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Signage on private land...do they need it by law?
I have a gravel bike and regularly cycle on all sorts of trails where i live in Norfolk. I recently clashed with a rather aggressive farmer as I had somehow strayed onto his private road, which I joined from a known trail. There was no 'private' sign and there are other trails going off from all sorts of directions, so it was easy for me mistakenly wander onto his precious road. Are there any laws that state that he really should be marking his land as private? In his aggressive tone, he stated that he didn't have to but I said it would take him 2 minutes to drive in his gas guzzling 4 x 4 to drive over and put one up, then no one would go on his land.
Just seems a bit dumb that people wouldn't mark their land as private that's all, if they really didn't want others to encroach on it.
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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all you need to know here:
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/2011/08/rights-of-way/
The Ordinance Survey is very, very accurate when it comes to Public Rights of Way. If the 'trail' you were on fits the descriptions in the link above then the farmer needs to be reported, otherwise...
The local authority will have a definitive map of PRoWs somewhere on line if you really want the fully legal answer. Finding exactly where PRoWs are is a real PITA, but such is life and unfortunately you've got to assume that land is private unless stated otherwise...
Context.
I'd imagine some of the negativity comes from " I said it would take him 2 minutes to drive in his gas guzzling 4 x 4 to drive over and put one up, then no one would go on his land". My first thought was 'you city boys with your frapuccino and new toy'.
If the farmer started aggressively and the OP apologised and said he didn't know and the farmer remained aggressive then fair enough. If I'd been told I made a mistake, on the whole I would apologise and do one.
On the other hand, check with land registry or whomever if it's a right of way and if so and he's a lying twat who wants to sell it for houses, get some organised events rocking on down there!
This is an excellent example of why countries with a 'Right to Roam' are much better places than those without.
What a lot of strangely aggressive comments.
And I've just checked, it's marked as a trail on OS too....I've got no chance..
But a trail, whether on the map or the ground isn't necessarily a right of way! The two are differently identified on the map.
Sometimes there'll be a RoW that doesn't have a visible trail (e.g. through a newly-ploughed field), and there are plenty trails which aren't RoWs!
Correct. Our family are fortunate to live in the countryside and part of our driveway has a ROW, pedestrian only. There are no signs, it is up to the user to know, there have been only a few people who we have needed to educate.
They won't make that mistake again!
GOML.jpg
Probably more like this in the UK
Some interesting points, mainly on the lines of 'Matty you should be aware of where you are at all times." Only problem that I've found is that not all tracks appear to be marked on OS maps, where some have turned out to be byways/permissive paths etc. I've even resorted to openstreetmaps but with limited success (this is what got me into trouble as the track in question is clearly marked as a footpath). And I've even asked farmers whether a track I want to go on is private before actually going on it. I'm not a completely dumb f**k, I just asked about any signage laws. And I have studied all available sources for the best part of a year to make sure that I try and avoid private land.
And a sign outside my house stating that it's private is quite different to 10 tracks all shooting off in different directions, 9 of which are public and one which isn't but looks identical to the other 9. I've no wish whatsoever to go on private land, and I certainly don't want any confrontations by farmers with attitude.
I think the same issue as highlighted above applies here. You can have a footpath marked on the map when the access is private.
Open Street Map is user edited, so in case the path in question is not marked as being private access, this is something you will be able to correct yourself if you are interested in contributing. You can go to http://www.openstreetmap.org, find the path in question, click "edit" (create an account), select the path, scroll down to the access box on the left and select "private", then save. You might save someone else a similar encounter
In England and Wales the basic assumption of the trespass law is that all land is private and no access is permitted unless signed or otherwise obvious. It is a civil offence and no action can be taken if you leave the land promptly and do not return as long as you have caused no damage. They do not need to put up signs, they can as a courtesy- it seems sensible to do so if there other Public Right Of Way paths connecting to it.
Good responses to the OP. He/she is the one at fault.
Get an OS map, or its digital equivalent. Rights of way are marked on them.
Unless you are sure you are on a public right of way, then best to apologise and ask for the most direct route off the property. In my experience over the years, most private land owners are happy to point you in the right direction back to the path, some are complete arseholes who refuse to acknowledge public rights of way even when clearly marked, and occassionaly you get an outright nutjob waving a gun at you for running whilst on a public footpath, upsets his cows apparently.
Ultimately though it is your responsibility to navigate and know where you are.
I don't think there's any legal requirement for him to put up signs. But then the quid-pro-quo of that, I guess, is the fact that trespass is not (outside of Buckingham palace and a few military sites etc, since that guy wandered into the Queen's bedroom and they introduced a new law) a criminal offence.
You can't be arrested for it, and I guess (not a lawyer!) if nobody actually tells you to leave you aren't technically committing any offense.
You can accidentally wander onto his property, and all he can do is ask you to leave if he happens to catch you doing so. I suppose it only becomes a legal issue if you then refuse to do so?
Though, what's the legal situation if you go back another day to somewhere he previously told you to leave? Does the previous request still apply?
Hmm, another question is, what would be the score if, having 'accidentally' trespassed, you injured yourself on something on his private land because it wasn't safe? I _think_ you'd still be able to sue him, for the same reason why it's not allowed for home-owners to install mantraps for burglars.
Anyway, we pay to keep most farmers in business, so it's all our land in any case.
If you refuse to leave then a landowner is entitled to use 'reasonable' force. What is reasonable is difficult to judge and ultimately might come down to the decision of a magistrate or jury. Asking politely then theatening a quick slap round the chops might be ok but waving a machete in the face of a trespasser is unlikely to be viewed favourably.
Answer on the injiry question is that it depends. If the OP just tripped and fell under his own steam then there would be no actionable case. If the farmer had decided to plant land mines, then yes. Unless of course the landowner had taken reasonable steps to both warn trespassers and prevent their access e.g. big signs, flashing lights, barbed wire, padlocks etc. A previous verbal warning could be taken as contributory negligence on the part of the trespasser. Most household insurance includes provisions for this e.g. if someone walked up to your front door and tripped on a loose paving slab.
So in summary, be reasonable, polite and if you're off the correct path then apologise sweetly and don't get drawn into verbal abuse!
It's actually up to you to ensure you're allowed to be where you are. After all, you don't just wander through any gate or door you see along the high street, do you? It may seem odd to you, but that is simply what it amounts to. Just because it's 'rural' doesn't make it any less private property than your back yard or front lounge.
Take your question to it's full conclusion: Do you have a sign on the front of your house saying "Private: Only mattydubster allowed"?
No, he doesn't - your ignorance of his property boundary is not a valid defence to trespass. There is no general right to roam in England and Wales unless areas are specifically marked as open access. Note that tresspass is a civil rather than criminal matter so trespassers cannot be 'prosecuted' as the old cliche goes.
Unfortunately you were most definitely in the wrong - the farmer can reasonably feel you should buy a map and compass to stay on the right track. Who's more dumb? The farmer being expected to pay for signage for people who can't read a map or the person who can't be bothered to stay on the right path?