[Shades]

I’m back in the office; hybrid working (60:40 home/office).  I usually cycle (17 miles each way) or do a drive/cycle combo (close enough to the office to avoid the traffic and cycle in normal clothes without getting sweaty) if the weather is a bit inclement (or winter).  Bike park at work (many 1000s work at my site) is pretty empty (OK, people are working flexibly) but the traffic queues are almost back to pre-pandemic levels in places.  Junior staff in the office, on the lower salaries, wailing about the petrol price increases, which must be around 20%, yet they keep on paying.  Some people haven’t got a choice, granted, but running the sums, cost of driving must be comparable to the bus or train; or dig a bike out and it cost sweet FA!

I wish Chris Boardman the best luck in the world, but when people are doggedly happy to empty their bank accounts to keep driving you have to wonder.

Topic

[Anonymous]

I agree with what you say.
I agree with what you say. Just going by things I’ve read people don’t seem to want to give up cars and blame it on public transport being costly, unreliable, not regular enough blah blah.

Personally I think it would take a multipronged attack on private cars to get people to not use them. Petrol needs to cost more, parking should be extortionate and heavily policed, a real leap in VED prices.
As we turn to more electric cars on the road I’d like to see a pay per mile tax, where as soon as the car starts moving thats £5 added to what you have to pay. Maybe that would force some of the people i work with who drive a mile to work to actually think twice about that journey.
Unfortunately the car mobs voices are too loud to let any of these things to happen

[Philh68]

Thing is we’ve engineered car

Thing is we’ve engineered car dependency into society. It’s not that people prefer cars but that we’ve made them the convenient choice and a tool of habit. To change that is not just a matter of individuals choosing an alternative, but creating urban environments that reset the convenience.
 

A lot of it is socially conditioned. We live in a world that was designed to look like General Motors’ 1939 world fair exhibit, aided by a postwar US govt that wished to reward the big 3 for their contributions to the war effort, establish a highway network for rapid military movement, and give an economic boost by building huge amounts of suburban tract housing for returning servicemen. It’s all that 3-4 generations have known. Other countries followed suit. The distance between home and work and the amount of time they’re willing to dedicate for travel plays a big role.

 

[Rich_cb]

My issue with that approach
My issue with that approach is that if you can’t afford new tyres or brake pads you can still drive.

You’ll just be even more dangerous than normal.

If you can’t afford fuel then you’re going nowhere.

I do agree that we should find a way of including vehicle size and weight in the taxation system though.

[Rich_cb]

The alternative viewpoint is
The alternative viewpoint is that cyclists are being given additional space on trains free of charge.

If that space could be used more profitably then cyclists are effectively being subsidised.

[hawkinspeter]

JustTryingToGetFromAtoB wrote

JustTryingToGetFromAtoB wrote:

I can kind of get on board with for profit companies running transport. I can’t get on board with guaranteed profits baked in regardless of service… then bleating that you “only” get 3%* profit when the cattle have the temerity to complain about shitty service. Yes, I am bitter. It’s also why I’m staying in front of zoom at home and not going back to the office. *3% of what though you bastards, quote the amount you actually get you blood sucking leeches raaaaaaaaah

Having public transport in the hands of profiteers means that we get situations where trains are designed to maximise the numbers of paying passengers and thus relegate bicycle transport to being a metal hook in a cupboard that only works for certain styles of bikes.

If we want to reduce the number of private motor vehicles on the roads (due to congestion, pollution etc) then we need to have transport solutions that work together i.e. joined up transport. That’s unlikely to happen when buses and trains are effectively in competition with each other.

[markieteeee]

Definitely. Also there’s the

Definitely. Also there’s the discrepancy of some fares being TfL and others not necessarily, meaning capped prices don’t come into play.

[Adam Sutton]

In 20 off years of commuting

In 20 odd years of commuting by train I have seen trains in the southeast go through a number of companies, all of which have utterly screwed the customer and general tax payer over. Not to mention inflation busting rises every year, and service that is regulary cancelled and terminated mid way through a journey.

Southeastern train scandal: Govia fined £23.5m for concealing taxpayer cash in ‘appalling breach of trust’

[Adam Sutton]

Fares could do with being
Fares could do with being more transparent and simplified. Southeastern actively deter you from contactless use, it isn’t listed as the cheaper fare. With hybrid working an annual or monthly ticket isn’t worthwhile. Cycling to the first station where I can use contactless a day travel card is £26.20. The contactless fare is £16.60 total, to and from work. If I leave early and manage to go off peak the morning journey is only £4.90 from Kent to Chiswick!

[JustTryingToGetFromAtoB]

hawkinspeter wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

Rendel Harris wrote:

markieteeee wrote:

What you and Rich are discussing is kind of what happens in London. For me to take three kids into town and back in the evening would be £3.30 on the bus

We need to sort the train fares out too though, for my sister (who has MS so can’t cycle), her husband and two adult kids, who live about as far out southwest as it’s possible to get without leaving London, to visit us, a mile or so outside the CC zone, bus is impractical (three changes, two hours plus) and the train comes to £31 for the four, making driving using £2’s worth of petrol a very attractive option.

We need to seize the means of transportation. It’s bizarre that public transport is run by profit obsessed companies.

I can kind of get on board with for profit companies running transport. I can’t get on board with guaranteed profits baked in regardless of service… then bleating that you “only” get 3%* profit when the cattle have the temerity to complain about shitty service.

Yes, I am bitter. It’s also why I’m staying in front of zoom at home and not going back to the office.

*3% of what though you bastards, quote the amount you actually get you blood sucking leeches raaaaaaaaah

[Adam Sutton]

I think people also
I think people also underestimate the cost of public transport. See my other comment.

Out of curiosity I had search on auto trader. 2009 Hyundai i10 with MOT £950. Tax £30. Full comp insurance with commuting just under £250. Even with fuel and a service it’d very likely be cheaper over a year than my £4280 annual season ticket. I’ll have to buy the ticket again next year, the car will probably last out a few more with service and MOT costs probably less than £500 and recurring insurance obvs.

I think as well as cheaper public transport we need to embrace e-bikes. There seems a lot of animosity from some cyclists (dear god not a dig at people here!) But they’re key to getting less able people onto bikes. Maybe even offer a pannier rack at point of sale and encourage their use for short shopping trips.

[hawkinspeter]

Rendel Harris wrote:

markieteeee wrote:

What you and Rich are discussing is kind of what happens in London. For me to take three kids into town and back in the evening would be £3.30 on the bus

We need to sort the train fares out too though, for my sister (who has MS so can’t cycle), her husband and two adult kids, who live about as far out southwest as it’s possible to get without leaving London, to visit us, a mile or so outside the CC zone, bus is impractical (three changes, two hours plus) and the train comes to £31 for the four, making driving using £2’s worth of petrol a very attractive option.

We need to seize the means of transportation. It’s bizarre that public transport is run by profit obsessed companies.

[Rendel Harris]

markieteeee wrote:

What you and Rich are discussing is kind of what happens in London. For me to take three kids into town and back in the evening would be £3.30 on the bus

We need to sort the train fares out too though, for my sister (who has MS so can’t cycle), her husband and two adult kids, who live about as far out southwest as it’s possible to get without leaving London, to visit us, a mile or so outside the CC zone, bus is impractical (three changes, two hours plus) and the train comes to £31 for the four, making driving using £2’s worth of petrol a very attractive option.

[hawkinspeter]

Rich_cb wrote:

Rich_cb wrote:

I’d be in favour of scrapping VED, Insurance Tax and even VAT on car purchases and just loading it all on to fuel or a per mile fee charged at MOT for EVs.

How about putting the tax on tyres and brake pads as well as fuel? That should penalise heavier EVs and hopefully encourage smoother driving skills.

[markieteeee]

What you and Rich are

What you and Rich are discussing is kind of what happens in London. For me to take three kids into town and back in the evening would be £3.30 on the bus (or less if I’d used the bus earlier as the price caps).  I’ve no idea what parking would cost, never having done it,  but however much plus the congestion charge (I think currently £15) means the marginal cost of public transport is lower.  

[wtjs]

People underestimate the cost

People underestimate the cost of driving by 50% according to this paper in Nature

And this willing self-deception, and complicity with the manufacturer, is most evident in the oft-heard ‘I get X mpg’, where ‘X’ is the largest number displayed by the already absurdly optimistic trip computer when travelling downhill. 

[Author]

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