one ever says anything about banning firework sales.
Get a life, worry about yourself, if someone falls off and dies when a helmet could have saved them then that is their lookout. They will be printing ‘open other end’ on bottles of coke and banning certain nuts in their shells because if you eat too many shells you will get poisoned next! Oh, wait a minute…
Every piece of legislation costs a large amount of money. Do you know that this week Parliament debated the sugar content in Jam because some numpty was concerned that the minimum sugar requirement had changed? Seriously, 100,000’s of people relying on food banks and that’s what the politicians were discussing.
Get over it, wear a helmet if you want, don’t if you don’t want.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisd
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/31/newsid_2505000/2505871.stm
Playing devils advocate here but substitute ‘Motorist” for ‘Cyclist’ and ‘seatbelt’ for ‘helmet’. Anything sound familiar ; 0 )
Nzlucas
Certainly does sound familiar.
There is as much unsupported assertion in favour of seat belts as of helmets now.
In the run up to the parliamentary vote there was a lot of controversy.
John Adams of UCl looked at the results of the seat belt laws in those countries where they were already compulsory. He found that seat belts did not save lives. The DoT tried to ignore him.
“However within the Department of Transport, the promoters of the seat belt bill, my study had raised concerns. The Department commissioned a critique of my report by J E Isles. His report examined evidence from eight European countries (a subset of the 18 examined in my report) that had passed seat belt laws. He concluded that a law making the wearing of seat belts compulsory “has not led to a detectable change in road death rates”. For promoters of the bill this was an inconvenient truth. The Isles report was dated April 1981, more than three months before the parliamentary debate that led to the passage of the legislation. But it was suppressed. It was not published, and was not allowed to inform that debate. The Isles Report did not see the light of day until its existence was disclosed by New Scientist in an article published on 7 February 1985 – more than three years too late.”
Isles agreed with Adams but his work, though commissioned by the DoT was suptressed because it was not what they wanted to hear.
http://www.john-adams.co.uk/2007/01/04/seat-belt-legislation-and-the-isles-report/
There is much more here on seat belts. Read what he has to say on the record of seat belts since legislation.
That belts have cost the lives of cyclists is now agreed by the Pacts. See my post above.
If it’s true that mandatory
If it’s true that mandatory helmet use in NZ Australia has led to a define in cyclist numbers, then I would welcome it here in London. There are way too many idiots on bikes undertaking me, trucks, buses; sailing past red lights and crossings and generally exercising their choice to be anti social buffoons.
I miss the good old days when there were very few of us cycling and no way near the number of clueless accidents waiting to happen.
Please, please make helmets compulsory.
As a cyclist, car driver,
As a cyclist, car driver, sometime deliver van driver, motorcyclist and pedestrian. I believe that I can see a lot of the issues that appear in these posts from a range of perspectives. There are good and bad road users in all of these camps – just as there are loonies and unreasonable people.
On the subject of crash helmets… As a motorcyclist I am required by law to wear one. Easy to enforce: if the police see me not wearing one I get a fine, simple. They are not nice to wear, hot in summer, they limit your vision and hearing. It would be tempting not to wear one every now and then, but we aren’t given that option. Common sense should be a persuasive argument fit wearing a helmet but
there isn’t actually any evidence that crash helmets save lives and prevent injuries. They are big heavy things so instead of fracturing your skull by hitting your head, your neck is more at risk of being broken.
I’m afraid that cyclists (myself included) will just have to accept helmets when the powers that be decide they will make them compulsory. There is no point in bleating on about freedom to choose or the “right” to make your own mind up. I doubt that cycle helmets are heavy enough to create any hazards (unlike motorcycle helmets) mine certainly isn’t. There are however many far more obvious ways that cyclists can make themselves and other road users safer.
I know my helmet saved my
I know my helmet saved my skull so I’m going to carry on wearing one; I know from the damage to my bike and clothing the forces involved in my crash, I was lucky to walk away but I did, thanks Specialized.
I know my helmet saved my
I’ve been in an accident where I was able to roll so taking the damage on my clothing and the skin of my back rather than my head and neck. If I’d have been wearing a helmet I may have suffered more head or neck injury, and may even have come away saying I was “saved” by my shattered helmet. Interestingly the small scratch to my head would have counted as a “head injury” in some of the statistics bandied around in helmet debates. (I did regularly practice Judo at the time, so was used to rolling safely if unexpectedly catapulted towards the ground. This may have helped in my case.)
Helmets are not rated to protect against the kind of collisions you’ll get in a road traffic accident, or a fall at speed.
That said, I do wear a helmet. It’s especially useful in this weather to keep my head warm and dry. It has a reflective “Night Vision” shower cap on it. I just don’t worry if I’m not wearing it for some reason. I’d rather they not become law. Culture is having the desired effect anyway. Some people don’t like them and it’s better to have people cycling.
I think my biggest reason to avoid collision, as well as the inconvenience, would be damage to my limbs.
I bought a cycling helmet and
I bought a cycling helmet and on the paperwork in the box was a sheet of paper which said ‘This helmet will not protect you in the event of a road accident.’ so what is the use of wearing one ? B-)
176 comments on here! Have we
176 comments on here! Have we solved the helmet debate yet then?
Regardless of your view on
Regardless of your view on making them a legal requirement, I’m surprised to hear people say helmets don’t make you any safer. Some even suggest they put you more at risk due to altered behaviour of drivers and /or cyclists.
There may be some studies that have shown this effect on behaviour to be real, statistics may even make the case for helmet-wearing far from clear cut, contrary to what ROSPA etc al. state.
However, it strikes me that the above people on this forum are attempting to justify their own choice not to wear a helmet. By referencing statics you can generally make the facts appear to support your argument
But the fact is, we live in an unpredictable world. relying on statistics and assumptions about human psychology will not be enough when the driver makes an error and hits you. Or when you come off unexpectedly. in a proportion of these accidents you will hit your head. And in a proportion of these head impacts the helmet will lessen the damage to your head.
Cycling on roads with motorists has an element of risk attached to it. Some of that risk you can control. Some you cannot. Everyone has to evaluate that risk for themselves. Wearing a helmet lessens the risk to some degree. Wearing a helmet is a personal choice and I think it should remain this way.
700c wrote: … Or when you
What is wrong with you helmet-wearing types that makes you keep falling off your bikes? What particularly amazes me is the matter-of-fact way you describe such events as if they were entirely normal and routinely encountered multiple times per day/week/month.
Why don’t you just look where you are going and ride at a speed appropriate to the circumstances rather than strapping a piece of foam on your head? Then you won’t “come off unexpectedly”. It’s not difficult.
Joeinpoole wrote:700c wrote:
ha! Clearly you have stronger views than me on the subject. I advocate personal choice, but if wearing helmet makes me a ‘type’, then fair enough..
Anyway, the point I was making was that humans are fallible and error prone. Whether you drive a car or cycle, walk, whatever. It’s my belief that a helmet affords some protection in the event of being hit on the head, whether an impact is caused by me or someone else. The level of risk posed by hazards that are out there must be assessed by each individual and of course people will come to different conclusions and that’s fine.
To all those who have
To all those who have ‘crashed’ had ‘offs’ and have claimed that the helmet saved them. What have you learnt through your experience?
I remember years ago being ambushed by some black ice. Bike went one way while I slid for thirty feet on my arse. After that I treated roads like kid gloves in icey conditions. Ride according to the road conditions. Ride defensively. Don’t over cook corners. Don’t bomb down hills your not familiar with. It’s easy.
It amazes me the number of cyclists here that are prone to falling off. In the last 7 years I have covered probably 45,000 miles. In that time I have come off twice. Once when a pedestrian stepped out in front of me. The other when a couldn’t up clip at a set of lights.
It’s easy. Learn not to fall off your bike. And if you are going to fall, learn how to fall.
I have only had one fall in
I have only had one fall in many years of cycling and due to the head injury can’t remember how it happened- front wheel may have slipped off the edge of the tarmac into a gravel gulley. A cracked helmet in my shed is testimony to the severity, a CT showed a subarachnoid haemorrhage, as well as fractures into double figures. I am now cycling again, this time on a stable hybrid with big tyres, at a slightly slower speed. And with a new helmet (personal choice).
Forester wrote:I have only
This is not a debate about whether helmets can make a difference to an individual who has an accident and hits their head, this is a debate about making helmet wearing mandatory and criminalising those that don’t wear helmets.
If you make helmet wearing mandatory the population’s overall health will suffer – obesity, heart disease, stoke, cancer, these are the big killers, if you deter people from one of the easiest safest forms of exercise, then you are condemning some of them to early deaths. The deaths from non exercise would be 30x – 100x that of the deaths from head injuries. And another thing, all this over-reaction about helmets is also scaring people off of cycling, regardless of whether they would wear a helmet when cycling, it is very wrong.
I had a nasty accident, my head hit the tarmac damn hard, I was knocked unconscious and like someone else’s relative was mentioned on this thread, was dragged off the road to safety, I wasn’t wearing a helmet, I’m not brain damaged, I’m not dead. And this is all irrelevant because anecdotal evidence means nothing and whether or not helmets protect peoples heads is besides the point – the point which I made in the previous paragraph.
Pedestrians also have accidents, they are at the same risk from head injury, why is it that no-one is demanding they wear helmets, shouldn’t we also criminalise pedestrians that foolishly choose not to wear helmets?
I defy anyone to read this report (fully) and still support law on the issue:
http://www.ctc.org.uk/sites/default/files/file_public/cycle-helmets-evidencebrf.pdf
The compulsory helmet law
The compulsory helmet law here in New Zealand was introduced after a batshit crazy ‘helmet lady’ went around all the schools after her son was hit by a car (note ‘hit by car’ not ‘hit car’) berating the kids about how dangerous it was to cycle.
All the helmet law has done is increase the number of cyclists hit by cars. Cyclist numbers never recovered from the drop when the law was introduced in 1994 and the number of injury causing accidents has doubled.
It’s interesting that the first nationwide survey on the effectiveness of compulsory helmets for children in the U.S. found that in States with a compulsory law, head injuries dropped by 15%, but cyclist numbers dropped by 9%. The kids that stopped riding chose to take up other wheeled activities like: roller blades and scooters and the change in the total number of head injuries was statistically insignificant.
A paper in the New Zealand Medical Journal attributes an additional 54 deaths annually from the loss of health benefits as a result of the drop in people cycling. This is compared to ~ 10 cyclists and 50 pedestrians killed by cars and trucks on the road each year.
The main safety impact of the helmet law has been 20 years of lack of investment in cycling infrastructure due to helmets being the only safety intervention. The financial costs are likely to be considerable as Auckland is now the world’s (TomToms) 15th most congested city, which our bloated Transport Minister is intending to solve with $20 Billion worth of motorways.
It’s actually refreshing to see Christchurch intending to be a pedestrian and cyclist friendly city as part of the rebuild and the plans for that are pretty stunning.
If the govt make it
If the govt make it compulsory i’m going to switch off my laptop for a day or two because i dont think it could take the strain if i logged onto the road.cc forum !
I wear one, i look like a numpty, it does not make me feel any safer nor will it stop a runaway car if i try to stop it with my head nor does it make me think i can go even faster now i’m wearing me lid. What it does do though is IF i come off and bang my noggin on the road, street furniture etc it MIGHT stop me getting a concussion or a split head and thats enough for me to wear one.
stumps wrote:
I wear one, i
That’s exactly what I say about the bag of crisps sellotaped to my head! Some people think it makes me look silly, but I don’t care.
And, exactly like a helmet it’s not designed to stop me getting a concussion, and the manufacturers are clear to point this out. But it MIGHT stop me getting a concussion.
So I wear it. And I can’t understand why other people do not. Fools.
And I get to have a snack at the end of the journey.
Personally i cant believe
Personally i cant believe people would give up cycling because the law is changed, they obviously are not keen cyclists and to insinuate that the countries overall health will fall is on a par with people saying a helmet will save your life.
If it becomes law you will still get thousands of people cycling without a lid because it would be nigh on impossible to regulate and to honest we, as Police due to govt cutbacks, dont have the man power to effectively regulate it.
stumps wrote:Personally i
Whether you can believe it or not, helmet laws do reduce cycling. Why this is so is speculation, but the figures given upthread show that the miles cycled in Oz and NZ reduced after the law.
In New South Wales 23000 cyclists were fined in two years. From 2000 to 2003, South Australian cyclists paid AUD500,000 in fines for not wearing helmets. The Australian police have no problem with catching helmetless cyclists.
TL;DR: Keen cyclists cycle
TL;DR: Keen cyclists cycle anyway; we want to get EVERYONE cycling
Keen cyclists cycle whatever happens. Heck, if you legislated that cyclists have to wear full body armour, you’d still get people on the weekend trying to beat the strava record for going up box hill while wearing 25kg of medieval kit. Obviously, seeing as we’re modern people, you have to imagine it spray painted in dayglo vomit green, and with a decorative reflective stickers.
This is about encouraging cycling FOR EVERYONE. Look at all those drivers (always drivers, hardly ever passengers) you pass in the queues in central London (or even relatively rural Hertfordshire – rush hour traffic here is atrocious). Look at the people waiting for a bus, or trying to cram onto an already overcrowded tube.
A huge proportion of them(*) could do their journey on a bike, and feel elated and get some exercise (not too much, mind, you don’t *have* to get sweaty on a bike). When I get on my proper bike, I have the full gear – SCREAMING dayglo wear, BRIGHT lights, helmet, etc. But that’s for serious journeys. When I potter around London on a Boris bike, I don’t (although I usually have an extra – bright – light on my bag, just to make sure I can get a laugh in court when the driver says “I didn’t see him”).
Mandating helmets will do bugger all to improve cycling safety. Few cyclists die of head injuries (*) that could have been avoided by helmets. Mandating helmets will dramatically reduce utility cycling – not sporting cycling. It would basically kill cycle hire schemes. You have to get from A to B in London? The tube would take 40 minutes of discomfort, a Boris bike 20 minutes of pleasant exercise – but you forgot to strap a lid to your bag…
(*) looking at the stats, the majority of car journeys are incredibly short.
@John Stevenson, thanks for
@John Stevenson, thanks for you’re considered and detailed reply, you raise interesting points
If the wearing of a helmet to protect against impact is undermined by altered behaviour of others which puts the wearer more at risk, then this is a separate issue which has to be tackled through education and enforcement. It is perverse situation where the cyclist feels forced to remove some physical protection because drivers are more likely to break the law when the cyclist is wearing it! But I do accept we live in the real world and everyone will evaluate risk differently.
logically a helmet must provide a measure of protection against impact, considering for a moment the physics, independent of external factors such as driver behaviour.
As I said, everyone must – and does -evaluate risks themselves. Personally I will not rely on a potential effect of ‘lack-of-helmet’ causing poor, or illegal driving around me. Because I see the helmet as protection against the unexpected, which you cannot otherwise legislate for.
Most drivers do not set out deliberately to hit you and certainly you wouldn’t plan on falling off, but it’s the unexpected that is likely to result in a head impact. In that situation, I’d rather be wearing some head protection. That is all..
700c wrote:
logically a
Logically: a helmet provides a longer lever on the head and spinal column.
Empirically: no reduction in serious head injuries are recorded in helmet. wearing populations.
Empirically: helmet wearing populations have lower levels of cycling.
Empirically: pedestrians suffer roughly the same proportion of head injuries.
PS @John Stevenson I am not
PS @John Stevenson I am not trying to change anybody’s mind with a ‘hand-waving appeal’, I’m not sure why you thought I was -please do what you want. I know some people think helmet-wearers are diametrically opposed to non-helmet-wearers. We really aren’t, I’m sure we all want the same thing -to be able to cycle safely on the road.
Wearing a helmet shouldn’t be
Wearing a helmet shouldn’t be a law, not because I’m against them, on the contrary I wear one EVERY time I ride a bike.
I just don’t want it to be the final straw that makes Mrs Plodasalongtotheshops start using the car instead.
The decline in bike users in countries where helmet use is mandatory (and enforced) is well documented (and a bit tragic really given the health benefits of having a bit of fitness in your routine) and serves as a warning to those who want it made law.
The most tragic thing is not governments imposing it as a law, it’s that humans shun wearing a safety item for vanity reasons and use it as an excuse for not riding a bike…
If you don’t want to wear a helmet that’s your own choice but I’ll keep wearing mine and thanking it for the numerous time I’m convinced it has protected my head.
I wear 1 now and it isnt the
I wear 1 now and it isnt the law. I will wear 1 if it becomes the law and I couldnt give a monkies either way. I wear my lid because I feel it adds some form of protection if I am unlucky enough to crash.
End of
I think there’s more to be
I think there’s more to be done by manufacturers and government to test helmets to higher standards and to require higher standards to be met in the first place. It’s quite possible this could account for varying reports on their effectiveness.
The empirical facts quoted by @Ush, above, are only useful in the helmet debate if you can demonstrate cause and effect (comparing across different populations etc introduces a lot of variables), so conducting real life tests in identical conditions, some with helmets, some without, would do it, however that would be illegal, so perhaps crash test dummies would be a start…
Again, everyone is free to choose, but I’d rather not take a decision about wearing a helmet based on uncertainty of their level of protection – I would still say better safe than sorry, but that’s just me
As for suggesting their action as a lever on the spine outweighs any benefit in reducing direct impact on the head – well I am surprised the manufacturers are still in business and have not been sued for millions! I don’t think this is the reality, but again, we lack proper tests to prove this, don’t we?
@700C
Helmet manufacturers
@700C
Helmet manufacturers have never claimed that their helmets reduce serious head injuries. Never. In fact, if you read the label inside your new Snell-B90 tested helmet you’ll probably see a statement to the contrary.
Good luck sueing anyone when there’s basically no evidence that helmets do anything besides take money out of the pocket of the gullible. Has anyone been sued for selling homeopathic medicine in the UK?
Helmets: homeopathy for the head
I’m happy to offer you a
I’m happy to offer you a simple lesson in GCSE physics and then an even shorter lesson in probability. Whether you decide to wear a helmet or not will then up to you. Legislation will have no effect on these lessons at all – decide for yourself.
It’s all about the chances of a helmet saving you from damage, which may be temporary, permanent or fatal compared to the identical scenario you encounter without a helmet.
If we removed the seatbelt legislation tomorrow, would you drive without wearing your seat belt?
msfergus wrote:I’m happy to
My thoughts exactly regards the seatbelt ruling.
Back to the topic at hand though…
I find it curious at the amount of negativity towards helmets in the posts above…When out riding I very rarely see a cyclist NOT wearing a helmet these days, so clearly if it were to become law to wear a helmet we are already conforming. Well apart from the cyclists who are too cool for school
One of the consequences of
One of the consequences of criminalising a healthy activity is that it’s advisable to wear a helmet to protect yourself in the subsequent Police chase.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9380972/Cop-not-guilty-of-assault-after-running-into-cyclist
FML why are you lot arguing
FML why are you lot arguing about the effectiveness of helmets, that is completely beside the f**king point. X(
This is a debate about making helmets mandatory.
This not a debate about whether YOU should wear a helmet, this is a debate about making helmets compulsory for everybody.
I am not against helmets.
I am not against you wearing a helmet.
I am not against me voluntarily wearing a helmet.
I don’t disagree that helmets might lessen your head injury if you have an accident.
I am against making helmet wearing compulsory.
Being against helmet compulsion does not equal being against helmets.
If you’re arguing for mandatory helmet wearing among cyclists then you should also be arguing for mandatory helmet wearing by pedestrians – pedestrians have more head injuries than cyclists, if you believe that helmets reduce head injuries and wish to demand laws then try demanding that pedestrians wear helmets. No? Why not?
I don’t give a crap if you, your mate or your relative had an accident and were wearing a helmet, it’s irrelevant, what is relevant is that promoting helmets makes people think that cycling is very unsafe – it isn’t. By doing this people are being put off of cycling – this does the population as a whole a massive disservice, the negative health effects due to non-cycling massively outweigh any benefits of helmets by over thirty to one.
Is there anyone here who supports helmet wearing law for cyclists but not pedestrians – why don’t you support helmet law for pedestrians – they are suffering more head injuries than cyclists?
kie7077 wrote:FML why are you
Rather than getting so angry on a forum get out there and do something about it then. Fight the cause you appear to believe in so strongly
My observation was due to the
My observation was due to the amount of riders I see riding with a helmet as opposed to those who dont points to my opinion that a law wouldnt change much. If you already use your bike to get to work etc and a law comes in saying you must wear a helmet, would you stop riding your bike and jump in a car? Some how I think probably not.
Your comment regards wristbands lets you and all of your observations down.
gareth2510 wrote:My
Most of the people I see wearing helmets and hi viz seem to cycle in the gutter rather than take the road or hop up onto the foot path. I actually had another cyclist tell me off for using primary. Meanwhile he had been cycling on the yellow lines!!
Edit – should have made it clearer they will hop on to the footpath rather than take the road
gareth2510 wrote:My
You don’t need to think. You need to look at places who already have done it. Large numbers of people did. Evidence over-rules what you *think*
Flippin ek the same old crap
Flippin ek the same old crap yet again I’m off to have a crap its going to be a lot more fun than trawling through the same old arguments and rants again, but before I go here’s my 10 penneth aka rant.
Get used to the idea folks, seat belt are compulsory so are motor cycle helmets, eventually so will cycle helmets!
WHY because people seem to think its everybody else’s fault when they have an accident ITS YOUR LIFE be responsible for it, assume every motorist is out to get you! That’s how I ride my bike and my motorcycle and funnily enough I drive my car the same as well. Is it going to stop some dozy tit pulling out in front of you NO but if your ready then maybe you have a chance to slow, avoid or get off before impact and wearing a helmet might save your life. I agree when a 32 ton truck turns left over you even wearing a car probably isn’t going to save your life
Large vehicles have blind spots remember it and live.
People make mistakes, cannot be bothered or are just crap at controlling there vehicle remember that and live.
Do I agree with compulsory helmet laws no, will it happen? Probably if people don’t start to take responsibility for there actions and I mean vehicle drivers and cyclists, if not then the government will.
Rant over you can all wake up now and I’m off as I really need a crap B-)
sodit wrote:Flippin ek the
It sounds like you’ve already gotten rid of all of it. Fully admitting you can’t be arsed to consider anyone else’s opinion but vomiting your own on the screen anyway.
And can you please explain this laughable assumption that “everyone is out to get you?” If that were true, no helmet or roadcraft would help. So what’s the point?
Makes more sense for car
Makes more sense for car occupants and pedestrian to wear helmets, see chart:
http://road.cc/sites/default/files/imagecache/galleria_1200/images/News/Long-term%20casualty%20trends.png
@John Stevenson – to respond
@John Stevenson – to respond to a couple of points you’ve made in reply to me –
The point about why helmet manufacturers haven’t been sued – you omitted the context which was @Ush suggesting helmets act as a lever on the spine, and by implication this makes them more dangerous than not wearing one at all. Sorry, but I do not think this is true. If it was, manufacturers would have been sued for millions. And they haven’t. I’m aware that manufacturers go to great lengths to put disclaimers on their helmets, but that’s not the point here
The other point you made about my assumption being wrong – that all of us want to cycle safely on the road – (because you, in fact, want separate cycling infrastructure). Well, we are on ROAD CC. It’s a forum about ROAD cycling with whom you are employed. Surely it is a safe assumption that you wasn’t to cycle on the road and do it safely.
I think you’ve made some great points, and very well argued, but at times, you and other anti-helmet campaigners are coming across as obtuse. As for accusing me of ‘just being here for the finger exercise’, well, it’s a forum. What else would you have me do? Am I to feel bad for expressing an opinion?